Grapple

[chomskola]

I have just started as a 3.5 DM. Looking at the grapple rules, they seem punitive towards the grappler, first, AOO against you and then possibility of losing the grapple check. What is your experience with these? are they any use to anyone who isnt a monk type character?

[holywhippet]

If anything grappling favours the standard fighter types rather than monks since it's based on BAB + strength + size modifiers and monks have only 3/4 BAB and often don't specialise in strength. Also, avoid the AoO requires either a feat or decent AC - the latter also not being something the monk is generally good with.

I'd really only suggest a grapple would be used if you are trying to take someone alive or if you are trying to stop a spell caster from getting any more spells off.

[DonEsteban]

I'm sure it can be fun to specialize on grappling. Not "optimal", maybe, but fun. Especially if
- you're Large,
- are fighting spellcasters
- have a rogue in your party (grappled opponent loses Dex)
- specialize on light weapons or unarmed strikes
Maybe not so much fun if
- you're small
- are fighting dragons or other large, strong monsters
- are fighting wights
- are fighting a party of rogues
Of course you'll want to get Improved Grapple, increase your grapple modifier and so forth. Maybe, if you plan on grappling a lot, you may want to convince your DM to use super simple grapple rules (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/advanced-rules/super-simple-grappling.html).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The biggest problem with grappling, especially at high levels, becomes size and strength modifiers. There are an awful lot of things out there that are simply too big and too strong for the party to have a chance of successfully grappling.

[lt_murgen]

The grappling rules tend to be cumbersome. The actions break down like this:

I try to grab the wizard (roll against touch AC)
As you reach for the wizard, he slashes at your arm (attack of opportunity)
OK you grabbed him (successful to hit roll)
but not with enough purchase to hold him (fail opposed grappling roll)
or yo've got a good hold on him (successful grappling roll).

Then, on the wizards turn, they can try to break free, or other actions. Then on your turn, you can try to pin, or damage, etc.

Frankly, it slows combat down, and combat is slow enough as it is.

I've made a few house-rules that speed it up:

Instead of the touch attack, I simply have the combatants roll opposed grapple rolls. The defender gets his DEX and any deflection bonuses to his grapple check on the intial round. If the attacker has improved grapple, they don't get that bonus. If a grapple is successful, the combatants are considered engaged (see below).

Once a grapple is successful, both of them default to the attackers initiative. There is only 1 opposed roll made per round. Winner moves the status up and down the chart below by 1 step:

Free (no contact with opponenet)
engaged (in contact, both can take 1 standard action e.g. spell or inflict damage. If spell, must make concentration check against opponents grapple number)
Full grapple (no other actions taken, full round spent engaged)
restrained (loser can take no actions, winner can take 1 standard action)
pinned (loser cannot move, winner can take 1 standard action or move action)
helpless (winner can coup-de-gras loser this round, or take full round action, e.g double move).

Hope that helps.

[chomskola]

ANyone have experiences with the "super simple" grapple rules above or in the posted link above? I suppose using modified rules is tricky as then when you want to find out what happens if... you have a problem.

[DonEsteban]

We're trying out the super simple rules in our campaigns, but so far it hasn't come up very often. Therefore I can't give a final judgement, but so far I like them. They basically say "you can do anything you want in a grapple, provided that you first succeed on a (free action) grapple check." One problem might be that the simplified rules tend to limit options for bad grapplers, thus disfavoring PCs (especially wizards) fighting against monsters specialized on grappling even more than the current rules.

I must say I also liked lt_murgen's approach.

[Necroticplague]

I, personally, find grappling to only be worth it you focus on it. And even then, it has the giant weakness of Freedom Of Movement.

[Adamosaur]

It's also nice to have at least a minor second combat option for a grappling-based character. There are just too many enemies that are grapple focused, too large, or are immune to it. Though, those oozes do love hugs!

[ericgrau]

I have just started as a 3.5 DM. Looking at the grapple rules, they seem punitive towards the grappler, first, AOO against you and then possibility of losing the grapple check. What is your experience with these? are they any use to anyone who isnt a monk type character?
1. Generally if you want to focus on grappling you take the improved grapple feat.
2. Even without the improved grapple feat if your AC is much higher than the AoOers melee attack bonus and your grapple modifier is much higher than its, you shouldn't hesitate to grapple it. These foes are often high offense/low defense from other abilities so trapping both yourself and it in a grapple is a good deal.
3. Monks have the advantage that they actually deal high damage in a grapple so while the foe is locked down you aren't locking yourself down too. That's something many people tend to miss: They say monks are useless at grappling since they have medium BAB instead of full BAB, when in fact anyone except a monk is trapping themself as much as the foe since they can't deal good damage in a grapple. So for them it's only good in the case of #2 above and probably not worth blowing a feat on it for something so infrequent. Other classes aren't totally lost though; if they get really good magical armor spikes they can focus on grappling. The only problem is that for normal attacks armor spikes deal less damage so you better hope that there are plenty of foes to grapple.

Psychic warriors in particular can get ridiculous grapple modifiers; somewhat broken compared to core but if your group allows it and you like grappling then be a psychic warrior armor spike grappler. Or at high levels equip another class with psionic items that provide the same abilities.

True, backup options are good for foes that are immune to grappling or are large, grappling focused AND high CR. But for large foes who aren't grappling focused you can actually keep up with enlarge person. At high levels permanency it. Or a psychic warrior with expansion and grip of iron can laugh at big foes regardless of everything else. Again even if the monster sometimes beats your checks it was not designed to grapple. You can deal damage, the monster cannot.

EDIT: There's a page for grapple rules in the cheat sheets in my sig if that helps anyone.

[Roguenewb]

Its essentially impossible to grapple anything besides children and non-gish casters without improved grapple, and even then, the checks themselves may be a crapshoot without the +4. With grapple it's a very complex rule set, a good flow chart would be nice. Also, dont forget that you can replace any number of attacks in a round with grapple checks 0_o. A high level fighter (aka 3 attacks), can start a grapple, pin the opponent and deal damage in a single round.

[chomskola]

A little off-topic, but I hear you about the flow chart, I ended up condensing the entire core rulebooks into 3 very very dense flow charts to keep the basics straight in my head before a game!!!:smalleek: (DM)

[Tyndmyr]

I have just started as a 3.5 DM. Looking at the grapple rules, they seem punitive towards the grappler, first, AOO against you and then possibility of losing the grapple check. What is your experience with these? are they any use to anyone who isnt a monk type character?

Meh, most people who grapple are going to have Improved Grapple anyhow. No longer punitive. It's not really much worse than being non proficient.

[Big Fau]

The other major issue is that grappling is very much a bad option when facing multiple enemies. Grappling works best when you are able to single out the biggest threat, but it leaves you very vulnerable to the mooks.

[Gwendol]

Still, when facing a single enemy grappling can be an efficient way of ending the encounter with very liitle risk for anyone but the grappler.

[prufock]

AOO against you and then possibility of losing the grapple check
As a simulation of reality, this is understandable. You're going to try to grapple someone who is holding a sword?
In game terms, the AoO is probably unnecessary, and any build that focuses on grappling is going to pick up Improved Grapple somewhere anyway. It's a bit of a feat tax... for an underpowered mode of attack.


are they any use to anyone who isnt a monk type character?
Barbarians make good grapplers, in my experience. High strength, which often does more for your damage than higher damage dice that you get from monk. There are other ways to increase your damage anyway. Though that first level 1d6 for monks IS enticing, in the long run monks aren't necessarily the best grapplers.


What is your experience with these?
Honestly, it's a pretty fun tactic in some senses, even if it isn't optimal. Depending on your feat/class choices there are different sorts of abilities you can grab. It definitely gets less useful as the campaign power level increases. Once wizards are popping off dimension door and freedom of movement it loses some of its lustre.

There are so so so many ways to negate a grapple at later levels that it just isn't fair, but from levels 1-4 it can be great, from levels 5-8 it can still be useful. After level 8 I'd say it starts to go downhill fast. At the very least, if you're a martial character, you will want to have other tactics available.

[Big Fau]

Still, when facing a single enemy grappling can be an efficient way of ending the encounter with very liitle risk for anyone but the grappler.

That's another issue: Grappling is binary in Party VS BBEG battles. If the BBEG prepared for a grappler build, the player feels useless because his main trick is useless. If the BBEG isn't prepared for it, the rest of the party misses out on most of the fun and may resent the grappler character's player because he removes the challenge from the encounters.

[Gwendol]

Really? In my experience grappling is slow due to the limited damage dealt. The grappler will usually have to contend with keeping the opponent occupied while the rest of the party does the killing.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, grappling can deal much more damage than full-attacking melee if built right, though not as much as ubercharging. Although, that re-emphasizes how much focus is required on it, since it requires a specific PRC to do so.

[Big Fau]

Really? In my experience grappling is slow due to the limited damage dealt. The grappler will usually have to contend with keeping the opponent occupied while the rest of the party does the killing.

I'm talking about how difficult it is for the grappled creature to fight back against an optimized grappler. A Grappler Totemist can tear someone to shreds within the span of 3 rounds without the party's help, and there is very little opportunity for the victim to escape (mostly because the Totemist can pin someone 99% of the time).

[Togo]

Grapple can be used easily if you:

Have improved grapple (fighters and monks)
Have improved grab (druids in wildshape, monsters)
Have a high AC
Are grappling someone who doesn't have a melee weapon in hand (archers, spellcasters, anyone who hasn't seen you coming)

Grappling is useful mainly because it turns you into a tar baby. Your opponent, unless he is a monk, will be less capable at dealing damage while grappling than he will normally. Melee people can't use big weapons, spellcasters find it more difficult to cast spells. So will you, of course, so it's a way of nerfing an opponent's ability to act, at the expense of your own.

It's also almost the only way to take someone you can't otherwise hit. Clerics with sky-high AC due to items and buff spells can still be grappled and pinned, since grapple works off a touch attack. Same is true of enemies that can be hit, but have a DR too high for the party to practically damage them.

Finally, it's one of several ways of stopping someone from running away, or taking them down without killing them.

Honorable mention also goes to disarm, which is a great way of stripping enemies of items or spell components you don't want them to have. Monks also have the edge here, since having a hand free allows you to keep the item.

[Necroticplague]

Also, I'd just like to add that grappling is a way to turn extra movement types into an offense. Can you breath underwater? Drag those suckers down with you, that penalizes them even more, while you are o.k. with minimal investment (1 feat, either Toothed Fang or Versatile Unarmed Strike, pick whichever you want).Burrow speed that doesn't leave usable tunnel? Bury him, let him die when he runs out of air. Flight speed? Drop him out of the sky, falling damage is pretty harsh. Even better if you have Constrict or Savage Grapple so you can do damage when you win the check to move them. Also, if you're immune to fire damage (or have fire resistance greater than six), you can light yourself on fire and have that do extra damage to enemies you grapple. Other immunities could let you take advantage of different hazards, like a (half) clay golem dragging opponents into vats of acid. So i guess that ability to turn defense into offense it a stregnth of grappling.

[Invader]

Can a flying creature make a grapple and then next round fly it's base speed. Basically so it fly up and drop the creature.