Were-Murder of Crows.

[GodGoblin]

Hey guys I seem to remember seeing something a while ago about being able to combine the Lycanthrope template with a Murder of Crows (A swarm creature) RAW.

After some Googling I still cant find anything about it, have I imagined this or is my Google-fu failing me?

Was thinking a human turning into a flock of crows was cool, but then I started thinking about the Hybrid form and its creepy. If it exists id like to use it in a build for a Ravenloft game.

Thanks in advance!

[GreenSerpent]

Seconded. I want to use this.

[GodGoblin]

Actually I was searching in Bing, Ive just put in in Google and found about 6 links.

Man Bing sucks :smallsigh:

Just reading through them now and will post up whats helpful!

[Brother Oni]

Related suggestion - in the Hengyeyokai book for OWoD Werewolf, there's something similiar but instead of crows, it's spiders.

[Occasional Sage]

Related suggestion - in the Hengyeyokai book for OWoD Werewolf, there's something similiar but instead of crows, it's spiders.

Euw. EuweuweuweuwEUW. I'm glad I'm just getting up, or I'd worry about nightmares.

[Brother Oni]

Euw. EuweuweuweuwEUW. I'm glad I'm just getting up, or I'd worry about nightmares.

Just imagine the engulf attack. :smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

It could be worse.

Sounds awesomely horrifying though.

[Gorfnod]

Man Bing sucks :smallsigh:

I don't think I've ever seen anything more full of truth on these forums.

[Duke of URL]

That... is inspired. It's true, though, looking at swarms, they retain their original type and just pick up the swarm subtype. That means a swarm of animals is still an Animal, and therefore a valid creature type to use with the Lycanthrope template, as long as it satisfies:


This animal can be any predator, scavenger, or omnivore whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s size (Small, Medium, or Large for a Medium base creature).


Since a crow is a scavenger, and should be Tiny, a Small humanoid (or giant, if you can swing it), should be able to be a were-crow swarm.

Feeling a terrible urge to use this general idea against players... I'm setting up an encounter with a were-rat, but a were-rat swarm might be a lot more fun. For me.

[GodGoblin]

If the spider swarm Lycanthrope creeps you out, dont watch the Film Little Nicky...

But with the Murder of Crows I can only find standard Lycanthrope guides, anyone have any play advice on how to use them?

Or preferably a build?

[Aeryr]

Isn't a werecreature a humanoid that can turn into an animal? Isn't the murder of crows several animals? I don't think it should work.

I remember a template to turn into swarms but it was undead only and with no LA, so you couldn't be a PC.

[Answerer]

Isn't a werecreature a humanoid that can turn into an animal? Isn't the murder of crows several animals? I don't think it should work.
Nope, by the rules, a Murder of Crows is a single creature with the Swarm template. It's perfectly RAW-valid, and is both thematically awesome and, if anything, underpowered, so there's no reason to houserule it away.

It's just one of those really cool rule interactions that the designers may not have intended, but turned out better than what they might have meant.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Isn't a werecreature a humanoid that can turn into an animal? Isn't the murder of crows several animals? I don't think it should work.

I remember a template to turn into swarms but it was undead only and with no LA, so you couldn't be a PC.

Well, afaik the lycanthrope template only says that the creature has to be of the animal type, which the murder of crows satisfy, since its type is animal (swarm), so yea, you can be an lycan with a swarm form.

I've done it before with a totemist, fluffed as a mystic shaman, just for fun. I had some trouble with coming up with a good description for the hybrid, it ended with just a strange bird-man figure, but if someone has a better idea I'm all ears! It was a lot of fun to play it anyhow.

EDIT: Swordsages, ahoy!

[Gavinfoxx]

I think Murder of Crows is in Tome of Magic Maybe?

[Answerer]

It is in Tome of Magic, in the Binding section. They're associated with Malphas.

As for the hybrid form, I think I'd have the swarm itself form itself into a humanoid shape, still comprised of individual birds. Doesn't look as sensible as with smaller creatures, but it could work.

[Acanous]

reasonably certain the hybrid form would be a single, half-humanoid, half-crow, and you'd only go full swarm when full shifted.

Just from how the half-form is worded.

[2xMachina]

It is in Tome of Magic, in the Binding section. They're associated with Malphas.

As for the hybrid form, I think I'd have the swarm itself form itself into a humanoid shape, still comprised of individual birds. Doesn't look as sensible as with smaller creatures, but it could work.

Crow that walks?

[Aeryr]

You can be a lot of crows glued together in a humanoid shape.

[Answerer]

Crow that walks?
Yup, that was what I had in mind.

Or The Mummy.

[GodGoblin]

The swarm of crows suddenly flock together into a spinning flurry of talon and feather, through the chaos you catch glimpses of humanoid body parts but they soon disperse back into individual crows. As the whirlwind of birds die down you see standing before you the murder congealed into a single form, individual birds still make up its humanoid frame, the many beaks caw and the wings flap in a beserk show of force that sends feathers flying about the room as this man like figure steps towards you.

Thats how I hybrid form.

Can I see this Totemist build? How effective was it compared to the rest of the party?

[DeusMortuusEst]

The swarm of crows suddenly flock together into a spinning flurry of talon and feather, through the chaos you catch glimpses of humanoid body parts but they soon disperse back into individual crows. As the whirlwind of birds die down you see standing before you the murder congealed into a single form, individual birds still make up its humanoid frame, the many beaks caw and the wings flap in a beserk show of force that sends feathers flying about the room as this man like figure steps towards you.

Thats how I hybrid form.

Can I see this Totemist build? How effective was it compared to the rest of the party?

Thanks for that description, I might use that one day, it's one of my favorite templates just for being so cool :smallbiggrin:

As for the build, I'll have to go home and check, but I don't think that I still have it, it was a IRL campaign that ended when I moved. Still, it's possible that I have the sheet somewhere. In short I did fine, I got an ok from the DM to use a human as base, despite being to big to normally qualify. From that I just went with the standard multi-attack build. Girallon arms, sphinx claws, that roc thing wich gives you wing buffet. Don't recall feats atm, but multi-attack was in there somewhere.

The rest of the group was quite new to the game, even the DM, so despite my LA I could hold my own, the only thing that was problematic was my abysmal AC, but some buffs from the party cleric and a wand of lesser vigor took care of those issues.

[Chronos]

So that's how Soulblighter did it.

[Aeryr]

So that's how Soulblighter did it.

Those are great books. :smallcool:

[doko239]

What about a swarm of weasels? :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Isn't a werecreature a humanoid that can turn into an animal? Isn't the murder of crows several animals? I don't think it should work.

I remember a template to turn into swarms but it was undead only and with no LA, so you couldn't be a PC.

that's called swarmshifter and is in libris mortis on p124.

still useful for an NPC though. undead swarm of crows.

[Duke of URL]

No reason you can't make a swarm of weasels.

Side note -- I've reverse-engineered a swarm template from the SRD swarms (excluding hellwasps, as I couldn't really find an appropriate base creature):

Swarms are very large groups of tiny, diminutive, or fine creatures who act in concert rather than as individual entities.

They generally act with the same level of intelligence as their component creatures (often animals or vermin), but intelligent creatures can act with a hive mind mentality as if they were a single creature with a single purpose.

By the template definition, a swarm has the same hit dice as the base creature (minimum 1), but swarmsare typically advanced by hit dice beyond that minimum.

CREATING A SWARM

“Swarm” is an acquired template that can be added to any creature of size tiny, diminutive, or fine (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Size and Type: The creature gains the (Swarm) subtype. Its size does not change, but it occupies a 10' space with no reach.

Hit Dice: d8, as many as the base creature (minimum 1).

Speed: As the base creature.

Armor Class: As the base creature.

Base Attack Bonus: Medium (+3 per 4 HD)

Attacks: A swarm loses all of the attacks of the base creature. Instead, it gains:

Swarm Attack: Swarms do not make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm’s statistics block has “swarm” in the Attack and Full Attack entries, with no attack bonus given.

Swarms do not threaten creatures in their square, and do not make attacks of opportunity with their swarm attack.

Damage: The amount of damage a swarm deals with its Swarm attack is based on its Hit Dice, as descirbed in the Swarm subtype entry.

A swarm’s attacks are nonmagical, unless the base creature's natural or unarmed strike attacks are magical. Damage reduction sufficient to reduce a swarm attack’s damage to 0, being incorporeal, and other special abilities usually give a creature immunity (or at least resistance) to damage from a swarm.

Special Attacks: A swarm retains all of the base creature’s special attacks. Special attacks that depend on the base creature's natural or unarmed strike attacks instead apply to the swarm's Swarm attack (e.g., a poison bite attack would instead add the poison effect to the Swarm attack). A swarm gains the following special attack:

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to a swarm’s damage that begins its turn with a swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 swarm’s HD + swarm’s Con modifier) negates the effect. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Concentration check.

Special Qualities: A swarm retains the special qualities of the base creature and gains the Swarm subtype traits (such as immunity to or reduced damage from weapons, vulnerability to area effects, and immunity to most targeted spells; see the Swarm subtype description for full details)

Saves: As the base creature.

Abilities: As the base creature.

Skills: As the base creature.

Feats: As the base creature

Environment: As the base creature.

Organization: Solitary or multiple (2-4).

Challenge Rating: As the base creature (minimum 1) plus 1 per 3 HD.

Treasure: As the base creature (usually none).

Alignment: As the base creature.

Advancement: By hit die.

Level Adjustment: —.

[Telonius]

Bit of google-fu (crow lycanthropy swarm) gave me this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870770/The_Handbook_of_Lycanthropes?pg=6)link.


Did you know: You can use Swarms for Lycanthropy? Murder of Crows (ToM) works wonders for this purpose.

... and here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398):

(Under spoilers The Animal Within - Tiny)

• 4 HD
o Swarm, Murder of Crows (ToM); Str -8, Dex +4; Alertness, Improved Initiative; Blinding, Distraction, half-damage from slashing and piercing, swarm traits

Brief discussion here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3337.20)as well.

[Namfuak]

A lycanthrope drow/swarm of spiders Arachnomancer could be a cool character too, if way underpowered due to LA.

[Ravens_cry]

A lycanthrope drow/swarm of spiders Arachnomancer could be a cool character too, if way underpowered due to LA.

It would be great as an NPC, as you can bump up its levels until it's actually a threat rather than just going for what is mechanically the 'right' CR.

[doko239]

Spider Swarm is Vermin, not Animal, wouldn't that preclude Lycanthropy?

[Ravens_cry]

Spider Swarm is Vermin, not Animal, wouldn't that preclude Lycanthropy?
Welcome to the wonderful world of Entomanothropy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a).:smallamused:

[Namfuak]

Spider Swarm is Vermin, not Animal, wouldn't that preclude Lycanthropy?

There are rules for vermin lycanthropes:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a

EDIT: Swordsaged!

[arixe]

you could do lord of flys prestige class ( not 100% on the name) its in the savage species it gives you swarm shape. theres a swarm of bats so i dont think crows are out of the question. that sounds a lot like what your talking about.

[Hylas]

Did you know? Birds have a sufficiently different physiology to mammals, making them immune to rabies.

Of course I learned that while discussing the real-life possibilities of were-ravens. So I must protest that were-crows aren't possible in your fantasy world of magic! Please correct all errors in this thread. Thank you.

[Akal Saris]

Well, looks like Hylas has this one wrapped up, guys. Back to the drawing board.

:smalltongue:

[doko239]

Did you know? Birds have a sufficiently different physiology to mammals, making them immune to rabies.

Of course I learned that while discussing the real-life possibilities of were-ravens. So I must protest that were-crows aren't possible in your fantasy world of magic! Please correct all errors in this thread. Thank you.

You are, of course, aware that while Lycanthropy and Rabies share some superficial characteristics, such as transmission vector, they are in fact separate diseases and thus are not subject to the same immunities?

[Chess435]

You are, of course, aware that while Lycanthropy and Rabies share some superficial characteristics, such as transmission vector, they are in fact separate diseases and thus are not subject to the same immunities?

You are aware that on these forums, the color blue has nothing to do with sarcasm? :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

You are aware that on these forums, the color blue has nothing to do with sarcasm? :smalltongue:
Are you aware that the colour blue is at best an arbitrary choice to denote sarcasm and at worst counter-intuitive?

[Invader]

Those are great books. :smallcool:

One of my favorite series.

[Hylas]

Are you aware that the colour blue is at best an arbitrary choice to denote sarcasm and at worst counter-intuitive? This is true, but you gotta work with what you have.

[Ravens_cry]

This is true, but you gotta work with what you have.
A much more clear, in my opinion, method is using faux-HTML tags.
<sarcasm>Though that might be too subtle</sarcasm>

[Namfuak]

A much more clear, in my opinion, method is using faux-HTML tags.
<sarcasm>Though that might be too subtle</sarcasm>

I THINK WE SHOULD JUST CAPITALIZE SARCASM. AND MAKE IT YELLOW.

[Ravens_cry]

I THINK WE SHOULD JUST CAPITALIZE SARCASM. AND MAKE IT YELLOW.
That's both 'shouting' and hard on the eyes.
<sarcasm> But please, go ahead.</sarcasm>

[Hylas]

I'm glad we were able to stay on topic.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm glad we were able to stay on topic.
<sarcasm> Yes, because there was so much more to add to the conversation, so many unresolved questions.</sarcasm>

[Starbuck_II]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Entomanothropy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a).:smallamused:

Actually, if you read said template it says no Swarms, unlike the animal version. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, if you read said template it says no Swarms, unlike the animal version. :smalltongue:
I have but must have missed that. Dang, that's not *half* as creepy.:smallfrown:

[doko239]

That's ok, you can be a Lycanthropic Swarm of Monkeys!

Combine to form...

MONKEYTRON!!!

[Greyfeld85]

Personally, I don't think it would be fair to limit a swarm lycanthropy based on size. Even though the individual creatures are Tiny or smaller, they still take up 10' of space, making it essentially the size of a Large creature. It seems to me that there shouldn't be anything wrong, balance-wise, with houseruling that swarm lycanthropy can be inherited even by Medium or Large creatures.

[doko239]

Personally, I don't think it would be fair to limit a swarm lycanthropy based on size. Even though the individual creatures are Tiny or smaller, they still take up 10' of space, making it essentially the size of a Large creature. It seems to me that there shouldn't be anything wrong, balance-wise, with houseruling that swarm lycanthropy can be inherited even by Medium or Large creatures.

Medium-sized swarms are possible, I believe.

[Ravens_cry]

Personally, I don't think it would be fair to limit a swarm lycanthropy based on size. Even though the individual creatures are Tiny or smaller, they still take up 10' of space, making it essentially the size of a Large creature. It seems to me that there shouldn't be anything wrong, balance-wise, with houseruling that swarm lycanthropy can be inherited even by Medium or Large creatures.
That makes a lot of sense. The rules mostly treat the Swarm as a single creature, so it seems logical to base what size a Lycanthrope can be on the total size.
I am Ravens Cry and I approve of this houserule.
:smallbiggrin:

[2xMachina]

Personally, I don't think it would be fair to limit a swarm lycanthropy based on size. Even though the individual creatures are Tiny or smaller, they still take up 10' of space, making it essentially the size of a Large creature. It seems to me that there shouldn't be anything wrong, balance-wise, with houseruling that swarm lycanthropy can be inherited even by Medium or Large creatures.

So... cheap Worm that walks?

EDIT: Heh, could be fun to throw at low lvl PCs. Metagamers will go: Oh ****, Worm that Walks, when it's just a worm swarm lycanthrope.

[DeusMortuusEst]

That makes a lot of sense. The rules mostly treat the Swarm as a single creature, so it seems logical to base what size a Lycanthrope can be on the total size.
I am Ravens Cry and I approve of this houserule.
:smallbiggrin:

That is certainly an interesting idea, but really, think about how powerful such a character would be! No sane DM would ever allow that!

[Crasical]

It's more interesting to me personally that -any- animal is valid for a lycanthrope, as long as it's within one size category of the humanoid with the disease. If your DM is lenient enough to let a lycanthrope Goliath or Half-Giant count as large and qualify for a Huge creature, it's possible to be a were-tyrannosaurus.

[DeusMortuusEst]

It's more interesting to me personally that -any- animal is valid for a lycanthrope, as long as it's within one size category of the humanoid with the disease. If your DM is lenient enough to let a lycanthrope Goliath or Half-Giant count as large and qualify for a Huge creature, it's possible to be a were-tyrannosaurus.

Be-were the giants! :smalltongue:

Awesome hybrid form though, tiny tiny arms with claws and the largest mouth ever!

[IncoherentEssay]

I used this for a Fey noble that i kitbashed together from templates. Swarmlycanthropes do have the annoying problem of having horrible STR in hybrid form, which i would houserule away.

As for qualifying for the template, i'd be inclined to stick with going by base creature size, primarily for the shenanigans with the Mob pseudo-template from DMG II.

You are now 48 monkeys. That's quite a few barrels.

(You can still have swarming hijinks if you use spells to shrink down and use rituals from Savage Species to grab the template. At least i think it works, not particularly familiar with the exact workings of the rules for it.)

[Morph Bark]

It's more interesting to me personally that -any- animal is valid for a lycanthrope, as long as it's within one size category of the humanoid with the disease. If your DM is lenient enough to let a lycanthrope Goliath or Half-Giant count as large and qualify for a Huge creature, it's possible to be a were-tyrannosaurus.

Better: were-battletitan. :smallamused:

[Rubik]

WereMobOfBattletitans?

[Aeryr]

AntrophomorficBattletitan WereMobOfBattletitans :smallcool:

[erikun]

Related suggestion - in the Hengyeyokai book for OWoD Werewolf, there's something similiar but instead of crows, it's spiders.
They're in nWoD as well. The book is called Changing Breeds (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13545.phtml), and while it is a core-WoD book, it does still reference Werewolf for how certain breeds use magic.


Medium-sized swarms are possible, I believe.
You fool, do you realize what you have done?!
You've just introduced the possibility of a WereSwarmofBears!


AntrophomorficBattletitan WereMobOfBattletitans :smallcool:
I would play an antrophomorfic gorilla that turns into a swarm of small monkeys. :smallbiggrin:

[Rubik]

What about an anthrobear druid that bursts into bears that all turn into bigger bears that summon more bears?

[Aeryr]

seems unbearable... give it a bear mount.

[Snowbluff]

Way broken. IIRC the template would be a buy-offable +2 LA. Crows = Ravens for the purpose of animalness, so they have claw attacks and can speak. Gloves of Man your tiny little claws or Still spell... and your a Spellcaster with swarm immunities. Or just take Surrogate Spellcasting with any Swarm Lycanthropy.

Dread Necro for awesome flavory goodness. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

I used this for a Fey noble that i kitbashed together from templates. Swarmlycanthropes do have the annoying problem of having horrible STR in hybrid form, which i would houserule away.

As for qualifying for the template, i'd be inclined to stick with going by base creature size, primarily for the shenanigans with the Mob pseudo-template from DMG II.

You are now 48 monkeys. That's quite a few barrels.

(You can still have swarming hijinks if you use spells to shrink down and use rituals from Savage Species to grab the template. At least i think it works, not particularly familiar with the exact workings of the rules for it.)

Actually, it says you get the ability bonus to stats not the modifiers.
"In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below"

Now, improve means not a penalty to me. Unless that part of the template is flavor text.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm

[Answerer]

The Lycanthropes As Characters section does specify that "physical abilities are increased by the animal form’s ability modifiers" (emphasis mine). Still, it does say "modifiers," not "bonuses," and doesn't say "minimum zero" or any such thing, so one could make an argument that an increase of a negative amount is the same as a decrease...

[Venger]

That's ok, you can be a Lycanthropic Swarm of Monkeys!

Combine to form...

MONKEYTRON!!!

lol, just like the beginning of dresden files 6, where he's having a random encounter with demon monkeys that combine into monkey voltron.

[doko239]

The Lycanthropes As Characters section does specify that "physical abilities are increased by the animal form’s ability modifiers" (emphasis mine). Still, it does say "modifiers," not "bonuses," and doesn't say "minimum zero" or any such thing, so one could make an argument that an increase of a negative amount is the same as a decrease...

Dunno if it's the same for 3.5, but from Pathfinder SRD:


Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the base creature's stats, a lycanthrope's ability scores change when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are unchanged from the base creature's form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.

[Answerer]

That clause does not appear in the 3.5 version, as far as I can tell.

[doko239]

From d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm):


Abilities: All lycanthropes gain +2 to Wisdom. In addition, when in animal form, a lycanthrope’s physical ability scores improve according to its kind, as set out in the table below. These adjustments are equal to the animal’s normal ability scores –10 or –11. A lycanthrope in hybrid form modifies its physical ability scores by the same amount.

In addition, a lycanthrope may also gain an additional ability score increase by virtue of its extra Hit Dice.

So it looks like you'd take a pretty massive hit to Str in hybrid or animal form in 3.5, since most swarms have a Str of 1.

Pathfinder would be far more abusable.

[Answerer]

It still uses the word "improves" which is ambiguous, however.

[Dr_S]

It still uses the word "improves" which is ambiguous, however.

especially since the accompanying table doesn't have any examples with a negative modifier... I actually wondered this, before my group switched to Pathfinder, I was going to make a Halfling Werehawk

[doko239]

I would interpret it as an untyped bonus or penalty.

[Hylas]

Medium-sized swarms are possible, I believe.
You fool, do you realize what you have done?!
You've just introduced the possibility of a WereSwarmofBears!

I just thought of "swarm of ninjas."

Add your favorite were-animal for fun.

[Ravens_cry]

I just thought of "swarm of ninjas."

Add your favorite were-animal for fun.
No! Ninja Swarms are always weaker than a single Ninja!:smalleek:

[Starbuck_II]

No! Ninja Swarms are always weaker than a single Ninja!:smalleek:

What about a WereMuderofCrow Pathfindeer Ninja?
Do you get sneak attack from a swarm attack? Or does it not get the bonus?

[TuggyNE]

What about a WereMuderofCrow Pathfindeer Ninja?
Do you get sneak attack from a swarm attack? Or does it not get the bonus?

Since swarm attacks don't make attack rolls....

[Ravens_cry]

Since swarm attacks don't make attack rolls....
So no then. Which fits the trope perfectly, ninja in bunches get busted.

[hex0]

http://www.popscreen.com/assets/thumbs/v/original/3627941wnw_o.jpg

The Dark Man approves of this thread.