[3.5]Who has the best spell list: Druid or Cleric? [Archive]

Gandariel

2012-05-11, 01:13 PM

Well, simple question.
i'm not an expert, but in a thematic sense i've always thought of the Druid spell list as weaker than the Cleric's one, since the druid has so many other features.

But i'm sure there's a lot of people here who is way more expert than me and can give me some actual facts =)
So can the Playground enlighten me on the question?

And also, since i'm sure not all of you would agree on one part, i think a good measurement of "best spell list" would be making a list of the 5 best spells for each of them for each level, and compare them. (You can't just say "cleric gets gate, chaingates solars and wins". Not all games reach that level, and that's a stupid idea anyway)

Domain spells are all OK, but remember that a Cleric can only pick two, and he will likely pick domains which are overall useful:
For example, say a Domain has an AMAZING 5th level domain spell, and useless stuff in all other levels, and a bad domain ability. No cleric would pick that (But on the other hand, not all clerics pick Planning and Undeath).

DMM should be considered, since it's an active part of spellcasting.
all prcs (except for Planar Shepherd) are okay.

So, what are your ideas?

P.S: Side question:
I'm currently DMing a game, and one of my friends is playing a Druid.
I use a RAMS(Rules as Make Sense) approach to D&D, and so i ruled that Entangle works only on natural terrains where actual vegetation can be found (so NO stone dungeons or buildings)
Do you guys do the same? Should i allow it to work everywhere?

Vladislav

2012-05-11, 01:19 PM

Not touching the "Spiderman vs. Batman" argument with a 10' pole :smallsmile:

With respect to Entangle, I rule the same. Some people claim Entangle works anywhere if you just carry a potted plant with you. I claim those people will get slapped if they try it in my game.

Aegis013

2012-05-11, 01:22 PM

*snip*
Domain spells are all OK, but remember that a Cleric can only pick two, and he will likely pick domains which are overall useful:
For example, say a Domain has an AMAZING 5th level domain spell, and useless stuff in all other levels, and a bad domain ability. No cleric would pick that (But on the other hand, not all clerics pick Planning and Undeath).
*snip*
P.S: Side question:
I'm currently DMing a game, and one of my friends is playing a Druid.
I use a RAMS(Rules as Make Sense) approach to D&D, and so i ruled that Entangle works only on natural terrains where actual vegetation can be found (so NO stone dungeons or buildings)
Do you guys do the same? Should i allow it to work everywhere?

Things like Anyspell might tip the balance in Cleric's favor, since it opens up quite a number of options.

That's not an unreasonable thing to do with the entangle. I wouldn't bother worrying about it unless you think it will be a problem in your game, but that's my opinion. Having lots of houserules to make things make sense occasionally gets cumbersome trying to remember/track them all.

Righteous Doggy

2012-05-11, 01:25 PM

Well, Domains are just examples of what you can do, you can really build your own around what you want your character to be... I like Clerics best myself. Lots of ways to drag other peoples good spells into your list.

About the Entagle, why do yyou take away a druids CC in dungeons? next thing you know mages polymorph only works in open fields and shamans won't be allowed any CC! Its magic darn it, who cares where it comes from! Earth is all around us.

Spuddles

2012-05-11, 01:26 PM

I think druid casting is better, especially when you consider it in the context of the druid chassis. Cleric spells tend to be mostly buffs, which aren't that cool. Using spell slots to pretend to be a fighter is like 3rd rate casting. A druid comes with animal companion and wildshape, so there isn't as Much buff dependence, or wasting actions on casting buffs.

Druid spells, in terms of utility and coolness are a lot closer to wizard spells. They get some of the best battlefield control in the game, for instance. And messing with nature lets you level cities, etc. They also get shapechange, which is about as good as Gate. Maybe better. No miracle, but meh.

Cleric domains are about the only things, imo, that can even thr playing field. Animal and Spell and Travel are all really good.

Greenbound summoning is AMAZING. For at least the first quarter of the game, a greenbound summon is almost as good a battlefield controller as a wizard and as nearly as tanky as a raging barbarian.

Righteous Doggy

2012-05-11, 01:27 PM

Maphreal

2012-05-11, 01:37 PM

About the Entagle, why do yyou take away a druids CC in dungeons? next thing you know mages polymorph only works in open fields and shamans won't be allowed any CC! Its magic darn it, who cares where it comes from! Earth is all around us.

For the same reason any other class isn't useful in every situation (in my games). I've found some minor nerfs to the T1/T2 classes like this, coupled with some major buffs to lower tier classes such as on-the-fly feat swapping, makes for a more (but still not totally) balanced game.

Spuddles

2012-05-11, 01:37 PM

Would it be wrong to point out a DMM persist Cleric is possibly better than a fighter with Divine Power?

I'd say it's not right. While buffs can get you to be as melee capable as a fighter in hit and damage, you aren't likely to have improved knockdown, cleave, power attack, pounce, or shock trooper.

A cleric is more useful because deathward, etc. but in terms of pure melee badassery, it takes a hell of a lot of resources to match an optimized melee type. Really, all a peristent divine power gets you is the ability to compete with an npc warrior wearing a belt of giant strength. If nightstick abuse is avaible; go wild. Otherwise, I don't see more than a few persisted spells being up, which means more rounds wasted on buffig just so you can hit something. Hitting things in combat a druid does much better- (greenbound) summoning, animal companion, and wildshape (wildshape by itself will get you killed, though).

A caster's real power is the ridiculous game breaking magic it gets, and druids come with nearly as much as wizards. Clerics can pick it up, but that's domain dependent.

Righteous Doggy

2012-05-11, 01:43 PM

For the same reason any other class isn't useful in every situation (in my games). I've found some minor nerfs to the T1/T2 classes like this, coupled with some major buffs to lower tier classes such as on-the-fly feat swapping, makes for a more (but still not totally) balanced game.

Actually it was a reference to warcraft. CC can be uber important and for some reason they had the bright idea of logic>Fun in video games and did the same thing. I prefer the ridiculous idea of roots popping out of the wood works/stones and just causing hilarity and carnage. Mind you my favorite spell is black tentacles for so many reasons....

And meh, optomized characters are not the same as a caster with a single spell. Was making a jab at tiers >.>.

Spuddles

2012-05-11, 01:49 PM

KotG was using a conjuration effect. DnD entangle is a transmutation effect.

Fyermind

2012-05-11, 01:49 PM

They fill very different roles best. A cleric who tries to be a battlefield controller will be owned by a druid regularly. A druid who tries to be a diviner or medic (ugh) will always be inferior to a cleric.

Other points to mention:
DMM:persist favors buffing for clerics allowing them to become super soldiers

SNA with greenbound and ashbound and augmented summoning (the same feat tax as extend spell, persist spell, extra turning, and DMM) makes a druids summons more powerful than any party member through level 5+

Druids are generally better at replacing a wizard for battlefield control while maintaining another role in combat and make better scouts. All of this is supported by their spell list. Druids get nice buffs too (Mass Snakes Swiftness at level 2? Don't mind if I do) and a few direct damage spells.

Cleric spells tend to be more limited, though as mentioned, miracle, gate, anyspell, greater anyspell, and Summon Monster all help alleviate those issues.

Other class features:
Domains make clerics a much more front-loaded class while druids start to come into their own around level 8 when they can be in wild shape all day.

Personally I prefer druids as a player, because they give me more options and can fill more roles at once. As a DM I use clerics instead of fighters because they can afford to burn all their spells on one fight, and buff themselves to high hell and back while keeping a few magical tricks up their sleeves.

Gandariel

2012-05-11, 01:52 PM

Vladislav

2012-05-11, 01:55 PM

The power of a spell depends on context. For example, Divine Power is only good because it belongs to a class that can Persist it. Give it to the Druid, and it becomes not as powerful. You can't compare these things in vacuum.

Gwendol

2012-05-11, 01:57 PM

Not sure what the difference is between changing into an animal and charging into melee vs persisting self-buffs and charging into melee?
In general, the druids have better battlefield control, while the cleric has spells vs otherwordly creatures and undead. That's my experience at least.
Also druids get good offensive spells early on, while the cleric has to wait a few levels.

Gandariel

2012-05-11, 01:57 PM

in fact, i'm considering DMM, PrCs, the fact that spells can be applied on your wildshape form AND your pet, and everything else.

BUT, the point of the discussion is who has the best SPELL LIST (relatively to their ability)

Spuddles

2012-05-11, 01:58 PM

i think the discussion is going on the wrong way;

I didn't mean to compare the two classes, i meant only the spell lists.

What are the best [class]-only spells? i can think of awaken, Divine power, Entangle..

I thought you meant spell lists in the context of the class. In that case, druid spell list is better, as it is more well rounded. And for the levels I play at, Greenbound summoning is waaaay better than dmm persist.

CTrees

2012-05-11, 02:00 PM

The variety of "nature destroys your puny city" spells makes me like the druid spell list more. Fluff AND power aligning for beautiful destruction? Yes, yes, and also: yes.

Also, archivist. The reeses peanut butter monkey of this debate.

Invader

2012-05-11, 04:26 PM

I'm judging purely on PHB spells and I'll break it down by level and why I think one is better than the other.

Spell lvl # of spells

0 - Cleric 12 Druid 13 Both spell list are almost identical but druids get know direction and flare while Clerics get inflict minor wounds So Druid wins but only slightly.

1 - Cleric 25 Druid 20 Fear, doom, and death watch push clerics over druids

2 - Cleric 32 Druid 26 Druids get more of the stat buff spells level and flaming sphere but clerics cure/inflict mod, hold person, shield other, silence. Based on the spells I've used most I'm going to give it to the druid mainly for flame sphere.

3 - Cleric 31 Druid 22 - Cleric get cure/inflict serious wounds and searing light vs druids call lightning. This was tough but touch attacks hit more often so damage wise cleric is better, talk with dead>talk with plants, and clerics get dispel magic giving them the edge.

4 - Cleric 23 Druid 17 Clerics get cure/inflict critical but druids get flame strike, hail storm, and reincarnate! Druids win

5 - Cleric 24 Druid 19 Clerics get cure/inflict light wounds mass, plane shift, raise dead, slay living (The first save or die spell), true seeing, righteous might and commune druids get call lightning storm, wall of fire, wall of thorns, and stone skin. I think clerics really start getting more utility here so I give it to clerics.

6- Cleric 23 Druid 18 Clerics Harm/Heal, Planar Ally, Cure/cause mod slam the Druids liveoak

7 - Cleric 18 Druid 13 Clerics cure/inflict serious mass, resurrection, greater restoration, and 4 save or die spells Druids get firestorm and not a whole lot else clerics don't have so clerics get anther one.

8 - Cleric 17 Druid 11 This is tough because I want to give it to the druid just for reverse gravity but clerics get great planar ally, antimagic field, cure/inflict critical mass, and create greater undead. Should be noted that druids also have animal shapes which can be very useful.

9 Cleric 11 Druid 10 Every cleric spell on this list is pretty amazing and pretty much trump anything the druid gets at this level

I purposely left out all summon monster and summon natures ally spells since they basically rule each other out.

So through normal spell progression clerics get 216 spells, druids get 169. I'd say druids get better spells at 0, 2, and 4th level but clerics beat them everywhere else.

Based on just spells and no other abilities I think its hard to argue that druids have a better core spell list than clerics through 20 levels.

EDIT* I did add spells that both classes get but generally because one class gets it earlier than the other.

Gandariel

2012-05-11, 04:41 PM

Invader

2012-05-11, 04:58 PM

nice analysis! =)

I see you only considered Core spells though, i guess someone else can tell us something more about SpC and other books.

Even excluding the ridiculously overpowered Venomfire(or whatever it's called), druids have a lot of great spells outside core: Most notably, the Bite of X series.

And also, Flaming sphere? unless there's something i'm missing, it sucks..
1st level Druid spells trumps over Cleric ones IMO (Druid gets Lesser vigor to cure, Shilleagh, and the all-powerful Entangle!)

By itself its not game breaking although it is 2d6 at first level but at low levels you're usually fighting large groups of low level characters and combine it with entangle where monsters don't get their dex 9some DM's wont give them a reflex at all because they can't move and its deadly.

Lesser vigor isn't in the core spell list but I did miss entangle (one of my favorite spells no less lol), I was thinking they both got it at first level. This one could also easily go to the Druid but I think the end result is still the same ; )

Invader

2012-05-11, 05:00 PM

I would have tried comparing full spell list but they both get so large it gets really hard to make a comparison because for everyone good spell 1 gets the other is sure to have something awesome somewhere in some book. It felt like a futile effort lol.

molten_dragon

2012-05-11, 05:06 PM

It's kind of hard to judge them against each other, since they're focused a bit differently. Going just on gut instinct I feel like the cleric list is slightly better overall than the druid list. The difference in power and utility between the two is very small though.

Talya

2012-05-11, 07:05 PM

Invader

2012-05-11, 07:10 PM

Druid has a much better spell list. Clerics make up for it with domains, which probably more than compensates for the difference.

That said, I'd rather have wildshape and animal companion over a domain. YMMV.

Can you give examples as to why the Druids is better because I just don't see how it out preforms a clerics.

Talya

2012-05-11, 07:31 PM

The druid spell list doesn't require cheese to make it work. It's very straightforward, no major tactics or imagination even required, and perfectly complements the druid's other skills.

For example, I don't know a DM alive who would actually allow shenanigans with the planar ally line or chain gating. But summoning an Oread with SNA VI? That's not cheesy, its entirely intended. Any druid who ever memorizes earthquake missed that one. (And if cheese is really what you want, spells don't get cheesier than Shapechange. Or Liveoak treant chaining...which is significantly lower level - but like the cleric cheese, I don't know the DM that allows it.)

SNA creatures are generally more powerful than SM creatures, too.

While I realize healing is suboptimal, the druid is a better healer than the cleric, too. SNA VI gives you an average amount of healing equal to a heal spell, that can be divided among multiple people or concentrated on one, and still leaves you with a small herd of unicorns to keep fighting afterward.

Druids have so many great, overlooked spells. Admittedly, most of them aren't core...but at this point, does that matter? Who doesn't have access to ALL 3.5 material, in one form or another?

ericgrau

2012-05-11, 07:33 PM

Well my favorite spells in core:
{table]Level|Druid|Cleric
1|Entangle|Bless
2|Flaming Sphere|Shield Other
3|Sleet Storm|Prayer
4|Spike Stones|Uh...
5|Wall of Thorns|Wall of Stone
6|Antilife Shell|Heal
7|Heal|Holy Word
8|Reverse Gravity|Uh... Symbol of Insanity?
9|Shapechange|Miracle
[/table]

Generally I mean near the level when they're first avaialable; not at level 20 except for 9th level spells. Yeah there are awesome utility spells that you take later on, but I think your highest level combat spell slots are the biggest gauge of your power. I know I'll get major flak for level 4 divine power, but cleric level 4 is all utility and buffs, not instant combat domination. Ya cheesy polymorph forms could shift things farther to druid but I left them out.

Overall I'd put druids ahead in spellcasting. They have more spells that shut down entire groups of foes. Clerics get some pretty good domain powers though. That's mostly character levels 1-10. Starting at level 11 I'd say it's a tossup but probably still slightly in favor of druid because even at bad levels he can cast a lower level spell to shut down multiple foes while clerics simply don't get many of those spells until they imitate them with miracle.

Invader

2012-05-11, 07:52 PM

Gavinfoxx

2012-05-11, 07:58 PM

4th level and you didn't choose Divine Power?

JeminiZero

2012-05-11, 08:05 PM

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Animate Dead. Granted, its for evil clerics only, and it needs a bit of optimizing to work best (ALWAYS Desecrate, get Corpse Crafter if you have the feat space) the ability to have a bunch of minions BEFORE combat even starts is not to be undervalued. The Druid may be summoning Storm Elementals, but evil Cleric flies around on a Zombie Dragon.

Also surprising that nobody has mentioned: Substitute Domain spell. A few days downtime? Need Contingency (provided its one of yourDeity/Cause/Ideal's provided domains), no problem!

ericgrau

2012-05-11, 08:24 PM

I'll give you level 4 because clerics are def subpar there but word of insanity at lvl 8? There's much better spells.
Oh well it was a shot in the dark anyway. There's antimagic field and some ok buffs but nothing to go boom, foes in trouble. I suppose there are ways to abuse planar ally but like polymorph cheese I ignore such things.

Invader

2012-05-11, 08:31 PM

I love reverse gravity but its just not super effective if played by RAW, well not as effective as a lot of people think it is. Everyone thinks you cast it and everything just goes flying into the wild blue yonder but the size is actually pretty limited.

Lactantius

2012-05-11, 11:10 PM

I like both classes, but as Talya already mentioned, Druid spells mesh well with their class abilities without using too many questionable combinations.

Some things people should consider around clerics:

- domain choiced could depend on the campaign setting and be restricted. For example, the whole argument around anyspell could vanish if you are not a cleric of Mystra or the like in the FR.
And if I would sense a player who would make his patron choice dependable on domain powers only, I would recommend him to find another table for such cheese. Character background and world-compatibility first, optimization second (based on #1).

- DMM and / or persist could be banned since it undercuts the basics of D&D around action economy and which spell level you should be available to cast at which class level (no sane DM should allow DMM divine power at cleric 7, for instance).

- Mass buff dependancy.
Clerics depend much more on self buffs than druid. That said, one spell could lockdown a cleric and take them out of the game (dispel).
A druid can get hit badly, too (barkskin, bite of the X, stoneskin), but he still has natural combat abilites and can just rebuff (wildshape into another creature).

- augmented by non-core:
both classes get profit by non-core spells, feats, PrC. But still, druid gets the better stuff.
A druid is so versatile in his basic class abilites so that he could use a feat to improve his companion (companion spellbound, natural bond), his summons (augment summoning, greenbound) or just make himself another good support healer (unicorns, touch of healing reserve feat).
And don't forget: summons are spontaenously. Much more versatile than spontaenous cure (which would have a less combat importance).

- campaign setting:
if you play mostly in urban settings, the cleric makes the race.
But, in the wilderness, a Druid gets totally awesome.
He got mundane abilites (good skill list with spot / survival / listen etc), trackless step and moreover, many hardcore utility spells around nature.
He can travel (tree teleports), summon, conjure (treants for the win), he can pimp permanent summons like an evil cleric (awaken and stuff) or just use massive battlefield control (control weather, control/shape earth, trees, storms, well, just anything).

Overall, I'd say that a cleric is a nice chassis for many different class approaches. You can play an academic cleric, a mystic cleric, a warfare cleric or a priest-like cleric.

Druid works similiar. He is already a specific cleric, a nature-based cleric. In other words, a druid is nothing than a cleric with special nature-like class abilites. It progresses like a prestige class, if you look closer.

*.*.*.*

2012-05-11, 11:31 PM

- augmented by non-core:
both classes get profit by non-core spells, feats, PrC. But still, druid gets the better stuff.

I'd have to disagree, mostly due to Druids only having one prestige that advances their three pillars(spellcasting, AC, and wildshape). Clerics have many great PrCs(Dweomerkeeper, RKV, Bone Knight, etc) and loose out on nothing when PrCing. Clerics also get descent ACFs like Divine Magician. Since we are mentioning lists, I also want to put Ur-Priest cheese out there. Ur-priest makes lot's of build amazing and actually allows theurging to be efficient.

Lactantius

2012-05-12, 01:37 AM

I'd have to disagree, mostly due to Druids only having one prestige that advances their three pillars(spellcasting, AC, and wildshape). Clerics have many great PrCs(Dweomerkeeper, RKV, Bone Knight, etc) and loose out on nothing when PrCing. Clerics also get descent ACFs like Divine Magician. Since we are mentioning lists, I also want to put Ur-Priest cheese out there. Ur-priest makes lot's of build amazing and actually allows theurging to be efficient.

The whole point is:
Druids don't need any PrC in the first place.

As I said before: a Druid itself is kind of a prestige class since you get constantly new class features or growing class features (shapes, companion power) BESIDES full spellcasting and a solid chassis (HD, Saves, BAB).

A cleric meanwhile MUST prestige out to keep on track since he gets no further class features besides turn undead.

The class itself is just versatile in pure RAWness, without the need for ACFs or Prestige Classes.
A druid is a utility caster, a controller, a summoner, a scout, a tank, a supporter, a healer; he comes with a decent combat unit alongside without the need to go into deep cheeseville (dire cougar, anyone instead of a ridiculous fleshraker).

Well, the Druids are that powerful that they are limited in my rounds a bit. They must have made contact and know the creature type they want to wildshape in or summon from.
Usually, as forest druid, they have therfore no possibility to use stuff like dinosaurs or polar bears.

I even hesitate to allow greenbound since its so strong.
On the other hand, it makes things better that would normally die too fast in battle (summoned animals).
And I must admit, the fluff of GBS is great!

etrpgb

2012-05-12, 02:02 AM

With all the splatbooks I think think Cleric wins for the greater flexibility. If you are confined Druid is an easier choice.

Druid 20 is a great choice. As far as I can tell only the prc ``Planar Shepard'' actually make a druid stronger.

Anyhow... do not bother and take both: Dragonwrought Kobold Child of Eberron neutral cleric. :)

LordBlades

2012-05-12, 02:54 AM

- domain choiced could depend on the campaign setting and be restricted. For example, the whole argument around anyspell could vanish if you are not a cleric of Mystra or the like in the FR.
And if I would sense a player who would make his patron choice dependable on domain powers only, I would recommend him to find another table for such cheese. Character background and world-compatibility first, optimization second (based on #1).

Applying such restrictions to clerics but not enforcing similar ones to druids, like the RAW 'must be familiar with what you're wildshaping into' and no cheesing your bg to be familiar with best forms would be biased against clerics. Regardless, I think RP restrictions have little weight in a mechanics discussion.

DMM and / or persist could be banned since it undercuts the basics of D&D around action economy and which spell level you should be available to cast at which class level (no sane DM should allow DMM divine power at cleric 7, for instance).

Needless generalization (the 'no sane DM...' part).DMM persist is perfectly fine in high power campaigns. When a pair of fleshrakers with shared Venomfire is the average level 7 druid standard, persistent Divine Power is perfectly fine for clerics.

- Mass buff dependancy.
Clerics depend much more on self buffs than druid. That said, one spell could lockdown a cleric and take them out of the game (dispel).
A druid can get hit badly, too (barkskin, bite of the X, stoneskin), but he still has natural combat abilites and can just rebuff (wildshape into another creature).
.

It's quite trivial to push a cleric's CL in the HD+10-15 area by mid levels. Anything high enough to dispel you, can probably kill you regardless.

candycorn

2012-05-12, 04:14 AM

Druid has a much better spell list. Clerics make up for it with domains, which probably more than compensates for the difference.

That said, I'd rather have wildshape and animal companion over a domain. YMMV.

I'd rather have domains than wildshape, and I'd rather have turn undead uses (which can fuel a lot of things) than an AC.

Spuddles

2012-05-12, 04:35 AM

If a druid really wants turn undead, he just dips a prestige class or casts a spell.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Animate Dead. Granted, its for evil clerics only, and it needs a bit of optimizing to work best (ALWAYS Desecrate, get Corpse Crafter if you have the feat space) the ability to have a bunch of minions BEFORE combat even starts is not to be undervalued. The Druid may be summoning Storm Elementals, but evil Cleric flies around on a Zombie Dragon.

Also surprising that nobody has mentioned: Substitute Domain spell. A few days downtime? Need Contingency (provided its one of yourDeity/Cause/Ideal's provided domains), no problem!

I guess if you just want to light your WBL on fire....

MukkTB

2012-05-12, 04:36 AM

I'd be more inclined to say that druid/cleric dominance would probably need to be worked out on a case by case basis. We don't have any methods for comparing power levels that are so close.

Lactantius

2012-05-12, 04:43 AM

Applying such restrictions to clerics but not enforcing similar ones to druids, like the RAW 'must be familiar with what you're wildshaping into' and no cheesing your bg to be familiar with best forms would be biased against clerics. Regardless, I think RP restrictions have little weight in a mechanics discussion.

Needless generalization (the 'no sane DM...' part).DMM persist is perfectly fine in high power campaigns. When a pair of fleshrakers with shared Venomfire is the average level 7 druid standard, persistent Divine Power is perfectly fine for clerics.

It's quite trivial to push a cleric's CL in the HD+10-15 area by mid levels. Anything high enough to dispel you, can probably kill you regardless.

Sounds to me like you did not read my whole answer.
I granted that Druids do not know all creatures in the MM for their wildshape and summon useage.
The whole fleshraker/venomfire-counterargument is pointless.

And the buff-problem is not fully pointed out. A Druid can live pretty good without buffs. Not so a cleric. In fact, he is as squishy as an arcane gish if it comes to stripping off buff spells.

And yes, allowing DMM Persist has something to do with sanity. And personal style of gaming. But that's all getting onto another topic.
Just consider that a Druid does not need so much splatbook stuff like a cleric. You can go with the PHB and MM and call it a day.

Oh, and my domain restriction is not merely a RP-reason.
If you play in the forgotten realms, you may only choose the appropriate domains of your patron (see FRCS p.62 as reference).
So, all those free-picks for the most optimized domains are worthless.

Melnir

2012-05-12, 05:21 AM

Talya

2012-05-12, 05:46 AM

Once again, persisting any spell above level 3 = cheese. You can't do it without shenanigans. And even then, you use up all your feats just learning to persist a couple spells. (And you use up your "turn undead" feature in the process.)

The cleric is also under no circumstances better at melee or more durable. Just remember the druid, on a 32 point buy, has 18 wis, and 18 con. If you drop to a 26 point buy, it's likely 18 wis and 16 con. Their strength and dexterity are as good as whatever animal they are choosing to be today. Druid self-buffs are designed to augment the animal. Cleric self-buffs are designed to emulate the fighter. The cleric still needs their other ability scores to handle this ... oh, they get buffed, yes. But not nearly as far.

Yes, the thread is talking about spell lists alone, not other class features. But you have to remember what the spells are designed to do. Druids don't get righteous might and divine power, it's true. And a druid's self-buffs wouldn't be all that good if a cleric were casting them on themselves. But you have to take into account what their buffs are designed to be buffing..

(And no way would I rather have domains and turn undead than wildshape and an animal companion. A single extra spell per spell level -usually locked into two usually suboptimal choices- is not as good as a feature which *by itself* makes a class tier 3. Turn undead is not more powerful than the entire fighter class. If you really want to compare them, build a featureless class - 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die, high fort/will saves. Now, give it a couple domains. One spell per spell level, though. No bonus spells. That's it. Give a second one wildshape as per the druid. Beyond the obvious "no wildshape at levels 1-4, and only a single use per day at 5", which one ends up more useful? Similarly with turn undeaad and animal companion. If the animal companion is your only class feature, you're still better than the fighter. The same can't be said for the guy with turn undead.)

Gwendol

2012-05-12, 05:57 AM

It depends on what the purpose is with the spells. Sure, the cleric can self-buff and duke it out, but he might be better served by helping everyone else shine and become near unstoppable. In an undead heavy campaign the cleric is golden while the druid and his animals is... Struggling. It's hard to see that the spell lists are that very different power- or otherwise. Different focus and weight, sure.

LordBlades

2012-05-12, 05:58 AM

And yes, allowing DMM Persist has something to do with sanity.Your completely subjective opinion. There's some perfectly sane DMs that allow DMM persist.

Once again, persisting any spell above level 3 = cheese.

Once again, your completely subjective opinion. Stop presenting stuff like this as facts, not unless there's a RAW or RAI definition of 'cheese' somewhere.

candycorn

2012-05-12, 06:11 AM

Once again, persisting any spell above level 3 = cheese. You can't do it without shenanigans.In your opinion. It's fine to prefer non-high power games, but there is a place for DMM Persist at gaming tables.

And even then, you use up all your feats just learning to persist a couple spells. (And you use up your "turn undead" feature in the process.)And that's exactly why they're there. Not to make undead run, but to power divine feats or devotion feats. I'd call that an investment with a good return.

The cleric is also under no circumstances better at melee or more durable. Just remember the druid, on a 32 point buy, has 18 wis, and 18 con. If you drop to a 26 point buy, it's likely 18 wis and 16 con. Their strength and dexterity are as good as whatever animal they are choosing to be today.Yeah, if you start at level 5, perhaps. Otherwise, you're a very vulnerable level 1 character with that stat array. -1 to initiative checks, AC of 9 + whatever armor you use, and if it's heavier than leather armor, you're also slow too. Sure, you have 12 HP. That's one hit from a CR 1 orc with a greataxe.

Since many campaigns end by level 9-10, ignoring the first half of your adventuring career isn't always the best path for career advice.

Druid self-buffs are designed to augment the animal. Cleric self-buffs are designed to emulate the fighter. The cleric still needs their other ability scores to handle this ... oh, they get buffed, yes. But not nearly as far.But they can have better healing, AC, resistances, and still have casting to augment their abilities, while having comparable offense. The druid pulls even again with his summons, which, admittedly, are the strongest summons of any base class. But clerics pull off melee combat easier, with less spell and gold resources spent. A druid that goes into melee combat without careful planning is going to get squished, wild shape or no.

Yes, the thread is talking about spell lists alone, not other class features. But you have to remember what the spells are designed to do. Druids don't get righteous might and divine power, it's true. And a druid's self-buffs wouldn't be all that good if a cleric were casting them on themselves. But you have to take into account what their buffs are designed to be buffing..Which is an inferior melee chassis.

(And no way would I rather have domains and turn undead than wildshape and an animal companion. A single extra spell per spell level -usually locked into two usually suboptimal choices- is not as good as a feature which *by itself* makes a class tier 3.Domain abilities are what does it. That can be two bonus feats, allowing for powerful combos to be used, such as DMM Quicken or DMM Persist. They can be devotion feats, which are quite awesome with turn undead.

Turn undead is not more powerful than the entire fighter class. If you really want to compare them, build a featureless class - 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die, high fort/will saves. Now, give it a couple domains. One spell per spell level, though. No bonus spells. That's it. Give a second one wildshape as per the druid. Beyond the obvious "no wildshape at levels 1-4, and only a single use per day at 5", which one ends up more useful?Follow your own advice. Look what domains feed into. Extra feats, extra spells. Yes, your hackneyed example favors wild shape. But in a chassis where those metamagic feats can actually apply to a decent spell list? Suddenly domains become more powerful. Add on domain spontaneity, and you can get more than one casting of domain spells per day. And that turning is like a battery charge, augmenting all the other abilities.

You can take the shortsighted view, where a domain is nothing but a couple spells, and turn undead is only good for making undead run. But that's about as valid as saying wildshape is only good at assuming the form of badgers and weasels. It undercuts the power of the ability greatly.

Similarly with turn undeaad and animal companion. If the animal companion is your only class feature, you're still better than the fighter. The same can't be said for the guy with turn undead.)See above. Turn undead, without cleric casting or domains, is worse than animal companion. But look at it on the chassis, rather than in a vacuum. Follow your own advice. You do it for druid spells, considering them in the context of a character with animal forms. Do it for cleric class features, considering them in the context of synergy with other features. And there's a lot. A LOT of synergy.

Keep wild shape. No worries. But Turn Undead on a Cleric Chassis contributes more than Animal Companion on a druid chassis, any day of the week.

Talya

2012-05-12, 06:39 AM

If you're going to include DMM persist, then you're also allowing chain gating, since the two are of comparable silliness. In which case, yes, the cleric wins, after burning every tree in the world (because every tree in the world is a treant under the druid's control after casting a single level 6 spell...and the chain gating is still more powerful.) I thought we were keeping this to stuff most people can actually use and not convoluted tricks to bypass the rules with technicalities?

Which is an inferior melee chassis.

No, no it is not.

The druid's melee chasis at its base is identical to the cleric's. d8 hit die, capability of wearing full plate (druid has to work a bit harder for it, if they really want that extra +3 ac, but it's not a big deal). But that's where they divide. The druid is huge sized, has a higher con rating (due to lower MAD), higher AC (natural armor), often more attacks at higher average BAB (despite Divine Power, the druid is likely at +15/+15/+15/+15/+13 or better, as opposed to +20/+15/+10/+5) and stratospheric strength and dexterity, often aproaching god-like levels.

Then you apply righteous might and divine power to the cleric, and they're suddenly a decent large-sized NPC warrior. (No, not fighter. They didn't get any extra feats) Meanwhile, the druid has become an epic-CR monster, and is buffing that further.

Togo

2012-05-12, 06:46 AM

Druids are better at buffing themselves (largely due to wildshape) and at battlefield effects. Clerics are better at buffing and healing the rest of the party. They can both fight well.

I think the cleric has the edge on the spell list, and the druid has better powers, but that's largely because the cleric can support a greater variety of different play styles than the druid, not because individual choices are inferior.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 06:46 AM

I think the true advantage of a druid over a cleric is the spontaneously cast summon nature's ally. It's a spell that is consistently about one level above the power of summon monster, and there are very few situations where it's not useful. A character built around the ability can choose situational spells under the assumption that in a situation where those spells don't work he'll always have a pile of animal friends to fall back on. The only real issue with this argument is that like wild shape, summon nature's ally doesn't really get awesome until around 5th, but spells like entangle and kelpstrand are awesome enough to go the distance, and with a helpful dog friend guiding the way a druid is one of the better choices for a first level character. Depending on the intended upper limits of the campaign, greenbound and rashemi elemental summoning turn an effective spell list into an extremely effective one. The fact that druids basically get an all day melee buff with a high degree of versatility builds on that effectiveness.

candycorn

2012-05-12, 07:15 AM

If you're going to include DMM persist, then you're also allowing chain gating, since the two are of comparable silliness.Again, in your opinion. DMM Persist finds itself to many gaming tables, including mine. Chain Gating Solars does not. Your argument is much like saying that ordering bacon on my burger is comparably unhealthy to eating all the pigs in Lancaster County. They are many orders of magnitude different. One is gaining a select few spells to last 24 hours. The other is creating thousands of CR 23 creatures with all the casting of level 20 clerics, along with thousands of wishes and permanency effects.

I thought we were keeping this to stuff most people can actually use and not convoluted tricks to bypass the rules with technicalities?We are. Using a feat, designed to bypass the cost of a single metamagic feat, in order to... bypass the cost of a single metamagic feat... That is neither convoluted, nor a technicality. That is using a feat (DMM) for the express purpose that it is made.

Now, of course, Turn Undead is weaker, if you remove every useful ability that it can be used to power. That's like me saying that Turn undead is stronger, if druids can't use rules abuses and technicalities to take the shape of creatures with more than 4 HD.

Even with DMM Extend or DMM Quicken, Turn undead is more useful than an Animal Companion.

The druid's melee chasis at its base is identical to the cleric's. d8 hit die, capability of wearing full plate (druid has to work a bitlot harder for it, if they really want that extra +3 ac, but it's not a big deal). But that's where they divide. The druid is huge sized, has a higher con rating (due to lower MAD), higher AC (natural armor), often more attacks at higher average BAB (despite Divine Power, the druid is likely at +15/+15/+15/+15/+13 or better, as opposed to +20/+15/+10/+5) and stratospheric strength and dexterity, often aproaching god-like levels.
Let's look at level 9, when druid gets a size increase to large. Let's go with a good 8 HD form. Brown Bear.

27 Str, that's good, a +8 to hit and damage. Cleric, by comparison, has DMM Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might, and a base Str of 12. Divine Power puts it at 18, and Righteous Might gets it to 22, for a +6. That's a +6 to hit, and a +9 to damage (2 handed weapon). But wait. That Divine Power increases BAB from 6 to 9, for a net effective attack boost of +9 to hit and +9 to damage. Better than the bear. With a starting Str of 12.

Size? Both Large.

Con? Let's sat that cleric only put a 14 in Con. Divine Power gives +1 HP per caster level, getting it nice and close. Slight edge to the druid. But wait, Righteous might gives +2 Con, so that ties it right up.

AC? Druid has 15. Can't afford wilding armor yet, so wilding clasp'd hide it is. +3 goes to 18. Say it's +2 armor, brings it to 20.

Cleric has a 12 dex, large size, full plate +1, and 2 nat armor. 21 AC. Both aren't exactly power optimized there. Cleric isn't doing vestments, after all.

Bear gets 3 attacks on a full attack, to the cleric's two. Slight edge, until you factor that a large greatsword does 3d6 + 9, and those claws are 1d8. A wash again.

Then you apply righteous might and divine power to the cleric, and they're suddenly a decent large-sized NPC warrior. (No, not fighter. They didn't get any extra feats) Meanwhile, the druid has become an epic-CR monster, and is buffing that further.
No, they're not an NPC warrior, because they still have a buttload of spells. Which makes them a PC fighter+ + +. With spells.

And the druid?

Is a bear.

Talya

2012-05-12, 07:54 AM

eggynack

2012-05-12, 08:15 AM

Another issue with using persisted righteous might and divine power is that they take up spell slots and are much less versatile. At level 9, the cleric is running around with those spells that boost his combat efficiency, but wild shape has more uses than just that. Replicating each branch of the ability's power takes some amount of casting ability from the cleric. Instead of a regular ground battle, let's say that the party is fighting a flying creature. In a standard action, the druid can change into his best flight form (I like desmodu hunting bat) while the cleric has to cast another spell, if that's even one he prepared. The same goes for underwater combat(though I prefer heart of water for this) or a stealth mission. Moreover, gaining comparable melee ability to a druid cost the cleric three feats to the druid's one (natural spell obviously). Those are feats that the druid is using to do the things he's always wanted to do, and dreaming bigger dreams than the cleric ever could. Or he'll just boost summoning a bit. That's my preference.

Lactantius

2012-05-12, 08:31 AM

You cannot evaluate a core class alone on the basic condition that this class will - or definately must take - a certain array of feats and/or prestige classes. That's not they way D&D works.
So, if you want to evaculate a cleric correctly, you must stay to that what it gets at the common ground for all gaming tables. The core common ground is first and foreall the core rule (PHB, DMG and MM).

If you start to evaluate a class based on certain assumptions or required builds (like, spending all your feats for DMM), then this evaluation will not be representative and cannot be used to compare it with another base class.
It's like a benchmark - you must run the simulation under the same basic rules.

This is profoundly important if you push the line of optimization beyond a certain limit. This is a pure fact and has nothing to do with subjective opinions.
We talk about the deep rule mechanism which care for balance.
One part is that a spellcaster can only use spell effect that the caster is able to cast, actually. The ability to cast comes from level progression. Most full casters need level 7 to cast level 4, 9 for 5 and so on.
That is the most imporant premise. It may not be changed or be circumvented.
Period.

This premise is most vital for any healthy campaign and gaming group. It is countermeasured and ripped off by using a mechanic that allows us to do more that we could do normally.
We all agree that a wizard 7 should not be able to use a 9th-level spell. Or a 10th-level spell (in other words: an epic spell).
Well, flip the coin and repeat this sentence with the cleric class.
We all agree that a cleric 7 should not be able to use a 9th-level spell. Or a 10th-level-spell.
Persistant Spell is a +6 metamagic feat. Divine power is level 4, righteous might level 5. Under normal issues - as we adhere to - a cleric could not use persistant spell with divine power until he reaches epci levels because he cannot finance the 10th level spell slot (4+6).

So, the conclusion is: you use a feat/class ability combination which breaks the most basic game rule when a caster could cast which spell level.
If you think that this is okay for your group, then this is your subjective opinion. But it is definately not the way D&D has been designed to play with.

I agree with divine feats generally. Even with DMM, if it is used as it is supposed to use (considering the natural spell level limit).
So, if a player wants to use DMM (extend), he could definately do it since he could finance the metamagic modifier in the first place.

But dude. There are limits in the game.
Just because people on message boards try (and succeed) in breaking this limits, this does not mean that it is meant so, or even good for the game.

Acanous

2012-05-12, 08:44 AM

Honestly, I'm going to have to give it to the cleric here.
Cleric has more versitility. Your cleric can choose from a number of options that make even wizards get a little jealous. In any "X Cleric VS Y Druid" contest, it's going to be a legitimate battle, but the cleric could be a L/E Necromancer, a L/G Frontline combattant, a C/N Metamagic monkey... All could have different domains and vastly varied styles of approaching combat.
The Druid basically gets three things it can do; Cast Spells, Turn into a Monster, and use it's Monster companion to beat on things.

Clerics can cast spells, Use Turn Undead for like 12 different TYPES of thing (Not counting "Turn ooze, Turn Outsider" etc. I'm talking "Divine Metamagic, Divine Power" Etc.)Get two free bonus feats at first level, gain Heavy Armor Proficiency for free (If your druid is wearing dragonhide full plate, that's a 2 feat investment, or much worse, a dip which does not advance druid casting, which gives the edge to the cleric)

Finally, for this to even be a contest, you must take out a core spell which is available to the cleric and not the druid; Gate.

Now, I'm fully aware of how much cheese Gate can be. In my DnDverse, there's an order of gishes called "Gatekeepers" who eliminate knowledge of the spell, and those outside the order with the ability to cast it.
Still, it's a Core ability, and denying it to the Cleric in the context of this contest is an admission that even core only, by RAW, cleric IS better.

They are, however, both juggernaughts. I give it to cleric within the bounds of this contest based solely on the versitility of the class.

Talya

2012-05-12, 08:47 AM

Clerics can cast spells, Use Turn Undead for like 12 different TYPES of thing (Not counting "Turn ooze, Turn Outsider" etc. I'm talking "Divine Metamagic, Divine Power" Etc.)Get two free bonus feats at first level, gain Heavy Armor Proficiency for free (If your druid is wearing dragonhide full plate, that's a 2 feat investment, or much worse, a dip which does not advance druid casting, which gives the edge to the cleric)

Minor points:
The druid can get turn {insert various creatures here} with feats, and actual turn undead with items.
Also, I think you're forgetting druids already get medium armor proficiency to start. heavy armor is just a single feat cost, not two.

In general, though, I believe you are right in that a cleric can choose to fill more roles than a druid can. However, I believe the druid is better at the roles it does fill (and let's face it, the druid can fill primary caster AND melee...simultaneously.) The additional couple of skill points give the druid a bit more versatility, helping even out that a bit, but the cleric still has more tricks in its spell list. You're talking about power vs. versatility. I'd give it to the druid for power. Cleric gets versatility. Both are tier 1 (which is a measure of versatility more than power), but it's a matter of degree.

gartius

2012-05-12, 08:49 AM

Like to make a point here. We are assuming the druid takes natural spell to allow the druid to buff himself. But we are denying the cleric access to a comparable feat of DMM. does that seem fair?

Druid actually gets that at 8, but yeah. Let's look at level 15, oh, 12 headed cryohydra form, complete with it's fast healing and head regeneration... (and that's not even one of its best forms).
Again cyrohydra spending feats to make wildshape better-why are we not allowed to spend feat to use DMM?

Then you apply righteous might and divine power to the cleric, and they're suddenly a decent large-sized NPC warrior. (No, not fighter. They didn't get any extra feats) Meanwhile, the druid has become an epic-CR monster, and is buffing that further.

assuming the druid and the cleric are not minmaxing themselves by taking feats (natural spell, DMM) then the cleric will be better as the druid has to choose between wildshaping or casting-the cleric can do both.

In terms of spells i prefer the cleric spell list as it has more variety in its theme. Druids are all about nature, Clerics are about everything

eggynack

2012-05-12, 08:51 AM

That conclusion doesn't make too much sense. Most casters are unable to cast spells of a higher level than they are normally able to, but that's what feats are for. The ability to circumvent these limitations are within the grasp of any character, and this is true as the rules are written. Moreover, this sort of ability is also available to wizards, but often at a higher cost. All feats, as a rule, allow characters to do things they'd be unable to do normally. You could theoretically make the argument that "A fundamental rule of D&D is that a character can never have more hitpoints than the total roll of their hitdice plus their con mod. The game made the assumption that this rule would be followed, so the feat toughness is broken." Taking feats like DMM is the way the game was designed to be played because it was written directly into a book. Granted, they probably weren't thinking of persist when they wrote it, but reducing metamagic scores is a part of the game whether you like it or not. The rule that no character can cast a spell effectively above their caster level is no more unbreakable then the one that says that you can't reduce your attack roll to deal more damage or the one that places maximum limits on your max health.

Invader

2012-05-12, 08:53 AM

eggynack

2012-05-12, 08:57 AM

Everyone keeps talking about wildshape in this argument and its a mute point. The whole debate is who has a better spell list. Based purely on spell selection a cleric list is bigger, more varied, and has generally stronger spells.

The only test you need by comparison is to have a cleric and druid stripped of all other class abilities have a duel. The druid will not win.

I generally like to think of wildshaping as an hour/level buff that makes the druid into an animal. It replaces some quantity of a cleric's buff regimen, though the degree to which it replaces that ability is clearly open to debate. Those are spells that the cleric has to cast and the druid doesn't which makes it a relevant metric in the casting abilities of the classes. I also still think that summoning gives druids an edge in pure spell battles.

Invader

2012-05-12, 09:09 AM

I generally like to think of wildshaping as an hour/level buff that makes the druid into an animal. It replaces some quantity of a clerics buff regimen, though the degree to which it replaces that ability is clearly open to debate. Those are spells that the cleric has to cast and the druid doesn't which makes it a relevant metric in the casting abilities of the classes. I also still think that summoning gives druids an edge in pure spell battles.

The cleric just has to many ways to counter.

Antilife shell = summon animal is worthless.

Talya

2012-05-12, 09:13 AM

Everyone keeps talking about wildshape in this argument and its a mute point. The whole debate is who has a better spell list.

I've commented on this.

Wildshape needs to be brought in when talking about self-buff spells, because of what they are buffing. Most Druid self-buffs are designed specifically to augment wildshape forms, while cleric self-buffs are designed to augment armored cleric smashy forms. Without factoring in wildshape, you can't compare them fairly.

Of course, this is ignoring Owl's Insight, the single best divine-caster buff in the game. Find a way to persist that on your druid (every bit as cheesy and possible as persisting Divine Power/Righteous Might) and you've entered a whole new level of broken. Yay for an extra +10 wisdom that stacks with nearly everything else. (Yes, the druid can also cast it on the cleric, too.)

eggynack

2012-05-12, 09:21 AM

The cleric just has to many ways to counter.

Antilife shell = summon animal is worthless.

First of all, this isn't about spells and counter spells. The power level of a class can't be determined by how successfully they do in arena battles. Second of all, one of the big advantages of the druid is that they have all of these awesome summoning spells that they don't have to cast. They never end up in a situation where the cleric casts antilife shell and they can't do anything. Third of all, by that point I like to have rashemi elemental summoning, and even without it huge elementals are fantastic. Even in that case summon nature's ally is far from worthless.

Invader

2012-05-12, 09:22 AM

But you're not comparing druid buff spells to cleric buff spells you're comparing their whole spell list and which one is better.

And even if you do compare them that way you just said druid buffs are designed to be more effective with wildshape and cleric spells are better to augment armored smashy forms.

How many wildshaped druids does a party have and how many armored smashy forms does a party have. The clerics buffs spells have a broader base of characters that they're effective on. By your own argument you made clerics more effective.

*.*.*.*

2012-05-12, 09:25 AM

The cleric just has to many ways to counter.

Antilife shell = summon animal is worthless.

They are fighting one another? I didn't think this was a 'who would win in a duel' type thing. That murks the water a tad bit~

Invader

2012-05-12, 09:26 AM

First of all, this isn't about spells and counter spells. The power level of a class can't be determined by how successfully they do in arena battles. Second of all, one of the big advantages of the druid is that they have all of these awesome summoning spells that they don't have to cast. They never end up in a situation where the cleric casts antilife shell and they can't do anything. Third of all, by that point I like to have rashemi elemental summoning, and even without it huge elementals are fantastic. Even in that case summon nature's ally is far from worthless.

This is exactly about spells and counter spells. The whole discussion is about what spell list is more effective.

Rashemi elemental summoning is a feat. We're comparing spell lists not which feats make spells better.

Invader

2012-05-12, 09:28 AM

They are fighting one another? I didn't think this was a 'who would win in a duel' type thing. That murks the water a tad bit~

Even if they're not fighting I just don't see an argument for druids having better spells.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 09:28 AM

This is exactly about spells and counter spells. The whole discussion is about what spell list is more effective.

Rashemi elemental summoning is a feat. We're comparing spell lists not which feats make spells better.

You don't measure a classes effectiveness by how they do in an arena battle. If you did then a bard would be a worse class than a barbarian in most cases. Also, earth elementals do just fine against antilife shell even without the feat, and at 16 hd that's going to be my summon of choice.

Invader

2012-05-12, 09:39 AM

You don't measure a classes effectiveness by how they do in an arena battle. If you did then a bard would be a worse class than a barbarian in most cases. Also, earth elementals do just fine against antilife shell even without the feat, and at 16 hd that's going to be my summon of choice.

That was just an example of how a cleric is going to be able to counter anything a druid does and generally be more useful.

I'll see your 16HD elemental with an 18HD planar ally

eggynack

2012-05-12, 09:44 AM

That was just an example of how a cleric is going to be able to counter anything a druid does and generally be more useful.

I'll see your 16HD elemental with an 18HD planar ally

At 6th level spells you're limited to 12 hd. You'd need an 8th level spell to surpass the druid in that manner, and by that point he's tossing out 1d4+1 huge elementals. Moreover, in order to use that planar ally you need to prepare that particular spell and use it long before combat, whereas druids have it spontaneously. You have neither countered nor surpassed the druid's summoning ability. The xp cost is a bit annoying too.

mucco

2012-05-12, 09:51 AM

Well my favorite spells in core:
{table]Level|Druid|Cleric
1|Entangle|Bless
2|Flaming Sphere|Shield Other
3|Sleet Storm|Prayer
4|Spike Stones|Uh...
5|Wall of Thorns|Wall of Stone
6|Antilife Shell|Heal
7|Heal|Holy Word
8|Reverse Gravity|Uh... Symbol of Insanity?
9|Shapechange|Miracle
[/table]

This was a very very good approach to the OP, but I feel it didn't hit on all spells. I'll try to redo it, and include three spells per class and highlight the three best for each level. This should make it more comprehensive. Also, I'm going to include what I know of SC and try to pick the "high tier" spells, not just the "strong" ones. However, I will not emphasize the TO/cheesy, in my opinion, spells.

{table]Level|Druid|Cleric|Score
1|Snake's Swiftness, Entangle, Produce Flame|Bless, Resurgence, Sign|1 - 2
2|Flaming Sphere, Listening Lorecall, Mass Snake's Swiftness|Close Wounds, Divine Insight, Silence|1 - 2
3|Swift Fly, Sleet Storm, Greater Magic Fang|Invisibility Purge, Bestow Curse, Mass Aid|0 - 3
4|Spike Stones, Arc of Lightning, Mass Burrow|Consumptive Field, Mass Shield of Faith, Divination|1 - 2
5|Bite of the Weretiger, Wall of Thorns, Baleful Polymorph|Plane Shift, Slay Living, Revivify|1 - 2
6|Antilife Shell, Spellstaff, Bite of the Werebear|Create Undead, Harm, Heroes' Feast|2 - 1
7|Aura of Vitality, Word of Balance, Fire Storm|Holy Word, Repulsion, Greater Bestow Curse|1 - 2
8|Reverse Gravity, Cocoon, Finger of Death|Discern Location, Dimensional Lock, Antimagic Field|1 - 2
9|Shapechange, Foresight, Antipathy|Miracle, Gate, Astral Projection|1 - 2
[/table]

So, Cleric wins 18 - 9 according to my list. I agree, that list is better if not perfectly suited for melee combat.

Invader

2012-05-12, 09:54 AM

At 6th level spells you're limited to 12 hd. You'd need an 8th level spell to surpass the druid in that manner, and by that point he's tossing out 1d4+1 huge elementals. Moreover, in order to use that planar ally you need to prepare that particular spell and use it long before combat, whereas druids have it spontaneously. You have neither countered nor surpassed the druid's summoning ability. The xp cost is a bit annoying too.

Regardless of them dueling your argument is that a druids spell list is better because their summoning spells are so good?

I freely admit that druids are better at summoning than clerics but we're talking about their entire spell list and which is better and even considering the druids summoning I still think clerics are better.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 09:58 AM

I still think that sna is better than other spells at some of those levels if cast spontaneously. For example, the ever broken oread at snaVI which can cast earthquake and a pile of other nifty spells. I'd rather use that than alot of spells at that level. Arc of lightning also seems mediocre compared to summoning a bear or giant crocodile in most cases, particularly against casters.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 10:01 AM

Regardless of them dueling your argument is that a druids spell list is better because their summoning spells are so good?

I freely admit that druids are better at summoning than clerics but we're talking about their entire spell list and which is better and even considering the druids summoning I still think clerics are better.

It's not necessarily that they're so good, though they are extremely powerful, it's that they are virtually costless to use. Druids are free to prepare a highly situational and utility filled list on the assumption that they'll always have summoning to fall back on. Comparitively the clerics have healing to fall back on which I think we can all agree is mediocre.

Invader

2012-05-12, 10:11 AM

eggynack

2012-05-12, 10:13 AM

That was just in response to his "best spells at level" list. He concluded that cleric spells were better without taking sna into consideration. On that note, animal growth is fantastic. It's probably one of the best buffs in the game at that level, and with an animal companion by your side it will always have a target you can rely on.

Talya

2012-05-12, 10:20 AM

{table]Level|Druid|Cleric|Score
1|Snake's Swiftness, Entangle, Produce Flame|Bless, Resurgence, Sign|1 - 2
2|Flaming Sphere, Listening Lorecall, Mass Snake's Swiftness|Close Wounds, Divine Insight, Silence|1 - 2
3|Swift Fly, Sleet Storm, Greater Magic Fang|Invisibility Purge, Bestow Curse, Mass Aid|0 - 3
4|Spike Stones, Arc of Lightning, Mass Burrow|Consumptive Field, Mass Shield of Faith, Divination|1 - 2
5|Bite of the Weretiger, Wall of Thorns, Baleful Polymorph|Plane Shift, Slay Living, Revivify|1 - 2
6|Antilife Shell, Spellstaff, Bite of the Werebear|Create Undead, Harm, Heroes' Feast|2 - 1
7|Aura of Vitality, Word of Balance, Fire Storm|Holy Word, Repulsion, Greater Bestow Curse|1 - 2
8|Reverse Gravity, Cocoon, Finger of Death|Discern Location, Dimensional Lock, Antimagic Field|1 - 2
9|Shapechange, Foresight, Antipathy|Miracle, Gate, Astral Projection|1 - 2
[/table]

You missed a LOT of great druid spells, better than the other ones on the list. Even in core, Plant Growth is one of the best battlefield control spells there is. Owl's Insight from the spell compendium is incredible (1/2 caster level insight bonus to wisdom, for 1 hour...and can be cast on your buddies!) Those are jsut two examples i can think of without even going into books (because I'm at work and don't have access to them.) I also question the relative use of some of your choices. I'd rarely ever memorize some of those spells, as either class, some are rather weak, or they're too situational to be representative of top spells.

candycorn

2012-05-12, 10:20 AM

Why is the druid wearing leather instead of +1 dragonscale fullplate with her wilding clasp? Or at the very least lamellar? (leather equivalent of a breastplate from A&EG). You're optimizing the cleric with DMM persist cheese, but forgetting to optimize the druid with things that don't even make a blip on cheese radar. Let's see. +1 dragonscale fullplate. We're looking at 27,000gp base WBL at this level.

A suit of Dragonscale fullplate is 3300gp, 4300 for magical +1. Add in a wilding clasp, and we're up to 8300gp. But wait. Wilding clasps don't resize armor. Or reshape it. So much for that idea, unless, of course, a 1400 pound grizzly can fit the same armor as a 170 pound human. You need Beastskin Armor (MIC p7), which would increase that +1 armor up to a whopping 12,300 gp. But, it's possible, at level 8.

With that, the bear has +9 armor bonus, +1 dex -1 size, and +5 natural. And the druid has spent about 12,300 gp for his 24 AC.

So let's take Full plate +1 (2650 gp) for the cleric, and we're at +9 armor, +1 dex, -1 size, and +2 natural. And, with the savings, let's get a +1 animated heavy steel shield (9170 gp). So for 11,820 gp, the cleric now has +9 armor, +3 shield, +1 dex, -1 size, +2 natural, for a 24 AC.

Both tied, but the cleric does it cheaper. And the cleric, since he has Magic Vestment on a class list, can hit up that armor and shield each with +2, bringing him up to 26 AC. For less money. And yes, the druid can use barkskin, just like the cleric can use divine favor. The whole time, the druid's playing catch up.

Druid actually gets that at 8, but yeah. Let's look at level 15, oh, 12 headed cryohydra form, complete with it's fast healing and head regeneration... (and that's not even one of its best forms).Let's look at that for a second.

Cryohydra: Magical Beast, not animal. Ineligible for wildshape.
Level 15: not even played in a majority of campaigns, and if so, are you really arguing on being ineffective levels 1-4, less effective at levels 5-7, kinda getting close at levels 8-14, and finally, able to do something at level 15? Is this really your argument?

On top of that, assuming you use Beast Shape from Eberron to qualify, it only works once per day, and only allows you to turn into your beast totem, as gained by the beast totem feat. Cryohydra isn't an option on that feat.

MoMF can do what you're describing, but then you're going up against a Mettle (by PrC) Evasion (by Ring) Cleric with the ability to persist spells up to level 8, likely 3-4 spells at this point. At this point, level 15, spells completely overshadow melee. Nobody fights in melee unless the frickin' level 15 casters are done rendering it declawed.

Level 15 is not a realistic benchmark. It's like saying that a car that stalls in first gear, and backfires in second is better than a well-maintained car, because, boy, once that jalopy gets to third gear, it flies. Never mind that it has to be towed until it reaches 60 mph to do it.

You're trying to use Huge as the benchmark, when it's seen in so few actual campaigns that it may as well be the capstone, if that.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 10:24 AM

Cryohydra: Magical Beast, not animal. Ineligible for wildshape.

I'm pretty sure her plan here was to take frozen wildshape from frostburn at 15th to get her access to cold subtyped magical beasts. It's a pretty good feat choice at that level.

Talya

2012-05-12, 10:33 AM

Let's see. +1 dragonscale fullplate. We're looking at 27,000gp base WBL at this level.

A suit of Dragonscale fullplate is 3300gp, 4300 for magical +1. Add in a wilding clasp, and we're up to 8300gp. But wait. Wilding clasps don't resize armor. Or reshape it. So much for that idea, unless, of course, a 1400 pound grizzly can fit the same armor as a 170 pound human. You need Beastskin Armor (MIC p7), which would increase that +1 armor up to a whopping 12,300 gp. But, it's possible, at level 8.

With that, the bear has +9 armor bonus, +1 dex -1 size, and +5 natural. And the druid has spent about 12,300 gp for his 24 AC.

So let's take Full plate +1 (2650 gp) for the cleric, and we're at +9 armor, +1 dex, -1 size, and +2 natural. And, with the savings, let's get a +1 animated heavy steel shield (9170 gp). So for 11,820 gp, the cleric now has +9 armor, +3 shield, +1 dex, -1 size, +2 natural, for a 24 AC.

Both tied, but the cleric does it cheaper. And the cleric, since he has Magic Vestment on a class list, can hit up that armor and shield each with +2, bringing him up to 26 AC. For less money. And yes, the druid can use barkskin, just like the cleric can use divine favor. The whole time, the druid's playing catch up.

You're talking about a difference of 480 gp. And that druid is going to rip the cleric to shreds...even if you stick with a simple form like the bear. Dinosaurs in general ... Fleshrakers, Deinonychus (both of which are available at level 5), Megaraptors, Cave Triceratops, Anklyosaurs, not to mention non-dino options like Dire Lions, Rhinos, etc. Lots of options that kick ass.

Let's look at that for a second.

Cryohydra: Magical Beast, not animal. Ineligible for wildshape.
Level 15: not even played in a majority of campaigns, and if so, are you really arguing on being ineffective levels 1-4, less effective at levels 5-7, kinda getting close at levels 8-14, and finally, able to do something at level 15? Is this really your argument?
I gave it as one higher level example. Druid is still a better melee platform long before you get there.

On top of that, assuming you use Beast Shape from Eberron to qualify, it only works once per day, and only allows you to turn into your beast totem, as gained by the beast totem feat. Cryohydra isn't an option on that feat.

Two words:
Frozen Wildshape. (A.K.A. 12 headed cryohydra wildshape.)

Invader

2012-05-12, 10:37 AM

Armor, feats, wildshape, melee effectiveness, all have nothing to do with who has a better spell list.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 10:41 AM

I contend that wildshape is practically a part of the druid's spell list by 6th level. If you remove it from consideration, then the spells that a druid prepares change dramatically. I consider natural spell and wildshape to be more commonly in use to druids then dmm persist is to clerics. If you remove wildshape from a druid, you're removing what makes them a druid.

FMArthur

2012-05-12, 10:43 AM

Both lists can plow through a fight like a lawnmower. What's better to have out of combat?

Roguenewb

2012-05-12, 11:01 AM

Out of combat, the situational respect that clerics of a good diety get is almost as good as a class feature! But besides that, druids are pretty at getting by the natural hazards, like cliffs, rivers, lakes and such, and clerics can pretend to be a rogue pretty well.... I think, for most campaigns, I'd rather have a cleric on the sidelines.

LordBlades

2012-05-12, 11:03 AM

Lactantius

2012-05-12, 11:05 AM

The worthy of a cleric spell list is highly overrated.
The sheer mass of spell options do not show thta most times, cleric spells fall under the same (boring) categories:

They cure, restore, remove, strengthen, buff and support.
That's a pretty general descriptio, but it does meet the theme of a cleric spell list.
They have some utility, same as a druid. Both can dabble in divinations, both with different apporaches.

But at the end of the day, the cleric spell list focus on those themes. Throw in some control (minor battlefield, some summons) and thats all about it.
Domain spells can empower the list a bit and make him more versatile, but - again - in some settings (like the realms) this is deity-specific and therefore no granted optimization option.

Even if we stretch the spell list with spell compendium, the Druid gets stronger.
His self buffs are insane.
Check owl's insight, bite of the X, tortoise shell (higher AC), magic fangs, align fang, stoneskin or body of the sun.
And never forget: all those spells are 2-in-1 since they also affect your companion.

His setting and environment spells in wilderness is unmatched. The cleric has no appropriate option.
Check control weather, control wind, lay of the land, find the path, one with the land and so on.

Sure, both classes cant match the wizard in defense terms, but that's another issue. ;)

All in all, I see more versatility (and power) in the druid spell list since it is broader while a cleric gets 500 ways to remove, restore, heal or buff.

Melnir

2012-05-12, 11:09 AM

Once again, persisting any spell above level 3 = cheese.

It isn't. It's why DMM is good.

The cleric is also under no circumstances better at melee or more durable. Just remember the druid, on a 32 point buy, has 18 wis, and 18 con. If you drop to a 26 point buy, it's likely 18 wis and 16 con. Their strength and dexterity are as good as whatever animal they are choosing to be today. Druid self-buffs are designed to augment the animal. Cleric self-buffs are designed to emulate the fighter. The cleric still needs their other ability scores to handle this ... oh, they get buffed, yes. But not nearly as far.

What does a cleric need? Wisdom and constitution, maybe a bit of charisma. You can drop intelligence, strength and dexterity without problems.

Yes, the thread is talking about spell lists alone, not other class features. But you have to remember what the spells are designed to do. Druids don't get righteous might and divine power, it's true. And a druid's self-buffs wouldn't be all that good if a cleric were casting them on themselves. But you have to take into account what their buffs are designed to be buffing..

(And no way would I rather have domains and turn undead than wildshape and an animal companion. A single extra spell per spell level -usually locked into two usually suboptimal choices- is not as good as a feature which *by itself* makes a class tier 3. Turn undead is not more powerful than the entire fighter class. If you really want to compare them, build a featureless class - 3/4 BAB, d8 hit die, high fort/will saves. Now, give it a couple domains. One spell per spell level, though. No bonus spells. That's it. Give a second one wildshape as per the druid. Beyond the obvious "no wildshape at levels 1-4, and only a single use per day at 5", which one ends up more useful? Similarly with turn undeaad and animal companion. If the animal companion is your only class feature, you're still better than the fighter. The same can't be said for the guy with turn undead.)

Sorry what? Just one thing: cloistered cleric 3/church inquisitor 1/ranger 1/seeker of the misty isle 7/contemplative 6/divine oracle 1/divine disciple 1.

How many domains? 10. Choose Olidammara (trickery, celerity, sloth, mind, city), Cyric (envy, illusion, pride, trickery), Gargauth (charm, envy, pride, sloth, trickery), Mask (trickery, sloth, luck, city), Oghma (trickery, pride, luck, charm), Sharess (charm, envy, sloth, trickery), Mockery (trickery, pride, illusion, envy, domination), Chronepsis (time, planning, fate, dragon), St. Cuthbert (destiny, domination, protection), Horus-Re (destiny, pride, sun), Undying Court (destiny, fate, planning, protection), Pelor (destiny, sun, pride), Gond (city, planning, pride), Waukeen (city, pride, protection, sloth), Finder Wyvernspur (charm, pride, renewal, sloth) and you'll get the best out of this domain focused build. Get spontaneous domain acf, divine magician acf, spontaneous domains feat (CC) and spontaneous domain (CD) and you can cast spontaneously your domain spells. Problems versatility?

Turn undead problem? Get a racial substitution level (drow, azurin, dragonblood cleric) or get rebuke dragons acf, then dip into sacred exorcist or other PrC that grants turn/rebuke undead. 1 level of master of shrouds (LM) grants you rebuke undead + extra turning feat. Undeath domain grants extra turning. If you just want to get as many turning as possible you can easily reach 60/70 (2*(3+Cha)+ 36/40 from extra turning, without nightsticks and RHS). Take divine defiance, persist shapechange and you're a better shapechanger than the druid. Become an outsider (5 levels in divine disciple) and you're an amazing wildshaper. How many turning attempts did I use? How many left 40/50. How many spells left to persist? 6/7.

What you say about class features might be true if cleric doesn't take levels in PrC. Why shouldn't a cleric do it? And why should a druid do it (except for planar shepard)?

Lactantius

2012-05-12, 11:11 AM

DMM explicitly allows a caster to bypass this limit by using turn undead. DMM Persist is 100 RAI. There have been a number of clarifications by Wotc on DMM, and if they had felt the need to impose further limitation, they would have.

I do agree that a class comparison shouldn't be based on specific builds, but neither should specific builds be ignored, especially when they provide a big power boost.

RE: having limits, every games has some, and it's normal. But calling people who have other ideas about those limits 'not sane' is going a bit far IMO

Well, I would not count on what is RAW or RAI just because it is written down and clarified.
With the same argument, the whole broken stuff is possible.
Chain gating, infinite wishes or breaking the action economy by using metamagic reducers or DMM won't get playable stuff just because it is written down there.
Even greenbound summoning is over the limit and a good example that it is not true that you should be able to use all stuff you find written down:
the designer of this template said that originally, GBS was meant as an expensive metamagic feat.
Long way, short run: the designers did not foresee all broken combinations that became unlocked by each new supplement which was released.

Or, sometimes, they were just not seeing the monster they created (belt of battle, anyone?)

Invader

2012-05-12, 11:21 AM

LordBlades

2012-05-12, 01:16 PM

Well, I would not count on what is RAW or RAI just because it is written down and clarified.
With the same argument, the whole broken stuff is possible.
Chain gating, infinite wishes or breaking the action economy by using metamagic reducers or DMM won't get playable stuff just because it is written down there.
Even greenbound summoning is over the limit and a good example that it is not true that you should be able to use all stuff you find written down:
the designer of this template said that originally, GBS was meant as an expensive metamagic feat.
Long way, short run: the designers did not foresee all broken combinations that became unlocked by each new supplement which was released.

Or, sometimes, they were just not seeing the monster they created (belt of battle, anyone?)

Just because something is above what you think as the 'intended power level'(which you have no way of knowing, even by using core as the benchmark, since they printed CoDzilla and Monks in the same books) doesn't mean it's 'broken', 'unplayable' and that people using it 'aren't sane'.

I've personally played in quite a few games where DMM Persist clerics were the norm, and they were perfectly fine.

mucco

2012-05-12, 02:22 PM

You missed a LOT of great druid spells, better than the other ones on the list. Even in core, Plant Growth is one of the best battlefield control spells there is. Owl's Insight from the spell compendium is incredible (1/2 caster level insight bonus to wisdom, for 1 hour...and can be cast on your buddies!) Those are jsut two examples i can think of without even going into books (because I'm at work and don't have access to them.) I also question the relative use of some of your choices. I'd rarely ever memorize some of those spells, as either class, some are rather weak, or they're too situational to be representative of top spells.

I admit I don't know the Druid list very well, never having played one. Please provide more examples! Plant Growth definitely looks like a very strong spell, at a very low level. Nice.

Owl's Insight... meh. One hour often means one combat, which makes it alright but not an all-day buff. It's +half level to perception checks and will saving throws (both should be a joke already), +level/4 to save DCs. Spell level 5 is a bit lackluster, so it seems like an ok choice. It is one of those spells that look better than they are, IMO.

The choice of spells has been purposely focused on being situational: that's what makes a good list good - different solutions for different problems. I'm trying to extrapolate the T1 in those spell lists. Silence is poor man's AMF, for example. Mass Burrow is an excellent panic button. Divination is something you don't prepare every morning, but when you do prepare it it's incredibly good. Word of Balance is a great debuff. Mass Shield of Faith because mass +3 to AC is huge for that slot. Finger of Death (now in 8th-level version w/o Heighten) for that time you discover the wizard doesn't have a death ward item.

I don't care about the "best" spells - otherwise I'd make a sorcerer with Wings of Cover, Power Word: Pain, Love's Pain, Mind Rape and Polymorph. Sorcerers are T2, druids and clerics can do better. And hey, these classes are designed to prepare situational spells. They can swap them out! In the case of the druid, with some very strong spells even.

Gandariel

2012-05-12, 02:57 PM

Other good druid ones are Mass snake's swiftness, entangle, kelpstrand, Bite of X.. Entomb looks cool, and Venomfire is really really overpowered

Spuddles

2012-05-12, 04:32 PM

Druids can get just as much turn undead as clerics can, with a spell. Which means DMM perisit shenanigans, except now it's bite of the werebear (and every other awesome buff) on him and his warbeast fleshraker dinosaur.

Everyone keeps talking about wildshape in this argument and its a mute point. The whole debate is who has a better spell list. Based purely on spell selection a cleric list is bigger, more varied, and has generally stronger spells.

The only test you need by comparison is to have a cleric and druid stripped of all other class abilities/feats have a duel. The druid will not win.

Moot point. Not mute point.

Anyway, if the cleric gets DMM and domains, the druid gets
Wildshape and Animal Companion.

Invader

2012-05-12, 05:20 PM

Druids can get just as much turn undead as clerics can, with a spell. Which means DMM perisit shenanigans, except now it's bite of the werebear (and every other awesome buff) on him and his warbeast fleshraker dinosa. ur.

Moot point. Not mute point.

Anyway, if the cleric gets DMM and domains, the druid gets
Wildshape and Animal Companion.

Thank you I missed that lol

And I maintain that they should get neither in this debate but everyone keeps ignoring the OP's actual question.

eggynack

2012-05-12, 05:44 PM

Thank you I missed that lol

And I maintain that they should get neither in this debate but everyone keeps ignoring the OP's actual question.

Well, the op explicitly asked for domains and dmm persist to be included in the equation. Therefore you're taking pretty much all of a cleric's class features into account while ignoring all of a druid's. If you do that, then the class that maintains those class features is going to have a bit of an unfair advantage.

Invader

2012-05-12, 05:54 PM

Well, the op explicitly asked for domains and dmm persist to be included in the equation. Therefore you're taking pretty much all of a cleric's class features into account while ignoring all of a druid's. If you do that, then the class that maintains those class features is going to have a bit of an unfair advantage.

Rereading the OP I would agree with you that persistent spell should be discounted because its not a spell.

Domains on the other hand are just extensions of a spell list so I could see how they could be counted (although I wouldn't argue if people disagreed as I can take them or leave them for the sake of this debate). Granted powers from domains shouldn't be though.

Snowbluff

2012-05-12, 06:01 PM

I'm judging purely on PHB spells and I'll break it down by level and why I think one is better than the other.

Spell lvl # of spells

2 - Cleric 32 Druid 26 Druids get more of the stat buff spells level and flaming sphere but clerics cure/inflict mod, hold person, shield other, silence. Based on the spells I've used most I'm going to give it to the druid mainly for flame sphere.

Yeah that's all well and good. You came to the same conclusion I did. Cleric > Druid most levels. That being said, what the hell happened here?! Flame Sphere is better than Hold Person? Hold Person alone should shift this in the Clerics favor!

Spuddles

2012-05-12, 06:06 PM

Bone Talisman gets a druid turning:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a

Thank you I missed that lol

And I maintain that they should get neither in this debate but everyone keeps ignoring the OP's actual question.

The OP said DMM was on the table, but I agree; if evaluating lists and only lists, then domains, wildshape, etc. should be ignored.

Yeah that's all well and good. You came to the same conclusion I did. Cleric > Druid most levels. That being said, what the hell happened here?! Flame Sphere is better than Hold Person? Hold Person alone should shift this in the Clerics favor!

Flaming sphere is free damage as a move action. Hold Person only works on humanoids, has a save, and the save repeats every round.

Gandariel

2012-05-12, 06:10 PM

Just to clarify:

Yes, i did intend to put domains and DMM, as well as Animal Companion and Wildshape into the equation, because it actively helps describing how useful spells are.

If a wizard were to get Bite of the weresomething, it would be certainly cool, but not as much as for a Druid.

I include the existance of Domains because they're extra spells, simple. Domain powers are largely not considered, but they influence common domain choices (planning and undeath) OR they replace spells (Travel)

I include DMM because it's an important factor for the usefullness of some Cleric spells.
Divine power and Righteous might? the Cleric would have to spend 2 turns to get both on, it's a significant disadvantage.
The fact that DMM exists has to be factored, because the usefullness of said spells (and many others) is vastly increased by the ability to Persist them.

Wildshape is included because the druid is a melee fighter with it, and benefits from Str and Con increases much more than, say, a wizard.

The existance of Animal companions is included because Druid buffs are shared with the pet. That's two spells in one, again increasing the usefullness of buff spells.

I hope this clarifies.
The question is only about spell lists.
I take in account the various features, but only regarding their influence to the usefullness of spells.

EDIT: Also, Flaming Sphere sucks, in my opinion.

Invader

2012-05-12, 06:58 PM

Gandariel

2012-05-12, 07:06 PM

First of all, i don't think everyone agrees with you (but let's not talk about it)

Anyway, the question IS about spell lists.

But, can't just consider spells in a vacuum.
When "rating" a buff spell you have to take in account that it can be shared with an animal companion too, for example.

Persisted Wraithstrike? okay, that's likely too strong (as Venomfire)

but that's the point. The question IS about spell lists.

Voyager_I

2012-05-12, 07:55 PM

Well then your question isn't what spell list is better its what class is better and in that case the short answer is druids win.

Looking at spells in a vaccum doesn't really work, though. The chassis using them is an integral part of their function. Transformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transformation.htm) might be usable if it wasn't attached to Sorcerers and Wizards.

MukkTB

2012-05-12, 09:12 PM

Druid VS Cleric. Who would preform better?

An 8th level party is attempting to transverse a dungeon. You are the Codzilla and the group's only caster. The rest of the group consists of a THW fighter, an archer fighter, a TWF ranger, and a rogue. This dungeon is extremely large and porous although many of the passageways are impassable to medium creatures w/o good climbing skills. There are pits, tiny passages, ect.

You have made it fairly deep into the caves. But now you're finding that this is the home of kobolds. They swarm around the party and are readying a series of attacks. You expect to be fighting kobolds for a long time before you can withdraw. They'll use the passages your medium party can't fit in. They'll light areas on fire. They're adept at quickly setting up traps. Some of them have up to 4 class levels. They have some home brewed cr 6 gelatinous cubes that they can control chemically.

To make matters worse the DM is hinting to you that your character remembers something about a demon living in the area. You're finding evidence that the kobolds worship it. Further Knowledge checks lead you to suspect a single cr 11 monster.

Get your party out of the dungeon.

So again. Cleric or druid FTW?

Talya

2012-05-12, 11:38 PM

I was about to say that the dungeon favors the cleric, while a forest would favor the druid. I have to think, though, that the ability to collapse huge sections of the dungeon behind you as you go with a core level 2 druid spell might be lifesaving, here.

In both cases this is going to be hard. You just sprang tucker's kobolds w/steroids on a level 8 party.

Depending if there's any clay, solid dirt, or softer ground nearby, that same spell + Wildshape - dire badger is going to manage to get the party out safely with a minimum of combat.

Golden Ladybug

2012-05-12, 11:55 PM

The aim is just to get the party out of the Dungeon? Cleric wins.

Using the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF and the Travel Domain, the Cleric Dimension Doors the Party out of the dungeon. Its reasonable to assume that an 8th level cleric would be able to spring for at least 4 4th level spell slots, which is 2880ft distance. If the way out horizontally is too far, just go up.

Other than that rather simple way to solve the problem, there is a bit more thinking required. Personally, I believe that the Cleric is a stronger class overall. Druids are very strong straight out of the box, but they lose potency by Prestige Classing into anything other than Planar Shepherd.

Clerics, on the other hand, gain so much. Sovereign Speaker, Dweomerkeeper, Bone Knight, Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist and all the others that I'm too tired to think of all make a Cleric significantly better at their chosen field. The Druid can't best them at what they choose to be really good at, unless its summoning or melee (and Clerics can give them a run for their money in those areas), but the Cleric can pretty much do anything they put their mind to.

But that's just how I see it. Feel free to disagree vehemently with me

candycorn

2012-05-13, 03:25 AM

You're talking about a difference of 480 gp. And that druid is going to rip the cleric to shreds...even if you stick with a simple form like the bear. Dinosaurs in general ... Fleshrakers, Deinonychus (both of which are available at level 5), Megaraptors, Cave Triceratops, Anklyosaurs, not to mention non-dino options like Dire Lions, Rhinos, etc. Lots of options that kick ass.Actually, the druid would have a very hard time of it. In the above example, the cleric has one thing that not one of the forms you mentioned have. Reach. 10 feet with a stock standard weapon, and 20 with a reach weapon. That's much more useful in combat than a couple extra attacks that you probably won't get to make very often anyway.

So, let's look at a CR 9 enemy. Frost Giant. +18 to hit, vs that druid's AC 24. 75% hit chance, an iterative attack, and reach. 23.5 average damage per hit, without power attack. Druid, with 18 Con, would have an average of 80 HP. (max roll for 1st HD, average thereafter).

Weighted damage is 29.375 per round, with an additional 17.625 when the beardruid moves through the giant's threatened area to be able to attack. On average, the druid is dead in 3 rounds.

The druid will have an average of +13 to hit (+6 bab, and +8 str, -1 size) with primary natural attack vs the giant AC of 23, or a 55% hit chance. Average damage of 12.5, 12.5, and 11. Weighted damage of 17.05 per round, assuming full attacks (6.875 on a single attack). At that rate, the giant will go down in...8 rounds.

Now, the cleric. Assuming a masterwork weapon (reasonable, I hope, at level 9), he's got a +6 str, +9 bab, +1 enhancement, -1 size, for a +15 to hit. Assuming 16 con with 9 temp HP, also 80 HP. Assume 24 AC as well, as listed above. With equal reach, he's not taking an AoO to get in, and is hitting 65% and 40% with two attacks. Those attacks will do an average of 16 damage, giving the cleric an average of 16.8 damage on a full attack (10.4 for a single attack).

I gave it as one higher level example. Druid is still a better melee platform long before you get there.
As shown, most enemies will treat Druid Armor Class as tissue paper, and will be swinging enough to kill a druid quickly. Same with cleric, but at least the cleric has enough reach to be able to engage without eating AoO's. That's a major disadvantage. I'm sorry if you don't agree... But the druid would have little chance of actually defeating a cleric with 10 foot reach, much less 20 (say, with a longspear). Because in order to win in melee, you have to first attack, and the druid simply has more challenges getting in position to do so.

In the above case, the druid would be GREAT as a summoner. Instead of bear, pick dire bat or dire hawk. Drop SNA 5 for 1d3 tigers, and follow up with produce flame for 150% of 1d6+5 on touch attacks, with much lower risk. Better yet, mounted combat, ride a dire bat, and use mounted combat to negate rock hits while sharing that produce flame. Now you're up to effectively 3d6+15 a round (average 25.5 damage) with a single level 1 slot.

This is because Druid isn't a very good melee platform without significant investment. It is, however, a fantastic artillery/support platform, straight out of the box.

Two words:
Frozen Wildshape. (A.K.A. 12 headed cryohydra wildshape.)
Two words: level 15.

If your car has to be in third gear to be better, it's not better. Level 15 has so many variables (for one, the cleric is going to have up to level 8 spells persisted? Is going to have a quarter million gold? Really?)

At level 15, the cleric will contribute more than a melee druid. In a head to head fight, at level 15, a cleric built for melee will utterly DESTROY the hypothetical druid you've spoken of here. There are too many ways to do it.

Heck, Resist Energy, a level 2 spell, will completely shut down the breath weapon of the cryohydra, and even bite of the werebear won't get that 23 strength to good enough levels, if the cleric has thought in the least bit about defense.

mucco

2012-05-13, 03:38 AM

candycorn is very correct. The Druid's first strength is summoning and mobility via Wildshape. In melee it's quite good, but nowhere near as awesome as it's made out to be. And it severely lacks action economy tricks, which are fundamental if you want to be a good melee. Pounces, swift action buffs, and the like. There really is little about that - pretty much only the fact Wildshape is always active. The druid needs to spend a feat on it while the cleric needs three to Persist, but then the cleric can do so much more with that trick.

Druids also have a big AC problem.

JeminiZero

2012-05-13, 04:11 AM

Well, here's my 2 cents:

Going beyond just spell lists, if you add in the rest of the class features... well here is where it starts to get tricky. With bare minimal optimization (like just putting high stat to wis), Druids are definitely stronger out of the box (partly because the poor unoptimized Cleric is convinced his role is just to cast cure spells).

But as you start increasing optimization levels, the cleric climbs faster than the druid, and ultimately winds up ahead after a certain point. At the extreme ends of optimization, the most infamous broken builds (Cheater of Mystra, Betrayer of Shar), are based off Cleric.

The fact that these builds are considered broken cheese is besides the point: what a DM will or will not allow is highly subjective (E.g. the Test of Spite bans default Wildshape, but allows DMM persist). Under such subjective ban-list scenario, you might be able to argue that one class is stronger under a certain DM's ruling (and you wind up arguing past each other since each of you mostly have different DMs). You CANNOT argue that one class is stronger under ALL DMs.

TL;DR: In terms of sheer unbridled raw power, the Cleric wins. Whether or not he can bring all that power into play depends on whose table you are gaming at.

candycorn

2012-05-13, 04:42 AM

TL;DR: In terms of sheer unbridled raw power, the Cleric wins. Whether or not he can bring all that power into play depends on whose table you are gaming at.

Same is true of anything. I've seen tables where fighters can outperform wizards (spellcasting was effectively disallowed, through incredibly harsh additional costs of spells. Example: Spells cost 1 Ability Burn to Con per spell level. Thus, a level 1 spell was 1 burn, and a level 4 spell was 4 burn.).

Spuddles

2012-05-13, 04:53 AM

candycorn

2012-05-13, 05:02 AM

Cleric wins for taking prestige classes a druid also qualifies for? Really? The fact that a cleric comes with nothing past 1st level doesn't make it a better class than druid.

Druid does qualify for those. In the same way that an Orc Paragon 3 / Rogue 17 qualifies for Frenzied Berserker. Taking those classes weakens the very abilities that proponents say the spell list supports. If you PrC out into a full casting PrC as a druid, your wild shape ends up being irrelevant, as does your animal companion.

On the other side, when a Cleric PrC's out into a full casting PrC? The main features: Spellcasting and Turn undead are completely unaffected, for most purposes.

It's not that the cleric gets no features. Its that those features aren't chained to your levels in that class. A Cleric 18 with a 10 charisma and extra turning has the same DMM effectiveness as a Cleric 5 / PRC 10 / PRC 3, with 10 charisma and extra turning.

A druid 18 does not have the same wild shape strength as a druid 5 / cleric prc 10 / other prc 3.

LordBlades

2012-05-13, 05:04 AM

Druids also have a big AC problem.

If you're restricted in your sources and/or don't optimize much then yeah, druids have low AC. However, if you put some effort into it, druids can have among the highest AC in the game.

For example:

8th level deep dwarf druid stating stats 18 con 18 wis on PB 32, both points put into wisdom
Relevant Feats: Natural Bond
Relevant Gear: Monk's Belt with Wilding Clasp, periapt of Wisdom+2 with Wilding Clasp (total cost 25k gp)
Relevant Buffs Cast: Bite of the Wereboar, Halo of Sand, Greater Luminous Armor (all 3 shared with Fleshraker animal companion).

Widlshape into Fleshraker. Your AC is now: 20 (Fleshraker base) + 7(monk's belt)+2 (Halo of Sand)+ 8(bite of the Wereboar) +8(Greater Luminous Armor)=45

Animal Companion AC: 26 (base AC for Advanced Fleshraker)+2 (Halo of Sand) +8 (Bite of the Wereboar) + 8(Greater Luminous Armor) =44

Saves (Vs spells): Fort +16, Ref + 9 Will +15 so decent defenses vs spells also (A character with Greater Spell Focus casting a 5th level spell needs a casting stat of at least 28 in order to give him a below 50% chance to pass, assuming the Druid exists in a vacuum and that there's no other caster in the party able/willing to share greater resistance) .
Offensive potential requires no explanation either given that it's a Druid and such.

candycorn

2012-05-13, 05:15 AM

If you're restricted in your sources and/or don't optimize much then yeah, druids have low AC. However, if you put some effort into it, druids can have among the highest AC in the game.

For example:

Tell me, how does that character fare at level 1-4?

Let's say, level 3, vs a quartet of air goblin rogues with improved initiative?

-1 initiative modifier + dex penalty to AC + very low carrying capacity = asking to be killed.

Heck, level 2 vs a human sorceror and an orc barbarian (both level 1). Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Clumsiness = a character with a -3 to AC from dex, and a carrying capacity of ick.

Melnir

2012-05-13, 05:29 AM

Well then your question isn't what spell list is better its what class is better and in that case the short answer is druids win.

Yes, druid 20 is better than cleric 20, but druid 20 might not be better than cleric+PrC. And druid+PrC (except for planar shepard) is worse than druid 20

Gandariel

2012-05-13, 05:52 AM

Tell me, how does that character fare at level 1-4?

During levels 1-4 druid is The strongest class there is. i don't understand why you keep arguing about it.
The first levels are the one in which the druid is THE best at (almost)everything.
After that, he keeps being awesome, but happens to be outshadowed by wizards&co, and maybe clerics.

In the first four levels, the druid has:
Good chassis (same as cleric, okay)
a 2nd level fighter-equivalent with whom he can share spells. (Oh, and at 3rd level he gets extra bonuses)
Spells! Entangle, Produce flame, Kelpstrand, Summons...

I'm GMing in a game, with a moderate degree of optimisation (although not that much for the standards of the Playground)
The level 4 druid player can literally sit on the ground while his Dire Eagle and his Summoned Ashbonud (greenbound was too strong, he refused to take it) Hippogrifs kill stuff.

Druid is definitely the best class in the first few levels (except for very very very high op scenarios)

JeminiZero

2012-05-13, 05:54 AM

Cleric wins for taking prestige classes a druid also qualifies for? Really? The fact that a cleric comes with nothing past 1st level doesn't make it a better class than druid.

You appear to misunderstand me. The cleric is mechanically stronger (or "wins" as you put it) because he can pull off much stronger combos, that are hilariously over-powered (ignoring for now the question on whether the DM lets him pull off these combos in the first place).

The fact that these combos involve PrCs that the Druid might also qualify for, is entirely incidental. Even if the druid took the those PrCs, he lacks the spells/ class features/ feats/ miscellaneous, to pull off same said combos. (And he loses out on Class feature progression as Candycorn point out).

candycorn

2012-05-13, 05:55 AM

Yes, druid 20 is better than cleric 20, but druid 20 might not be better than cleric+PrC. And druid+PrC (except for planar shepard) is worse than druid 20

Incorrect. Druid 20 and cleric 20 are about equal. They just have different strengths. One of the great druid fallacies is that all you need to do is take natural spell and suddenly you ROXXORS at front line fighting.

candycorn

2012-05-13, 06:19 AM

During levels 1-4 druid is The strongest class there is. i don't understand why you keep arguing about it.
The first levels are the one in which the druid is THE best at (almost)everything.
After that, he keeps being awesome, but happens to be outshadowed by wizards&co, and maybe clerics.

In the first four levels, the druid has:
Good chassis (same as cleric, okay)
a 2nd level fighter-equivalent with whom he can share spells. (Oh, and at 3rd level he gets extra bonuses)
Spells! Entangle, Produce flame, Kelpstrand, Summons...

I'm GMing in a game, with a moderate degree of optimisation (although not that much for the standards of the Playground)
The level 4 druid player can literally sit on the ground while his Dire Eagle and his Summoned Ashbonud (greenbound was too strong, he refused to take it) Hippogrifs kill stuff.

Druid is definitely the best class in the first few levels (except for very very very high op scenarios)

Unless you ditch your dex and str.

Level 4 druid with 8 dex has a reflex of 0. If he's casting a SNA2 when a web hits (cast by a wizard with 18 intelligence)? Concentration DC 17 for being entangled, and Concentration 18 for distraction by nondamaging spell.

Assuming that concentration is one of the druid's 4 skills (assuming he's human), then he has a +11. Chance to fail at least one of those checks? 47.5%.

That's not even getting into the Kelgore's firebolt. Imagine an evoker with Kelgore's firebolt, that is level 4, and spellgifted. Imagine that human evoker has a 16 intelligence, and Sudden Silent and Sudden Maximize, along with Improved Initiative and a 14 dex.

+6 init vs druid's -1.
30 damage spell, Reflex save for half.

There are others. A bunch of 14 dex goblin warriors (CR 1/2) with light crossbows and rapid reload? +4 to hit for 1d6 damage. Assume the druid has leather armor and a buckler? AC 12. Expect 5-6 hits

What about 4 level 1 Orc barbarians, each with 19 strength (rage to 23)? That would be an attack at +7 for 1d12+9.

I agree. A druid can be towed through levels 1-4 by a nice party who don't mind. Level 5-6 too, somewhat, since he can't stay in shape all day yet.

But that doesn't make him awesome. It makes him dependent.

Lactantius

2012-05-13, 07:35 AM

Oh well,
seems like the optimization- and breaking-level on the playground is so high over the clouds that common rule application will fail.

As long as people don't question DMM persist, the discussion is fruitless.

Ah well, just a little hint to really, really think through it:

if the designers would like to see a cleric using his main self-buffs all day long, why did they put a short duration tag on those spells?
If the designers wouldn't be cautious about 24-hour-buffs, why would they put a hefty metamagic price tag on persistant spell?

If the designers would not care about the maximum metamagic modifier you could apply, why would they limit those modifiers up to the spell level you can actually cast?

Those are deep, mechanical pillars which should not be touched unless...
you want to break and so, create a new quality of D&D-game.
Sure, this has nothing to do anymore with D&D as it should work, but at least, we know now why people are scared ot Tier 1.
If you deny the cheese stuff, clerics, druids and wizards are still the top tiers.
But at least, they don't stick on questionable and totally broken stuff.

All said.

LordBlades

2012-05-13, 07:38 AM

Unless you ditch your dex and str.

Level 4 druid with 8 dex has a reflex of 0. If he's casting a SNA2 when a web hits (cast by a wizard with 18 intelligence)? Concentration DC 17 for being entangled, and Concentration 18 for distraction by nondamaging spell.

Assuming that concentration is one of the druid's 4 skills (assuming he's human), then he has a +11. Chance to fail at least one of those checks? 47.5%.

That's not even getting into the Kelgore's firebolt. Imagine an evoker with Kelgore's firebolt, that is level 4, and spellgifted. Imagine that human evoker has a 16 intelligence, and Sudden Silent and Sudden Maximize, along with Improved Initiative and a 14 dex.

+6 init vs druid's -1.
30 damage spell, Reflex save for half.

There are others. A bunch of 14 dex goblin warriors (CR 1/2) with light crossbows and rapid reload? +4 to hit for 1d6 damage. Assume the druid has leather armor and a buckler? AC 12. Expect 5-6 hits

What about 4 level 1 Orc barbarians, each with 19 strength (rage to 23)? That would be an attack at +7 for 1d12+9.

I agree. A druid can be towed through levels 1-4 by a nice party who don't mind. Level 5-6 too, somewhat, since he can't stay in shape all day yet.

But that doesn't make him awesome. It makes him dependent.

Let's take my eariler Dwarf Druid example, and assume for some reason he's to be played in a campaign that starts at level 1. Instead of 18 wis, 18 con, you can easily go 18 wis, 16 con, 14 dex. Alll you're losing is 1 HP/level and 1 Fort save.

AC wise,: Hide Armor(+3), Heavy Wooden Shield (+2), dex(+2)=17. Can buff it further with Barkskin starting from level 3 on. Also, you have an animal companion to hide behind. How much AC does the average Two-handed fighter/barb/whatever has at level 1-4? And he needs to be in melee with the enemy.

Ref save wise: +2 dex and poor ref. He's probably better off than any heavy armor wearer (who usually don't go beyond 12 dex), and probably as good as any non-dex focused poor Ref class. Also, being dwarf he'd get +2 vs. all spells.

Init-wise, druid rarely needs too many feats to do things (apart from Natural spell at 6, so he's one of the better classes to get Improved Initiative on, or, if Halfling, Yondalla's Sense). Druid with 14 dex and improved init rolls at +6; that's quite a bit above average for level 1-4.

Your post points out weaknesses that are easily mitigated if you want, and/or are shared by many other classes.

Oh well,
seems like the optimization- and breaking-level on the playground is so high over the clouds that common rule application will fail.

As long as people don't question DMM persist, the discussion is fruitless.

Ah well, just a little hint to really, really think through it:

if the designers would like to see a cleric using his main self-buffs all day long, why did they put a short duration tag on those spells?
If the designers wouldn't be cautious about 24-hour-buffs, why would they put a hefty metamagic price tag on persistant spell?

If the designers would not care about the maximum metamagic modifier you could apply, why would they limit those modifiers up to the spell level you can actually cast?

Those are deep, mechanical pillars which should not be touched unless...
you want to break and so, create a new quality of D&D-game.
Sure, this has nothing to do anymore with D&D as it should work, but at least, we know now why people are scared ot Tier 1.
If you deny the cheese stuff, clerics, druids and wizards are still the top tiers.
But at least, they don't stick on questionable and totally broken stuff.

All said.

If the designers didn't acknowledge D&D allows for a wide spectrum of power levels (where different stuff are appropriate), then why are Cleric, Druid and Wizard in the same book with Fighter and Monk? Why would Toughness be in the same book with Natural Spell? It was either intention or cluelessness. Thing is, stuff is there. Some of it works in actual games (Practical optimization), the rest doesn't (Theoretical Optimization).

DMM persist clerics work as intended in high powered games, although they probably would break a fighter/rogue/ranger/cleric game in half.

Your limits don't need to be anyone else's.

JeminiZero

2012-05-13, 09:18 AM

As long as people don't question DMM persist, the discussion is fruitless.

Ah well, just a little hint to really, really think through it:

Eh... Its generally very difficult to argue about designer intent since there is very little beyond the rule books to guess what was actually intended.

For example, I could say that DMM is clearly intended to provide Clerics with discount metamagics. Everything in the the rules point in that direction. And since Clerics also clearly rely on buffs (rendering other metamagics like empower and maximize metamagic mostly useless), I could also argue that the designer intent was clearly so that they could apply DMM to buffs.

You might try and counter that if that was the case, then Cleric Buff Durations would not be so short in PHB.

But the thing to keep in mind is that the game designers are not a homogenous bunch of folks: the guys who decided to make cleric duration short buffs in PHB, are NOT necessarily the same bunch of guys who designed DMM. If you compare the PHB and Complete Divine (where DMM comes from) book credits, you will see some common names, but many different people as well.

And in that case we would BOTH be right. The designers of PHB might have intended Cleric duration to be short, while the designers of Complete Divine clearly intended Cleric buffs to have discount metamagics.

However, rules in later books take precedence over rules in older books. This is reflected e.g. in the fact that various spells from previous books were reprinted and modified in the Spell Compendium (e.g. Delay Death). Hence, I could argue that the same thing applies to intent, and Complete Divine being the newer book, would have precedence over Core.

Additionally, even if it was the same guy who designed both short cleric duration buffs in PHB, and DMM in complete divine, I could also argue that his intent might have changed over time. And again, the newer book takes precedence over the older one.

Invader

2012-05-13, 09:39 AM

eggynack

2012-05-13, 10:39 AM

Unless you ditch your dex and str.

Level 4 druid with 8 dex has a reflex of 0.

Generally you want to dump dex but that doesn't mean going to extremes like that. Dumping strength is a much better proposition, and at low levels charisma is a decent dump stat as well. It's not as perfect as dex is with wildshape, but unless you consider wild empathy to be a major class feature dex is better than cha in games starting at low level. The point here is that druids start out very SAD and end up ridiculously SAD. Compare them to a cleric, who needs the same basic wisdom and constitution but never replaces their strength and dex and thus have to keep those scores even higher. In addition, cha is an even more useful stat for them due to turning. I don't think I'd ever build a druid at level one with a dex mod of 8. It won't be massive, but I'm not going into a game with a penalty to a stat that important.

In addition, your contention that druids are underpowered to the point of liability at low levels is patently ridiculous. Entangle is one of the best spells in the game for its level, and can shut down most encounters to the point where it becomes a matter of cleanup. The animal companion is also at its best at these levels. Compare a riding dog to the average melee guy at that level, and note that its the less powerful thing the druid is doing. The druid may not be able to go toe to toe in melee at those levels (though the animal companion can obviously contribute) but I consider them to be one of the best low level classes in the game.

Melnir

2012-05-13, 02:38 PM

if the designers would like to see a cleric using his main self-buffs all day long, why did they put a short duration tag on those spells?
If the designers wouldn't be cautious about 24-hour-buffs, why would they put a hefty metamagic price tag on persistant spell?

If the designers would not care about the maximum metamagic modifier you could apply, why would they limit those modifiers up to the spell level you can actually cast?

And why did they specify those things in metamagic song feat? What you write is just what you think, not what is written in books.

Gandariel

2012-05-13, 04:52 PM

snip
What ?

Druid is THE best class, in the first few levels.
You ditch Str and Dex? Well, alright.
Take augment summoning and Greenbound summoning. You have now won.
But okay, greenbound is maybe too strong. Ashbound?
Just summon a hippogrif or whatever and have it kill stuff.

Your animal companion?
At level three your dog has 4HD, increased Str/Con/AC and Evasion. Toss a Produce flame on it (and incidentally yourself) and kill everyone.

Also, at level four you can switch your animal. Even if you don't want dinosaurs, take the Dire Eagle from Races of Stone.
Take natural bond, now the eagle has 2 bonus HD (and other stuff).
At fourth level your animal companion has 7 HD (It gains a feat at 6HD, have it take Improved Grapple)
check out its stats: three attacks, +20 Spot, good grapple mod, great speed, good AC, and reach.

Just with summons and the Animal companion you're the best class, at least at these levels.
AND you get other great spells too!

Now what can your cleric do, which is so stronger than all of this?

I really don't see how you think druids are weak in the first few levels.

Also, can we get back on topic? spell lists! =)

Draz74

2012-05-13, 11:20 PM

eggynack

2012-05-14, 01:27 AM

I think the Cleric list wins in Core, but the Druid list pulls ahead with splats.

I don't recall any non-Core Cleric spells that can compete with the "win" that is (2) Blinding Spittle, Kelpstrand, Heart of Air, Mass Snake's Swiftness, (3) Heart of Water, Venomfire, (4) Heart of Earth, Last Breath, (5) Heart of Fire, Panacea, Owl's Insight, Bite of the Weretiger, Unicorn Blood, Cloak of the Sea, (6) Bite of the Werebear, Drown, (7) Unicorn Heart, (9) Nature's Avatar.

(Yes, I know the Cleric gets Panacea too, and at a lower level. But it doesn't increase the Cleric's versatility as much as it does for the Druid, since the Cleric already had e.g. Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Paralysis, etc.)

That list is pretty good, but I don't really consider any of the heart of x spells that useful apart from heart of water. That spell is pretty much perfect, giving a great immunity whenever you need it, and a decent ability when you don't. The four spell combo is useful for the captain planet powers, but the other spells are pretty mediocre without it. I also think that primal instincts is worth putting on that list at 3rd. +5 initiative is really good at 3rd level all day, and for an extra second level slot you can use primal hunter for uncanny dodge, which replicates alot of the heart combo's functionality.

Gandariel

2012-05-14, 01:47 AM

Well, ninth level spells are clearly a point for the cleric: his list is: "whatever the druid gets, plus mass heal, miracle and gate"

Endarire

2012-05-14, 01:51 AM

Part of it is opinion. Part of it is context.

I've played Druids and Clerics. Both depend on being a caster plus a melee dude or summoner or archer. Until level 6 spells, Druids are probably ahead. (Go, go summonlings!) Then Clerics get heal and harm. (They already know plane shift.)

From there, it depends. It's rare that people play at levels 12+. Going all the way, a Cleric gets native access to gate, and can learn time stop, shapechange, and other spiffy L9s via domains. A Druid can too, with the Contemplative PrC (Complete Divine), and be on similar ground as a Cleric.

Also, Druids get the very long undispellable Wild Shape while the closest thing Clerics have is Persistent buffs. Wild Shape isn't a spell, but it is magical and it's kinda like polymorph.

Overall? It depends.

eggynack

2012-05-14, 02:32 AM

Until level 6 spells, Druids are probably ahead. (Go, go summonlings!)

I think that SNA actually tops out at 6th level spells with huge elementals (or even orglashes and thomils if you're built for that). 16 hit die creatures are pretty insane compared to the competition. That's also the level with oreads which are just consistently excellent. Casting an 8th level spell out of a 6th level slot generally is. At 7th, the list starts toning itself down with greater elementals, but until then there is some serious awesomeness, especially if you're built for summoning.

Draz74

2012-05-14, 02:43 AM

Well, ninth level spells are clearly a point for the cleric: his list is: "whatever the druid gets, plus mass heal, miracle and gate"

Eh. Shapechange is about equal with Gate.

Nature's Avatar might be just as good as Mass Heal is at least another awesome L9 Druid-only spell.

Miracle ... yeah, I don't think Druid can match that one at all (except by abusing Shapechange, which I already counted elsewhere). So you're right, ninth level spells are a point for Cleric.

But not by THAT much.

That list is pretty good, but I don't really consider any of the heart of x spells that useful apart from heart of water. That spell is pretty much perfect, giving a great immunity whenever you need it, and a decent ability when you don't. The four spell combo is useful for the captain planet powers, but the other spells are pretty mediocre without it.
You're right, the other three aren't awesome individually. I was thinking of the four-spell combo when I put them on the list.

I also think that primal instincts is worth putting on that list at 3rd. +5 initiative is really good at 3rd level all day, and for an extra second level slot you can use primal hunter for uncanny dodge, which replicates alot of the heart combo's functionality.
Apparently I need to look into that one ...

EDIT: (3) Bottle of Smoke is also a candidate for that list.

Killer Angel

2012-05-14, 02:58 AM

Part of it is opinion. Part of it is context.

Yeah, the basic point is: what do you need to do?
Sometime, cleric is better, sometime druid wins.

Melnir

2012-05-14, 05:14 AM

Eh. Shapechange is about equal with Gate.

Nature's Avatar might be just as good as Mass Heal is at least another awesome L9 Druid-only spell.

Miracle ... yeah, I don't think Druid can match that one at all (except by abusing Shapechange, which I already counted elsewhere). So you're right, ninth level spells are a point for Cleric.

But not by THAT much.

A cleric can easily get shapechange and other awesome domain only spells (choose destiny and animate city?) plus the best 9th level wizard spells (time stop, maw of chaos...). Level 9 cleric list is the best IMO.

candycorn

2012-05-14, 05:36 AM

What ?

Druid is THE best class, in the first few levels.
You ditch Str and Dex? Well, alright.
Take augment summoning and Greenbound summoning. You have now won.
Ok, first, you're human, having 2 feats.

Round 1 of combat, for a level 2 character, vs a pair of CR 1 Orc Barbarians with Falchions and improved initiative.

Orcs have a dex of 14, and a str of 15 (19 after racial), and a con of 13.
Orcs win initiative. Orcs rage and charge. Each orc has a +9 to hit, for 2d4+9 damage (average 14, vs druid HP of 20).

Let's say only one attack hits the druid, for minimum damage of 11.

Druid takes a 5 foot step back, and starts casting his SNA spell.

Round 2.

Orcs move and attack again. +7 to hit now. I'd say the odds of the druid making a DC 21 concentration are less than 50%, but the second hit has rendered the druid unconscious.

Now what's the problem here? Without someone carrying the brunt of combat at low levels, the druid is dead. Just dead. Low AC, last to act, and a spell that takes a full round to cast? No. You're deluded. The above combat will play out for all generally open terrain where combat starts at 85 feet or less (i.e. most combat). And it's entirely possible that the level 2 druid, with leather armor and heavy wooden shield (AC 13) will be killed outright before even acting, above.

At low levels, low AC and poor initiative are dangerous. Put both on the same chassis, and expect a long casting time spell to save you? Most enemies will act twice before you act once.

And the answer to how overpowered a greenbound summon is?
Not at all, if you never get to cast it, due to suffering from a case of bleeding out on the ground, brought on by a sudden onset of pointy sticks.

But okay, greenbound is maybe too strong. Ashbound?
Just summon a hippogrif or whatever and have it kill stuff. be dead before you finish casting the spell, due to your abysmal AC, and the fact that you're always the last one to act.FTFY.

Your animal companion?
At level three your dog has 4HD, increased Str/Con/AC and Evasion. Toss a Produce flame on it (and incidentally yourself) and kill everyone.So, now we're getting into a viable tactic. Your spell doesn't have to wait until the end of round 2 to be effective. You still have a decent chance to die before acting, especially since your dog, at level 2, has low enough HP that the above CR 1 orcs will knock it out in one hit.

Also, at level four you can switch your animal. Even if you don't want dinosaurs, take the Dire Eagle from Races of Stone.
Take natural bond, now the eagle has 2 bonus HD (and other stuff).
At fourth level your animal companion has 7 HD (It gains a feat at 6HD, have it take Improved Grapple)... for it to have improved grapple, it would need improved unarmed strike... which it does not have.

That said, now you've finally got a viable companion. Shame that the cleric has been using those turn undeads, since level 1, to be viable.

check out its stats: three attacks, +20 Spot, good grapple mod, great speed, good AC, and reach.No reach, but otherwise, you're right.

Just with summons and the Animal companion you're the best class, at least at these levels.Nope. You've got a good AC at level 4. At level 1-3 you're a pincushion with a pincushion pet. You're less likely to survive than the wizard, who at least had the good sense to not put a freakin' 8 in Dex.

AND you get other great spells too!Let's see. Summons that, at level 1, take longer to cast than they get to stay... At level 2, they're actually able to influence a fight, after everyone else has attacked twice... and at level 3-4, they're able to contribute, if you count that everyone else has already done more in 2 rounds to end the fight than you'll hope to do in the 1-2 rounds it lasts after your summon gets there.

Now what can your cleric do, which is so stronger than all of this?With DMM Persist, along with decent armor, and a Dex modifier that is positive?

I'd say act before being brought to negative HP by attacks is a good trick.

I really don't see how you think druids are weak in the first few levels.Because 1 round cast time spells, with horrid AC, and being last to act? Leaves you vulnerable, unless the entire party exists solely to keep monsters from reaching you so that you can contribute.

Voyager_I

2012-05-14, 06:17 AM

JeminiZero

2012-05-14, 06:20 AM

I think the Cleric list wins in Core, but the Druid list pulls ahead with splats.

I don't recall any non-Core Cleric spells that can compete with the "win"

Perhaps I might be able to provide some solid non-core Cleric spells:

{table]Level | Druid Only | Cleric Only | Both but Druid Stronger | Both but Cleric Stronger
1 | - | Resurgence |
2 | Blinding Spittle, Kelpstrand, Heart of Air, Mass Snake's Swiftness | Substitute Domain, Adept Spirit |
3 | Heart of Water | Sonorous Hum, Mass Resurgence | Venomfire (Cleric gets it at same level but generally lacks Wildshape/Animal Companion to fully abuse it) | Chain of Eyes (Druid gets it 1 level late), Mass Lesser Vigor (Clerics can DMM persist on the whole party)
4 | Heart of Earth, Last Breath | Summon Undead 4 (Allip), Sacred/Profane Item (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13206080#post13206080), Dampen Magic, Revenance (combo with Revivify), Consumptive Field* | Boreal Winds (Cleric gets it 1 level late) | Panacea (Druid gets this 1 level late), Wall of Sand (Druid gets this 1 level late, and lacks Sonorous Hum)
5 | Heart of Fire, Owl's Insight, Bite of the Weretiger, Unicorn Blood, Cloak of the Sea | Summon Undead 5 (Shadows), Revivify, Surge of Fortune
6 | Bite of the Werebear, Drown | Eyes of the Oracle
7 | Unicorn Heart | Renewal Pact, Mass Spell Resistance
8 | - | Chain Dispel, Veil of Undeath | | Mass Death Ward (Druid gets it 1 level late)
9 | Nature's Avatar | | | Summon Elemental Monolith (Druids lack Sonorous Hum)[/table]

*Consumptive Field: Admittedly, this one needs DMM persist to really work. But if you do DMM persist it, having a strength of "out-grapple-the-Tarrasque", and a caster level of "you-cannot-dispel-me-and-drop-dead-when-I-cast-holy-word" is a lot like an I-WIN button.

LordBlades

2012-05-14, 06:24 AM

Ok, first, you're human, having 2 feats.

Round 1 of combat, for a level 2 character, vs a pair of CR 1 Orc Barbarians with Falchions and improved initiative.

Orcs have a dex of 14, and a str of 15 (19 after racial), and a con of 13.
Orcs win initiative. Orcs rage and charge. Each orc has a +9 to hit, for 2d4+9 damage (average 14, vs druid HP of 20).

Let's say only one attack hits the druid, for minimum damage of 11.

Druid takes a 5 foot step back, and starts casting his SNA spell.

Druid has spot&listen as class skills and is completely wis focused, so he probably sees the orcs first. And that means the Riding Dog will be between him and the orcs. So even if they win initative, they'll be charging vs a Riding dog with 20 AC (war trained with chain shirt barding). At +9 that's below 50% chance to hit. Orcs attack the riding dog, assuming for some reason the battle started withing 80 ft or run toward it uselessly if not. Druid casts Entangle. DC is 15 and orcs' Ref save is +2. Good luck.

PS: I like how you assume everybody fighting the druid has Improved initiative but the druid doesn't.

Round 2.

Orcs move and attack again. +7 to hit now. I'd say the odds of the druid making a DC 21 concentration are less than 50%, but the second hit has rendered the druid unconscious.

Round 2-combat end: druid and the rest of the party take pot-shots at the orcs trying to get free only to be entangled again next round.

Now what's the problem here? Without someone carrying the brunt of combat at low levels, the druid is dead. Just dead. Low AC, last to act, and a spell that takes a full round to cast? No. You're deluded. The above combat will play out for all generally open terrain where combat starts at 85 feet or less (i.e. most combat). And it's entirely possible that the level 2 druid, with leather armor and heavy wooden shield (AC 13) will be killed outright before even acting, above.

At low levels, low AC and poor initiative are dangerous. Put both on the same chassis, and expect a long casting time spell to save you? Most enemies will act twice before you act once.

Thats why you have an animal companion. Riding dog with studded leather barding can have 19 AC at level 1. What non-useless (aka no sword&board) melee has 19 AC at level ?

Also, if you're playing from level 1, don't go 18 wis 18 con, go 18 wis 16 con 14 dex. Easy. You put 8 dex if you start at level 5 or higher.

That said, now you've finally got a viable companion. Shame that the cleric has been using those turn undeads, since level 1, to be viable.

How exactly is Riding Dog not viable at level 1?

pincushion pet[/B]. You're less likely to survive than the wizard, who at least had the good sense to not put a freakin' 8 in Dex.

Have you ever done the math for Riding Dog AC???

candycorn

2012-05-14, 07:08 AM

So, a solitary druid against a pair of the most notorious player-killing opponents you can find in the first few levels will likely die if the encounter starts inside charge range and he doesn't make use of even basic tactics like walking behind his animal companion?People are talking about Greenbound summoning, and you have an issue with... Orcs with pointy sticks? Honestly, if your argument is, "but but you made the monsters too MEAN", then you're relying on the kindness of your DM. If it's, "but I'm all ALONE", then you're relying on the charity of your party. If druid + greenbound is as awesome as is claimed, a few CR 1 Core only Tier 3 class creatures shouldn't even cause it to break a sweat.

Because, y'know, if he gets a turn to act, then it's just Entangle followed by Produce Flame or SNA or whatever.I believe the argument was, "I have SNA and greenbound. Therefore, I win."

How much longer do you think a typical Cleric would last in the same scenario? Their Dex probably isn't above 10 given that there's four other stats they need, and if the Druid isn't even wearing Hide then I doubt they've got Plate at this point.Let's see. 32 PB.

Cleric Stats: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10
Armor: MW Breastplate, Heavy Shield
AC: 18.
DMM Persist Shield of Faith: AC 20

That alone starts things off on a more favorable footing. I avoided medium armor on the druid, because, given horrid AC and horrid initiative, the last thing I wanted to do is hobble the poor guy with horrid speed and armor that puts him at the very edge of light encumbrance by itself too. On the cleric, that's not as urgent an issue, as he doesn't have a horrid AC, and his initiative mod is at least positive.

Druid has spot&listen as class skills and is completely wis focused, so he probably sees the orcs first. And that means the Riding Dog will be between him and the orcs.
I assumed a classic "highwaymen engage road travelers" scenario. With that 8 intelligence, the druid has 4 total skills. Assuming they are spot, listen, concentration, and spellcraft, that gives the druid even odds to see a 12 dex orc hiding in the bushes at 80 feet. Which, incidentally, is about the distance I assumed the fight starts at.

So even if they win initative, they'll be charging vs a Riding dog with 20 AC (war trained with chain shirt barding). At +9 that's below 50% chance to hit. Orcs attack the riding dog, assuming for some reason the battle started withing 80 ft or run toward it uselessly if not. Druid casts Entangle. DC is 15 and orcs' Ref save is +2. Good luck.Assuming that all fights start at 100+ feet is a dangerous assumption. Also, assuming that the orcs don't run right past the flat footed dog to hit the intelligent dog handler? Another dangerous assumption.

PS: I like how you assume everybody fighting the druid has Improved initiative but the druid doesn't.It's one of my favorite feats to give NPC's, as it's easy, provides a tangible benefit, and doesn't require 6 hours scouring sourcebooks to build. I doubt I'm alone in this.

Round 2-combat end: druid and the rest of the party take pot-shots at the orcs trying to get free only to be entangled again next round.The argument provided was that all the druid had to do was summon something, and sit down. This seems like the core precept that I was refuting isn't being followed (as the course of action you are suggesting is neither a summon spell nor resting upon the druid's backside). Therefore, it's not a relevant rebuttal.

Thats why you have an animal companion. Riding dog with studded leather barding can have 19 AC at level 1. What non-useless (aka no sword&board) melee has 19 AC at level ?Sword and board isn't useless at this level. That's later. Honestly, I think shields pretty much come standard at level 1-2, unless you're a 2hander. And if you are, you have better than an 8 dex, when you're going on the front lines.

Also, if you're playing from level 1, don't go 18 wis 18 con, go 18 wis 16 con 14 dex. Easy. You put 8 dex if you start at level 5 or higher.And that's a much more reasonable argument. It's pretty much what I was TRYING to get people to see. "who cares about those stats, you're a druid" is answered with "a druid, at level 1-4".

How exactly is Riding Dog not viable at level 1?I'm saying that "I have a riding dog, so I can be a complete wuss and expect it to completely protect me with no other effort on my part" is not viable.

Have you ever done the math for Riding Dog AC???Yep. And I've also done the math for attack bonus and damage. It's not as big a threat as the human that handles it.

Melnir

2012-05-14, 07:32 AM

How much longer do you think a typical Cleric would last in the same scenario? Their Dex probably isn't above 10 given that there's four other stats they need, and if the Druid isn't even wearing Hide then I doubt they've got Plate at this point.

Cleric doesn't need 4 stats! Wisdom and constitution are enough!

eggynack

2012-05-14, 07:44 AM

I believe the argument was, "I have SNA and greenbound. Therefore, I win."

Actually, the arguement is somewhat more complex than you make it out to be. If the druid is actually in a situation where they can summon safely, then they can, and with greenbound that summons can do incredible damage to the enemies. That situation actually comes up more often then you give it credit for, given that a party traditionally contains more than a single druid, and even on his own he has an animal companion to hide behind. In a situation where summoning is stupid, which is a situation that does come up, they can cast anything they've prepared that day, which includes winners like the aforementioned entangle. The reason why summon nature's ally is so good is that it is useful in a number of situations, but you never actually have to cast it.
What is more likely to happen, given a solo combat, inexplicably lacking an animal companion, is that the druid will take the first turn entangling the enemy, giving him plenty of time to distance himself from it. After that, the druid can theoretically cast a summoned creature augmented with greenbound summoning, but they don't have to. Greenbound summoning is incredibly good, especially at first level, but it doesn't force the druid to do nothing but use greenbound summoning. The idea that a druid isn't incredibly powerful at first level, let alone a burden to the party, is patently ridiculous. A druid is even highly powerful given your stat restrictions, though at early levels it might be a good idea to hang towards the back of the party.

eggynack

2012-05-14, 09:30 AM

Cleric Stats: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10
Armor: MW Breastplate, Heavy Shield
AC: 18.
DMM Persist Shield of Faith: AC 20

One problem here is that you're not making the same optimal decisions for the cleric that you made for the druid. While a druid takes low scores in strength and dex because they get replaced by wildshape later, any optimized cleric worth his salt goes cloistered because the base attack bonus gets replaced by dmm persisted divine power. A cleric as "well constructed" as the druid you built for the battle wouldn't have access to breastplate, a heavy shield, or have the druid's average bab.
Moreover, compare the stats of the cleric to those of a riding dog with armor at that level. The riding dog has one less ac, and one +1 to attack compared to the cleric (and even that required losing out on cloistered cleric and a spell slot). Moreover, the riding dog has its fancy tripping ability, higher speed and a slightly higher damage. The cleric you've constructed basically comes up a bit below even against one of the druid's class features, and that's at the riding dog's worst level. At level 1, the cleric has somewhat lower chances of success. The druid is incredible at low levels, and that's true even if it's stunted by aspirations towards future awesomeness.

candycorn

2012-05-14, 09:38 AM

One problem here is that you're not making the same optimal decisions for the cleric that you made for the druid. While a druid takes low scores in strength and dex because they get replaced by wildshape later, any optimized cleric worth his salt goes cloistered because the base attack bonus gets replaced by dmm persisted divine power. A cleric as "well constructed" as the druid you built for the battle wouldn't have access to breastplate, a heavy shield, or have the druid's average bab.
A cleric as "well constructed" as a level 1-4 druid with an 8 dex would be running around in nothing more than clothing attempting to hit creatures with a wet noodle. The "optimal" choice, IMO, for a low level druid is having a frickin' dex higher than 8, but no higher than 14, as that can be attained with minimal investment.

Also, a cloistered cleric can still wear breastplate. It just must relegate itself to a defensive support role at lower levels. Bless, etc. But it can do that because then it's just DMM Persist Sanctuary, and focus on providing flank bonuses after casting spells to aid allies.

Moreover, compare the stats of the cleric to those of a riding dog with armor at that level. The riding dog has one less ac, and one +1 to attack compared to the cleric (and even that required losing out on cloistered cleric and a spell slot).And an inability to act independently.

Moreover, the riding dog has its fancy tripping ability, higher speed and a slightly higher damage. The cleric you've constructed basically comes up a bit below even against one of the druid's class features, and that's at the riding dog's worst level.If you discount the fact that the cleric has... I don't know... Spells? And that those spells are on a frame that's actually a challenge to hit?

It's the difference between having a fully buffed fighter, and a wizard with no defenses... and having a fully buffed wizard. In the former example, the wizard (the bulk of the ability) can be easily killed, rendering the fighter (the bulk of the defense) irrelevant. In the latter, killing the bulk of the ability requires overcoming the bulk of the defenses... rather than simply avoiding them.

At level 1, the cleric has somewhat lower chances of success. The druid is incredible at low levels, and that's true even if it's stunted by aspirations towards future awesomeness.
Incredibly bad, perhaps, when hobbled by gazing starry-eyed at level 20, while the CR 1 orc is eating its face off.

EDIT: Look, I'm not saying druid is bad. It's not. It is, after all, tier 1. But many people are giving advice bordering on "who cares about surviving to level 5? Who cares about actually having any defenses that are worth a damn? Who cares about any of that? Druid is so easy that if you don't just pour everything you have into Con and Wis, and take natural spell, you suck. No, Druid is the best melee ever, and all you have to do is show up and try to hold back, to let the rest of those pathetic party members of yours feel like they're doing something."

And that advice is total rubbish. Any game I've played in/ran, if there were someone sitting around at level 1-4 with an AC of "terribad", casting spells, then that character would be targeted pretty quickly.

And in the case of that terribad character, that means time sitting out of the game, making a SECOND character, after your first one dies.

eggynack

2012-05-14, 10:07 AM

A cleric as "well constructed" as a level 1-4 druid with an 8 dex would be running around in nothing more than clothing attempting to hit creatures with a wet noodle. The "optimal" choice, IMO, for a low level druid is having a frickin' dex higher than 8, but no higher than 14, as that can be attained with minimal investment.

Also, a cloistered cleric can still wear breastplate. It just must relegate itself to a defensive support role at lower levels. Bless, etc. But it can do that because then it's just DMM Persist Sanctuary, and focus on providing flank bonuses after casting spells to aid allies.
And an inability to act independently.
If you discount the fact that the cleric has... I don't know... Spells? And that those spells are on a frame that's actually a challenge to hit?

It's the difference between having a fully buffed fighter, and a wizard with no defenses... and having a fully buffed wizard. In the former example, the wizard (the bulk of the ability) can be easily killed, rendering the fighter (the bulk of the defense) irrelevant. In the latter, killing the bulk of the ability requires overcoming the bulk of the defenses... rather than simply avoiding them.

Incredibly bad, perhaps, when hobbled by gazing starry-eyed at level 20, while the CR 1 orc is eating its face off.

EDIT: Look, I'm not saying druid is bad. It's not. It is, after all, tier 1. But many people are giving advice bordering on "who cares about surviving to level 5? Who cares about actually having any defenses that are worth a damn? Who cares about any of that? Druid is so easy that if you don't just pour everything you have into Con and Wis, and take natural spell, you suck. No, Druid is the best melee ever, and all you have to do is show up and try to hold back, to let the rest of those pathetic party members of yours feel like they're doing something."

And that advice is total rubbish. Any game I've played in/ran, if there were someone sitting around at level 1-4 with an AC of "terribad", casting spells, then that character would be targeted pretty quickly.

And in the case of that terribad character, that means time sitting out of the game, making a SECOND character, after your first one dies.
Clerics do have spells, but so does a druid. My point is that if you subtract the thing that makes the class useful, you end up with a useless class. If you're in a situation where summon nature's ally isn't good, then that's fine because it just so happens that they've prepared other spells. A druid with 8 dex isn't as good as one with something higher, but it's better than most classes are at that level. You're not building the druid too suboptimally, you're playing it suboptimally. If you see a pair of level 1 orc barbarians, that's your cue to cast entangle, and the druid prepared entangle because he's not stupid. I can't think of a cleric spell at first level that has as profound an impact on that combat as entangle. You take a five foot step back, shoot it at the barbarians, then run away. After that you can put the dog between you and the enemy, and if you really want to, summon to your heart's content. A second level druid with your specifications can easily take on that combat if played intelligently. At third level, second level spells and animal companion advancement happen, and the druid is soaring high on an airship of awesome. Levels 1-4 are great for a druid, it's just that you're not playing the druid efficiently.

LordBlades

2012-05-14, 10:34 AM

EDIT: Look, I'm not saying druid is bad. It's not. It is, after all, tier 1. But many people are giving advice bordering on "who cares about surviving to level 5? Who cares about actually having any defenses that are worth a damn? Who cares about any of that? Druid is so easy that if you don't just pour everything you have into Con and Wis, and take natural spell, you suck. No, Druid is the best melee ever, and all you have to do is show up and try to hold back, to let the rest of those pathetic party members of yours feel like they're doing something."

And that advice is total rubbish. Any game I've played in/ran, if there were someone sitting around at level 1-4 with an AC of "terribad", casting spells, then that character would be targeted pretty quickly.

And in the case of that terribad character, that means time sitting out of the game, making a SECOND character, after your first one dies.

First of all, I doubt anyone is really advocating going all Wis and Con if you're not starting at level 5 and above, especially given how trivial it is to get 14 dex.

Secondly, you make it seem that a dex 8 druid sitting in the back of the group slinging spells is the most obvious target and 100% of the monsters will go straight for it. And frankly I disagree, unless the average party is something like 3 full plate+tower shield fighters and druid.

What does the average monster see? Some dude in medium armor (Hide) and with a rather big shield (heavy wooden) doing some magical mumbo-jumbo, and in order to get him he'd have to run past at least a couple other party members. Meanwhile there might be one or more less armored dudes agitating various pointy things in front of him (apart from Crusader and Fighter, the other melee would wear either light or medium armor, and often have no shield either due to two-handed weapons, twf and the like), and there might be one or more much less armored guys (in robes) doing the same magical mumbo-jumbo the druid is doing.

Draz74

2012-05-14, 11:12 AM

A cleric can easily get shapechange and other awesome domain only spells (choose destiny and animate city?) plus the best 9th level wizard spells (time stop, maw of chaos...). Level 9 cleric list is the best IMO.

Yeah, a Cleric can easily get all the good L9 spells ... and cast ONE of them per day. Domain access to a spell isn't the same as normal access.

LordBlades

2012-05-14, 11:34 AM

Regarding Shapechange, if you go with the most optimization-friendly reading (you get spells from it) druid comes out ahead. He can get cleric spells via Solar, and wizard spells via Black Ethergaunt, but afaik there's no creature that a cleric with Shapechange could use to gain Druid spells.

Melnir

2012-05-14, 12:32 PM

Yeah, a Cleric can easily get all the good L9 spells ... and cast ONE of them per day. Domain access to a spell isn't the same as normal access.

Sorry, what? Why do you think they created spontaneous domain acf, spontaneous domains and spontaneous domain divine feat? Do you think that if I get 5 domains + divine magician (that adds spells to your spell list so no limit) I will be able to cast only one domain spell? It's like saying "druid can't cast spell while wildshaping"!

Regarding Shapechange, if you go with the most optimization-friendly reading (you get spells from it) druid comes out ahead. He can get cleric spells via Solar, and wizard spells via Black Ethergaunt, but afaik there's no creature that a cleric with Shapechange could use to gain Druid spells.

True. So? How long can druid use shapechange? How long can I cleric do it?

eggynack

2012-05-14, 12:46 PM

This aspect of the arguement is at least a little ridiculous. Cleric level 9 spells are better. It doesn't actually matter because games don't often reach level 17, and any caster at that level is breaking the game in infinite wonderful ways, The exact ways you're breaking the game don't matter quite so much.

Gandariel

2012-05-14, 01:16 PM

Draz74

2012-05-14, 01:37 PM

Sorry, what? Why do you think they created spontaneous domain acf, spontaneous domains and spontaneous domain divine feat? Do you think that if I get 5 domains + divine magician (that adds spells to your spell list so no limit) I will be able to cast only one domain spell? It's like saying "druid can't cast spell while wildshaping"!
I was forgetting Divine Magician, I'll admit. But all of these options come with a cost, and even with all of them, the Cleric gets to use a wbole three L9 spells per day that aren't on his normal list. Yeah, that's pretty powerful ... but not as impressive as your earlier post made it sound.

This aspect of the arguement is at least a little ridiculous. Cleric level 9 spells are better. It doesn't actually matter because games don't often reach level 17, and any caster at that level is breaking the game in infinite wonderful ways, The exact ways you're breaking the game don't matter quite so much.
Good point. I think we're all in agreement that Cleric wins at Level 9 spells; just the degree of "win" is in dispute, and that's not an argument I really want to spend more time on.

eggynack

2012-05-14, 01:44 PM

One problem with this debate is the whole shrodinger's domain issue. For example, it's recently been assumed that clerics have access to shapechange, but that's predicated on the cleric taking the animal domain which seems a bit unlikely. A dmm persist cleric is highly likely to take planning for extend spell and knowledge from cloistered cleric. That only leaves one domain. I'm not sure what the best third domain is, but despite animal devotion being decent I doubt that it's the optimal choice. I might be mistaken though: I'm not highly familiar with domain optimization. either way, domains grant the cleric alot of diversity in build construction, but the actual gameplay versatility has a limit. There should be some sort of consensus as to what the domains should be, because if we're just assuming clerics have all of the best ones without prestige classing, then they clearly have superior spell access.

Gandariel

2012-05-14, 02:01 PM

Since all the arguments for the Cleric side have been:
I use DMM:Something and ???

And since all most DMM clerics take Planning(Extend spell) and Undeath(Extra Turning), i think we should go with them.

(Also Cloistered clerics get the Knowledge domain for free)

Actually, i personally like the Travel domain (it's Core, it has a wounderful special ability, and great spells in it)
Anyway i know there are ways to get more domains, and there is the Substitute domain spell (Although you can't, like, substitute Planning or Undeath, or you'll lose your precious DMM)

eggynack

2012-05-14, 02:05 PM

Undeath is the second one I usually hear associated with the build. I wonder if dipping contemplative is in the cards for this build. Even if it is, I somehow doubt that the animal domain is on the list of must haves with excellent domains like travel and spell kicking around. Thus I'm pretty sure that druids are better at shapechanging by virtue of actually being able to cast the spell.

Melnir

2012-05-14, 02:56 PM

I was forgetting Divine Magician, I'll admit. But all of these options come with a cost, and even with all of them, the Cleric gets to use a wbole three L9 spells per day that aren't on his normal list. Yeah, that's pretty powerful ... but not as impressive as your earlier post made it sound.

No, by taking spontaneous domain acf anf spontaneous domain feat three times you can cast spontaneously spells from 4 domains (you have to spend turning attmpts, yes). Casting spontaneously is so much better than preparing. So I can prepare gate, miracle and so on and then say "oh well, I need it. Shapechange (or timestop or anything else)."

Yes, the cost is three feats (+ 3/4 extra turning) but you're an amazingly versatile spellcaster, way much better than druid!

One problem with this debate is the whole shrodinger's domain issue. For example, it's recently been assumed that clerics have access to shapechange, but that's predicated on the cleric taking the animal domain which seems a bit unlikely. A dmm persist cleric is highly likely to take planning for extend spell and knowledge from cloistered cleric. That only leaves one domain. I'm not sure what the best third domain is, but despite animal devotion being decent I doubt that it's the optimal choice. I might be mistaken though: I'm not highly familiar with domain optimization. either way, domains grant the cleric alot of diversity in build construction, but the actual gameplay versatility has a limit. There should be some sort of consensus as to what the domains should be, because if we're just assuming clerics have all of the best ones without prestige classing, then they clearly have superior spell access.

Since all the arguments for the Cleric side have been:
I use DMM:Something and ???

And since all most DMM clerics take Planning(Extend spell) and Undeath(Extra Turning), i think we should go with them.

(Also Cloistered clerics get the Knowledge domain for free)

Actually, i personally like the Travel domain (it's Core, it has a wounderful special ability, and great spells in it)
Anyway i know there are ways to get more domains, and there is the Substitute domain spell (Although you can't, like, substitute Planning or Undeath, or you'll lose your precious DMM)

Undeath is the second one I usually hear associated with the build. I wonder if dipping contemplative is in the cards for this build. Even if it is, I somehow doubt that the animal domain is on the list of must haves with excellent domains like travel and spell kicking around. Thus I'm pretty sure that druids are better at shapechanging by virtue of actually being able to cast the spell.

Contemplative? Divine disciple? Seeker of the misty isle? Pelor radiant servant? Ordained champion? Singer of concordance? Do I really have to say Sovereign speaker?

Guys, if you want you can easily get plenty of domains, look:

Cloistered cleric 3/church inquisitor 1/ranger 1/seeker of the misty isle 7/contemplative 6/divine oracle 1/divine disciple 1

Good deities: Olidammara (trickery, celerity, sloth, mind, city), Cyric (envy, illusion, pride, trickery), Gargauth (charm, envy, pride, sloth, trickery), Mask (trickery, sloth, luck, city), Oghma (trickery, pride, luck, charm), Sharess (charm, envy, sloth, trickery), Mockery (trickery, pride, illusion, envy, domination), Chronepsis (time, planning, fate, dragon), St. Cuthbert (destiny, domination, protection), Horus-Re (destiny, pride, sun), Undying Court (destiny, fate, planning, protection), Pelor (destiny, sun, pride), Gond (city, planning, pride), Waukeen (city, pride, protection, sloth), Finder Wyvernspur (charm, pride, renewal, sloth).

You get: 2 domains (1st level)+knowledge (cloistered)+inquisition (church inquisitor)+magic and travel (SotMI)+2 domains (contemplative)+ oracle (divine oracle)+1 domain (divine disciple)=5 domains on your choice + 5 other domains.

You are an elf, you are a cleric of Undying court so you get: fate, destiny, planning, protection, divine magician, knowledge, inquisition, magic, travel, oracle.

You can choose to play a changeling so you have access to tranformation domain trading it with travel and magic (no SotMI for poor changelings). It might be a good choice, transformation is awesome (9 domains instead of 10).

BTW, there's no deity I know which has planning and undeath, so you usually don't have both. Anyway it's better if you can play a cleric in Eberron or choose domains as you want to drop undeath and take one of those domains with a crazy 9th level spell to persist like destiny, city (it's amazingly awesome, in a city campaign is one of top 3's with transformation and trickery), transformation and so on (just forgetting, knowledge has foresight to persist, really bad spell).

Stop saying one slot and 3 domains, at least you will get 4.

Talya

2012-05-14, 03:00 PM

Tell me, how does that character fare at level 1-4?

More people play post-14 than pre-5, but since you ask:
At levels 1-4, the druid's AC is more likely to refers to Animal Companion, not their armor class. (That particular AC is tougher than the fighter, let alone the cleric.) If the druid is being attacked, you're probably doing it wrong.

Eonas

2012-05-14, 03:53 PM

Who has the best spell list: Druid or Cleric?

I like all fruits.

Spuddles

2012-05-14, 04:16 PM

Yes, the cost is three feats (+ 3/4 extra turning) but you're an amazingly versatile spellcaster, way much better than druid!

Shapechange gets you Wizard casting (ethergaunts, chronotryn), Druid casting (nymph), Sorcerer casting (rakshasa), Psion manifesting (ulitharid), and Cleric casting (Solar, Planetar, other good outsiders).

You actually don't even have to got that far with a druid. Aberrant Wildshape gets you the Extraordinary Attacks of aberrations you turn into. Guess what the innate spellcasting of an ethergaunt is?

I would never rule this, despite it being RAW, but then, I would never let night sticks stack.

And as long as we're stacking night sticks, druid can do exactly the same thing for the cost of a level or a 2nd level spell. And guess what? He still has a better spell list, widlshape, and animal companion.

Melnir

2012-05-14, 04:33 PM

Shapechange gets you Wizard casting (ethergaunts, chronotryn), Druid casting (nymph), Sorcerer casting (rakshasa), Psion manifesting (ulitharid), and Cleric casting (Solar, Planetar, other good outsiders).

You actually don't even have to got that far with a druid. Aberrant Wildshape gets you the Extraordinary Attacks of aberrations you turn into. Guess what the innate spellcasting of an ethergaunt is?

I would never rule this, despite it being RAW, but then, I would never let night sticks stack.

And as long as we're stacking night sticks, druid can do exactly the same thing for the cost of a level or a 2nd level spell. And guess what? He still has a better spell list, widlshape, and animal companion.

So you're saying "no one lets druid do this thing (also cleric can do it BTW) but I will argument as if the DM lets me do it". So can I say cheater of Mystra by now? You still need to prepare the spells when you shapechange in your new form so you need to rest/do what you need.
What I was saying is that you can easily get 5/6 good domains and with a few feats you become way more versatile than a druid. And usually a DM doesn't ban sponaneous domain but he might get angry if you do what you wrote and you need him to let nightsticks stack. Cleric can get great versatility in a very easy way, druids can't.

Voyager_I

2012-05-14, 04:43 PM

People are talking about Greenbound summoning, and you have an issue with... Orcs with pointy sticks? Honestly, if your argument is, "but but you made the monsters too MEAN", then you're relying on the kindness of your DM. If it's, "but I'm all ALONE", then you're relying on the charity of your party. If druid + greenbound is as awesome as is claimed, a few CR 1 Core only Tier 3 class creatures shouldn't even cause it to break a sweat.

Raging Level 1 Orc Barbarians wielding Falchions are the poster children for things that are liable to OHKO very low-level PCs. They're hardly trivial encounters, even if they're almost directly out of the PHB, and are highly capable of killing most level 2 characters, including your provided Cleric.

I believe the argument was, "I have SNA and greenbound. Therefore, I win."
Let's see. 32 PB.

Cleric Stats: Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 10
Armor: MW Breastplate, Heavy Shield
AC: 18.
DMM Persist Shield of Faith: AC 20

That alone starts things off on a more favorable footing. I avoided medium armor on the druid, because, given horrid AC and horrid initiative, the last thing I wanted to do is hobble the poor guy with horrid speed and armor that puts him at the very edge of light encumbrance by itself too. On the cleric, that's not as urgent an issue, as he doesn't have a horrid AC, and his initiative mod is at least positive.

So...how does your Cleric plan to win this fight, exactly? Yeah, he's got a better chance of surviving the charge to the face thanks to his AC (assuming the Animal Companion can't block it), but on the other hand, he's also relying on his whopping +2 to-hit modifier and 1d8+1 damage to actually kill the Orcs.

If a low-level Druid with Greenbound Summoning gets an action off, it's probably going to be deciding.

I assumed a classic "highwaymen engage road travelers" scenario. With that 8 intelligence, the druid has 4 total skills. Assuming they are spot, listen, concentration, and spellcraft, that gives the druid even odds to see a 12 dex orc hiding in the bushes at 80 feet. Which, incidentally, is about the distance I assumed the fight starts at.
Assuming that all fights start at 100+ feet is a dangerous assumption. Also, assuming that the orcs don't run right past the flat footed dog to hit the intelligent dog handler? Another dangerous assumption.

And your Cleric has two, making it even less likely that he's able to cover the basics while sparing anything for detection.

Oh, and here's an assumption for you; imagine the Druid has their Animal Companion scouting ahead? Yeah, the Orcs might be able to kill it, but ACs are replaceable.

The argument provided was that all the druid had to do was summon something, and sit down. This seems like the core precept that I was refuting isn't being followed (as the course of action you are suggesting is neither a summon spell nor resting upon the druid's backside). Therefore, it's not a relevant rebuttal.

That's a gross oversimplification of what people were actually saying and as far as I can gather has been presented only by you.

At Level 6, your Druid will basically never use their own body for anything, so there's simply no point in investing in Str and Dex. Nobody has been suggesting that as an optimal build for Druids that plan to spend any significant portion of their career as a mammalian biped.

Sword and board isn't useless at this level. That's later. Honestly, I think shields pretty much come standard at level 1-2, unless you're a 2hander. And if you are, you have better than an 8 dex, when you're going on the front lines.

I will agree to this much, at least. 2H only really takes over once Power Attack starts kicking.

And that's a much more reasonable argument. It's pretty much what I was TRYING to get people to see. "who cares about those stats, you're a druid" is answered with "a druid, at level 1-4".
I'm saying that "I have a riding dog, so I can be a complete wuss and expect it to completely protect me with no other effort on my part" is not viable.
Yep. And I've also done the math for attack bonus and damage. It's not as big a threat as the human that handles it.

Again, I believe everyone understands that ignoring Str and Dex is only recommended for Druids who are of a sufficiently high level that they will practically never use their natural Str and Dex scores.

Animal Companions and Greenbound Summoning are still amazing.

Spuddles

2012-05-14, 04:49 PM

So you're saying "no one lets druid do this thing (also cleric can do it BTW) but I will argument as if the DM lets me do it".

Who the hell lets night sticks stack? Show many how turn attempts you can get out of a build using only one night stick and 32pb (or 36 if you have to). I think I've gotten like... 40 maybe? At 7 turns a piece, that's 5 persisted spells.

And versatility? Greenbound and/or Rashemi Elemental Summoning with SNA has plenty of versatility, more than domain spontaneity. Not to mention the action advantage of a warbeast natrual bond fleshraker with venomfire. Unlike a cleric, a druid doesn't have to waste actions in combat swinging a weapon. That's what the shocktrooping dire lion is for.

candycorn

2012-05-14, 05:32 PM

A second level druid with your specifications can easily take on that combat if played intelligently. At third level, second level spells and animal companion advancement happen, and the druid is soaring high on an airship of awesome. Levels 1-4 are great for a druid, it's just that you're not playing the druid efficiently.Lose initiative > get attacked > Die. I can't see how intelligent play will improve that.

First of all, I doubt anyone is really advocating going all Wis and Con if you're not starting at level 5 and above, especially given how trivial it is to get 14 dex.It's been said. That's what I was disputing.

Secondly, you make it seem that a dex 8 druid sitting in the back of the group slinging spells is the most obvious target and 100% of the monsters will go straight for it. And frankly I disagree, unless the average party is something like 3 full plate+tower shield fighters and druid.So... your argument is that the druid is great... so long as he has a party of things in front of him?

And he doesn't need to be the primary target every time. It only takes once, and the 8 dex patheti-druid is on the wrong side of the flowerbed.

True. So? How long can druid use shapechange? How long can I cleric do it?DMM Persist Shapechange. Nuff said.

Raging Level 1 Orc Barbarians wielding Falchions are the poster children for things that are liable to OHKO very low-level PCs. They're hardly trivial encounters, even if they're almost directly out of the PHB, and are highly capable of killing most level 2 characters, including your provided Cleric.So, they're well built enemies, then? What's the argument here? That a 8 dex druid is great, so long as the barbarians are all gnomes, and the combats always play to his strengths?

I'd say that argument works in my favor.

So...how does your Cleric plan to win this fight, exactly? Yeah, he's got a better chance of surviving the charge to the face thanks to his AC (assuming the Animal Companion can't block it), but on the other hand, he's also relying on his whopping +2 to-hit modifier and 1d8+1 damage to actually kill the Orcs.The cleric, however, is BUILT as support at this level. AC just makes him live long enough to use it. By being hard to hit, he isn't focused on as much, which helps him keep others alive and support the party. It's about level 7 that the cleric shifts to an offensive role. The difference is, the cleric is more likely to REACH level 7, since he doesn't have a worse reaction time than a three toed sloth, whilst being simultaneously easier to hit than the horse he could ride.

If a low-level Druid with Greenbound Summoning gets an action off, it's probably going to be deciding.And that, given 14 encounters a level, is 56 chances for him to decide those fights... and only one or two times he needs to fail to be roadkill. Because the only time such a druid wouldn't get hammered is at a bar. Yay, all that con to the exclusion of all else is good for something!

And your Cleric has two, making it even less likely that he's able to cover the basics while sparing anything for detection.And the fight starting closer doesn't hurt him, because he can actually take an attack without folding like a chair.

Oh, and here's an assumption for you; imagine the Druid has their Animal Companion scouting ahead? Yeah, the Orcs might be able to kill it, but ACs are replaceable.Here's one for you. Party gets hit from behind. Might not happen every time, but it only needs to happen once. In 56 encounters. Now the animal companion will need listen checks to hear the handle animal commands to come back, and likely a round or two to get there. On top of the fact that the druid isn't going to be handling anything but his intestines before the end of round 1, due to initiative failures. So that means dog gets back round 2-3.

At Level 6, your Druid will basically never use their own body for anything, so there's simply no point in investing in Str and Dex. Nobody has been suggesting that as an optimal build for Druids that plan to spend any significant portion of their career as a mammalian biped.Level 1-5 is a "significant portion of their career". That means that there is nobody suggesting ever to do that?

Again, I believe everyone understands that ignoring Str and Dex is only recommended for Druids who are of a sufficiently high level that they will practically never use their natural Str and Dex scores.So... No druid at low levels should completely ignore Dex?

And all high level druids were once low level druids?

So... That would mean that no druids which survive to level 6 will have completely ignored dex.

Animal Companions and Greenbound Summoning are still amazing.Greenbound summoning is. Animal companion? Not really. They can outshine a mediocre fighter, but that's about it. In an optimized group, they're an afterthought. And if the DM optimizes to the party, a rather easily killed afterthought.

Spuddles

2012-05-14, 05:39 PM

The cleric, however, is BUILT as support at this level. AC just makes him live long enough to use it. By being hard to hit, he isn't focused on as much, which helps him keep others alive and support the party. It's about level 7 that the cleric shifts to an offensive role. The difference is, the cleric is more likely to REACH level 7, since he doesn't have a worse reaction time than a three toed sloth, whilst being simultaneously easier to hit than the horse he could ride.

Hahaha, built for support? Sitting at 20 AC waiting for something to crit you is "support"? Entangle is support. Having two pets, with scent, as scout and rearguard, is support. Summoning a greenbound wolf is support. Having the same AC as the wizard? Not support.

And that, given 14 encounters a level, is 56 chances for him to decide those fights... and only one or two times he needs to fail to be roadkill. Because the only time such a druid wouldn't get hammered is at a bar. Yay, all that con to the exclusion of all else is good for something!
And the fight starting closer doesn't hurt him, because he can actually take an attack without folding like a chair.
Here's one for you. Party gets hit from behind. Might not happen every time, but it only needs to happen once. In 56 encounters. Now the animal companion will need listen checks to hear the handle animal commands to come back, and likely a round or two to get there. On top of the fact that the druid isn't going to be handling anything but his intestines before the end of round 1, due to initiative failures. So that means dog gets back round 2-3.
Level 1-5 is a "significant portion of their career". That means that there is nobody suggesting ever to do that?
So... No druid at low levels should completely ignore Dex?

And then while you're doing your "support" thing, you get crit and you die. A smartly played druid is facing a hell of a lot fewer crits than your cleric. Why? Because he has two targets besides himself, and then 3 other party members he'll let fill in your, ah, "support" role. When something goes to attack him, he'll retreat, using a tower shield for cover, and a riding dog or horse or whatever for speed.

And all high level druids were once low level druids?

Only if you have to play levels before 6.

Greenbound summoning is. Animal companion? Not really. They can outshine a mediocre fighter, but that's about it. In an optimized group, they're an afterthought. And if the DM optimizes to the party, a rather easily killed afterthought.

Warbeast fleshraker. Better than all the party's melee.

Voyager_I

2012-05-14, 05:56 PM

So, they're well built enemies, then? What's the argument here? That a 8 dex druid is great, so long as the barbarians are all gnomes, and the combats always play to his strengths?

I'd say that argument works in my favor.

My argument is that you're taking a very lethal encounter, putting it up against a build that nobody recommended for that level, and then using the example as evidence in favor of your Cleric even though it also dies in this scenario.

The cleric, however, is BUILT as support at this level. AC just makes him live long enough to use it. By being hard to hit, he isn't focused on as much, which helps him keep others alive and support the party. It's about level 7 that the cleric shifts to an offensive role. The difference is, the cleric is more likely to REACH level 7, since he doesn't have a worse reaction time than a three toed sloth, whilst being simultaneously easier to hit than the horse he could ride.

So, your reasoning for why it's okay for your provided Cleric to die in your provided encounter is that the Cleric doesn't need to be good by himself since his real job is to support the party. This comparison is apparently using a completely different standard than the Druid, who does need to be good by himself, even though he could "support" the party by summoning massively CR-inappropriate animals to rampage through fights.

The Druid is certainly no harder to keep alive than a Wizard of a similar level, since this is still too soon for them to have all-day Mage Armor, his Con is going to be 16 or 18, and his hit die is twice their size.

Also, your Cleric isn't built as a support; all his feats are set into turning him into a DMM:Persist'ed Codzilla. He's just playing support right now because he can't kill anything yet.

And that, given 14 encounters a level, is 56 chances for him to decide those fights... and only one or two times he needs to fail to be roadkill. Because the only time such a druid wouldn't get hammered is at a bar. Yay, all that con to the exclusion of all else is good for something!
And the fight starting closer doesn't hurt him, because he can actually take an attack without folding like a chair.

The Druid isn't that squishy, especially if you do things like buy AC items better than non-magical Leather Armor.

Here's one for you. Party gets hit from behind. Might not happen every time, but it only needs to happen once. In 56 encounters. Now the animal companion will need listen checks to hear the handle animal commands to come back, and likely a round or two to get there. On top of the fact that the druid isn't going to be handling anything but his intestines before the end of round 1, due to initiative failures. So that means dog gets back round 2-3.

Yep, low-level PCs can die. Happens all the time to every class unless you get into absolutely ridiculous degrees of optimization. It's why many people prefer to pick up around the 4-5 mark. And, again, the 16-18 Con Druid doesn't die any easier than a Wizard, Sorcerer, or any other squishy mage that doesn't wear armor.

And "staying safe" does not mean "walking all the way at the back of the party to be picked off by any potential ambushers". I'm pretty sure that's specifically covered in the PHB of all places. Similarly, having your dog take point is not the same thing as sending it to roam so far ahead that it's no longer in contact with the party.

Level 1-5 is a "significant portion of their career". That means that there is nobody suggesting ever to do that?
So... No druid at low levels should completely ignore Dex?

And all high level druids were once low level druids?

So... That would mean that no druids which survive to level 6 will have completely ignored dex.

And I'm sure everyone who starts a high level campaign builds their characters if they had evolved organically from Level 1, rather than simply optimizing them for the level they'll actually be playing at.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Greenbound summoning is. Animal companion? Not really. They can outshine a mediocre fighter, but that's about it. In an optimized group, they're an afterthought. And if the DM optimizes to the party, a rather easily killed afterthought.

Having a class feature that's as strong as an entire other class is actually pretty cool.

eggynack

2012-05-14, 06:02 PM

Your argument is silly in this case. You seem to expect a druid to be able to solo difficult groups of enemies through some misguided belief that they're frontline fighters at those levels. Meanwhile, despite them basically having the same role at those levels, you have no expectations for the cleric to win the same fight, but illogically place them at a higher power level. Your idea that they can charge the druid to death on the first turn makes very little sense if the animal companion is in front of the druid, and that seems like a reasonable choice to make in a party with no other tank. You may as well claim that wizards at these levels are useless because they die in one hit to a pair of orc barbarians with improved initiative that go first no matter what. Moreover, you appear to have conflated putting a low score in dex with taking a penalty in the score. The first strategy is intelligent, while the second is one that I don't recall anyone claiming as good. A druid with 8 dexterity can definitely help in combat, but it won't be as good as one with higher dex. Also "So... your argument is that the druid is great... so long as he has a party of things in front of him?" well, yeah. It's a central tenant of D&D that you have party members, some of whom are good at standing in front of other party members. Without a friendly tank, wizards would be pretty terrible at first, even though they can end combat with a single spell.

Focusing on the combat situation though, you have it backwards. Assuming that the druid is using his animal companion as a makeshift tank, the druid actually wins the fight through the use of entangle, and whatever other spells he has, while the cleric most likely loses. A cleric with just first level spells has virtually nothing to stop the barbarian duo, while the druid can shut them down for awhile. Your cleric may have high survivability, but what is it actually contributing to combat?

JeminiZero

2012-05-14, 07:17 PM

Since all the arguments for the Cleric side have been:
I use DMM:Something and ???

And since all most DMM clerics take Planning(Extend spell) and Undeath(Extra Turning), i think we should go with them.

Besides what Melnir noted above, I would like to add that, planning is *more* common, since its needed from 1-20 to qualify for persist (and even, then not all cleric builds (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar) take it). Whereas extra turning (from Undeath) while undoubtedly useful, becomes redundant once you start stockpiling nightsticks. Hence the smarter route if you want it, would be to buy Extra Turning as a normal feat, and then retrain it later on.

More people play post-14 than pre-5

Actually that (again) depends on whose table you game at. In my *personal* experience the reverse is true.

eggynack

2012-05-14, 09:00 PM

Besides what Melnir noted above, I would like to add that, planning is *more* common, since its needed from 1-20 to qualify for persist (and even, then not all cleric builds (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar) take it). Whereas extra turning (from Undeath) while undoubtedly useful, becomes redundant once you start stockpiling nightsticks. Hence the smarter route if you want it, would be to buy Extra Turning as a normal feat, and then retrain it later on.

Actually that (again) depends on whose table you game at. In my *personal* experience the reverse is true.
That is somewhat true, though if you want to persist the maximum number of spells from first level then undeath is required. Still, I left the domain blank for a reason, so the slot is open if you think something is superior. Clerics can get alot of domains if they want, but I don't know if they want to. I rarely see cleric builds on these boards get more than 5 or so, and I think that at some point they become redundant. An absolute consensus on what the third domain slot should have is both unecessary and impossible, but some idea of what the right option would be is nice so that the druid is contending with one cleric build rather than one hundred. I accept that dmm persist is underneath the cheese threshold for this challenge, but I think nightstick stacking may be pushing the limit a bit. We should probably limit it to one for these purposes.

LordBlades

2012-05-15, 12:37 AM

So... your argument is that the druid is great... so long as he has a party of things in front of him?

No, my argument is that, in a party, even if a 8 dex druid has the lowest survival potential if targeted (although I disagree with this), he is quite low on the target priority list of many enemies, so he most likely isn't the guy with the lowest chance to survive the encounter.

And he doesn't need to be the primary target every time. It only takes once, and the 8 dex patheti-druid is on the wrong side of the flowerbed.

First of all, nobody's advocating 8 dex druids when starting at level 1, because the opportunity cost is too high.

Secondly, 8 dex druids aren't as terrible and 100% dead within a couple of encounters as you make them to be. An 8 dex druid with with Hide armor and Heavy Shield has an AC of 14. Compare that to let's say a wizard or sorc. At least at level 1-2 you can't afford to keep Mage Armor up all day, and neither can you afford +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirts. This means that for quite a bit of the day you're stuck with an AC of 10+dex. Also, you have d4 HD and no AC to act as a meat shield.

If making an 8 dex druid at level 1 is suicidal, making any kind of wizard is doubly so.

Also, regarding Improved Initiative, given the 'go first or die' nature of low-level (and not only low level) D&D, you're practically imposing it as a feat tax to the players.

Draz74

2012-05-15, 12:52 AM

If making an 8 dex druid at level 1 is suicidal, making any kind of wizard is doubly so.

Except for the broken Wizard build known as the "wannabe druid," who sells his spellbook and buys riding dogs and mules to fight his battles for him. :smalltongue: (Yes, even at Level 1, Wizard is THE most powerful class in the -game if enough cheese is allowed. Unless Pun-Pun is allowed and moves the Paladin to the top.)

LordBlades

2012-05-15, 01:11 AM

Except for the broken Wizard build known as the "wannabe druid," who sells his spellbook and buys riding dogs and mules hires war trolls at 30 gp/day to fight his battles for him. :smalltongue: (Yes, even at Level 1, Wizard is THE most powerful class in the -game if enough cheese is allowed. Unless Pun-Pun is allowed and moves the Paladin to the top.)

works even better

eggynack

2012-05-15, 01:22 AM

If making an 8 dex druid at level 1 is suicidal, making any kind of wizard is doubly so.

To be fair, a wizard can take abrupt jaunt giving him a pretty reasonable survival capacity at low levels. Granted, this only works once the wizard has acted in combat, but the ability is perfect for taking on a barbarian who just found out that you are a wizard and is out for blood. It's not perfect, but it is wonderful.

Melnir

2012-05-15, 04:26 AM

That is somewhat true, though if you want to persist the maximum number of spells from first level then undeath is required. Still, I left the domain blank for a reason, so the slot is open if you think something is superior. Clerics can get alot of domains if they want, but I don't know if they want to. I rarely see cleric builds on these boards get more than 5 or so, and I think that at some point they become redundant. An absolute consensus on what the third domain slot should have is both unecessary and impossible, but some idea of what the right option would be is nice so that the druid is contending with one cleric build rather than one hundred. I accept that dmm persist is underneath the cheese threshold for this challenge, but I think nightstick stacking may be pushing the limit a bit. We should probably limit it to one for these purposes.

In fact only a few cleric builds get plenty of domains, but I think we should in this case consider 5 domains: knowledge, planning, one between trickery/time/travel, one between scalykind/destiny/city, one between pride/pleasure/family/envy.

So we have knowledge, planning, one domain to get awesome spells, one to get at least one persistent awesome spell, one to get some a good domain power (pleasure/pride) or to get some more good spells (family/envy).

If we go changeling add transformation instead of pride/pleasure/family/envy. If you use divine magician (do it) you can drop trickery/time/travel or scalykind/destiny/city (the second one it you get transformation too, the first if you don't have it).

Gandariel

2012-05-15, 11:20 AM

candycorn

2012-05-15, 01:14 PM

No, my argument is that, in a party, even if a 8 dex druid has the lowest survival potential if targeted (although I disagree with this), he is quite low on the target priority list of many enemies, so he most likely isn't the guy with the lowest chance to survive the encounter.You are free to 'disagree with this'. You are wrong to do so, but you are free to.

But let's see. He's either lightly armored or fairly lightly armored, and in 100% of cases, armored in what amounts to be dead skin. If in the back of the party, he'll be first choice for any rear assault, especially animals, as again, he's a soft meat sack wearing beef jerky. If he's in the middle of the party, he's first choice for intelligent enemies, such as rogues/casters/tacticians, who can see someone who is being most protected as an asset that most needs protecting.

First of all, nobody's advocating 8 dex druids when starting at level 1, because the opportunity cost is too high.All druids start at level 1. If no druid who starts at level 1 should have 8 dex as a starting stat, then no druid should have 8 as a starting stat.

Secondly, 8 dex druids aren't as terrible and 100% dead within a couple of encounters as you make them to be. An 8 dex druid with with Hide armor and Heavy Shield has an AC of 14. Compare that to let's say a wizard or sorc. At least at level 1-2 you can't afford to keep Mage Armor up all day, and neither can you afford +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirts. This means that for quite a bit of the day you're stuck with an AC of 10+dex. Also, you have d4 HD and no AC to act as a meat shield.You certainly CAN have an AC as a Sorceror, should you choose to. You can also have abrupt jaunt as a wizard, if you choose to. In addition, positive dex modifier makes a wizard/sorceror less likely to go last, and more likely to be able to react with a spell before they're dead.

That said, wizards/sorcerors ARE vulnerable at low level. No dispute there.

If making an 8 dex druid at level 1 is suicidal, making any kind of wizard is doubly so.I'd say 60% so, not 200%.

Also, regarding Improved Initiative, given the 'go first or die' nature of low-level (and not only low level) D&D, you're practically imposing it as a feat tax to the players.
No. I'm "practically imposing" the ability to avoid or survive a hit at low levels. If that's by going first, great. If that's by having good Armor Class? Also great.

If that's by expecting other party members to protect you for 4 levels? Not so great.

LordBlades

2012-05-15, 02:22 PM

You are free to 'disagree with this'. You are wrong to do so, but you are free to.

You think I am wrong. That's something else entirely.

But let's see. He's either lightly armored or fairly lightly armored, and in 100% of cases, armored in what amounts to be dead skin. If in the back of the party, he'll be first choice for any rear assault, especially animals, as again, he's a soft meat sack wearing beef jerky. If he's in the middle of the party, he's first choice for intelligent enemies, such as rogues/casters/tacticians, who can see someone who is being most protected as an asset that most needs protecting.

How the hell is medium armor and shield (fairly) lightly armored? That's equal or better than 80% of the classes out there. Cleric, Fighter, Crusader, Psiwar, Knight, Warrior, Ardent, Divine Mind and Soulborn. Think these are all the base classes with heavy armor prof. All the rest(and that's a lot of classes) are medium or lower.

All druids start at level 1. If no druid who starts at level 1 should have 8 dex as a starting stat, then no druid should have 8 as a starting stat.

Then consider druids that start at 5 and above druids that survived until there despite having 8 dex. Or they just tended to their druid grove and got roleplay XP. Whatever. Thing is, they're there and kick ass.

Melnir

2012-05-15, 02:45 PM

Well, that sounds..more domains than i though, but that's okay.

AND we're talking about a Cloistered Cleric.

So, how do the spells of Druids and clerics fare during the 1-20 road?

I suppose we could compare them at various levels..

I'll begin saying that, at levels 17+ (9th level spells), Cleric spells are superior, no doubt.

And, i would say that at the first levels (spell level 1 and 2? maybe 3?) Druid spells are better.

Anyone wanna continue?

It's more than you thought but not more than any of my clerics has ever had (contemplative+divine disciple at least).

We should divide cleric in 3 groups of levels: 1-7 your primary duty is to heal and buff the group
7-13 you can start winning some battles alone and have some pretty awesome spells (I can suggest on persist chapter: recitation, holy/infermal transformation, planar exchange, visage of the deity, freedom of movement, divine power, righteous might, righteous wrath of the faithful, blessing the righteous, consumptive field, anti-life shell, glacial globe of invulnerability, vigorous circle and so on)
13-20 you are really really really powerful, you can do almost anything you want. Persist: aura of cold greater, consumptive field greater, holy/infernal transformation, holy star, urban shield, ethereal jaunt, holy/unholy aura, city's might, stormrage, mastery of the sky, veil of undeath, necrotic empowerment, shield of law, cloack od chaos, planar exchange greater, choose destiny, end of strife, visage of the deity greate, animate city, foresight, shapechange, cloack of bravery, prismatic sphere

candycorn

2012-05-15, 04:55 PM

You think I am wrong. That's something else entirely.True. I believe you are wrong.

I believe the natural order of a player character is birth, attain some age, gain levels, starting at level 1. At some point, entry by player control. Preceding events referred to as "backstory".

You stated any character that started at level 1 should not have dex 8. Only characters that start at level 5 or higher. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Of course, I also believe that all characters start at level 1. Every last one. If you build a level 27 wizard for an epic game, his backstory includes something about what he did before he was level 27. Since that is the case, I take the comment above as a statement that no druid ever should start with an 8 dex.

How the hell is medium armor and shield (fairly) lightly armored? That's equal or better than 80% of the classes out there. Cleric, Fighter, Crusader, Psiwar, Knight, Warrior, Ardent, Divine Mind and Soulborn. Think these are all the base classes with heavy armor prof. All the rest(and that's a lot of classes) are medium or lower."Lightly Armored" in that you are (a) dressed in animal skin, and (b) you have the same armor class that would be granted to a freakin' commoner in a chain shirt.

Point made? Good.

Then consider druids that start at 5 and above druids that survived until there despite having 8 dex.Which is no druid; All start at level 1. Players sometimes don't take control until level 5.

Or they just tended to their druid grove and got roleplay XP. Whatever. Thing is, they're there and kick ass.They're only there in worlds that lack any semblance of verisimilitude. They're the child of two sterile parents. They're the eyewitness account of a blind man.

In other words, they're an attempt to build a set of stats. Not a character.

Gandariel

2012-05-15, 05:51 PM

@Candycorn:

So if you were to build a level 12 Druid, would you give him 14 Dex because "at level 1 he needed it" ?

But really, you're making such a big argument for nothing. Fine, druid starts with 12-14 Dex. Let's say 12.
Note that the Druid is still WAY more SAD than the cleric, who has to put at least 12 in each score except for Int
(AND don't try to say that level 1 clerics can start with different stats from high level ones)

Now our level 1 druid has 15 AC and +1 Initiative.
He is actually well-armored, so he won't likely be targeted first by these strange monsters which seem to attack only the targets you're trying to attack with arguments. (next time you play, try to say the party Knight is pathetic, he'll be able to tank for the whole party!)

Anyway, the druid has more or less the same level one stats of a cleric (maybe the cleric has +2 AC?).
The spells can now be compared.
the cleric can cure (druid can too, lesser vigor and CLW).
The cleric can buff (bless?) while the druid has access to Entangle and Produce flame.
(With some sheanigans the Cleric can also Persist something right from the start, but i don't know what would he do. a little AC boost?)
Damage potential, neither has much (Druid can cast Shilleagh and Produce flame, cleric likely has a bit more str).

But wait, the druid also has a dog,who is sporting a.. 19?20? AC and +1 initiative, he has (likely)more hp than anyone in the party, can trip, is fast, and can be replaced.

The animal companion on itself is an extra fighter, which at level one is pretty strong.
AND it shares your buffs.
Seriously, a druid is definitely better than a cleric at level one.

Voyager_I

2012-05-15, 06:45 PM

True. I believe you are wrong.

I believe the natural order of a player character is birth, attain some age, gain levels, starting at level 1. At some point, entry by player control. Preceding events referred to as "backstory".

You stated any character that started at level 1 should not have dex 8. Only characters that start at level 5 or higher. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Of course, I also believe that all characters start at level 1. Every last one. If you build a level 27 wizard for an epic game, his backstory includes something about what he did before he was level 27. Since that is the case, I take the comment above as a statement that no druid ever should start with an 8 dex.

Sure.

Only, my Druid spent a century contemplating inner balance and communing with the primal forces of nature, and was pushing mid-levels before he even left his grove. Although he did occasionally trip over roots, his unimpressive hand-eye coordination did little to impair his career.

Four CR-appropriate encounters is not a typical workday for anyone who isn't an adventurer.

"Lightly Armored" in that you are (a) dressed in animal skin, and (b) you have the same armor class that would be granted to a freakin' commoner in a chain shirt.

Point made? Good.

The point I'm seeing is that you're desperate, since you're gone from any sort of statistical analysis to making fun of non-metal armor.

You also keep conveniently forgetting that we're talking about someone with d8 hit die and a massive Con bonus. Their AC may not be top-notch, but they're certainly not squishy judging by the standards with which low-level characters are measured.

PS, cured leather sure as hell doesn't smell like Scooby Snacks.

Which is no druid; All start at level 1. Players sometimes don't take control until level 5.
They're only there in worlds that lack any semblance of verisimilitude. They're the child of two sterile parents. They're the eyewitness account of a blind man.

In other words, they're an attempt to build a set of stats. Not a character.

That would be an excellent point if it were true and had any relevance to the topic at hand. Sadly, it fails on both counts. We've already provided examples of how a physically inept Druid could reach levels high enough to negate his corporeal frailty, and this fundamentally a crunch discussion. The fact that a Level 6 Druid has four dump stats is a meaningful mechanical advantage.

Why are you clinging to this fight? For the Level 2 benchmark, you've come up with a character that can cast Bless, healbot, and has spent all their feats on the ability to persist a +2 AC buff on themselves. Meanwhile, the Druid, who is similarly not built for low-level power, is capable of deciding encounters (and can also heal). Yes, your Cleric is a bit harder to kill (offset somewhat by the fact that he has to be in melee range), but the Druid contributes far, far more to the party. It's beyond argument.

Draz74

2012-05-15, 07:56 PM

Sometimes I wish this Forum had an AI that would automatically split derailed topics off into their own threads ...

eggynack

2012-05-15, 09:29 PM

Sometimes I wish this Forum had an AI that would automatically split derailed topics off into their own threads ...
At least it's pretty easy to see the original topic from where we stand now. The dex as
dump stat thing is pretty weird, but at least we're still talking about druid viability at various levels. It's pretty rare for a thread to go this long without a change in topic.

Spuddles

2012-05-15, 11:12 PM

I believe the natural order of a player character is birth, attain some age, gain levels, starting at level 1. At some point, entry by player control. Preceding events referred to as "backstory".

"Backstory."

"So I ran into a troll, and after scoring a really lucky set of crits while it fumbled in the my entangle spell, I hit level 2!"
"I encountered some wights, they drained my levels; I retrained."
"A wizard temporarily turned me into a dusk giant, I qualified for this prestige class earlier."
"A very charismatic bard inspired greatness, so I got some bonus skill ranks"

"Bull****."

Sometimes I wish this Forum had an AI that would automatically split derailed topics off into their own threads ...

It was kind of doomed from the beginning, as OP was like "also, consider DMM & wildsape".

LordBlades

2012-05-16, 12:49 AM

True. I believe you are wrong.

I believe the natural order of a player character is birth, attain some age, gain levels, starting at level 1. At some point, entry by player control. Preceding events referred to as "backstory".

You stated any character that started at level 1 should not have dex 8. Only characters that start at level 5 or higher. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Of course, I also believe that all characters start at level 1. Every last one. If you build a level 27 wizard for an epic game, his backstory includes something about what he did before he was level 27. Since that is the case, I take the comment above as a statement that no druid ever should start with an 8 dex.

Except not everybody adventures from level 1 to gain levels. Some people's backstories involve living some less violent lives prior to becoming PCs.

"Lightly Armored" in that you are (a) dressed in animal skin, and (b) you have the same armor class that would be granted to a freakin' commoner in a chain shirt.

As a sidenote, unless you have some sort of class features that add to your AC (like swordsage) all characters in a chain shirt have the same AC. Also, when a monster looks at you in game, he won't get a detailed breakdown of your AC, he'll roughly see what you're wearing. A leather/hide armor can look something like this (http://i.ebayimg.com/11/!CBDg+Fw!Wk~$%28KGrHqYOKoYEz!t%29k8nIBNGE-cGlbQ~~_3.JPG) while a breastplate can look like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/15th_century_Gothic_breastplate.jpg/220px-15th_century_Gothic_breastplate.jpg). Who do you think looks lighter armored?

Point made? Good.
Which is no druid; All start at level 1. Players sometimes don't take control until level 5.
They're only there in worlds that lack any semblance of verisimilitude. They're the child of two sterile parents. They're the eyewitness account of a blind man.

In other words, they're an attempt to build a set of stats. Not a character.

Rastlin Majere, one of the emblem NPCs of Dragonlance was a Wizard with 8 Con, to reflect the health problems he got after his Test of High Sorcery.

Building a wizard with 8 Con is a pretty bad choice mechanically, but if I want to build one regardless just because I want to play a wizard with failing health, why would that just be 'a set of stats and not a character'?

eggynack

2012-05-16, 12:58 AM

In any case, in a return to the off topic place we've found ourselves, a druid is perfectly playable with 8 dex from level one. It may not be optimal compared to 12 or 14 dex, but a druid's casting and animal companion make it one of the most powerful classes in the game at those levels. Whatever role the druid is intended to take at high levels, it's role at low levels isn't to tank difficult encounters on its own. If you could actually present me with a situation where a cleric can solo a pair of Prc barbarians with improved initiative at first then there could be some discussion of comparitive survivability. As it stands, a druid at level 2 will consistently win against a cleric of that level due to the advantages presented by superior spells like entangle and produce flame, and superior combat ability due to the animal companion.

Gwendol

2012-05-16, 01:58 AM

A duel between a 2nd level cleric and a 2nd level druid? 32 point buy? WBL?

Gandariel

2012-05-16, 02:42 AM

It's not a duel.

Actually, it's not what it is either.

The original purpose was to compare their spell lists, but since they can't be considered in a vacuum, we needed to take in account DMM, Wildshape, Animal Companion, etc.

This kinda degenerated in a discussion about wether a druid is weak and fragile at the first levels (which he is not, in my opinion)

I'm hoping we can get back to topic..
Also, no duels. That would be the "jump the shark moment" of the thread

eggynack

2012-05-16, 04:06 AM

I pretty much meant that in a general campaign defeating sense. Just as the cleric is a superior combatant at extremely late levels, so too does the druid gain the advantage at early levels. Entangle is superior to most spells at that level, and animal companions are at their best when they have hd equal to or greater than that of their competitors, and melee tactics haven't yet caught up. The true diversion in this debate is the introduction of statistical makeup. Duels are fun, but they're not a good measure of ability due to a number of factors.

Gwendol

2012-05-16, 04:16 AM

It looks to me like we are down to this: are the domain powers and early spells of the cleric inferior to the AC and spells of the druid?

In my view the classes are balanced at this stage: clerics have more spells (at least one more from domains) and are more efficient vs undead while the druid has an animal companion which may or may not be an efficient combatant/scout/whatever and a comparably more offensive spell selection.

At higher levels the cleric clearly gains the advantage. The AC becomes less of a factor, while the cleric still has more spells. And since the cleric can access both divine, arcane and druid spells through domains the cleric gains versatility or focused power (depending on chosen domains), the cleric spell list comes out being the "best".

And I contest the notion that duels aren't "good" measures of ability. They are a measure of ability.

Marlowe

2012-05-16, 04:28 AM

For a more....pure kind of duel, how about a Favoured Soul vs a Spirit Shaman?

No animal companion. No Domains. More spells per day.

sonofzeal

2012-05-16, 04:55 AM

The list itself?

The Cleric list is probably the best in the game for self-buffs, for healing and removing status ailments, and for combating undead. However, their list is generally weak on utility, direct damage, and battlefield control. In many ways it's the most specialized list out of the core full-casters.

Druids have in some ways the most non-specialized list in Core. There's a wide array of utility, buffs, debuffs, BC, attacks, defences, you name it. Their spell list touches on just about all the bases Sor/Wiz and Cleric magic do, except for illusions and anti-humanoid enchantments. This isn't to say that they have every spell or can produce every specific effect, but their spell list touches on just about all of the bases in somewhat less detail.

I'll put the Druid spell list above the Cleric's, personally. It simply has more depth to it. You can count on a Cleric to cover a number of specific bases, but a Druid can touch on just about any base. And they're especially strong in both Conjuration and Transmutation, the two most flexible schools.

T1 are T1 because of how many solutions they can provide to any given problem, and Druid exemplifies that far better than Cleric does, at least by the default spell list. When you bring in domains and Anyspell... ah, but that's not on the spell list itself. ;)

Gwendol

2012-05-16, 05:53 AM

sonofzeal

2012-05-16, 06:51 AM

To me it looks like the druid has spells a mile wide and an inch deep (except wrt plants/nature). Their lack of specialization is also their greatest liability.

I find it hard to see that the druid spell list is superior.
There's a bit of truth to that, but the fact is that you're limited by spells you can prepare anyway, so being able to prepare a spell or two from every major category means you have a diverse array of options to work from. Compare with Warmages, who have all the depth in the world... across an exceedingly narrow spectrum ("dealing direct damage"). You don't need twelve spells that do basically the same thing. You only need one or two, and then have other spells to handle other things.

Also, Druids could make a solid run for having the best spell list in the game for BC and Summoning - and the latter has immense tactical flexibility all by itself. Summons provide excellent BC (allies can move through them while enemies eat AoOs for even moving around them), can Aid Another or provide flanking bonuses, can deal damage, set off traps, carry allies over obstacles, scout, distract, the list goes on. And Druid summons are generally stronger, tougher, and bigger than Cleric summons... not to mention Spontaneous Summoning is a whole lot better than Spontaneous Healing, especially when Unicorns are on the table to provide both at the same time.

The Druid list has a few things it does as well or better than any other list in the game, while covering a wider array of alternatives than almost anything else.

I really can't think of anything else I could ask for in a spell list.

Spuddles

2012-05-16, 07:10 AM

I know, for me, in actual play, a Druid is probably more "powerful" than a wizard, most of the time, in that his list is so broad. He will always have a spell he can use to solve a problem. It may not be as specialized as a wizard, but he only needs 24 hours to get it, so in the middle of the woods or a dungeon crawl or what have you, he's got it covered.

A druid's battlefield control is pretty much on par with a wizard's, in most environments and at most levels.

Buffing up for melee is a little more difficult, as a druid, but there are some gems out there- Halo of Sand, Girallon's Blessing, and Shillelagh, while in ape morph, come together nicely.

Clerics, on the other hand, don't get the breadth of utility spells from their spell list until a little later in their career. I've found a cleric really shines in combat, but only when he's got a half dozen rounds to put his buffs up (or a small fortune in night sticks). If the cleric has a heads up about fighting evil outsiders or undead, he can also deliver some crippling spells as well as protect form some of the nastiest effects in the game.

Over all though, in how the Tiers measure "power", I think the druid's spell list comes out ahead, for the reasons Zeal enumerated above. In practical play, I feel that a druid is the most powerful class. He's got most of the effects a wizard has access to with his spell list, without the fiddliness of spellbooks, and it comes on a 2 good saves, d8 HD, 4 skill pts/level chassis, along with native polymorph and a kick ass pet.

Gwendol

2012-05-16, 07:19 AM

Spuddles

2012-05-16, 08:07 AM

I see what you are getting at, but relying on summons to do your bidding rather than just do it yourself seems a bit ineffective. Besides, clerics make for good summoners themselves, starting to summon e.g. guardinals at SM III (musteval).

I mean, druids get to change metal to wood at the same level clerics get Holy Word...

They do get 13d6 fire damage over 26,000 cubic feet at this level. That's 26 10 foot cubes of burnining.

Yeah, but check out what they get in the Spell Compendium:
Master Earth is a non-teleportation spell that moves you to anywhere else on the world that is contact with the earth.
Slime Wave- Everyone gets a reflex save or takes 1d6 con damage per round.
Storm of Elemental Fury- Hit your enemies with control winds, followed by a ice storm effect, followed by a sleet storm effect, followed by a firestorm effect.
Word of Balance- It's like Holy Word, but works on only the extreme alignments.

Sandstorm:
Mass Flesh to Salt- mmm salty

Frostburn:
Whiteout- everyone in the area has to make a DC10+CL survival check every move action, or be unable to leave the white out. Even if they make the check, there's no guarantee they'll have enough move that round to get out. Pretty baller battlefield control spell, seeing as it is a 120 foot spread.

JeminiZero

2012-05-16, 08:15 AM

The Cleric list is probably the best in the game for self-buffs, for healing and removing status ailments, and for combating undead. However, their list is generally weak on utility, direct damage, and battlefield control. In many ways it's the most specialized list out of the core full-casters.

Clerics, on the other hand, don't get the breadth of utility spells from their spell list until a little later in their career.

Clerics are definitely not short on utility. Let me list the nifty utility spells that Clerics get:

{table]Level | Utility
1 | Spiderhand, Omen of Peril, Comprehend Languages
2 | Shatter, Augury, Zone of Truth, Guidance of the Avatar, Divine Insight, Lore of the Gods
3 | Create Food and Water, Continual Flame, Stone Shape, Water Breathing, Water Walking, Glyph of Warding, Chain of Eyes, Circle Dance, Speak with Dead, Animate Dead (This is the swiss army knife of utility. Intruder Alarm? Flying zombie mounts for the party?)
4 | Divination, Sending, Discern Lies, Tongues, Sacred Item, Spiritual Adviser, Control Water
5 | Plane Shift, Mark of Justice, True Seeing, Scrying (although 1 level later than Druids/Arcanists), Wall of Stone (Raise a fortress!)
6 | Wind Walk, Forbiddance, Find the Path, Word of Recall, Greater Glyph of Warding, Geas/Quest, Heroes Feast
7 | Control Weather, Refuge, Greater Scrying (same level as Druid and Arcanists).
8 | Dimensional Lock, Discern Location
9 | Astral Projection, Miracle, Gate
[/table]

Yes, the Druid gets some of these as well. But that is besides the point. As far as Utility goes, the only things that Clerics can't really do well is Rope Trick (which the Druid also can't do) and Teleport (although Wind Walk comes close, or you could buy a Belt of Wide Earth, or get a suitable Domain).

Togo

2012-05-16, 08:26 AM

Summons provide excellent BC (allies can move through them while enemies eat AoOs for even moving around them), can Aid Another or provide flanking bonuses, can deal damage, set off traps, carry allies over obstacles, scout, distract, the list goes on.

The list of things a summoned creature is capable of performing is very large. Without a means to speak with the summoned creature, though, they're basically just going to hit things. The celestial and fiendish creatures, although weaker, are more often smarter and can understand language and more complex instructions. Lots of table variation there, but it's a limitation that needs to be taken into account.

sonofzeal

2012-05-16, 08:45 AM

Clerics are definitely not short on utility. Let me list the nifty utility spells that Clerics get:

{snip}

Yes, the Druid gets some of these as well. But that is besides the point. As far as Utility goes, the only things that Clerics can't really do well is Rope Trick (which the Druid also can't do) and Teleport (although Wind Walk comes close, or you could buy a Belt of Wide Earth, or get a suitable Domain).
Druids generally have earlier and faster access to flight, a major utility milestone. They categorically get more options for reshaping the environment around them, which also has tones of utility uses. They have methods of Teleportation, which most Clerics lack. They have more options for granting or boosting senses. And they get the infamous Scry at a lower level, and can make use of it much more easily since the Cleric version requires a pretty significant piece of furniture (http://www.stjohnscanberra.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/baptism_font_medium.jpeg).

Clerics do have utility. I didn't deny that. They're just weaker on it than the other full-caster lists around.

The list of things a summoned creature is capable of performing is very large. Without a means to speak with the summoned creature, though, they're basically just going to hit things. The celestial and fiendish creatures, although weaker, are more often smarter and can understand language and more complex instructions. Lots of table variation there, but it's a limitation that needs to be taken into account.
Druids are excellently-equipped to get the cooperation of the things they can summon. Also, they get a lot of Magical Beasts (many of which can speak), and Fey (all of which can speak IIRC). Finally, most DMs I've seen put the summons (SNA and SM alike) directly under the control of the player anyway. Even if they don't I don't think think this is a major liability for the Druid compared to the Cleric.

JeminiZero

2012-05-16, 09:54 AM

Druids generally have earlier and faster access to flight, a major utility milestone.

But they cannot share it with the party, and can't fly all day as early as Clerics (spell level 3, zombie mounts, or DMM persist footsteps of the divine). This is something even Wizards/Sorcerers cannot match (Animate Dead on spell level 4, no Desecrate).

They categorically get more options for reshaping the environment around them, which also has tones of utility uses.

As far as environment shaping goes, Clerics get shatter at level 2, and get Wall of Stone earlier on level 5 (which is pretty much the last spell you need for making any sort of stone structures). Not to mention they get area defence spells like Forbiddance, Symbol of X, which is something Druids do not have.

Admittedly though, Druids do get Soften Earth, Plant Growth and Move Earth.

They have methods of Teleportation, which most Clerics lack.

On the contrary. ALL Clerics HAVE methods of teleportation, with the earliest "reliable" means being word of recall.

If they want to bring the party along, they can pull off something like: 1 casting of plane shift (to go to another plane) followed by Greater Plane Shift (to get to target destination of orginal plane). Or in the event their target destination is not on their current plane anyway, one casting of Greater Plane Shift is enough. (Notably, Druids cannot plane shift at all)

Plus that is not counting buying a Belt of Wide Earth at level 9, which all Clerics/Druids can do.

They have more options for granting or boosting senses.

Both classes get Blindsight/Greater Blindsight at the same level. Thats pretty much the only sensory boost you really need for most situations. And Clerics get Ebon Eyes at 1, and Continual Flame at 3, and can share both with the party. (Being able to see in the dark is useful. Having the ubercharger warblade see in the dark is even MORE useful). Clerics also get True Seeing 2 spell levels earlier.

And they get the infamous Scry at a lower level, and can make use of it much more easily since the Cleric version requires a pretty significant piece of furniture (http://www.stjohnscanberra.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/baptism_font_medium.jpeg).

While true, Clerics get Chain of Eyes earlier than Druids. And they both get greater scry at the same level.

Clerics do have utility. I didn't deny that. They're just weaker on it than the other full-caster lists around.

Thats not the complete picture though.

-Clerics get Sending at level 4 (which is fairly important, since the Batman Wizard likely banned Evocation). So while Druids at that level can scry on the enemy, the Cleric can better communicate with allies.

-Clerics are better at "interrogation" in general: Comprehend Languages, Tongues, Zone of Truth, Speak with Dead, Discern Lies.

-Clerics can keep the party fed: Create Food and Water/Heroes Feast.

-Clerics are better at miscellaneous divination: Augury, Divination, Commune.

On the whole, Druids are better at Scry (up to spell level 7), and reshaping woodland environs, but Clerics can pretty much keep up or surpass them in every other field.

Draz74

2012-05-16, 09:56 AM

When you bring in domains and Anyspell... ah, but that's not on the spell list itself. ;)
True, but they were explicitly supposed to be considered according to the OP. Which does make the question a lot more complicated.

I really can't think of anything else I could ask for in a spell list.
Well, I can think of a few things ... *cough*Miracle*cough*

the "jump the shark moment" of the thread

Oooh, Druids are definitely better than Clerics at jumping sharks. Ride as a class skill, plus sharks available as summons or animal companions ...
:smalltongue:

sonofzeal

2012-05-16, 10:03 AM

Well, I can think of a few things ... *cough*Miracle*cough*
I'll take Shapechange over... pretty much anything, really. If we're talking about 9th level spells.

Draz74

2012-05-16, 10:05 AM

I'll take Shapechange over... pretty much anything, really. If we're talking about 9th level spells.

It's a better spell, but if a Druid had Miracle on their list, then I would prepare it in at least one slot.

Melnir

2012-05-16, 10:26 AM

I'll take Shapechange over... pretty much anything, really. If we're talking about 9th level spells.

Please stop it! Clerics DO have shapechange! And a smart cleric perists shapechange (or choose destiny or animate city or anysting else, look at my last reply)!

Togo

2012-05-16, 10:58 AM

Melnir

2012-05-16, 11:27 AM

Correction, they can have shapechange. Just like placing summoned monsters under the control of the summoner, you're ignoring a limitation written into the system. Summoners can only command their creatures, and need the ability and time to do so. Clerics can only get domains granted by their deity. Yes, a lot of tables rule otherwise, but I've played on plenty that don't, and the limitation is RAW.

Druids get access to shapechange. Clerics can get some additional spells, which may or may not include shapechange. The druid has the advantage in this instance. We can dispute whether it is a significant advantage, or an important advantage, but it's an advantage nonetheless.

I don't know who you played with but the fact is: if you don't take one domain between destiny and transformation (or city in a city campaign or alteration in dragonlance) and you play DMM persist you are not so smart. Who needs a deity with animal or scalykind domain? I can be a changeling and get access to transformation domain (wich is way much better than the other two).

Talya

2012-05-16, 12:16 PM

I don't know who you played with but the fact is: if you don't take one domain between destiny and transformation (or city in a city campaign or alteration in dragonlance) and you play DMM persist you are not so smart. Who needs a deity with animal or scalykind domain? I can be a changeling and get access to transformation domain (wich is way much better than the other two).

You may always take those domains. That might even be a good idea. In general, however, I find that people pick cleric domains to match a concept they are trying to create. i've never actually encountered anyone playing those domains.

The comparison is difficult. Just like you can't easily judge spell lists in a vacuum without class features factored in, the Cleric spell list is not really complete without their domains. But their domain are also generally very limited. Without Domain Spontanaity, you only get one spell per day at each spell level from your domain lists, and every cleric will have different domain lists. You can't count on every cleric -- or even most clerics -- having access to Shapechange, although admittedly some of them will.

Gandariel

2012-05-16, 02:24 PM

If we set an optimisation line where Clerics get 5-6 domains, then they may have the Travel domain, which is my opinion one of the best around (Fly, Dimension Door, (Greater)Teleport, and the great domain power)

Anyway, seriously, level 9 Cleric spells beat level 9 Druid ones. There's really no arguing.

Although i guess we could separate the various spell types and compare them in all the ways, for example Druids get Undermaster, which is nice utility (although i guess kind of weak for its level), Greater Whirlwind, Tsunami, Nature's Avatar..
Well, Clerics get Gate and Miracle, plus some "possible" ones.

Should we compare them in terms of who has the best (Utility, direct damage, buff, selfbuff, etc), per spell level/s?

Snowbluff

2012-05-16, 06:37 PM

If we set an optimisation line where Clerics get 5-6 domains, then they may have the Travel domain, which is my opinion one of the best around (Fly, Dimension Door, (Greater)Teleport, and the great domain power)

Yeah, a serious limitation of the Druid is the large lack of usable PrC that expend the spell list. The one planar thingy is nice, but incredibly high OP. Extra domains greatly change the dynamic of the Cleric class. Should we consider the domains as a part of the Spell List for them? :smallconfused:

Spuddles

2012-05-16, 06:48 PM

On my phone, but I think we should look at each spell list, level by level, and see what the list can do by itself (battle field control? Wightpocalypse? Ignore physical ability scores? Flight? Etc), then what they pick up from feats, class features, etc.

Spuddles

2012-05-16, 06:51 PM

Yeah, a serious limitation of the Druid is the large lack of usable PrC that expend the spell list. The one planar thingy is nice, but incredibly high OP. Extra domains greatly change the dynamic of the Cleric class. Should we consider the domains as a part of the Spell List for them? :smallconfused:

Limitation? Or opportunity cost? Druids qualify for a bunch of cleric stuff, but they have absolutely no reason to take it, because unlike a cleric, a druid has some seriously awesome class features.

Aberrant wildshape, dragon wildshape, and finally shapechange, give druids pretty much all the spell effects you'd want to pick up, anyway.

Snowbluff

2012-05-16, 06:58 PM

Limitation? Or opportunity cost? Druids qualify for a bunch of cleric stuff, but they have absolutely no reason to take it, because unlike a cleric, a druid has some seriously awesome class features.

Aberrant wildshape, dragon wildshape, and finally shapechange, give druids pretty much all the spell effects you'd want to pick up, anyway.

Yes and no. Planar Shepard gives you the spell effects you want. :smalltongue:

The stuff is awesome, so you want to keep it. The class features on the Cleric are front heavy, but handy. Dropping out ASAP is easy and gives you options. Pick up more Domains! Extra Turning Pools! I digress... I was viewing this from a casting perspective without considering ditching what makes the Druid great.

Orchius

2012-05-16, 07:23 PM

In this debate, if we are comparing classes, lets at least compare the classes over fewer "axis" for example, isolate Cleric vs. Favored Soul then Favored Soul vs. Druid; two step process, more specific, easier to highlight advantages.

Favored Souls vs. Clerics- As far as I've always played my divine healers/buffers (I prefer arcane) I only really enjoy melee divines, so I don't know how they size up otherwise (and i don't have complete Divine), but a couple notable things here: I noticed in the thread that DDM Persist thing, I would assume since FvS does not have turn undead it does not get the free 24 hour melee buffs. Also, Cleric has his domain spells, which can be a big advantage (and again no Complete Divine so I'm not completely sure on feats or all the domains) with the occasional bonuses. Another serious thing many ignored was the cleric spontaneous healing, very useful because the FvS and the Druid must worry about heals vs. other spells. That being said, Cleric will generally trump FvS in spellcasting simply because of spells known and early spell levels, etc. as well as in buffs.

FvS vs. Druid- This is where the comparisons get challenging. The combination of animal companion, wild shape, and summoning make this unquantifiable, so no side is ever going to convince the other (hence much of this debate is pointless, seeing that if you understand half this thread you are already probably solidly in the cleric or druid camp). My sorry attempt at comparison:
Druid spell casting definitely stands out early on; consider that Druids get a lvl 4 resurrection spell, while the earliest cleric/FvS res spell is lvl 5. Also notice Druid CC is undeniably far better. That being said, summoning gets tricky. Face it, having 6 earth elementals battling 12 bearded devils is nice, but almost useless against a powerful boss. So, the Druid's summoning numerical advantage doesn't help against very powerful enemies (with higher AC presumably) like Balors and Pitfiends. That being said, the Cleric/FvS's summoning abilities are truly only useful against single, powerful enemies. The trick with the cleric summoning is the xp loss; sure, you summon a Solar and all to combat that Balor, but faced with this situation, any powerful monster is going to have and use greater teleport: *bampf* the sweet sound of wasted XP. Of course, they could return as soon as the Solar leaves, etc, so even in this position the Druid's longer/more numerous summoning ability actually wins the advantage.
That being said, cleric spells are undeniably more useful to the tanks of the party or an army; 1 cleric and 3 fighters will defeat 1 druid and 3 fighters simply based on buffs alone. Therefore, we can observe that Druids, which can second as tanks or summon tanks, work better with casters, clerics with melees (and overall, since casters are undeniably more powerful than fighters in traditional rules, Druids are more useful in more powerful parties :smallsmile: my bias may be trickling in a bit)

That being said, in every other aspect cleric/FvSs are superior in spell casting in late/end game, especially considering the lovely Miracle spell.

So next up is Animal Companion and Wild Shape. Perhaps one-on-one melee cleric/FvS wins (only with 24 hour persist) but once considering that a Druid almost fights with two characters, both of whom receive the buffs from the same casting, the Animal companion really, truly tips the side. So it comes down to:

Cleric: Persist (yes I consider turn undead useless), better later spell casting, mass/army buffs, healing, and PrC options (yes, I have to consider)

Druid: serves as two secondary tanks, better spells earlier on, decent spell casting later on, summoning, and animal companion versitality (I'm especially considering flying, probably the biggest perk the cleric misses out on)

So ultimately, while Cleric has better spells, is the Cleric's better spells also equal to two tanks? Since this question will never be resolved either, the best conlcusion is that Druids benefit caster parties more, while clerics benefit melee parties more.

On the low level thing... first off, with character background, a wizard spends years learning his first cantrip, let alone his first lvl 1 spell. Yet in three weeks he can double his magical strength and triple his health? Starting a character off at level 1 is not background; natural training should carry him at least to level 4, and even considering starting from level 1, you will not start off facing deadly orc barbarians on your own anymore (with a fair DM) than you would ever encounter a first level orc (tribal training AT LEAST will place him above level 1, heck, the orc children are probably second level barbarians) Simply, the druid will survive to heal, buff, CC, and add a melee fighter (AC) to the mix, while the cleric will only live, buff, and heal.

sonofzeal

2012-05-16, 11:26 PM

Autopsibiofeeder

2012-05-17, 01:33 AM

If I were a player and in need of a divine character to buff me, protect me against the most common threats, cure (damage, disease, drains, curses, etc.) me etc. I would prefer to have a cleric around.

If I were a player to join a team and was requested to roll up a divine character to buff, brotect and cure a party, I would roll up a druid.

Not so much for the class abilities, but for the spell list. I feel the druid spell list allows for a lot more creativity and that the druid spells often have wider range of applications. Granted, cleric spells tend to be more concrete, more to the point and often more efficient, but the druid gives me more angles to approach problems and allows me to tackle problems clerics just can't cope with.

Which list is more powerful? *shrug* Depends a lot on your playstyle. The difference, if any, is small in my opinion. But the druid list is just so much more fun.

Melnir

2012-05-17, 04:55 AM

Undeath. Planning.

Seriously, there's tones of good Domains out there. Arguing that every Cleric takes two in particular is trivially falsifiable.

I maintain the Druid list is better than the Cleric list. It's also likely inferior to the composite of the Cleric list with every domain spell added in, but that goes without saying.

I think I already said it al least 3 times. You don't get only two domains, you're not optimizing a cleric. If you want to consider an optimized druid then consider an optimized cleric.

Second: I'm not considering a cleric of Eberron or a cleric just following his ideals (what ideal matches planning and undeath?), I'm considering a cleric with a deity (I've always specified the best deities and wich deity I was going to choose) and no deity has both planning and undeath.

Third: if I get three different turning/rebuking (1st level substitution level cleric drow/dragonblood/azurin, sacred exorcist, other PrC with turning and exchange it for rebuke dragons) I will get something like 3*(3+Cha)+3*4*(extra turning). I will assume 16 Cha (none of my cleric has ever had less than 22/24) and 4 extra turning.
3*(3+3)+3*4*4= 66 turning attempts (9 persistent spells).
So here's my question: do you prefere another persistent spell or do you prefere to have shapechange/choose destiny/animate ciy/something else crazy to persist?

Taking both planning and undeath is not what a smart cleric would do, it's what you assume clerics do to show druid spell list is better.

You may always take those domains. That might even be a good idea. In general, however, I find that people pick cleric domains to match a concept they are trying to create. i've never actually encountered anyone playing those domains.

The comparison is difficult. Just like you can't easily judge spell lists in a vacuum without class features factored in, the Cleric spell list is not really complete without their domains. But their domain are also generally very limited. Without Domain Spontanaity, you only get one spell per day at each spell level from your domain lists, and every cleric will have different domain lists. You can't count on every cleric -- or even most clerics -- having access to Shapechange, although admittedly some of them will.

So following a deity is not a good concept for a cleric? Look at the build i proposed and tell me if they are deity clerics or clerics of pure optimization (on domains side not on the build itself, but you could just go cloistered 7/divine disciple 5/contemplative 8 and get 6 domains without optimizing so much). If you follow the right deity you can get very good domains.

eggynack

2012-05-17, 05:05 AM

So here's my question: do you prefere another persistent spell or do you prefere to have shapechange/choose destiny/animate ciy/something else crazy to persist?

I would almost certainly take the extra turning. Unless I'm starting a campaign at or near that level, I'm not going to make build decisions that only effect the game at 17th. Being able to persist an extra spell in the early levels is better than being able to break the game in the late levels, especially when the cleric is already doing so with regularity. I don't know if undeath is necessarily the best domain, but it's better than one that only grants something useful at 17th.

Marlowe

2012-05-17, 05:10 AM

(what ideal matches planning and undeath?)

The ideal of planning on being around for quite some time? :smallbiggrin:

Ah, Contemplative. I had a Cleric qualify for that once. The "Direct Contact with diety" bit came as a bit of a surprise. It was Wee Jas. It was an awkward conversation. I didn't even want to tell the other PCs about it, much less go into a Prestige Class on the basis of it.

Melnir

2012-05-17, 05:19 AM

I would almost certainly take the extra turning. Unless I'm starting a campaign at or near that level, I'm not going to make build decisions that only effect the game at 17th. Being able to persist an extra spell in the early levels is better than being able to break the game in the late levels, especially when the cleric is already doing so with regularity. I don't know if undeath is necessarily the best domain, but it's better than one that only grants something useful at 17th.

Ok, just read transformation, destiny and city and tell me what do you think. Undeath is terrible except for extra turning.
Then just think it that way: you take undeath, then when you need it you cast the spell that changes your domain and change undeath.
And again: no deity with both, so better planning than undeath.

Talya

2012-05-17, 05:19 AM

So following a deity is not a good concept for a cleric? Look at the build i proposed and tell me if they are deity clerics or clerics of pure optimization (on domains side not on the build itself, but you could just go cloistered 7/divine disciple 5/contemplative 8 and get 6 domains without optimizing so much). If you follow the right deity you can get very good domains.

(1) "Following a deity" is not a concept for a cleric. "Following {insert specific deity here}" is at least a partial concept, but you are putting the cart before the horse. You're picking the deity for the domains it gives. The vast majority of clerics i've ever seen in play are picked because a particular deity is considered appropriate to their concept, long before they even know what domains are given.

(2) The vast majority of even optimized clerics get two domains. Cloistered Cleric (which is not a normal cleric) will get 3. Several prcs (which are no longer clerics) will get you more. Druid can also take those PrCs, of course, and gain access to the domains. Which brings me to ...

(3) A lack of features worth advancing is not a bonus for your class. I often joke about sorcerers that one advantage they have over wizards is they lose no bonus feats by multiclassing, but this is not a positive thing. Clerics have nothing to keep them in cleric. Druids continue to advance everything a cleric does by multiclassing, but wildshape and animal companion are so valuable, there are very few PrCs that are worth taking for them. The fact that druid 20 is an appealling build is a great thing. Out of core, my two favorite classes are Bard and Druid for precisely that reason - you don't NEED to multiclass.

sonofzeal

2012-05-17, 05:20 AM

I think I already said it al least 3 times. You don't get only two domains, you're not optimizing a cleric. If you want to consider an optimized druid then consider an optimized cleric.

Second: I'm not considering a cleric of Eberron or a cleric just following his ideals (what ideal matches planning and undeath?), I'm considering a cleric with a deity (I've always specified the best deities and wich deity I was going to choose) and no deity has both planning and undeath.

Third: if I get three different turning/rebuking (1st level substitution level cleric drow/dragonblood/azurin, sacred exorcist, other PrC with turning and exchange it for rebuke dragons) I will get something like 3*(3+Cha)+3*4*(extra turning). I will assume 16 Cha (none of my cleric has ever had less than 22/24) and 4 extra turning.
3*(3+3)+3*4*4= 66 turning attempts (9 persistent spells).
So here's my question: do you prefere another persistent spell or do you prefere to have shapechange/choose destiny/animate ciy/something else crazy to persist?

Taking both planning and undeath is not what a smart cleric would do, it's what you assume clerics do to show druid spell list is better.
You're assuming very particular builds, which not all Clerics follow. Again, this is trivially verifiable. And once you're talking about specific builds, then you're not talking about Clerics in general, at which point - why should we care?

Okay, certain builds using ACFs and PrCs, and either using Pantheon rules or worshiping or or two specific gods out of the list of 239 options, can get a better spell list than the base Druid one. I still maintain that {a} this won't reflect the reality of median Cleric experiences compared to median Druid experiences, and {b} that, when talking about the CLERIC SPELL LIST, that we should restrain ourselves to the CLERIC SPELL LIST. Which the Domains aren't.

If you're bringing PrCs and ACFs into this, it becomes as much about the PrC/ACF as the class itself.

I will grant that Clerics have far more options for expanding their spell lists than Druids do. This certainly mitigates the overspecialization their list suffers. I still maintain that the Druid spell list is excellent - very diverse, loads of utility, all sorts of things that lend themselves to creative uses rather than fixed static effects. And they're particularly excellent in the Conj/Trans lines, which are generally argued to be the two strongest.

So I suppose the final verdict rests on whether (and how) you're including Domains into this. A Cleric with a bunch of good Domains has a better list than a base Druid, even if a base Druid has a better list than a base Cleric. Where you fall on that continuum depends on what sort of game you run.

Acanous

2012-05-17, 05:29 AM

Vecna grants Planning and Undeath.

Anyhow, I'm actually fairly surprised at how long this thread has gone on 0.o
The Level 1 example is actually a double-negative test. An optimized cleric with DMM Persist Spell could easilly Persist a Summon Monster 1 and have a Celestial Badger, or whatever else his alignment allows for. He could possibly even have two up.
If a Cleric is going to focus on summoning, he actually does it better than a druid, unless the druid is ALSO focused on Summoning (Greenbound, etc.) and even then, the cleric can have his summons up preemptively and all day long.

Alternatively, the cleric could Persist Sanctuary. That'd give the two orcs in the example some problems, and would allow the cleric to cast the summon spells without having to win initiative.

Cleric lv 9 spells are better than Druid lv 9 spells, with Shapechange and Gate being roughly equal, but the Cleric gets Miracle.

The Druid list is *definately not* more versitile. how did that become an argument? Look through core, Spell Compendium, etc. The cleric list is about 30% larger than the Druid list in whole. There was a comment about Druids having more spell versatility than *Wizards*??
Look at the Spell section in the PHB. Look at the spell selection for Wizard. It's organized by level and subschool for conveniance. Now look at the druid list. See how the Druid list is a little less than half the size of the wizard list at any given level?
Yeah, that doesn't actually change outside of core. Maybe in 4E or something, but in 3E, a Wizard can take a Druid AND a cleric, simultaniously, while spending all his standard actions sipping martinis.

Anyhow, the cleric actually gets a good deal more versatility. Any ONE cleric gets less, due to alignment restrictions, but they also get domains, which broaden it up again. It's very difficult to quantify. As a class itself, however, the cleric has more options. More options=more versatility. If the cleric can create undead, he's packing more options than the druid all the way from 12-20. The Druid class comes with an animal companion, for free, at low level. The Cleric class comes with a large number of hit die worth of undead, which you have to pay 25GP per HD for. You may also encounter some undead out in the wild, and Rebuke them into your service. This IS a class feature, as much as the Wizard's familiar.

A Druid is a Druid is a Druid. Something that works against druid A will work against Druid B and Druid C. If their alignments are radically different, you may have to swap versions of the same spell. Cleric A, Cleric B, and Cleric C have radically different domain powers, different builds AND different spell lists (Due to alignment differences). Things that work on cleric A fail against Cleric B but work against Cleric C. Things that work against Cleric B might work on Cleric C but fail against Cleric A.

Look at it from a DM standpoint, which would you rather have to deal with: A party comprised entirely of Druids, or a party comprised entirely of Clerics?

Personally, I'd much rather deal with a party of Druids, they'd be easier to quantify, challenge, and account for.
The party of clerics could do any freaking thing.

eggynack

2012-05-17, 05:38 AM

An optimized cleric with DMM Persist Spell could easilly Persist a Summon Monster 1 and have a Celestial Badger, or whatever else his alignment allows for.

This doesn't work. Persistant spells must have a personal or fixed range. SM is close, which is a variable range.

eggynack

2012-05-17, 05:42 AM

Alternatively, the cleric could Persist Sanctuary. That'd give the two orcs in the example some problems, and would allow the cleric to cast the summon spells without having to win initiative.

This also probably doesn't work. Persisting touch range spells is one of those debates that never ended. I'd rather not hinge my enemy defeating abilities on something as dm dependant as persisting sanctuary.

Melnir

2012-05-17, 05:48 AM

(1) "Following a deity" is not a concept for a cleric. "Following {insert specific deity here}" is at least a partial concept, but you are putting the cart before the horse. You're picking the deity for the domains it gives. The vast majority of clerics i've ever seen in play are picked because a particular deity is considered appropriate to their concept, long before they even know what domains are given.

(2) The vast majority of even optimized clerics get two domains. Cloistered Cleric (which is not a normal cleric) will get 3. Several prcs (which are no longer clerics) will get you more. Druid can also take those PrCs, of course, and gain access to the domains. Which brings me to ...

(3) A lack of features worth advancing is not a bonus for your class. I often joke about sorcerers that one advantage they have over wizards is they lose no bonus feats by multiclassing, but this is not a positive thing. Clerics have nothing to keep them in cleric. Druids continue to advance everything a cleric does by multiclassing, but wildshape and animal companion are so valuable, there are very few PrCs that are worth taking for them. The fact that druid 20 is an appealling build is a great thing. Out of core, my two favorite classes are Bard and Druid for precisely that reason - you don't NEED to multiclass.

1) If we just consider the best (IMO) you can follow: Olidammara (trickery, celerity, sloth, mind, city), Cyric (envy, illusion, pride, trickery), Gargauth (charm, envy, pride, sloth, trickery), Mask (trickery, sloth, luck, city), Oghma (trickery, pride, luck, charm), Sharess (charm, envy, sloth, trickery), Mockery (trickery, pride, illusion, envy, domination), Chronepsis (time, planning, fate, dragon), St. Cuthbert (destiny, domination, protection), Horus-Re (destiny, pride, sun), Undying Court (destiny, fate, planning, protection), Pelor (destiny, sun, pride), Gond (city, planning, pride), Waukeen (city, pride, protection, sloth), Finder Wyvernspur (charm, pride, renewal, sloth).

And they are only the top best ones (I didn't count knowledge as a good domain because you can get it as cloistered).

In fact it's an advantage; you don't gain anything if you are cleric 20, so you need to multiclass. And multiclassing is the base of any cleric build a bit optimized. Keeping PrC out means that you're not considering a large part of cleric power, because to qualify for contemplative and divine disciple (it's just an example, 95% of clerics PrC have very easy prerequisites to match) you litteraly don't need to do anything.

You're assuming very particular builds, which not all Clerics follow. Again, this is trivially verifiable. And once you're talking about specific builds, then you're not talking about Clerics in general, at which point - why should we care?

Okay, certain builds using ACFs and PrCs, and either using Pantheon rules or worshiping or or two specific gods out of the list of 239 options, can get a better spell list than the base Druid one. I still maintain that {a} this won't reflect the reality of median Cleric experiences compared to median Druid experiences, and {b} that, when talking about the CLERIC SPELL LIST, that we should restrain ourselves to the CLERIC SPELL LIST. Which the Domains aren't.

If you're bringing PrCs and ACFs into this, it becomes as much about the PrC/ACF as the class itself.

I will grant that Clerics have far more options for expanding their spell lists than Druids do. This certainly mitigates the overspecialization their list suffers. I still maintain that the Druid spell list is excellent - very diverse, loads of utility, all sorts of things that lend themselves to creative uses rather than fixed static effects. And they're particularly excellent in the Conj/Trans lines, which are generally argued to be the two strongest.

So I suppose the final verdict rests on whether (and how) you're including Domains into this. A Cleric with a bunch of good Domains has a better list than a base Druid, even if a base Druid has a better list than a base Cleric. Where you fall on that continuum depends on what sort of game you run.

I'm assuming ONE god, not a pantheon, not 2 gods. One.
You can say whatever you want, but if you want to consider a good cleric build you will always have 4/5 domains, no matter what.

This doesn't work. Persistant spells must have a personal or fixed range. SM is close, which is a variable range.

Wizard Customer Care says that you can persist touch spell and a spells with range close and similar.

Q: What are the rules for Persisting a spell?
A: 2 requirements. Fixed/Personal range and non-discharge/instantaneous spell. Fixed range means "60 feet" or "100 ft + 10 ft/level". Detect Magic is an example of a fixed range spell. Despite it being technically legal, Wizards has deemed Time Stop not persistable by saying that the 1d4+1 rounds is "effectively instaneous" for the purpose of Persistant Spell. Note: the definition of "fixed" is also debatable. Some choose to interpret the "+10 ft/level" as non-fixed. ASK YOUR DM for his/her interpretation on this matter.

Q: What about Touch spells?!?!?!
A: Touch spells are a topic of debate. I emailed Customer Service myself to ask, and they said Touch spells are ok. This is contradictory to most interpretations of the SRD, but it's what they said. My advice, ask your DM. Remember, though, many touch spells "discharge" (Ray of XXX, Orb of XXX, etc) and explicity cannot be persisted. Nor can "Ranged Touch" spells, as a ranged touch is not "fixed".

Vecna grants Planning and Undeath.

Are you sure? Where can I find it? As long as I know Vecna has destiny, evil, knowledge, madness, magic, portal, pride.

sonofzeal

2012-05-17, 06:20 AM

I'm assuming ONE god, not a pantheon, not 2 gods. One.
You can say whatever you want, but if you want to consider a good cleric build you will always have 4/5 domains, no matter what.
Hooray. You're assuming one god.

...

...you do realize that doesn't address a single point in my post, right?

Also, you seem to be assuming relatively high-op as the standard. I play mid-op, and every IRL group I've been in has been pretty low-op. I don't remember ever once seeing a Cleric with 4+ domains. Heck, I'm not actually sure I've been in an IRL game with a Cleric using more than the base two.

All of which is anecdotal, of course. But so is your insistence that Clerics must be considered in context of having 4+ domains, and excellent domains at that.

I repeat: if you're bringing PrCs and ACFs into this, it becomes as much about the PrC/ACF as the class itself. If we want to ask which class has better PrC/ACF options, I'm totally on board with you. That's not the question that was asked though.

Wizard Customer Care says that you can persist touch spell and a spells with range close and similar.
Their answer boils down to "maybe, we don't really know, so ask your DM".

Melnir

2012-05-17, 06:29 AM

Hooray. You're assuming one god.

...

...you do realize that doesn't address a single point in my post, right?

Also, you seem to be assuming relatively high-op as the standard. I play mid-op, and every IRL group I've been in has been pretty low-op. I don't remember ever once seeing a Cleric with 4+ domains. Heck, I'm not actually sure I've been in an IRL game with a Cleric using more than the base two.

All of which is anecdotal, of course. But so is your insistence that Clerics must be considered in context of having 4+ domains, and excellent domains at that.

I repeat: if you're bringing PrCs and ACFs into this, it becomes as much about the PrC/ACF as the class itself. If we want to ask which class has better PrC/ACF options, I'm totally on board with you. That's not the question that was asked though.

Well, I think PrCs and ACFs are part of a class potential. No cleric would go cleric 20 if they want a bit of optimization. We have different opinions on that so i propose to drop that point, it's useless to debate on this and I agree, it's totally OT.

Their answer boils down to "maybe, we don't really know, so ask your DM".

Wait. Customer care says you can, who wrote the article suggests to ask your DM. It's quite different.
I can also say "DMM works with persist, but ask your DM if he lets you do it".

Gandariel

2012-05-17, 06:51 AM

So.. you're not actually discussing the spell lists at all.
No prCs give extra spells (except for extra domains) and we can fix the domain thing saying: one god: you get 4 domains plus knowledge, ok?

I syppose you can agree on a good deity for that, tell us and we'll finally be able to compare the lists.

I think we all agree (Cleric + all domains) > (Druid) > (Cleric with no domains)

Now we only need to place the actual Cleric.
(Also, you don't start with 5 domains. you get the extra ones at certain points of your career.

eggynack

2012-05-17, 06:55 AM

Hooray. You're assuming one god.

...

...you do realize that doesn't address a single point in my post, right?

Also, you seem to be assuming relatively high-op as the standard. I play mid-op, and every IRL group I've been in has been pretty low-op. I don't remember ever once seeing a Cleric with 4+ domains. Heck, I'm not actually sure I've been in an IRL game with a Cleric using more than the base two.

All of which is anecdotal, of course. But so is your insistence that Clerics must be considered in context of having 4+ domains, and excellent domains at that.

I repeat: if you're bringing PrCs and ACFs into this, it becomes as much about the PrC/ACF as the class itself. If we want to ask which class has better PrC/ACF options, I'm totally on board with you. That's not the question that was asked though.

Their answer boils down to "maybe, we don't really know, so ask your DM".

I don't think it's really fair to assume only two domains for this one. Going cloistered cleric is an obvious decision for a dmm persist cleric, and contemplative is a really common dip. The real problem is that what those 4+domains are is so dependant on the build, that for any druid construct the cleric side can lay claim to a new set of domains that trumps the druid. What we really need is a standardized, all around good cleric build to use as the counterpoint to the druid, lest we go around in circles forever.

Melnir

2012-05-17, 07:49 AM

In fact only a few cleric builds get plenty of domains, but I think we should in this case consider 5 domains: knowledge, planning, one between trickery/time/travel, one between scalykind/destiny/city, one between pride/pleasure/family/envy.

So we have knowledge, planning, one domain to get awesome spells, one to get at least one persistent awesome spell, one to get some a good domain power (pleasure/pride) or to get some more good spells (family/envy).

If we go changeling add transformation instead of pride/pleasure/family/envy. If you use divine magician (do it) you can drop trickery/time/travel or scalykind/destiny/city (the second one it you get transformation too, the first if you don't have it).

Self-quote

Gandariel

2012-05-17, 05:51 PM

So.. what if we pick Planning, Undeath, Knowledge, Travel, and one more (one of the ones with Shapechange) ?

That should make everyone happy

Autopsibiofeeder

2012-05-17, 06:18 PM

So.. what if we pick Planning, Undeath, Knowledge, Travel, and one more (one of the ones with Shapechange) ?

That should make everyone happy

Since we're just looking at spellcasting and we're making a big fuzz about domains I would just like to restate what somebody else already mentioned: Druids can get access to bonus domains as well. You can dip two or three prestige classes one level for a bonus domain (e.g. Seeker of the misty isle, contemplative) and offset the animal companion loss with a feat. I am sure druids can get access to undead turning as well in one way or another.

It is all nice to add these boons to the cleric's power, but a druid can pull off similar things (with some feat investments...and let's be honest, a druid needs just one feat). I don't see a cleric grabbing the druid specials that easily and if he does, he does not have the awesome buff spells that complement them. A lot of the arguments here hinge on grabbing 5 or more domains and using turning fueled feats. A druid can grab a few domains and obtain turning. Can a cleric get proper wildshaping (before shapechange through a domain) and a full animal companion plus the awesome feats and buff spells associated with it that easily?

So much focus on cleric abilities a druid also has easy access to and so little focus on druid abilities a cleric just won't get easily, if at all. I think if you want to keep the comparison fair, you account for two domains, or two domains + knowledge domain.