4th Core Team Deathmatch in the Playground

[Surrealistik]

What is Fourthcore Team Deathmatch?

http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/p/overview-2.html

Character Creation:

http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/p/character-creation.html

I'm organizing a modified ruleset from the above site for a forum based fourthcore Team DM game, and gauging interest for such a game. Feedback is needed from those interested in playing. In the end I may host this on Mythweavers due to GitP's unreliable uptime/accessibility.

The additional rules so far as follows (this is what I need feedback on):


Starting level 1 to 7.

No Rare items.

Max 1 uncommon item per character level.

You can buy your WBL in magic and/or mundane items, and 100 gold in mundane items.

No item can have a higher level than your level + 1.

Max 1 duplicate item.

Max 1 boon/grandmaster training/alternative reward item.

Until end of the encounter duration effects created by characters last until their creator dies.

Themes allowed.



Added the following skill powers all players have access to by default to give more basic functionality to non-combat skills in the game. Suggestions on additional ones are welcome. May or may not use these depending on feedback:

Skill Powers:
Diplomatic Gesture - Diplomacy
Encounter * Charm
Standard Action - Ranged sight
Requirement: You must have not have attacked or damaged the target this turn.
Target: One enemy that can see, hear and understand you.
Effect: Make a Diplomacy check against a DC equal to the target's Insight + 15. On a success the target cannot make an attack against you until the end of its next turn, or until you damage or make an attack against it.

Demoralize - Intimidate
Encounter * Fear
Move Action - Close burst sight
Target: One enemy in the burst that can see, hear and understand you.
Effect: Make an Intimidate check against a DC equal to the target's Will defense. You gain a +2 bonus to the roll if you dealt damage to the target this turn or +5 if you bloodied the target. You take a -2 penalty to the roll if the target dealt damage to you on its last turn, or -5 if it bloodied you on its last turn. On a success the target is subject to the following penalties until the end of your next turn:

Grants combat advantage to you.
Can't make opportunity attacks against you
Takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against you and skill checks and ability checks until the end of your next turn. Increase this penalty by -2 per 5 points you exceeded this DC by.


Vexing Taunt - Streetwise
Encounter *
Move Action - Close burst sight
Target: One enemy in the burst that can see, hear and understand you.
Effect: Make a Streetwise check against a DC equal to the target's Insight + 15. On a success you mark the target until the end of your next turn. Increase the penalty imposed by this mark by -1 per 5 points you exceeded this DC by.

Mind Over Matter - Arcana
Encounter * Arcane
Move Action - Personal
Requirement: You must be trained in Arcana.
Effect: Make an Arcana check. You can use this result instead of rolling one skill or ability check of your choice before the end of your next turn.

Pray - Religion
Encounter * Divine
Standard Action - Personal
Requirement: You must be trained in Religion
Effect: Make a Religion check against a hard DC + 5. You gain a +2 bonus to this roll if you're bloodied or +5 if you have fewer hit points than your healing surge value. On a success, you gain one of the following benefits:
You gain resist 5 all until the end of your next turn. Increase this resistance by 5 for every 5 points you exceeded the DC by.
Your next attack is a critical hit.
You automatically succeed on one saving throw, skill or ability check you make of your choice until the end of the encounter.
You can spend a healing surge and regain extra hit points equal to the amount you exceeded the DC by.
End all negative effects active on your character.


Navigate Hazard - Dungeoneering
Encounter *
Minor Action - Personal
Requirement: You must be trained in Dungeoneering.
Target: One trap or hazard that you can see.
Effect: Make a Dungeoneering check against a hard DC of the target's level. On a success, you gain the following benefits against the first attack the target makes against you until the end of the encounter:
+2 bonus to all defenses against the target, plus another +2 per 5 points you exceeded the DC by.
If the attack has an effect on a miss, it does nothing to you instead.


Natural Remedy - Nature
Encounter *
Move Action - Melee 1
Requirement: You must be trained in Nature.
Target: You or one ally you can see.
Special: This power provokes attacks of opportunity.
Effect: Make a Nature check against a hard DC. On a success, the target regains 1 hit point and makes a saving throw to end the weakened condition, a poison effect, or an effect that deals ongoing damage, even if that effect doesn't normally end on a saving throw. For every 5 points you exceed the DC by, the target makes an additional saving throw in this way.

Anticipate Attack - Insight & History
Encounter *
Move Action - Personal
Requirement: You must be trained in Insight or History
Target: One creature you can see
Effect: Make an Insight or History check against a DC equal to the target's Bluff skill + 15. For each of the required skills you have beyond the first, you gain a +5 bonus to the skill check. On a success you gain a +2 bonus to all defenses against attacks made by that target until the end of your next turn, plus another +2 per 5 points you exceeded the DC by. This bonus does not apply while the target has combat advantage against you.


Finally, what level should we start at? I was thinking 2 or 4. The idea is to keep the level low to emphasize lethality, play speed, and the importance of tactics, teamwork, and clever usage of map elements over build.

[Tegu8788]

Again, I'll express my interest. I'm helping to move my little sister out of her dorm so I don't have time to read very much right now, but I'll get back to you with input as soon as I can. I would be happy with mid-paragon starting level.

Edit: I already know I'll bring a hybrid, but are you banning any sources?

[Surrealistik]

Probably won't be doing mid-paragon for the time being; too much overpowering cheddar is available at that level and tier in general.

The idea of keeping it low level is to emphasize lethality, play speed, tactics and teamwork over build.

[Tegu8788]

Mid-Heroic is what I meant, fingers and thoughts not lining up. How would daily powers be handled/how many fights per day?

[Surrealistik]

Essentially I'm thinking we'd work it like this:

Daily powers are usable once per match; make them count (these are default rules).

The combat itself goes on until the map objectives have been complete. As per the map rules, characters respawn upon death until the match ends due to objective completion. Sometimes this is capture the flag, other times it can be king of the hill, territory control, or a simple frag fest (first team to get X kills or that has the most kills after X rounds).

[50Copper]

Their rules are better.

[Surrealistik]

My rules are their rules with the exceptions that I've made additions to the existing ruleset to account for higher level play with magic items, allowed themes, and I've changed the duration of 'until end of encounter' effects to end on death.

The former is necessary to help prevent degenerate item purchases which are a non-factor in L1 play.

The latter prevents daily powers with encounter duration effects from being dominant, clear cut choices.

The addition of themes is a little more controversial and its impact more ambiguous, but I think it's worth trying; I like that they offer players more options. I can however, see some options becoming too dominant (Sohei and Noble Adept), but will address those issues as they come up.


As for the skill powers, I'm not sure if I'll feature them at all; that's subject to feedback.


If you feel that 4th core is best played at 1st level without themes and magic items, that's cool, but I'd rather there be a little more in the way of build options and diversity.

[CStevenRoss]

Because of the underlying mechanics of the game, doing anything besides 1st Level will fell sluggish and drawn out, in direct opposition to the tenets of FTDM that aim to provide a fast-paced, brutal contest of luck, skill, and wits. Moreover, we have found an enormous level of complexity within the 4E system using our admittedly stripped down and restrictive character creation guidelines, including a staggering amount of technicalities, interrupts, and overall bizarre interactions of the game elements. Take a look at the play-by-post match we have going right now for E1M5: Pinball Wizard, a map that literally places each dungeoneer within the confines of a pinball machine as pinballs.

http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/2012/04/play-by-post-match-09-round-01-pinball.html

Believe me, I've done this a few times, I know what I'm talking about.

[CStevenRoss]

I'd also like to point out, the official FTDM site has a pretty wide audience of dungeoneers (opponents) and a pretty steady rate of new play-by-post matches forming every couple of weeks. Each match tends to last about a month or so in real time (6 rounds of game time). I heartily suggest to anyone interested n this sort of mayhem to try out the time-tested method we have now, understand why everything works the way it does, and then go forth and tweak it.

I just don't want you wasting your time reinventing the wheel when so many have come before you in countless hours of playtests to get FTDM to the fined tuned killing machine that it is.

www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com

[Surrealistik]

Thanks for stopping by to provide input; it's appreciated. I'm honestly more than a little surprised you came by to comment (was the thread googled?)!

I can definitely see your reasons for keeping it L1. On the flipside, in a PbP medium given the inherently far slower pace and your recommended 24 hour time allotment per player for each round, a small increment in active options (say L2 or L4) doesn't seem like it'd make things too onerous to resolve; that's a lot of time for the DM and players alike to pan things out. Hell, I normally expect _all_ players in most PbPs to post within 24-48! In a live game though, for sure, the simpler the better. At the very least, I'd like to give higher level play a shot or two and see how it pans out.

That said, while you're here, I will admit that I'm not a fan of the luck based elements on most of the maps including Humiliation, and will probably act to curtail or rework the most impactful of those. I understand that random chance can and does provide excitement, but at the same time it also undermines the importance of teamwork, tactics and skill that I'd like to emphasize over all else.

[Tegu8788]

I've got ten builds I'm jiggling right now for this in the works. Some need four feats to get where I want, so those are limited. Would you, if there is limited interest, allow one player to control a team against another, but with some imitative rule to prevent too much nova potentional?

[Surrealistik]

For now, I'd build assuming characters will be L2.

And yeah, I'd allow two players to run two teams of characters if there is limited interest.

[Surrealistik]

Put together a fourthcore arena. It looks larger than it plays due to all the teleportation terrain powers.

Map:

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1uUPdafnJYqpGP6gi8Yyu3qvyVdDYZ_Xw0CdpMRCoYOQ/edit

Rules:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Wzi3Wq4gH0_2WZNw5F_i7v2nFEQc7neIXxOYlbnQi0/edit

Feedback appreciated.

[Tegu8788]

That looks like a pretty rough place to fight. I'm rethinking my characters to handle the terrain instead of the other players. A few skills sound pretty obvious.

[Snowbody]

Another way of explaining the statues' and control panel's death condition is "5 HP, regen 5" and "15 HP, regen 15"

I take it with telefrags, nobody gets credit for the kill?

When you say that the Slipstreams are "Hazardous Terrain", do you mean they are difficult terrain (normal movement costs doubled) or that anyone forced to move/teleport into it gets a save to prevent it?

Small typo in the "Slipstream" section -- I think "willing" should be "willingly"

I think you may need to clarify the language in the "Hit" section of "Shove Statue" to make it clear that you mean the number of squares the statue would have been able to move if it hadn't been stopped by making the attack. As it stands, since the statue can't move after making the attack, it will be unable to push the target.

When you summon the vortex, since it's 3x3, does the aura 5 emanate from the center square of the vortex, or from the outside edge of it (making the aura a square of side 13)?

The death laser isn't really a "Power" -- it's not used by a creature on its turn or as an immediate action on another creature's turn. It's more like a trap or environmental hazard.

Is the second 1d8 roll for death laser secret or public?

[Surrealistik]

The regen route actually ends up being more verbose because I have to explain when the regen applies given that the statues and control panel don't actually get a turn with which to trigger the regen.

Updated the telefrag, vortex and Killing Spree language so that the player gains credit for them (for the purposes of Killing Spree). Normally credit doesn't matter as the usual win condition is the team with the least # of deaths at the end of the match, but in KS' case it does.

Concerning Slipstreams, the latter.

Fixed the statue language.

The aura extends from the outer edge for 13 squares each side; unless something says otherwise, this is default behaviour for auras and close bursts.

Changed Death Laser to environmental hazard.

Secret. Updated the language.

[Snowbody]

Now I've gotten a chance to look at it more, I have a few questions about how things are intended to work. It looks like it would be fun to play in.

I see that the arena has a lot of elements that are static (the teleport pads, the slipstreams, ms of power) and some elements that are barely dynamic (the control panels, vortex, statues). Since the environment seems more like something to struggle against than something to use as a tool to knock off enemies, given the amount of work that will be involved and the almost certainty of death by messing with any of it, won't players prefer to use their regular powers, meaning the battlefield won't change all that much? I'd have to play it to be sure.

[Surrealistik]

I've been reworking the terrain powers recently, simplifying some, removing others.

The environment can be lethally employed through use of forced movement, and of course by activating the vortex, or destroying the control panels/using the statues.

If you have suggestions to make them more damaging/deadly and desirable to players, let me know. I may up the damage on some of the map elements, or reduce the costs for using them.

[Surrealistik]

Put together another arena; the Hall of Mirrors:

Map:

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1GlSN6WN9xwQDU2d6FGyxUUI0VeO4Mponpl9Ra7IrmZk/edit

Ruleset:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u5JePYfCSEUlQ-WMvN-grn3MYwXoIA5pFjxlN6I26LY/edit


Glowing rune circles are the teleport pads/respawn points.

Orbs are the mirrors.

Brown pads are the mirror respawn points.

[Snowbody]

More questions about conjuror's crucible.

When you say "attacks against statues automatically hit", does that mean that the attacker doesn't even make an attack roll? If so, that hampers any non-striker attacker since they don't get the benefit of crits . True, they don't suffer from critfails and humiliations, but I think that unless you're a striker you have a slim chance of successfully doing enough damage to destroy a statue.

Are the statues climbable?

Are the statues blocking terrain?

Are the statues hard corners (that is, are you prevented from going around them diagonally and need to take an extra square)?

Can the statues be teleported or subject to other forced movement?


Target: The nearest active statue which has not made this attack this turn and each object and non-prone creature in the line of effect to that statue.

What definition of "line of effect" are you using here? There are many potential lines of effect between any two squares. Do you mean "in any line of effect"? In other words, what is the cross-sectional shape of the death laser?


You teleport to a square adjacent to a random active statue.
Do you choose the square or is it random?

If a character tries to deactivate a magic device that's already inactive, what's the result?

[Surrealistik]

Yes there's no attack roll, and that means lower damage builds are slightly less likely to destroy the statue since they can't crit (I don't feel this is too meaningful a difference though)

Statues are climbable.

No. Statues provide cover, and occupy their space but do not block line of sight or effect as per true blocking terrain.

Statues aren't hard corners because they're not blocking terrain.

Statues can be subject to forced movement and teleportation so long as they're not immune to the source of either.

The line of effect that's ultimately chosen to make the attack.

Square is chosen, the statue is random.

As for your last question, nothing.

[Tegu8788]

I must say, both those areas look awesome, and insanely lethal all on their own. I can only imagine what happens when you throw in your own monsters on top of maps you create. Any player that isn't the highest op must weep.

[Surrealistik]

Haha, well I generally try to build to the op level of the party I'm dealing with; killing the party isn't the objective so much as consistently challenging it. Perhaps surprisingly, I don't much care for most Fourthcore adventure modules which I find tend to be rife with bull****/unfair elements.

In the case of the arenas, it's a pure PvP experience with 'disposable heroes', so I don't mind devastating/instant death effects so much there.

[Tegu8788]

I do understand that completely. No one is gonna get attached here. Originally I had in my head a simple gladiator type ring, at most a battlebots arena with a few obstacles that could hinder challengers. But these maps, they could double as an endurance test. Which adds another cool element to things.

[Snowbody]

In general:

The definition of Killing Spree says "You may spend more than one action point per encounter, but only one action point per round.". But this is a rule for the whole combat, not just when someone triggers Killing Spree.

Hall of Mirrors:
"Enter the Mirror Realm" states you count as adjacent to a mirror, but you're not really adjacent to a mirror (you can't use Move Mirror). I suggest "count as adjacent to a mirror for purposes of Project Power and Mirror Spawn"

Are the mirror images created by Mirror Spawn immune to damage reflected from a mirror? Are they immune to mirror realm ongoing damage? Is it immune to Ray of Ruin (a "mirror target")?

Can a mirror spawn create another mirror spawn?

Are mirror spawns created with items and APs of the creature targeted? If a mirror spawn kills two enemies in the same round, who gets the killing spree AP -- the spawn, the creature targeted to create the spawn, the spawner, or nobody? When the mirror spawn dies, does it vanish immediately? can it Respawn? If it doesn't, does the corpse still sit there, with its items up for grabs?

Some of the "Mirror Powers" are actions voluntarily taken by a combatant on his/her turn; some of them are automatically triggered when a condition is satisfied and are not really the same.

[Surrealistik]

In general:

The definition of Killing Spree says "You may spend more than one action point per encounter, but only one action point per round.". But this is a rule for the whole combat, not just when someone triggers Killing Spree.

That component is actually copy/pastaed from the default power.

That said, it's necessary in that Fourthcore DM hasn't made using more than one action point per match (it's intended that you're able to save the AP and spend it later rather than have to use it in the same round) part of its official background/general rules applicable to all matches. Personally I feel that this should be done, so the line can be eliminated from Killing Spree.


Hall of Mirrors:
"Enter the Mirror Realm" states you count as adjacent to a mirror, but you're not really adjacent to a mirror (you can't use Move Mirror). I suggest "count as adjacent to a mirror for purposes of Project Power and Mirror Spawn"

That's intended. You're not supposed to be able to use Move Mirror while in the Mirror Realm, and you can't because none are in your melee range. In contrast you can use any other power with a requirement that you're adjacent. I did add clarification that you count as being adjacent for the purpose of power requirements.

Mirror Image questions:

They're not immune to reflected damage; it's not an area or zone. Even though the images 'originate' from the mirror, I think it makes sense for them to still take damage from the reflect element. Otherwise, it's too easy to use them to destroy mirrors on a recurring basis.

They're not immune to/exempt from mirror realm ongoing damage (though it would make sense that they are, might change this).

They're not immune to the Ray of Ruin; it destroys all excepting the mirrors.

Clarified that the mirror image lasts until you or a creature you control uses Mirror Spawn again.

Clarified that images are created with the items of the targeted creature, but that they and the items vanish on death.

Clarified that images lack APs and that their controller gains the APs from Killing Spree.

Mirror Power is simply used to describe that it's a power that originates from a mirror. More complex auto-trigger events are done in power format for greater clarity.

Finally, I splintered off 'Mirror Impact' from 'Move Mirror' so that other forms of forced movement can trigger the mirror impact attack.

[Snowbody]

If a a mirror spawn tries to drop, throw, or give away one of its items, do they (a) disappear immediately, (b) disappear as soon as they have an effect, (c) last until the mirror spawn is destroyed, or (d) become "real" and survive the destruction of the mirror spawn? Can the mirror spawn use consumables? If the mirror spawn acquires a "real" item, can it use it? I assume it can't activate item dailies or encounters.

If a creature targeted by mirror spawn has pets/companion creatures/conjurations active, does the mirror spawn start with copies of those active? (I'm pretty sure there are no at-will summons)

[Surrealistik]

The mirror spawn's items last until the mirror spawn dies.

Only the target and its items are duplicated; nothing else is copied.

Oh, and it should be noted that as part of the Fourthcore DM base rules, consumables are not permitted.

[Surrealistik]

Threw up a recruitment thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13287700#post13287700

[Surrealistik]

Final day of recruitment for those interested.

[Surrealistik]

It has begun!

For those interested in following the action:

Note that this differs substantially from standard 4th core rulesets in that characters are L2 with mostly standard WBL, and that character originated effect durations that last until the end of the encounter instead last until that character's death.

IC Thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13349802#post13349802

OOC Thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13350234#post13350234

Combat Sheet/Tracker:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjKjYySklKeTdHI1c0RQY1laQVpRSk1ENkZfOE9jZ lE#gid=2

Map Info:

http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/2012/06/e8m1-hall-of-mirrors.html

Play Map:

https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1GlSN6WN9xwQDU2d6FGyxUUI0VeO4Mponpl9Ra7IrmZk/edit

[Surrealistik]

Round 1 Summary:

Team 1, Frag Count 0: Drop Count: 1

Zable has taken 49 damage, putting him at -12 HP. Zable is dying and has concealment.
Dascre has taken 39, putting him at -2. Dascre is dying and subject to Inevitable Wave.
Garumsh has taken 14, putting him at 24. Garumsh is dazed and subject to Virtuous Strike.
Shadow has taken 21, putting him at 12. Shadow is bloodied and subject to Infectious Fire item daily.



Team 2, Frag Count 0: Drop Count: 2

Trumpet spent his action point, has triggered Killing Spree, and is subject to Avalanche Strike.
Drums has taken 29, putting him at -2. Drums is dying and cursed.
Theren has spent her action point and is subject to Hero's Armor item property.

[Surrealistik]

Round 2 Summary:

Team 1, Frag Count: 2, Drop Count: 0

Zable died and respawned, scoring a frag for Team 2. He has taken 22 damage putting him at 15 HP and is bloodied, and dazed.
Dascre died and respawned, scoring a frag for Team 2. He has taken 39, putting him at -2. Dascre is dying.
Garumsh has taken 0 damage this turn. He is still at 24.
Shadow has taken 14, died, and respawned, scoring a frag for Team 2. He is at 33 HP with 5 THP.



Team 2, Frag Count: 3, Drop Count: 1

Trumpet has taken 13 damage, is at 28 HP and subject to Bloodhunt Rage.
Drums dies and respawns, scoring a frag for Team 1. He has taken no damage this turn and is at 27 HP.
Galinndan dies and respawns, scoring a frag for Team 1. He has taken no damage this turn and is at 27 HP.
Theren is at full health at 33 HP.


Mirror 10 respawns at mirror respawn pad 9, ending a Zone of Shards.

[Surrealistik]

Round 4 Summary:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjKjYySklKeTdHI1c0RQY1laQVpRSk1ENkZfOE9jZ lE#gid=2

Team 1, Frag Count: 7, Drop Count: 0

Team 2, Frag Count: 8, Drop Count: 1

[Surrealistik]

I'm currently recruiting more players in anticipation of the second match.

I'd really like to get a full roster of 8 players if at possible.

Those interested should post here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13409810#post13409810

[Surrealistik]

Round 6!

Score:

Team 1: 8 frags, 0 downs.
Team 2: 8 frags, 2 downs.


This is it. The homestretch. The last dance. The final showdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13349802#post13349802).

[Surrealistik]

And the match reaches its ultimate conclusion!

Both teams fought hard and well, but in the end only one could be the winner.

Team 2 consisting of the manic Dwarf Barbarian Trumpet, stereotypically smug Eladrin Wizard Galindaan, taciturn Half-Elf Elementalist Theren and charge happy Human Warlord Drums are victorious with 13 frags to 10 in an astounding final round that brutally levelled the opposition. For this glorious triumph, they have been provided a fine trophy commensurate with their incredible success:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13478960&postcount=70

[Surrealistik]

For those interested in following the action, we have moved to the Mythweaver forums after becoming sick of the constant GitP outages.

You can find us here:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22359

Note that at the present time, the forums are not entirely set up.

[Surrealistik]

The third match has started! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMlKmELIhgY)

Team Ichor vs Team Eff 2

in the

Vault of the Spider Queen (https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/15Wz_7YOMbaBSGhGlneBXX7qfhZ5CLSj5WPw9hOJx1K8/edit)



https://dl.dropbox.com/u/713896/4e%20-%20FTDM%20Tokens%20-%20HellishChrisHansen.png

After narrowly losing his last match 10 to 11, hellish Chris Hansen from Dateline NBC is out for revenge, teaming up with dreaded conservative pundit and sometime lunatic, Glenn 'the Badass' Beck (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/713896/4e%20-%20FTDM%20Tokens%20-%20Glenn%20Beck.png). Together with their band of psychopathic clowns and malevolent neo-con warriors, they have vowed to seize the Egg of Lolth and herald an era of evil the likes of which the world has never before seen.


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/713896/4e%20-%20FTDM%20Tokens%20-%20The%20Dayman2.png

Opposing this unholy alliance, the last bastion of light standing against the dark, is the ever stalwart Dayman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_JUlXh7sP8), champion of the sun, aided by Tim the Enchanter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZJZK6rzjns) and his gaggle of gallant do-gooders.

Who will prevail? Find out by catching the action below!


http://www.myth-weavers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22359


http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=5974778#post5974778