The things players do for xp

[Lord_Kimboat]

Recently I've started only awarding story xp since my players started becoming a little xp obsessed. I think one of them started thinking that if they leveled before an encounter it would go easier and so started to push that. Since then, they started hunting down the last monster in a group, exploring all side rooms/quests religiously and even went back to find other encounters once they found out where the 'final boss' was deliberately so that they could "maybe level up first".

While this works in a computer game, I find it really ruins the story flow. You don't hear Frodo saying, "Sam, we should make sure we ambush all the monsters and such along the way so that we are more skilled when we get to Mordor."

Awarding story xp at various points in the adventure seems to be working as they are no longer looking for monsters to fight and have worked out that they get the same amount even if they avoid the encounters. Unfortunately, some of them really liked that they got xp at the end of each night and could watch their progress.

[NecroRebel]

Compromise. Tell them, straight out, that once they're at the point in the story where they're going to encounter the boss, that they won't get any experience for fighting things that don't involve the boss fight. Then, if they still go hunting for other monsters, let them fight, but give them no experience for it, and don't let those battles count towards milestones. That way, they still get the benefit of seeing themselves advance after relevant battles, but irrelevant fights do nothing for them.

Alternatively, if they find the boss and go to find another group of enemies to battle for experience, have the boss find them. While they're fighting. So instead of just having to deal with the boss group, they have to deal with the boss group and the other one that they foolishly annoyed.

Alternatively, they find out where the boss is, leave to fight other things, and when they return to where the boss was, it isn't there anymore. Worse (for them), their procrastination has given the villain enough time to accomplish his goal, or at least take steps towards it, making things worse for everyone. In a story-driven campaign, this is probably the best option.

[Lokk]

You don't hear Frodo saying, "Sam, we should make sure we ambush all the monsters and such along the way so that we are more skilled when we get to Mordor."

Its in the extended cuts I think, not really sure I always fall asleep watching them.

Generally what I do to prevent this is put in traps that block the path or are just obviously extremely dangerous and deal brutal damage or death. Thought most of them time my players are more focused on the story as they know I will tune an encounter on the fly if its too easy, unless they are doing something creative that I didn't see coming. Then I give them there tactically earned easy victory.

[DrBurr]

I have 2 rules that I hope are influencing my meta players from doing this
1)You can only level at the end of a Session and you must take an extended rest
a)Extended rests taken in the center of dungeons risks ambushes from enemy forces or allow the enemy to flee
2)Time Sensitive questing, everything has some time limit some are just higher then others, for example rescuing the damsel from a Demon an hour tops or else she dies, while others like loot the near by tomb can be done at any point

[Crow]

Another reason I like old-school D/D.

[Blackfang108]

Another reason I like old-school D/D.

Old school / new school has nothing to do with this. Players do this kind of thing in the older editions all the time, so long as the EM allows it.

[Crow]

Old school / new school has nothing to do with this. Players do this kind of thing in the older editions all the time, so long as the EM allows it.

Not when chance of death is high, and the real xp comes from the treasure. Killing random monsters is chump change xp and not worth it.

[Fatebreaker]

Not when chance of death is high, and the real xp comes from the treasure. Killing random monsters is chump change xp and not worth it.

Yeah, but then you just substitute one set of wacky hijinks with another set of wacky hijinks with the intent of gaming the system. Which system you're gaming doesn't matter.

The attitude doesn't change. Just the methods.

[Blackfang108]

Not when chance of death is high, and the real xp comes from the treasure. Killing random monsters is chump change xp and not worth it.

I repeat: edition has nothing to do with your complaints.

[NecroRebel]

I repeat: edition has nothing to do with your complaints.

While I agree with your assessment, I can also see the argument for the opposite standpoint. In 4e, monsters are explicitly valued in experience points, unlike in earlier versions, especially the earliest earlier versions like AD&D and 2e. While the intent is just that those numbers are a convenient, easy-to-understand way to balance combats for a given group (unlike the Challenge Rating system from 3.x), it's easy for people to fall into the trap of assuming that since every creature has an XP-value, they get that much XP for defeating it. While untrue, it's nevertheless easy to think that.

[Tegu8788]

Just tell them they don't level up until they leave the dungeon. Or the players actually go home. They may want to kill everything anyway, but make them justify it. Are they sent to clean out if dungeon of potential threats? Are they monster hunters, in which case improving skills would be logical.

[Fatebreaker]

While I agree with your assessment, I can also see the argument for the opposite standpoint. In 4e, monsters are explicitly valued in experience points, unlike in earlier versions, especially the earliest earlier versions like AD&D and 2e. While the intent is just that those numbers are a convenient, easy-to-understand way to balance combats for a given group (unlike the Challenge Rating system from 3.x), it's easy for people to fall into the trap of assuming that since every creature has an XP-value, they get that much XP for defeating it. While untrue, it's nevertheless easy to think that.

The details of how you game the system are only relevant for any particular game -- your players may use different tricks than my players, even if we use the same system. But the folks who want to game a system will seek out ways to do so regardless of what system they use. It's an attitude thing, not a system thing.

[oxybe]

i agree with fatebreaker.

ignoring the fact that most gold is being guarded by horrible Clawed Fang-Beasts, the fact still remains that if players want power (i.e.: levels) they need to find a way to get at XP.

in this case it's treasure value.

at that point it's not "lets go scour the dungeon and kill every monster" it's "lets go scour the dungeon for every loose piece of copper or sellable knick-knack". this will also have the potential side effect of a dungeon-genocide since those coppers are usually held by the denizens.

either way : if players want to level and they want to game the system, changing the XP gain from monster to treasure won't help you the slightest. in both cases you, the GM, manage the XP, either by deciding "this dungeon will have X amount of monster XP" or "this dungeon will have X amount of GP XP".

and i can assure you, the players who would scour one dungeon for XP would scour the other. their methodology might differ, but their goal would be the same.

[Crow]

You have to make it risk/reward.

If you are making dungeons where it is trivial to scour the entire dungeon for every last copper, you are encouraging that behavior. If there is no/low risk, then why wouldn't you? Things have to be dangerous enough to not just challenge the players and make them burn a certain amount of resource. Things need to be dangerous enough to kill them.

Then it becomes a meaningful choice whether to go after that 8 copper or not, whereas in the no/low risk dungeon, it was a no-brainer.

This doesn't really even matter what system you are using. If your players are scouring the dungeon, you havn't challenged them enough.

[Fatebreaker]

This doesn't really even matter what system you are using.

So why did you say...


Another reason I like old-school D/D.

...when the attitude is not inherently associated with old-school D&D?

[Crow]

So why did you say...



...when the attitude is not inherently associated with old-school D&D?

Because it is a good example of the style.

[Musco]

What I did with my players (and it works wonderfully) is explain to them that stabbing a monster does not make him a better swordsman, it's actually thinking back in what he learned about it (even taking hits), plus the physicall exercise that gets him stronger, faster, etc, and that such thing usually does not happen in the middle of a quest, it is something that requires some time and a bit of peace of mind to recall and apply, so what it basically means is that I can plan a whole module based on their CURRENT level, because they WON'T level up in the middle of it (making math much less of a pain).
When the module is over, I do a quick recap of the significant encounters they had (combat or otherwise), quests they have completed, and award them the brunt of the XP there and then.

[Fatebreaker]

Because it is a good example of the style.

If the problem is one of attitude regardless of system, how does citing a system display a good example?

You could just as easily have said, "another reason I dislike old-school D/D," and it would be just as accurate.

There is, of course, an exception to this, and that is the d20 Munchkin rules. If you can dig up a copy, you're in for in for a treat -- it has an entire section on how to "properly" dismantle a dungeon for all possible experience and loot. It is, of course, very tongue-in-cheek and very self-aware. It's an amusing read.

[Crow]

If the problem is one of attitude regardless of system, how does citing a system display a good example?

You could just as easily have said, "another reason I dislike old-school D/D," and it would be just as accurate.

No it would not. Old-school D/D punishes this sort of attitude. Once every encounter started to become "balanced", it opened the door for the attitude of the methodical dismantling of dungeons without any significant risk.

[Fatebreaker]

No it would not. Old-school D/D punishes this sort of attitude. Once every encounter started to become "balanced", it opened the door for the attitude of the methodical dismantling of dungeons without any significant risk.

Players who want to game a system will search for ways to do so. The individual methods they use are irrelevant -- gaming [kills] for xp is no different than gaming [treasure] for xp is no different than gaming [candy canes] for xp.

Whether it's a party scouring for "very rich but very poorly defended mansions to rob" or a party scouring for "very powerful monsters whose weaknesses we can exploit" is still the party scouring for a low-risk high-reward encounter. The system really has nothing to do with it.

Old-school D&D only "punishes" this sort of attitude in the same way that new-school D&D does so, and that is when the DM decides to do so.

[Crow]

I'm not going to repeat myself, so I'll just leave you to wonder why I've only ever had a problem with this from 3.5 onwards.

[Gwarrar02]

I agree with Fatebreaker in that it is solely the DM's responsibility to drive the way the dungeon is tackled. Myself, as a player, will gladly do every single encounter for the xp/loot if they encounters are easy. usually my group and I decide after the first encounter whether or not to do a full clear or just main storyline.

Our DM will usually award us more xp based upon the amount of the story arch we complete at the end of the gaming session...this is key...if your awarding xp after every encounter then allowing extended rests then they are going to try to milk you for every point of xp.

We actually just had a session last week where we leveled at the end of the night,b ut had reached the Xp requirement with the first encounter.

Our DM is good enough where he actuallly breaks it down at the end of the night.

First encounter: 250 xp
Second Encounter: 300xp
Plot line: 1k xp
side quests: 300 xp each
Boss Encounter: 1k xp

He breaks it down like that ^. But, not until we are about to go home.