Open Chakra

[Aeryr]

How does it work?

"You can now bind a soulmeld or a magic item to a selected chakra."

Do you gain the ability to bind? I mean, do you gain a bind? If you are a meldshaper do you also gain an additional bind or do you still have the same maximum number of binds?

RAW I don't think you gain an additional bind but RAI I think you should, any idea?

[Cor1]

If you have a non-Incarnum-using class, it enables you to open one of your chakras. But you don't gain anything to bind to it. You need Shape Soulmeld for that.

Those feats are traps, ugly traps. I wanted to use Incarnum in my psion, and noticed that there is a psionic power that can open every chakra. As far as opportunity costs go, which is better : five feats, or one known power?
The spell versions are not much better... One distinct spell by chakra level, Wizards don't care, but, poor Sorcerers...

One thing I love to do is augmenting my manifester level, then Metamorphosis, to get more feats through more HD, use that to gain Shape Soulmeld, then the Open Chakra power, and happily bind stuff to chakras where I have no magic item.

[Aeryr]

Well... I know that they are traps, what I am trying to discern if you gain a bind when you open a chakra.


Because as RAW even if you can shape if you cannot bind you still cannot bind after opening a chakra, unless you have binds from a meldshaping class.

[Venger]

Well... I know that they are traps, what I am trying to discern if you gain a bind when you open a chakra.


Because as RAW even if you can shape if you cannot bind you still cannot bind after opening a chakra, unless you have binds from a meldshaping class.

you do not gain the ability to shape by taking open chakra.

let's say that you took open least chakra (feet)

you would not be able to shape any soulmelds if you didn't already have meldshaper levels.

let's say that you then took shape soulmeld (impulse boots)

you would then be able to shape the soulmeld to gain uncanny dodge, and you would also be able to bind it to your feet chakra to gain evasion (one way of getting evasion for a class if you can't dip rog2/monk2/buy the ring for whatever reason). however, you would need both these feats. shape soulmeld doesn't let you bind, open chakra doesn't let you shape.

make sense?

[Urpriest]

you do not gain the ability to shape by taking open chakra.

let's say that you took open least chakra (feet)

you would not be able to shape any soulmelds if you didn't already have meldshaper levels.

let's say that you then took shape soulmeld (impulse boots)

you would then be able to shape the soulmeld to gain uncanny dodge, and you would also be able to bind it to your feet chakra to gain evasion (one way of getting evasion for a class if you can't dip rog2/monk2/buy the ring for whatever reason). however, you would need both these feats. shape soulmeld doesn't let you bind, open chakra doesn't let you shape.

make sense?

That has nothing to do with what is being asked.

To actually answer the OP, whether or not Open Chakra gives you binds or just, well, opens the chakra is highly contested. General consensus is that the feat makes no sense if it doesn't give you a bind, but that there is no RAW support for this position. It's one of those things that should have been addressed by errata.

[Big Fau]

If you have a non-Incarnum-using class, it enables you to open one of your chakras. But you don't gain anything to bind to it. You need Shape Soulmeld for that.

Those feats are traps, ugly traps. I wanted to use Incarnum in my psion, and noticed that there is a psionic power that can open every chakra. As far as opportunity costs go, which is better : five feats, or one known power?
The spell versions are not much better... One distinct spell by chakra level, Wizards don't care, but, poor Sorcerers...

One thing I love to do is augmenting my manifester level, then Metamorphosis, to get more feats through more HD, use that to gain Shape Soulmeld, then the Open Chakra power, and happily bind stuff to chakras where I have no magic item.


That has nothing to do with what is being asked.

To actually answer the OP, whether or not Open Chakra gives you binds or just, well, opens the chakra is highly contested. General consensus is that the feat makes no sense if it doesn't give you a bind, but that there is no RAW support for this position. It's one of those things that should have been addressed by errata.

We actually have evidence of the intent of those feats: The Magic Item chapter references using feats to bind soulmelds to chakras. The only reason this is contested is because CustServ gave an answer contradicting that line.

[eggs]

There's nothing in the Incarnum system limiting a character to a limited number of binds. Those limits are imposed by classes. Because the feat explicitly grants the ability to bind a soulmeld to a chakra, it would be nonsensical if a Fighter could take one of the feats, and - for no reason stated in the rules - be denied the feat's benefit ("can bind that soulmeld to a chakra").

Where it gets sticky is where the feats and classes mix. The feats do not add to the number of chakras which can be bound simultaneously by a class, so by RAW, the class-based limits should still apply (stupid as that may become).

[Chronos]

To clarify a bit more: A real meldshaping class has a limited number of chakra binds they have available. No matter how many chakras they have open, they can only have so many binds at once. Presumably, this limit exists for all other classes as well, and is by default zero. If the Open Chakra feats/spells/power don't increase this limit, then it remains zero, and thus, a non-Incarnum-class with Open Chakra (and Shape Soulmeld) still couldn't actually use the chakra they've opened. By RAW, there's nothing in the feat that says it does increase the limit, but that makes it basically useless.

[Snowbluff]

Sapphire Heirarchs are damn good thanks to the spell version! :smallsmile:

[Aeryr]

Thanks for the useful answers, you rock people.

So:

RAI as intended probably is good for a fighter because it would give him a bind.

But is probably not good for a multiclassing meldshaper since he is still limited by its meldshaper levels, that limit the binds.

So if you want to use open chakra you need to use shape soulmeld (the feat) since a dip in any meldshaping class (in order to be able to shape soulmelds) will net your total of binds equal to 0.

That also limits the ways of gaining essentia, either to race or feats.

So, an example:

-A druid takes shape soulmeld as his first level feat, because soulmelding is awesome. At third level he takes share soulmeld because it is that awesome. And at sixth level he takes open least chakra because it is so much better than natural spell. He loves meldshaping a lot. So at seventh level he takes a level in totemist. His total binds becomes 0 so he can no longer bind any soulmeld? :smalleek:

Is it to far fetched to believe that Open Chakra gives a bind, that doesn't count against the limit of any meldshaping class that you might have or take in the future?

[JoshuaZ]

Is it to far fetched to believe that Open Chakra gives a bind, that doesn't count against the limit of any meldshaping class that you might have or take in the future?

It isn't at all unreasonable although it isn't RAW. It is fine from a balance perspective, and I suspect that most DMs if you told them about the issue would be fine with doing that.

[Aeryr]

By RAW the feat is extremely unusable, it might even be detrimental, at least by my reading.

That's why I am asking this here and not in the raw questions theme.

[Cor1]

The feats or spells to open chakras do just that : open a chakra to receive a bind. Now to actually bind anything to it, you need to get a shaped soulmeld. You can take the feat to do so yourself, or have your party meldshaper do it.

Yeah, that's stupidly slow to develop and overcosted to the Nine Hells. If you want to not pay for those, get Soul Crystals of Open Chakra and Greater Metamorphosis (change into a form with 3HD more than your level, gain one temporary feat, choose Shape Soulmeld, shape your soulmeld, open your chakra, bind one to the other, shapechange into a form with your level HDs, repeat the process until you've bound every soulmeld you want).

Almost-TO tricks, just to get the underwhelming Incarnum features? Sure, why not. I do that with my Psion just to get Blink.

[Psyren]

Those feats are traps, ugly traps.

For certain classes, yes, but not for all. Open Least is easy to get and can grant you all sorts of fun effects with the right soulmelds; it's also one of the only ways to get true evasion regardless of class.

[Aeryr]

But... that is assuming that you get one extra bind when taking the feat.

Seems a pretty decent assumption, but it still is an assumption.

[Chronos]

This is the first I've heard the Metamorphosis trick for a temporary feat for Shape Soulmeld, but you can do the same thing with a Chameleon's floating feat. Of course, that only gives you one feat a day, so though you could get a bunch of soulmelds shaped that way, you couldn't get them all bound using the spells/power.

[Psyren]

But... that is assuming that you get one extra bind when taking the feat.

Seems a pretty decent assumption, but it still is an assumption.

I treat it like ToB - you get a free bind from the feat if you have no levels in a meldshaping class, but if you do (or take a level in one later) then the class itself determines how many you get. Rather like Martial Study and an initiator class.

[Person_Man]

The Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra Feats are probably some of the most useful options in the game, especially at higher levels.

Lets assume the "weak" reading of the Feats. You take 2 levels of Totemist or Incarnate, which grants you 3 soulmelds, 2 points of essentia, and 1 chakra bind. You get some pretty cool bind options at that level. But lets assume that beyond that you want to multi-class or enter an non-meldshaping PrC. You decide you want to essentially give up your low level chakra bind (which is roughly equivalent to a powerful floating bonus Feat or low level spell) and spend 1 additional Feat on Open Whatever Chakra.

This essentially transforms your low level class ability into a much more powerful high level class ability, at the cost of just 1 Feat (or a spell or a power, which are also ways to Open Chakra). Your options would include various Save or Lose/Suck effects (Daze, Fear, Fatigue, etc), flight, displacement, telepathy, pounce, weird greater invisibility, super deflect arrows, unlimited Summons, incorporeal movement, and many more.

If you assume the "strong" version of the Feat, where Open Chakra grants you an additional specific chakra bind, then it's truly one of the best Feat options in the game.

[eggs]

Is it to far fetched to believe that Open Chakra gives a bind, that doesn't count against the limit of any meldshaping class that you might have or take in the future?
Nobody plays by RAW. That interpretation would be fine.

From a metagame perspective the classes' binding limitations just look like they're there to force Incarnates to choose several soulmelds to bind, rather than thoughtlessly binding all of them. That decision isn't removed or appreciably degraded by treating it as a specific bonus bind, and then just adding all binds from all sources together (because the same problem crops up with fairly common combinations like Totemist/Incarnate/Necrocarnates or Monk/Totemist/Spinemeld Warriors).

[Cor1]

This is the first I've heard the Metamorphosis trick for a temporary feat for Shape Soulmeld, but you can do the same thing with a Chameleon's floating feat. Of course, that only gives you one feat a day, so though you could get a bunch of soulmelds shaped that way, you couldn't get them all bound using the spells/power.

Oh yes you can. There's no provision for what happens if you lose the feat, so as long as you don't unbind the soulmeld, it stays there basically forever.

And if you subsequently shapechange into a form with too few HDs to have the supplementary feat, you can then re-shapechange into a form with enough HDs again, and get a different Soulmeld to shape and bind.

[Glimbur]

The feats or spells to open chakras do just that : open a chakra to receive a bind. Now to actually bind anything to it, you need to get a shaped soulmeld. You can take the feat to do so yourself, or have your party meldshaper do it.

Your party meldshaper can't help you bind soulmelds. They're all personal.

You can get a temporary feat via any trick you like, and spend it on Shape Soulmeld. It's unclear what happens to the soulmeld if you lose the feat.

You can also bind magic items to chakras. The rules for that are deeper in to Magic of Incarnum. It's kind of poorly organized.

[rot42]

The Epic Chakra Bind feat (MoI 213) argues that Open Chakra only unlocks the door to a tier of chakra binds but does not get grant you an additional bind. I prefer to houserule it more like Martial Study, though.

[Aeryr]

The Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra Feats are probably some of the most useful options in the game, especially at higher levels.

Lets assume the "weak" reading of the Feats. You take 2 levels of Totemist or Incarnate, which grants you 3 soulmelds, 2 points of essentia, and 1 chakra bind. You get some pretty cool bind options at that level. But lets assume that beyond that you want to multi-class or enter an non-meldshaping PrC. You decide you want to essentially give up your low level chakra bind (which is roughly equivalent to a powerful floating bonus Feat or low level spell) and spend 1 additional Feat on Open Whatever Chakra.

This essentially transforms your low level class ability into a much more powerful high level class ability, at the cost of just 1 Feat (or a spell or a power, which are also ways to Open Chakra). Your options would include various Save or Lose/Suck effects (Daze, Fear, Fatigue, etc), flight, displacement, telepathy, pounce, weird greater invisibility, super deflect arrows, unlimited Summons, incorporeal movement, and many more.

If you assume the "strong" version of the Feat, where Open Chakra grants you an additional specific chakra bind, then it's truly one of the best Feat options in the game.

I completely agree with you, open chakra can be really powerful and it has a really strong versatility, but you are already expending two levels a feat and sacrificing your capabilities of using a body slot for magic items. It might be a little extreme and it still doesn't offer any incentive for a straight incarnate.

BTW is there any magic of incarnum errata?

[Stegyre]

I completely agree with you, open chakra can be really powerful and it has a really strong versatility, but you are already expending two levels a feat and sacrificing your capabilities of using a body slot for magic items. It might be a little extreme and it still doesn't offer any incentive for a straight incarnate.
Well, I think that it's two levels, a feat, and a body slot for an awful lot of flexibility in what you can do, which is probably pretty valuable.

I think the question should be looked at as one of opportunity cost: what else can you do with these same resources?

(Mind: I think you'd have even greater flexibility with a psionic character able to take Open Chakra, Psionic. Now, you have the cost of one power, instead of one feat, and (more importantly) the ability to open multiple and different chakras, instead of just choosing one when you gain your feat.)

[Cor1]

Well, I think that it's two levels, a feat, and a body slot for an awful lot of flexibility in what you can do, which is probably pretty valuable.

I think the question should be looked at as one of opportunity cost: what else can you do with these same resources?

(Mind: I think you'd have even greater flexibility with a psionic character able to take Open Chakra, Psionic. Now, you have the cost of one power, instead of one feat, and (more importantly) the ability to open multiple and different chakras, instead of just choosing one when you gain your feat.)

Depends on what you lose. I don't want my Psion to take two levels in Totemist (can't be Incarnate when True Neutral) at lvls 19-20.

What else... well, I 'd take two levels of Psion, get the Open Chakras power, and use the bonus feat for getting a Psicrystal. A Feat Battery is better than two levels of soulmelds.
And if you already have a Psionic Feat Battery, you could get two levels of Thrallherd.
So yeah, the opportunity cost of two levels is kinda huge.

As for the item slot, well, if you can get them filled with Soulmelds, and get all the Necessary Effects by your class powers, then you can take VoP and still be good at adventuring. That opens up a whole lot of feat slots... yeah, Exalted feats mostly suck, but then it's established you've got everything you need already, so it's all bling. I, personally, prefer a character covered in rough cloth and surrounded by intrinsinc Bling Of Goodness to a character covered with a Christmas Tree's worth of magic items.

Lastly, for the psionic power compared to the feats : and that's why Magic wins at everything forever in 3e. "One power known" is a cheap opportunity cost, a feat is an expensive one. Even my optimized Psion, who has as many feats as powers known, would take the power over the feats, because you replicate five feats with one power.

[Psyren]

What else... well, I 'd take two levels of Psion, get the Open Chakras power, and use the bonus feat for getting a Psicrystal. A Feat Battery is better than two levels of soulmelds.
And if you already have a Psionic Feat Battery, you could get two levels of Thrallherd.
So yeah, the opportunity cost of two levels is kinda huge.

For psionic characters, sure it is. But the Open X Chakra feats aren't really meant for them; they're meant for classes that can't just contemplate their navels for a second and pry open a chakra all day. You can't downrate a feat simply because a power can do it better - not all classes use powers.

When you look at the kinds of abilities that a chakra bind, even a cheapo one like Feet, can get you - even without any incarnum class levels - it makes the feat cost quite palatable indeed. You open your Feet Chakra to get Perfect flight onto your Barbarian or Monk, not your Ardent.

And finally, remember that a third feat keeps your body slots open to both soulmelds and items, so for a really competitive spot like Heart or Throat it can be pretty worthwhile.

[Person_Man]

I completely agree with you, open chakra can be really powerful and it has a really strong versatility, but you are already expending two levels a feat and sacrificing your capabilities of using a body slot for magic items. It might be a little extreme and it still doesn't offer any incentive for a straight incarnate.


Reasons to play strait Incarnate 20:

Necrocarnum Circlet soulmeld bound to Crown chakra (level 2!) lets you animate any corpse with hit dice equal to your Meldshaper level (ie, your Incarnate level) into a Necrocarnate Zombie (which is much stronger then a normal zombie). Although you can only have one such minion at a time, you can do this at will. So you usually get to have your most powerful former foe as a minion/mount/etc.
Vitality Belt soulmeld grants bonus hit points equal to your meldshaper level multiplied by the number of essentia invested. So, for a 20th level Incarnate, that's 120 bonus hit points without any Feat or magic item investment (equivalent to the hit points from +12 Constitution). Even at mid levels, you're likely to see a 30-60 point additional hit points when you need them, which is a fairly big deal, especially since Incarnate's only need Wis and Con to function well.
At higher levels, many many soulmelds only scale well if you get the bonus essentia capacity from Incarnate 15 plus a Feat or Magic Item investment.
With the exception of a Necrocarnate (who starts out with less, but gains more as he sucks the souls from dead bodies), at mid-high levels a strait Incarnate will usually have the most essentia available.



BTW is there any magic of incarnum errata?

Nope.

[Psyren]

To add to Person_Man's list, meldshaper level also determines how easy your melds are to suppress. If you take too many hits there, a targeted dispel can really ruin your day - especially for Totemists who lose a great many offensive toys that way.

MSL also helps you punch through SR, but this only tends to come up rarely.

[Urpriest]

To add to Person_Man's list, meldshaper level also determines how easy your melds are to suppress. If you take too many hits there, a targeted dispel can really ruin your day - especially for Totemists who lose a great many offensive toys that way.

MSL also helps you punch through SR, but this only tends to come up rarely.

You two are both misinterpreting Aeryr's point. Aeryr is arguing that there is no incentive for a straight Incarnate to take Open Chakra.

[Psyren]

You two are both misinterpreting Aeryr's point. Aeryr is arguing that there is no incentive for a straight Incarnate to take Open Chakra.

But that goes without saying. It would be like a Psion taking Wild Talent.

[Dusk Eclipse]

But that goes without saying. It would be like a Psion taking Wild Talent.

Level 1 one-shot?:smalltongue: (though I always argue for hidden talent >_>)

[Aeryr]

Thanks Urpirest.

Wild talent can be an acceptable investment for a psychic warrior, and is rarely a good investment for a non psionic character. Open chakra offers almost nothing to a meldshaper, a bonus when binding to a chakra.

As it is it is much more useful for a non meldshaping class than for a meldshaping class.

[Person_Man]

You two are both misinterpreting Aeryr's point. Aeryr is arguing that there is no incentive for a straight Incarnate to take Open Chakra.

If you assume the "weak" reading of the Feat, then you are correct. There are many such Feats which are only applicable to very specific builds.

But if you assume the "strong" version of the Feat, then it's a great option. If you know you're going to use something like Necrocarnate Zombie for all 20 levels, then you might as well lock it in and gain an extra chakra bind.

[Psyren]

Wild talent can be an acceptable investment for a psychic warrior...

...at low levels, which is just when Open Least Chakra can be useful for an Incarnate or especially Totemist. Those classes otherwise have to wait until 4th and 5th respectively for e.g. their Feet Chakra.

If you're merely talking about 20th level, Wild Talent is useless for both Psions and Psywars by that point too, so the analogy holds.

[Aeryr]

If you assume the "weak" reading of the Feat, then you are correct. There are many such Feats which are only applicable to very specific builds.

But if you assume the "strong" version of the Feat, then it's a great option. If you know you're going to use something like Necrocarnate Zombie for all 20 levels, then you might as well lock it in and gain an extra chakra bind.

I was assuming the "weak" reading, since it is how it sounds as RAW for me, not that I like it.


...at low levels, which is just when Open Least Chakra can be useful for an Incarnate or especially Totemist. Those classes otherwise have to wait until 4th and 5th respectively for e.g. their Feet Chakra.

If you're merely talking about 20th level, Wild Talent is useless for both Psions and Psywars by that point too, so the analogy holds.

No, at low levels open least chakra (that requires level 6) is still useless for an incarnate (who gets to bind meldshapes to the least chakras by level 4) and for a totemist (who gets to bind meldshapes to the least chakras at level 5). At least as written.

If it offers an extra bind, it becomes certainly powerful, as Person_Man noted above.

[Person_Man]

I was assuming the "weak" reading, since it is how it sounds as RAW for me, not that I like it.

It's poorly written, so I respect the fact that different people have different opinions on the subject.

But for what it's worth, on page 103 of Magic of Incarnum the "Open Chakra" spells all say "A creature benefiting from this spell can bind a soulmeld or magic item to his opened chakra just as if he had gained the ability to form a chakra bind from a feat or class feature." The Psionic Open Chakra power has identical language. This states that the class feature is equivalent to the feat. The class feature (which is also poorly worded) grants a number of chara binds per day. So it implies that the Open Chakra Feat, spell, and power, each grant the ability to "form" a chakra bind, not just open a chakra slot to pre-existing chakra binds.

But again, it's confusing, so your reading is just as good as mine.

[Psyren]

No, at low levels open least chakra (that requires level 6) is still useless for an incarnate (who gets to bind meldshapes to the least chakras by level 4) and for a totemist (who gets to bind meldshapes to the least chakras at level 5). At least as written.

My bad, I forgot the level 6 minimum for that one. So yes, using the "weak" reading, the OC feat line are pointless for pure meldshapers.

But again, those feats aren't for them. MoI is intended for a wide variety of classes, not just pure meldshapers, and the extremely easy requirements of those feats reflects that. Hell, you can use your chakras without knowing a single soulmeld, by binding your magic items to them - a system the DM is specifically encouraged to customize (MoI 108), so you could end up with pretty powerful or flavorful effects sanctioned by the game itself.

And then we have multiclassing. What if you start off as something else first? Say, Factotum 3 (Int to initiative, all skills as class skills) or drop in two levels of Fighter on your Totemist build for BAB and feats, etc.? Or Barbarian as preparation for Totem Rager? These are all viable builds, which nevertheless happen to delay your chakra progression. The best part though is that once you have the chakras you need from your class levels, you can quickly bind Psion's Eyes, buy a powerstone and Reform the feats away late-game (or just use PHB2 retraining.)

So while I agree with you that the OC feats are useless for pure meldshapers under the "weak" reading (no additional binds), I feel that is a pointless argument to make since that's not their purpose anyway.

[Aeryr]

That's great to know, I hadn't cheked that. Personally I like the reading that gives a bind, if it is that way the feat would be a benefit for a meldshaping class, but when working on building a character I tend to work with the most restrictive reading. That's why I argumented in the "weak" reading side.