Feats to Avoid

[chomskola]

Hi guys, Im a new DM and wondering since some feats become underpowered with the increase in levels after lvl1, which feats..by core class to avoid? NO which feats may not be completely useful all the time, or which feats may appeal more to RP sensibilities..I mean which feats to AVOID AVOID AVOID. Example Toughness might seem like a bad choice, but its not completely useless especially at 1st level for a wizard as it gives you that extra survivability.

[Togo]

Feats that are strictly inferior to other feats, and feats that don't work as intended.

Toughness, because improved toughness is better
Weapon focus grapple, because it gives you a bonus to the touch attack, not the grapple check.
You might also want to take a good hard look at combat casting, that gives a bonus of +4 to concentration checks for casting on the defensive, as compared to skill focus concentration, that gives +3 to all concentration checks, including casting on the defensive.

Other than that, the problem with feats isn't that they are bad, or that they are good, but taht it's easy to take feats that aren't useful for the character. Low damage characters taking cleave, or low strength characters taking improved bull rush, or characters that can't tumble well taking spring attack.

[Gavinfoxx]

There are like... over a thousand feats in D&D 3.0/3.5e. At least 75% of them (maybe 90%?) are crap.

It's better to come up with a character concept, and then figure out what ways the system can actually help you make a concept in general...

[Lactantius]

Instead of avoiding, I would allow the retraining rules from PH2.
That way players can use feats at the level spots where they help, actually instead of planning up to a far, far away level.

Good "exchange feats" are:

- toughness;
- all reserve feats (they loose their impact as soon as a spellcaster has more than enough slots, but even at higher levels, some could still be worthy if you want a spellcaster who can contribute each round without depleting ressources).
- weapon focus, weapon spec. (if yours level 1-3 fighter starts with, say, longsword and finds a powerful magic axe, for example).
- spell focus (some school focus get powerful at higher levels and do nothing at lower levels, like abjuration or transmutation while some lose their appeal, like enchantment).
- combat casting: at lower levels, your concentration skill will not be high enough to make secure defensive casting checks.

[Curmudgeon]

90% of everything is crud; that's Sturgeon's Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Revelation) and it applies to D&D feats as it does in most contexts. (Movies made in 1939 are an exception, but there aren't many such categories.) So out of the 2000+ D&D feats you've got 200+ worth considering, and are still left with thousands to avoid.

Making such a list is futile unless you've got a couple of months to devote to the project. I suggest instead making a list of the feats that are good enough for anyone to consider.

Here's a start:

Power Attack, for most melee combatants.
Natural Spell, for any Druid.
Craven, for any sneak attacker not immune to fear.
Savvy Rogue, for any Rogue above 10th level.
Mindsight, for anyone with Telepathy.
Darkstalker, for any character who relies on Hide.

[Particle_Man]

Feats that are strictly inferior to other feats, and feats that don't work as intended.

Toughness, because improved toughness is better
Weapon focus grapple, because it gives you a bonus to the touch attack, not the grapple check.
You might also want to take a good hard look at combat casting, that gives a bonus of +4 to concentration checks for casting on the defensive, as compared to skill focus concentration, that gives +3 to all concentration checks, including casting on the defensive.

Although strictly speaking they stack, so if one wants +7 on concentration for casting on the defensive, for example. :smallbiggrin:

[Dairuga]

Oh, Question about feats that actually are good to take.
I have seen the mention of "Pounce" in so many places, that all melee attackers need to get their hands on Pounce.

Where do I find this "Pounce" feat? Or is Pounce an shortening of another feat? Or is it not a feat, but the ability of a certain class, meaning that said person will have to dip into another class to get Pounce?

Pardon the confusion.

[nedz]

Although strictly speaking they stack, so if one wants +7 on concentration for casting on the defensive, for example. :smallbiggrin:

The thing about casting defensively is that the hardest DC you face increases by 1 every 2 levels, whilst your skill can be increased by 1 every level. This makes combat casting of decreasing utility as you advance.

[nedz]

Oh, Question about feats that actually are good to take.
I have seen the mention of "Pounce" in so many places, that all melee attackers need to get their hands on Pounce.

Where do I find this "Pounce" feat? Or is Pounce an shortening of another feat? Or is it not a feat, but the ability of a certain class, meaning that said person will have to dip into another class to get Pounce?

Pardon the confusion.

Pounce is an ability which some monsters have; most famously Lions.
Pounce allows you to make a full attack after a charge, rather than just the one attack.
There are a number of ways of getting Pounce.
Dipping a level of Spirit Lion Totum Barbarian is the most often quoted, though SpC has a 2nd level Ranger spell called Lion's Charge.

[DeltaEmil]

Oh, Question about feats that actually are good to take.
I have seen the mention of "Pounce" in so many places, that all melee attackers need to get their hands on Pounce.

Where do I find this "Pounce" feat? Or is Pounce an shortening of another feat? Or is it not a feat, but the ability of a certain class, meaning that said person will have to dip into another class to get Pounce?

Pardon the confusion.Pounce is a special ability. The earliest way to gain it is either with spells, psionics, or a one-level dip in the barbarian class with the spirit lion totem from Complete Champion.

[shadow_archmagi]

The thing about casting defensively is that the hardest DC you face increases by 1 every 2 levels, whilst your skill can be increased by 1 every level. This makes combat casting of decreasing utility as you advance.

Truely. 15+Spell Level means that at level 1, you've got a DC of 16 for your best spell, and probably around a +6 to the skill, with four ranks and a 14 CON. So you've got 50-50 odds of avoiding an AoO

At level 10, the same character has a +16 to the check (actually by level 10 he probably has an item of +2 to CON so +17) but the DC for casting a 5th level spell is only 20, which means you've got an 85% chance of avoiding an AoO. Grab an item of +3 concentration and the feat is now worthless.

[navar100]

Feats that are strictly inferior to other feats, and feats that don't work as intended.

Toughness, because improved toughness is better
Weapon focus grapple, because it gives you a bonus to the touch attack, not the grapple check.
You might also want to take a good hard look at combat casting, that gives a bonus of +4 to concentration checks for casting on the defensive, as compared to skill focus concentration, that gives +3 to all concentration checks, including casting on the defensive.

Other than that, the problem with feats isn't that they are bad, or that they are good, but taht it's easy to take feats that aren't useful for the character. Low damage characters taking cleave, or low strength characters taking improved bull rush, or characters that can't tumble well taking spring attack.

Combat Casting is not useless. If you're a spellcaster going to be in threatened areas a lot, warrior-type cleric, Natural Spell druid, Combat Casting helps a lot. Really, unless you're a Warblade or Swordsage, you never need to make a Concentration accept for defensive casting. One time in a blue moon maybe for something but not often enough to take Skill Focus for it. That extra +1 from Combat Casting is a significant help. If you really, really need to cast defensive a lot, taking Combat Casting and Skill Focus Concentration with 14 CON and maxing the skill allows you to make all defensive casting rolls all the time for even your highest level spell on a Natural 1 starting at level 4. Obviously it depends on the particular character. A wizard or sorcerer can generally do without it. For the combat cleric, that's a big deal. A human can take both at 1st level to get it over with.

[Gavinfoxx]

Or, you could focus on things that improve your casting ability, get items that improve con, spend at most one feat on skill focus concentration if you desperately need it, and get masterwork items of concentration, and do stuff like five foot step and tactical things until your ranks automatically let you succeed on a one anyway.

[Roguenewb]

Combat casting's greatest use is that it is a feat tax to get into anyone of a number of PrCs that demand it for mixing casting and combat. Skill Focus (Concentration) is much, much better. Imagine at level 1, casting a level one with a CON 12, you're shooting a +5 against a 16. The difference between SF and CC is between +8 and +9, or a 12.5% boost from CC, but you still only have 70% chance. You only go down to 65% with SF, but if you fail the check and get hit, then Combat Casting abandons you completely, and SF is still on your side giving you a 60% boost to still pulling it off. I won't argue that neither is advisable at low levels, but unless you need CC for a prereq, SF is waaaay better.

Tl;dr: Neither is great, but SF is much better because it helps all the time.

[GoatBoy]

Combat Casting helps some at low levels, but as you go higher in level (like, 3 or more), increasing skill checks is SO much easier via magic items. Aside from that, Combat Casting is a feat tax for certain prestige classes, with a tiny bonus to make you feel like you didn't waste it completely.

When you think about it, from levels 1 to 20, you get 20 class levels but only 7 feats (minimum). Possibly even more so than class levels, feats are a precious resource and must be spent carefully.

Never spend a feat on something a magic item can do instead, especially a cheap one.

[ericgrau]

People will often tell you to avoid all the core feats when splatbooks are available, except those that are pre-reqs or synergize with splatbook feats or other character options. But without power creep the ones you should really avoid are almost all the skill feats and proficiency feats. There are sometimes uses for them, but the applications are really narrow. Toughness is only good at levels 1-5 so it's also a bit narrow. Run and endurance get a lot of flak because they help with things that most DMs don't even pay attention to. While others aren't so narrow, most feats are still situational so make sure whatever feat you select is for something you use very frequently.

With concentration DCs up to 29 and severe drawbacks if you roll low and fail even that one time, I don't think the concentration feats ever truly go obsolete until level 20. But the most common check, casting on the defensive, caps at 24 (15+spell level) and you can auto-pass it for your highest level spells by level 13. Ya skill focus is more generally useful but combat casting covers 95% of the checks and gives an extra +1 so pick your flavor. Custom magic items can provide a bonus too but they require DM approval. Like what I said above for feats in general, only take one of the concentration feats if you plan on a lot of melee casting. Like some clerics.

[Lactantius]

feat powers depend on the campaign-type,too.

As long as the adventure consists of the usual encounters/day, the power-level is as it is.

But imagine one thing:
a campaign focused more around politics, intrige, exploring and much less around combat (say, 1-2 encounters/day) will make the feat-power-scale shift.

With lower encounters, the encounter-specific feats will get more unimportant, or, at least, not THAT dominant as they were before.

I look at power attack, leap attack, improved initiative, the whole weapon focus line (wf, wpsec, weapon mastery) or at weapon finesse etc.

In the same perspective, feats that improve "other stuff" could get more important. skill focus can grow if skills are more in the adventure than just the typical, small set (spot, knowledge, tumble, search).
I see social skill, wilderness skills or crafty skills (forgery, professions etc) growing.

That's the thing which makes D&D so good: you can use it "out-of-the-box" or completely modular. For all styles, there are feats, skills and classes.

[Verte]

Well, from personal experience, I can say that Endurance and Diehard are almost always poor choices for a wizard :smalltongue:. Back then, I apparently knew not to bother with Toughness, but didn't realize that I would hardly ever need those feats. I mean, I guess they could be fine if you know that the DM will make lots of the sort of checks listed, but they weren't really used at all in the campaign I played in.

Concentration, as a skill, is certainly useful enough if you play a spellcaster. I mean, the DM is pretty likely to have your character get attacked by more savvy NPCs. However, Combat Casting and Skill Focus (Concentration) are basically a toss up - Skill Focus applies to all uses, so it's more useful if you plan to spend a lot of time on a ship, or in an area with a lot of earthquakes, but Combat Casting is still probably worthwhile if meets the prereqs of a PrC.

And yeah, the usefulness of different feats largely depends on the kind of campaign.

[kulosle]

So I was always under the impression that you should never take a feat that just gives a bonus unless that bonus scales or is a big one. You can get bonuses, from items, but feats should be used to give you more options. The only feats that just give bonuses I take are knowledge devotion, power attack, and the summoning boosting ones, unless the feat is for a prerequisite. I'm probably forgetting a couple of feats that give good bonuses but it's 3am and I can't think of any others.

[navar100]

Or, you could focus on things that improve your casting ability, get items that improve con, spend at most one feat on skill focus concentration if you desperately need it, and get masterwork items of concentration, and do stuff like five foot step and tactical things until your ranks automatically let you succeed on a one anyway.

Or, you can take Combat Casting, not rely on having particular items that aren't guaranteed to exist in the game, start the auto-succeed at level 4 instead of eventually, don't need to take 5 ft steps because you still want to move more than 5 ft after you cast in a threatened area.

[Answerer]

OK, for the PHB feats, I've crossed out all the feats that are actually worth taking for any reason other than meeting prerequisites or because you're playing in Core-only and you've run out of meaningful feats to take.

Note I've been somewhat inconsistent in that I've struck off some feats (like Precise Shot) that are necessary for a certain fighting style, but aren't really that good, while others (like Improved Sunder) that are also necessary for a certain fighting style, I haven't. This is because Archery is actually OK-ish, while Sundering is kind of awful. Where to draw the line on these is kind of dubious and I just eyeballed things. Also, parentheticals are notes of mine.

General Feats
Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Athletic
Augment Summoning
Blind-Fight
Combat Casting
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Whirlwind Attack
Combat Reflexes
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Endurance
Diehard
Eschew Materials (but only if your DM is annoying)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (but only if the weapon is actually good; that basically limits you to DMG Kusari-Gama, Greathorn Minotaur Hammer, Spiked Chain, Spinning Sword, and maybe one or two others)
Extra Turning (but only for fueling [Divine] feats)
Great Fortitude
Improved Counterspell
Improved Critical
Improved Familiar
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Improved Unarmed Strike
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple (grapple's not really a great strategy, but if you're going for grapple you need this)
Snatch Arrows
Stunning Fist
Investigator
Iron Will
Leadership
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Trample
Natural Spell
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Shot On The Run
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Overrun
Improved Sunder
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Run
Self-Sufficient
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
Tower Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus (but only very rarely, like Skill Focus [Truenaming] on a Truenamer, or maybe Skill Focus [Use Magic Device] on a low-level Artificer)
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Spell Mastery
Spell Penetration (in a Core-only game these may see use)
Greater Spell Penetration
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

Item Creation Feats
Brew Potion
Craft Magic Arms And Armor
Craft Rod
Craft Staff (but only if your DM allows it to make custom staffs and does not allow you to buy custom staffs)
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Item
Forge Ring
Scribe Scroll

Metamagic Feats
(Megamagic feats in general are awkward; without reducers, they're often over-priced. With reducers, they can quickly be come extremely powerful. Enlarge and Widen are the only ones that I just cannot imagine ever using, but that doesn't make the rest good choices all the time.)
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell

[Gwendol]

A bit harsh.

Mounted combat is very useful for those planning to be mounted...
Cleave is so so, but in a SRD only game there aren't that many more ways of getting many attacks. For a whirling frenzy barbarian perhaps? Combined with combat reflexes.

[Answerer]

A bit harsh.
Sadly, not really. There's a few you could make an argument for, but only a very few. The vast majority of those are basically impossible to defend...


Mounted combat is very useful for those planning to be mounted...
Yeah, it's necessary for people with a mundane mount to have any hope of keeping it alive, but... I dunno, it feels very much like a feat tax. You're taking it because of problems with mounted combat and because all other mounted feats require it, not because it's a good feat.


Cleave is so so, but in a SRD only game there aren't that many more ways of getting many attacks. For a whirling frenzy barbarian perhaps? Combined with combat reflexes.
Yeah, I considered including Cleave, but really... large groups of mooks are rarely a major threat to PCs, so it's kind of like specializing in handling a not-particularly-dangerous situation. Maybe. You can definitely make an argument for it, I suppose, but with even a few supplements it quickly becomes a feat that never gets taken.

[Gwendol]

Sadly, not really. There's a few you could make an argument for, but only a very few. The vast majority of those are basically impossible to defend...


Yeah, it's necessary for people with a mundane mount to have any hope of keeping it alive, but... I dunno, it feels very much like a feat tax. You're taking it because of problems with mounted combat and because all other mounted feats require it, not because it's a good feat.


Yeah, I considered including Cleave, but really... large groups of mooks are rarely a major threat to PCs, so it's kind of like specializing in handling a not-particularly-dangerous situation. Maybe. You can definitely make an argument for it, I suppose, but with even a few supplements it quickly becomes a feat that never gets taken.


Mounted Combat [General]
Prerequisite
Ride 1 rank.

Benefit
Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. (Essentially, the Ride check result becomes the mount’s Armor Class if it’s higher than the mount’s regular AC.)

Special
A fighter may select Mounted Combat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

I must really say no to this. If you ride a fighting mount, it may be perceived as the greater threat and thus draw attacks. Getting a skill check for AC is quite good, and gets better as skill checks can be done very high easily.
Yes, it's a feat tax, but compared with weapon focus, toughness, etc this stays somewhat relevant throughout the game (depending on character and mount progression).

[Curmudgeon]

Two-Weapon Fighting is bad. The subsequent feats in the chain are worse (same cost = 1 feat; worse benefit = lower chance to hit). Even if you get it for "free" as with Ranger combat style it's still a poor choice. Only select builds (like Dervish with high movement rates) will make this worthwhile.

[Chained Birds]

Two-Weapon Fighting is bad. The subsequent feats in the chain are worse (same cost = 1 feat; worse benefit = lower chance to hit). Even if you get it for "free" as with Ranger combat style it's still a poor choice. Only select builds (like Dervish with high movement rates) will make this worthwhile.

Or Sneak Attackers. The more hits you can (Attempt to) make, the higher the damage output.

[Curmudgeon]

Or Sneak Attackers. The more hits you can (Attempt to) make, the higher the damage output.
I fixed that for you. Attempts count for nothing. And TWF reduces your chances of hitting in several ways:

The obvious -2 (minimum) to all attacks.
The feat cost: if you picked TWF, you didn't pick something that would help you more. That other choice would be at least as good as Weapon Focus, so even in comparison to that weak feat you're effectively down another -1.
The doubled weapon improvement budget. If you're adding enhancements to two weapons instead of one you'll be about -1 worse to hit (and damage) with the same WbL.
Plus there are other downsides, like no benefit unless you get up close to creatures who can take a lot more melee damage than you can. (If you can make a full attack, they can make a full counterattack.) There's no benefit in a surprise round. There's no benefit if you need to move.

You've got medium BAB. You can't take lots of penalties to your attacks. The first rule of sneak attack: if you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.

[Telonius]

Biggest offenders, SRD:
Anything that gives +2/+2 to a skill.
Improved Sunder. Yay, a way to destroy valuable loot.

Outside of SRD: Monkey Grip.

@Answerer...
Quick Draw is useful (really, necessary) for builds that use thrown weapons. Agreed that it should be avoided otherwise, and that it's usually not a good idea in Core.

EDIT: Scribe Scroll can also be useful. Besides being mandatory for Wizards, it's useful on higher-level Warlocks (especially in tandem with a cash-strapped Wizard).

[Answerer]

Two-Weapon Fighting is bad. The subsequent feats in the chain are worse (same cost = 1 feat; worse benefit = lower chance to hit). Even if you get it for "free" as with Ranger combat style it's still a poor choice. Only select builds (like Dervish with high movement rates) will make this worthwhile.
I tend to agree, but I struck them because they're necessary for that fighting style, even if it's not a good fighting style. I noted in my post that I was kind of inconsistent about this. TWF got in, Sunder did not. *shrug*


Quick Draw is useful (really, necessary) for builds that use thrown weapons. Agreed that it should be avoided otherwise, and that it's usually not a good idea in Core.
I agree that Quick Draw is useful, but you can pretty cheaply get it on magic items, so it's not worth actually taking the feat.


You've picked out most of the bad feats. However, I'd note that some of them are bad in themselves, but important as prerequisites. Spell Focus (Archmage, Thaumaturgist), Skill Focus (Archmage, Loremaster) and Endurance (Horizon Walker) kind of jump out at me for Core PrC choices.
I specifically stated that they were feats that you would only take for meeting prerequisites (or because you were crushingly limited in your options).

[Roguenewb]

If you're rolling a bunch of extra dice (SA, Skirmish, and so on), the math has been done to show the superiority of TWF. At medium to high levels, you're always hitting anyway.

[navar100]

I disagree and have a few more.



General Feats
Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Athletic
Augment Summoning
Blind-Fight
Combat Casting
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Whirlwind Attack
Combat Reflexes
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Endurance (Only because of Diehard)
Diehard
Eschew Materials (but only if your DM is annoying)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (but only if the weapon is actually good; that basically limits you to DMG Kusari-Gama, Greathorn Minotaur Hammer, Spiked Chain, Spinning Sword, and maybe one or two others)
Extra Turning (but only for fueling [Divine] feats)
Great Fortitude
Improved Counterspell
Improved Critical
Improved Familiar
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Improved Unarmed Strike
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple (grapple's not really a great strategy, but if you're going for grapple you need this)
Snatch Arrows
Stunning Fist
Investigator
Iron Will
Leadership
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Trample
Natural Spell
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Shot On The Run
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Overrun
Improved Sunder
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Run
Self-Sufficient
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
Tower Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus (but only very rarely, like Skill Focus [Truenaming] on a Truenamer, or maybe Skill Focus [Use Magic Device] on a low-level Artificer)
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Spell Mastery
Spell Penetration (in a Core-only game these may see use)
Greater Spell Penetration
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

Item Creation Feats
Brew Potion
Craft Magic Arms And Armor
Craft Rod
Craft Staff (but only if your DM allows it to make custom staffs and does not allow you to buy custom staffs)
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Item
Forge Ring
Scribe Scroll

Metamagic Feats
(Megamagic feats in general are awkward; without reducers, they're often over-priced. With reducers, they can quickly be come extremely powerful. Enlarge and Widen are the only ones that I just cannot imagine ever using, but that doesn't make the rest good choices all the time.)
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell

[Answerer]

You're wrong about every single one, with the possible exception of Quick Draw, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and Forge Ring. But even those are not really worth it unless you're really abusing crafting to break WBL (or you have a terrible DM who won't let you get the items you need).

[VGLordR2]

Avoid Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu. Unless you're afraid of getting attacked by a hippopotamus. Or you have the urge to use Turn/Rebuke Hippopatomi.

[Answerer]

Blessed of Tem-Et-Nu is the best feat, I don't know what you're talking about.

[JKTrickster]

Navar could you explain some of your choices?

I would only take Blind Fight if I was going for Mageslayer myself. Otherwise it seems quite limited, but useful when you need it. I'm on the fence with that one.

But yeah its not like Point Blank is a good feat. And technically in core, there are not a lot of ways to reliably deal damage far away so Far Shot is wasted a little.

Everything else (like the save boosting feats) I more or less disagree with. Besides maybe the crafting ones.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I disagree and have a few more.

Yea, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree.

Blind fight - is very situational, and can be replaced by a simple spell, items, or very often flour. Ignore.

Combat casting - Has been proven to be a bad idea, in this very thread even.

Endurance, and Diehard - Much too situational, and Diehard can be replaced with Autohypnosis, if you're desperate, skill points are easier to get by than feats.

Great Fortitude - Worthless, unless it's a prereq, buy a cloak of resistance instead, or increase your con score for the same bonus and save a rare feat slot.

Improved Critical - Does not stack with the keen enchantment, which is available in many shapes, such as Oil of keen edges, or scabbard of the same.

Iron Will - see Great Fortitude

Point Blank Shot - a +1 bonus? Buy a better bow instead.

Far Shot - Generally not worth it, if you want to shoot at long range you'll pick a class such as cragtop archer and be better than the fighter who took this feat. Avoid.

Quick Draw - Might be worth ít for a few thrower builds, for everyone else there is least weapon crystal of return

Spell Focus - A +1 to DC, instead of a metamagic feat, or improved familiar, or something that actually does something? Not taking unless you're aiming for archmage.

Weapon Focus - If you can get it for free from the War domain, sure take it, otherwise this feat and the rest in the chain are giving too little for the cost. Better to go with power attack and shock trooper instead. This is for prc qualifying only.

Brew Potion - Arguably the weakest of the crafting feats and rarely used. If you can take this you're a caster, take a metamagic feat, or craft wondrous item instead.

Craft Magic Arms And Armor - Well, I don't know, I've never used it, and if you're a caster you only take this to make the rest of the party happy. Not helping the character much, but the fighter with weapon focus will be happy.

Forge Ring - Very specialized, rings are few, and very expensive. As a bonus feat it's ok, but at this level I'd rather pick a metamagic feat.

[navar100]

You're wrong about every single one, with the possible exception of Quick Draw, Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and Forge Ring. But even those are not really worth it unless you're really abusing crafting to break WBL (or you have a terrible DM who won't let you get the items you need).

No, you're wrong.


Yea, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree.

Blind fight - is very situational, and can be replaced by a simple spell, items, or very often flour. Ignore.

I'd rather not have to depend on a magic item that I can't guarantee I will have or a spell that will not be cast on me every time I need it. As for flour, good tactic, not always available. Of course the feat is situation, but it's needed often enough. It's not a must, must, must have feat, just a useful one.

Combat casting - Has been proven to be a bad idea, in this very thread even.

No such proof at all. I've shown it is useful for combat-heavy clerics and druids. I already mentioned wizards can pass.

Endurance, and Diehard - Much too situational, and Diehard can be replaced with Autohypnosis, if you're desperate, skill points are easier to get by than feats.

Autohypnosis is a cross-class skill for most people. Situational doesn't make it useless. It's a tactic, not an I Win The Combat. A feat doesn't need to be I Win The Combat. Some feats are better than others, but the ones that are not the better are not auto-The Suck.


Great Fortitude - Worthless, unless it's a prereq, buy a cloak of resistance instead, or increase your con score for the same bonus and save a rare feat slot.

I'd rather not have to depend on having any one particular magic item or else be The Suck. I may other ability scores I also want to increase. Fortitude matters.


Improved Critical - Does not stack with the keen enchantment, which is available in many shapes, such as Oil of keen edges, or scabbard of the same.

Who says I have a keen weapon? It's not automatic. If I have a keen weapon, don't need the feat. If I don't have a keen weapon, the feat is nice to have.

Iron Will - see Great Fortitude

Yes.

Point Blank Shot - a +1 bonus? Buy a better bow instead.

Which Point Blank Shot will still stack. Plus, it's a prerequisite for other feats.

Far Shot - Generally not worth it, if you want to shoot at long range you'll pick a class such as cragtop archer and be better than the fighter who took this feat. Avoid.

Archery in general isn't as well supported as melee, but Far Shot helps. Never heard of "cragtop". As we're talking Core anyway, irrelevant.


Quick Draw - Might be worth ít for a few thrower builds, for everyone else there is least weapon crystal of return

Again, I'd rather not depend on a magic item or else be The Suck. There's no guarantee such an item exists. Useful for two-weapon fighting. Useful for some rogue tactics.

Spell Focus - A +1 to DC, instead of a metamagic feat, or improved familiar, or something that actually does something? Not taking unless you're aiming for archmage.

Saving throw DCs can never be high enough. I may not be interested in metamagic feats. They're good but not must have. Not a fan of familiars myself, so Improved Familiar doesn't interest me at all. However, I agree it's a nice feat. I don't have to want a feat myself to recognize it's still a nice feat.


Weapon Focus - If you can get it for free from the War domain, sure take it, otherwise this feat and the rest in the chain are giving too little for the cost. Better to go with power attack and shock trooper instead. This is for prc qualifying only.

Helps with Power Attack. If you know you're only going to be using one weapon type, it's fine. Not for every build. Doesn't need to be.

Brew Potion - Arguably the weakest of the crafting feats and rarely used. If you can take this you're a caster, take a metamagic feat, or craft wondrous item instead.

It's a tactic. Allows you to buff party members without having to spend actions or spell slots. Fair to ask them to cover the gp cost.


Craft Magic Arms And Armor - Well, I don't know, I've never used it, and if you're a caster you only take this to make the rest of the party happy. Not helping the character much, but the fighter with weapon focus will be happy.


My cleric used it to craft a Holy Avenger for his paladin cohort. He also used it to give his armor Fortification. It's a tactic.


Forge Ring - Very specialized, rings are few, and very expensive. As a bonus feat it's ok, but at this level I'd rather pick a metamagic feat.

It's a tactic. Rings are nice.

[Doug Lampert]

Or, you can take Combat Casting, not rely on having particular items that aren't guaranteed to exist in the game, start the auto-succeed at level 4 instead of eventually, don't need to take 5 ft steps because you still want to move more than 5 ft after you cast in a threatened area.

With the useful skill focus concentration you are at worst 2 levels behind. That's the worst it can ever be. But by level 10 or less defensive casting is GUARANTEED to be forever and completely worthless.

While skill focus is still good.

So you're taking 11+ levels of wasted feat to avoid at most 6 levels of 5% worse on your combat casting?

[Duke of URL]

I'll put in my 2 cp to point out that with rare exceptions (such as Improved Toughness over Toughness), almost any feat can be useful in a campaign at very low levels. That +1 to AB from Weapon Focus is negligible at level 10 or so, but from levels 1-3 it might be a life-saver. +3 to a single skill at level 1 almost doubles your skill check (excluding ability modifiers) on a fully-trained skill.

If you know your game is only going to last for a few levels, or your DM is generous with retraining, a lot of the optimization advice about feats is irrelevant, because almost any feat can be used to give a specific character concept a boost right where he/she needs it.

Of course, as noted upthread, taking Endurance as a Wizard is just a poor selection, it doesn't invalidate the feat itself, which may be useful under some circumstances.

[DeusMortuusEst]

No, you're wrong.

Would you care to support your claims with arguments? It's much more fun to discuss things that way :smallsmile:

[navar100]

With the useful skill focus concentration you are at worst 2 levels behind. That's the worst it can ever be. But by level 10 or less defensive casting is GUARANTEED to be forever and completely worthless.

While skill focus is still good.

So you're taking 11+ levels of wasted feat to avoid at most 6 levels of 5% worse on your combat casting?

It's still useful as insurance against negative modifiers to your skill rolls while casting defensively. Levels 4 to 10 is real world time and effort. They matter. It's not a wasted feat.

[Verte]

It's still useful as insurance against negative modifiers to your skill rolls while casting defensively. Levels 4 to 10 is real world time and effort. They matter. It's not a wasted feat.

Ok, I definitely agree with this, since I've mostly played in that range of levels, and I actively don't enjoy starting campaigns at levels higher than 10.
I mean, Quicken Spell (without reucers) isn't going to see much use if the campaign ends at level 10, so in that case it may be a worse choice than Combat Casting or Spell Focus for a low-level caster. I'd also note that Far Shot is much more useful for thrown weapons than for projectile weapons, since it doubles their range.

I would say that feats like Athletic, Deceitful, or Self-Sufficient aren't usually good choices, since Climber's Kits, Disguise Kits, and Healer's Kits are relatively cheap and easy to find. Proficiency feats generally aren't that great, either, since martial weapons are usually just as good. Dodge is pretty bad if you don't plan to take Spring Attack. Point Blank Shot is pretty bad if you don't plan to take some of the other feats in that chain. Cleave and Great Cleave are fine if you know that there will be throngs of low-hp enemies throughout the campaign, but not as good if there aren't.


Autohypnosis is a cross-class skill for most people. Situational doesn't make it useless. It's a tactic, not an I Win The Combat. A feat doesn't need to be I Win The Combat. Some feats are better than others, but the ones that are not the better are not auto-The Suck.

I have to agree with this, too. It seems a bit odd to assume that just because a given feat isn't as good as the best feats it's as bad as the worst. Especially since the OP was asking about the worst of the worst, not the ones that are only useful some of the time. Plus, the fact that a magic item might replace a feat isn't a great reason, either - magic items still cost time and money, which are usually finite resources. Also, if no psionics are allowed in a campaign, autohypnosis may not be, either.

Some crafting feats are good if you know that there will be periods of downtime - especially if they occur in lightly populated areas. Craft Wand and Craft Wondrous Item can be useful to most casters, Craft Magic Arms and Armor can be useful for melee-oriented clerics. I also have to agree with this statement about Brew Potion:


It's a tactic. Allows you to buff party members without having to spend actions or spell slots. Fair to ask them to cover the gp cost.

[Doug Lampert]

It's still useful as insurance against negative modifiers to your skill rolls while casting defensively. Levels 4 to 10 is real world time and effort. They matter. It's not a wasted feat.

And negative modifiers to defensive casting concentration are FAR less common than uses of concentration for things that aren't defensive casting applicable.

Like say continuing damage, Combat Casting is no help at all and Skill Focus is still +3.

If you're safe at 4 with combat casting then AT WORST you are safe at 6 with skill focus. Defensive casting is NEVER, EVER, more than 2 levels ahead, and that assumes you don't buy a con booster or get another bonus at all. 4 to 10 is real, but 4 and 5 only is TRIVIAL, and the greater coverage of skill focus is very real and applies at levels 1 to whatever.

[navar100]

I'm not saying Skill Focus (Concentration) sucks. I will amend an earlier statement I made in that a spellcaster can make Concentration checks more often than I projected due to spellcasting interference effects. For a wizard or sorcerer, that's enough if it matters to the player. For the combative cleric or druid, or even just a buff others caster with touch spells and need to be in threatened areas anyway quite often, that +4 from Combat Casting will matter and help. The combo of the two provides safe casting from level 4. That is a big deal. No need to worry about 5 ft steps. No need for specific magic items. It's a tactic.

[Gwendol]

Cleave and Great Cleave are fine if you know that there will be throngs of low-hp enemies throughout the campaign, but not as good if there aren't.

This. Why the idea that if you're not up to fighting hordes of goblins(?) cleave and great cleave will see little use?
If you plan to do a lot of melee damage in a round (or in one hit) it *never* hurts to take cleave if there is room for it. Think wizard+familiar, druid+AC, rider+mount, or a pair of flanking rogues. The chances of fighting hordes of low HP enemies is maybe not so large, but fighting pairs of enemies is probably going to happen at least once every level.

[TypoNinja]

Gotta disagree on point blank shot not being worth it, seeing how as its a prerequisite for pretty much every other archery feat.

I guess you could call it a feat tax, but if that's the kind of build you are aiming for, very required.

[Downysole]

This. Why the idea that if you're not up to fighting hordes of goblins(?) cleave and great cleave will see little use?
If you plan to do a lot of melee damage in a round (or in one hit) it *never* hurts to take cleave if there is room for it. Think wizard+familiar, druid+AC, rider+mount, or a pair of flanking rogues. The chances of fighting hordes of low HP enemies is maybe not so large, but fighting pairs of enemies is probably going to happen at least once every level.

I agree with cleave, but how often is it that you get to see great cleave in action? If you are that much more awesome than the guys you're killing 3-at-a time, then you probably don't need to kill them that fast, unless they're pointing level 10 magic missiles at you and they all took Combat Casting AND Skill Focus Concentration (Gasp!), in which case killing them as fast as possible is a good idea.

Really, we like to send our damage dealer into the mix as fast as possible with the intent of smiting that robed bad guy, then following up with a cleave on the dude next to him. That's good action economy in our group.

[Gwendol]

Great cleave is another story. The problem is two-fold: the chances that you will drop more than two in a single attack is reduced, and (unless you have reach) that more than two enemies will be within striking distance isn't great either (on a regular basis).
It's not really a bad feat; nothing that allows for making more attacks is, it's just that its applicability is far from general. With the right build and campaign though, it can be awesome.

[Togo]

The problem with any defintive statement that X is bad and Y is good, is that it depends on your style of play. Just because a particular feat is something you would never use, doesn't mean it isn't a good feat.

Quick draw is useful for thrown weapon builds, and some two-weapon fighting build. That's why it is a good feat. Mounted combat is useful for... mounted combat builds. That's why it's a good feat. Any Feat can only be judged as part of a build that uses it - or else all feats are bad feats. Feats are often a chance to specialise your character at certain tasks. If you dismiss a feat because it's only useful for a small number of builds, you've missed the entire point of the mechanic.

I recently built a bard character with two-weapon fighting, point blank shot, and quickdraw, specialising in thrown weapons. And she's a lot better than I expected her to be. I've seen fencing style characters and monks with improved disarm do really well in the right campaign.

As for combat casting, sure, if you're in a campaign where the only time concentration checks come up is for casting on the defensive, then +4 is better than +3. If you're on board ship, and concentration checks come up every time there's anything other than fair weather, and skill focus starts looking like the better option. If your DM is fond of using mook monsters with readied actions, then getting hit while spellcasting may happen enough to make combat casting simply ineffective at what it is supposed to do.

It all comes down to the style of play. If you've decide which are good and which are bad, full stop, then your advice will only be accurate in similar games to what you're used to.

[Gwendol]

Sure, but some feats are simply grossly underwhelming. Others apply in rare circumstances, or under punitive circumstances.
What may look alright on paper turns out to be practically unusable in actual play. Having this discussion here helps us as players to weed out the bad options in favor of what might work for our characters in the games we play. There's no harm in that: saying that all feats may be good depending on the circumstances isn't really helping. Some feats are almost universally "good" for acheiving certain goals, others are more of a tax. Others should probably be avoided, always.

[navar100]

I agree with cleave, but how often is it that you get to see great cleave in action? If you are that much more awesome than the guys you're killing 3-at-a time, then you probably don't need to kill them that fast, unless they're pointing level 10 magic missiles at you and they all took Combat Casting AND Skill Focus Concentration (Gasp!), in which case killing them as fast as possible is a good idea.

Teehee


Really, we like to send our damage dealer into the mix as fast as possible with the intent of smiting that robed bad guy, then following up with a cleave on the dude next to him. That's good action economy in our group.

For situations where Great Cleave is possible, Whirlwind Attack would be the better option. However, they each require different feat chains, so it's the player's choice. Perhaps it should have been Power Attack -> Cleave -> Whirlwind Attack. Not a bad house rule.

For either it still depends on the campaign on how often the DM will use mooks where the tactic is warranted, the 4E minion-like bad guys of a 3E game. When the party is 8th level, how often do they have to get through 1 HD orcs?

[Downysole]

For situations where Great Cleave is possible, Whirlwind Attack would be the better option. However, they each require different feat chains, so it's the player's choice. Perhaps it should have been Power Attack -> Cleave -> Whirlwind Attack. Not a bad house rule.


I disagree. I played a fighter for about a year and a half on the great cleave progression, and had a really good time with it. This was when 3.0 first came out. I actually used great cleave quite a bit because I was dealing enough damage with my single hit to kill the one guy, then hit the next guy, then with second attack or third, kill that guy, then go on to the next. 5 hits for the price of 3.

Anyway, a few years later, I rebuilt the same character as a DMPC and threw in the whirlwind feat chain. I used it one time...ever.

[Oscredwin]

Great Cleave requires an attack action, Whirlwind attack requires a full round action. Have your shock trooper fighter charge in with a reach weapon and an enlarge person on him and he might take out everything in reach, which might be the whole encounter in a small room. The same fighter with WW attack will have to wait around (or use hustle, or travel devotion, or a maneuver).

Unoptimized Great Cleave is better than WW attack.

[dropdadgbe]

I tend to play low-op games, so I guess my priorities must be different from most of the people in this thread.


Two-Weapon Fighting is bad. The subsequent feats in the chain are worse (same cost = 1 feat; worse benefit = lower chance to hit). Even if you get it for "free" as with Ranger combat style it's still a poor choice. Only select builds (like Dervish with high movement rates) will make this worthwhile.
But honestly, dual-wielding weapons is also a lot of FUN. So what if it's not the most 100% optimized feat? If he's a brand new DM with brand new players, how optimized does he really need to be anyway?


Outside of SRD: Monkey Grip.

@Answerer...
Quick Draw is useful (really, necessary) for builds that use thrown weapons. Agreed that it should be avoided otherwise, and that it's usually not a good idea in Core.
Monkey Grip is fun too. Because who doesn't want to wield bastard swords two sizes larger than they are? The attack penalty is pretty killer, but the entertainment value makes up for it.


You guys are going to hate me for this, but I once played a wizard who dual-wielded flintlock pistols. He had a whole bunch of them, so rather than waste time reloading he just Quick-Drew another and kept shooting. Most of his casting was utility based -- he did a lot of flying and teleporting, not a whole lot of exploding. I had so much fun. ...actually, sounds a lot like Togo's bard.


Also, can anyone explain why "buy an item instead" is an excuse not to take things like Weapon Focus or Great Fortitude? I was under the impression those bonuses stacked.

[Downysole]

Also, can anyone explain why "buy an item instead" is an excuse not to take things like Weapon Focus or Great Fortitude? I was under the impression those bonuses stacked.

Consider how valuable a feat is. You only get a few of them and they can do some pretty amazing things. Using a feat to give you an extra 5% chance of hitting with your sword is dandy and all, but what if you chose to improve your wealth by level by taking a craft feat and gave your weapon a +1 enhancement bonus, which gives the same 5% hit chance, but also adds +1 damage per hit.

In addition, you can add other enhancements to your weapons, armor, and add crystals at low cost.

That's just one example. I'm sure if you compare this feat to any other on a mathematical basis, it would provide you with a good feel for which is better, based on what game situations you have to roll dice for more often.

[navar100]

Great Cleave requires an attack action, Whirlwind attack requires a full round action. Have your shock trooper fighter charge in with a reach weapon and an enlarge person on him and he might take out everything in reach, which might be the whole encounter in a small room. The same fighter with WW attack will have to wait around (or use hustle, or travel devotion, or a maneuver).

Unoptimized Great Cleave is better than WW attack.

Ah. Point.

:smallsmile:

[JKTrickster]

I tend to play low-op games, so I guess my priorities must be different from most of the people in this thread.

I totally understand that you have your own play style and that there are certain things you aim for when you build your characters. It's totally legitimate and I do not believe anyone here should criticize people for how they want to play.

I guess for me, building the character is often times just as important as playing them. It's not just creating his abilities, but it's a part of how I envision my character. If he is not objectively good at something, I will not say he is. And if he is not good at it, there is no reason for him to even dabble in it.

But again, that's a difference of opinion and I believe it's fine for us to have that. It is a stressful way to play though, I must say.



Also, can anyone explain why "buy an item instead" is an excuse not to take things like Weapon Focus or Great Fortitude? I was under the impression those bonuses stacked.

Mainly because of the amount of gold you get and the amount of feats you get.

Wealth by Level gives you a 6 digit number by level 20. On the other hand, most people do not even get 10 feats in their whole adventuring career.

A Cloak of Resistance +5 is 3% of your WBL at level 20 and it boosts ALL 3 saves.

You only get 7 feats (assuming you're not a human and your class doesn't give you bonus feats) so why waste a whole 45% of your feats on doing LESS than what a Cloak of Resistance does (only +2 to each save)?

It kind of goes back to the mindset I talked about. People want their characters to be undeniably strong. They may feel that mechanics is the only way to justify whether a character is truly strong or not (by being able to take care of appropriate CR encounters).

[Tar Palantir]

Mainly because of the amount of gold you get and the amount of feats you get.

Wealth by Level gives you a 6 digit number by level 20. On the other hand, most people do not even get 10 feats in their whole adventuring career.

A Cloak of Resistance +5 is 3% of your WBL at level 20 and it boosts ALL 3 saves.

You only get 7 feats (assuming you're not a human and your class doesn't give you bonus feats) so why waste a whole 45% of your feats on doing LESS than what a Cloak of Resistance does (only +2 to each save)?


Furthermore, those progressions are spread out throughout your career. By level 4 or 5, I can probably justify the few hundred gold for the quickdraw weapon crystal if I think it'll be handy, but I unless I only have one or two important feats in my build (unlikely) or need it for a PrC, there's no way I'll be taking Quick Draw that soon. Not to mention that I'll have four grand for a +2 Cloak a hell of a lot sooner than I'll have three feats burning a hole in my character sheet.

[dropdadgbe]

I totally understand that you have your own play style and that there are certain things you aim for when you build your characters. It's totally legitimate and I do not believe anyone here should criticize people for how they want to play.

I guess for me, building the character is often times just as important as playing them. It's not just creating his abilities, but it's a part of how I envision my character. If he is not objectively good at something, I will not say he is. And if he is not good at it, there is no reason for him to even dabble in it.

But again, that's a difference of opinion and I believe it's fine for us to have that. It is a stressful way to play though, I must say.



Mainly because of the amount of gold you get and the amount of feats you get.

Wealth by Level gives you a 6 digit number by level 20. On the other hand, most people do not even get 10 feats in their whole adventuring career.

A Cloak of Resistance +5 is 3% of your WBL at level 20 and it boosts ALL 3 saves.

You only get 7 feats (assuming you're not a human and your class doesn't give you bonus feats) so why waste a whole 45% of your feats on doing LESS than what a Cloak of Resistance does (only +2 to each save)?

It kind of goes back to the mindset I talked about. People want their characters to be undeniably strong. They may feel that mechanics is the only way to justify whether a character is truly strong or not (by being able to take care of appropriate CR encounters).
I guess I wasn't being clear. I agree that if you're only going to pick one, buying bonuses through items is more cost effective than spending feats on it. What I don't get is why everyone is treating it as an either/or decision rather than two things you can do both of.

EDIT: Also, a few people have mentioned crystals now. What are those from?

[navar100]

I totally understand that you have your own play style and that there are certain things you aim for when you build your characters. It's totally legitimate and I do not believe anyone here should criticize people for how they want to play.

I guess for me, building the character is often times just as important as playing them. It's not just creating his abilities, but it's a part of how I envision my character. If he is not objectively good at something, I will not say he is. And if he is not good at it, there is no reason for him to even dabble in it.

But again, that's a difference of opinion and I believe it's fine for us to have that. It is a stressful way to play though, I must say.



Mainly because of the amount of gold you get and the amount of feats you get.

Wealth by Level gives you a 6 digit number by level 20. On the other hand, most people do not even get 10 feats in their whole adventuring career.

A Cloak of Resistance +5 is 3% of your WBL at level 20 and it boosts ALL 3 saves.

You only get 7 feats (assuming you're not a human and your class doesn't give you bonus feats) so why waste a whole 45% of your feats on doing LESS than what a Cloak of Resistance does (only +2 to each save)?

It kind of goes back to the mindset I talked about. People want their characters to be undeniably strong. They may feel that mechanics is the only way to justify whether a character is truly strong or not (by being able to take care of appropriate CR encounters).

That's presuming you can just go into Ye Olde Magik Shoppe and buy what you want. Not all campaigns are like that. Some magic items are stereotypically more likely to be in treasure hoards than others. A Cloak of Resistance is one of them. It's nice to a have. Great Fortitude would stack with it for a nice Fortitude save. Rather handy to avoid save or die effects and massive damage system shock. Alternatively, one might think his saving throws are good enough, let another party member have the cloak, and take a different item from the treasure hoard.

It is my philosophy not to depend on having any one specific magic item or else my character is The Suck. I can have a wish list. I can adapt to what I find in treasure. I can appreciate the compensation of a disadvantage or a big bonus at something I already excel. At character creation I'm not going to depend on having one or else the build doesn't work.

[Venger]

I guess I wasn't being clear. I agree that if you're only going to pick one, buying bonuses through items is more cost effective than spending feats on it. What I don't get is why everyone is treating it as an either/or decision rather than two things you can do both of.

EDIT: Also, a few people have mentioned crystals now. What are those from?

weapon/armor crystals, such as the least crystal of return, which have mentioned up until now, are in the magic item compendium.

some of the crappy feats from core have been adapted into items, so instead of wasting a feat with mobility if you want to get into shadowdancer or elocator or whatever, you can just put mobility on your armor for a +1 bonus, leaving your feat slots free to take good things.

one thing that has been coming up in the thread is the concept of the feat tax, but I don't feel it's been fully explored.

is the mounted combat chain good? you could do a lot worse. however, the first step in that, mounted combat, is pretty darn lackluster. is the archery chain good? it's okay. but is PBS good? no, not at all. if that were the only feat in the tree, you'd never take it. is indomitable soul good? yeah. iron will on its own and not as a gateway to other cool stuff? not so much.

viewing the feat taxes as the only way to unlock cool stuff makes sense from a PO POV, but it doesn't really change the fact that these feats are all pretty lame.

[nedz]

We've talked about Combat Casting. This can be a good feat at low levels, but fades towards pointless at about 10th. So you have about 10 levels of utility out of this feat.

What about that feat you take at 12th ? You only get to use this from 12th level onwards. It may be the best feat in the game, but you had to play 11 levels without it.

[Downysole]

We've talked about Combat Casting. This can be a good feat at low levels, but fades towards pointless at about 10th. So you have about 10 levels of utility out of this feat.

What about that feat you take at 12th ? You only get to use this from 12th level onwards. It may be the best feat in the game, but you had to play 11 levels without it.

True, but why not pick feats that will be useful for all 20+ levels in lieu of only 10 levels?

[Gwendol]

In terms of feat tax, it would be good to agree what that is. In my view, a feat that offers a minor bonus to a skill or a roll with no scaling is a contender. All the skill bonus feats, point blank shot (the logic of PBS for Far Shot....) instead of the more intuitive weapon focus (bow) for example. The dodge feat is on its own not impressive (gain +1 vs one opponent), and few would take was it not a pre-req.

Mounted combat is however not a bad feat. It counters attacks that you know will hit the mount and it is a skill check, and thus is scaleable. If I planned on being mounted I'd take it anyway most likely.

[Roguenewb]

Other terrible feats: any feat that just increments a number tends to be worse than some magic item option. In general, the best feats allow you to do something new and different: like: using Dex for attack, subtracting from attack to do more damage, allowing attacks against you to hit harder so you can strike back, and so on. There aren't really any stats worth +1 or +2, so all the feats that just make something +1 better are a waste.

[JKTrickster]

I guess I wasn't being clear. I agree that if you're only going to pick one, buying bonuses through items is more cost effective than spending feats on it. What I don't get is why everyone is treating it as an either/or decision rather than two things you can do both of.


Mainly because you are only tying to reach some target number and you want to spend as much of your gold as possible and as little feats as possible.


That's presuming you can just go into Ye Olde Magik Shoppe and buy what you want. Not all campaigns are like that. Some magic items are stereotypically more likely to be in treasure hoards than others. A Cloak of Resistance is one of them. It's nice to a have. Great Fortitude would stack with it for a nice Fortitude save. Rather handy to avoid save or die effects and massive damage system shock. Alternatively, one might think his saving throws are good enough, let another party member have the cloak, and take a different item from the treasure hoard.

It is my philosophy not to depend on having any one specific magic item or else my character is The Suck. I can have a wish list. I can adapt to what I find in treasure. I can appreciate the compensation of a disadvantage or a big bonus at something I already excel. At character creation I'm not going to depend on having one or else the build doesn't work.

I like your philosophy, but DnD is a game that depends on magic items. Practically every character is a walking magical Christmas tree :smallbiggrin:

I don't see how you can reduce dependence unless you're a spellcaster, in which case you depend on buffs and use metamagic feats/other caster specific feats.

[erikun]

Of course, as noted upthread, taking Endurance as a Wizard is just a poor selection, it doesn't invalidate the feat itself, which may be useful under some circumstances.
I'm running a cleric with Endurance. Wearing breastplate while sleeping on the road is handy, and I've had it come up on checks to continue running and resist drowning.

It's a bit like Cleave: something you know you'll be using often, especially at low levels. It's not necessarily the best choice all the time, but it's hardly one of the worst.

[navar100]

I like your philosophy, but DnD is a game that depends on magic items. Practically every character is a walking magical Christmas tree :smallbiggrin:

I don't see how you can reduce dependence unless you're a spellcaster, in which case you depend on buffs and use metamagic feats/other caster specific feats.

I expect to have magic items, just not any one particular item essential for my character's build for without it he's The Suck.

[Tar Palantir]

I expect to have magic items, just not any one particular item essential for my character's build for without it he's The Suck.

It's not huge to expect to pick up something like a Cloak of Resistance or some stat boosters, but I see your point. The issue is that there are a lot more useful feats than you will ever have feat slots, and every feat you spend on something an item could do is a feat you're not spending on something an item can't do. Weapon Focus can be replaced with a higher plus on your weapon, but what can replace Power Attack? Extend Spell? Stand Still? For a feat that can be duplicated by items to be worth it, it has to be extremely efficient (like Knowledge Devotion; on a suitably skilled character at mid levels, it's like having +3-5 weapons on top of whatever else you've got). The choice isn't so much "take X as an item vs X as a feat" as it is "take X as an item and Y as a feat vs take X as a feat and learn to live without Y".

[Marlowe]

I'm running a cleric with Endurance. Wearing breastplate while sleeping on the road is handy.


mutter mutter Mail Shirt and Dastana mutter mutter cough Mithral breastplate mutter.

[Answerer]

I'm running a cleric with Endurance. Wearing breastplate while sleeping on the road is handy,
Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.


I've had it come up on checks to continue running and resist drowning.
I... don't know that I've ever made either check.


It's a bit like Cleave: something you know you'll be using often, especially at low levels. It's not necessarily the best choice all the time, but it's hardly one of the worst.
I also don't see Cleave getting used that often...

[Gwendol]

Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.


I... don't know that I've ever made either check.


I also don't see Cleave getting used that often...

Then don't pick the feat. If you know how to build a cleaver, it is a good feat. An extra standard action attack is nothing to sneeze at.

[Draz74]

I'm always amused by debates of Combat Casting vs. Skill Focus (Concentration).

Assuming non-Core material is allowed, you don't get Dispelled super often, you're not using either feat for a prerequisite, and you have a Constitution of at least 13 (duh, I hope), they are both clearly inferior to Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt).

Cleave is awesome. (Not THE most awesome feat around, but pretty feasible for any decent melee character.) Great Cleave is horrid.

Brew Potion ... no, no thanks. Potions just aren't worth either their cost or the action used to activate them. Some potions are worth using if you happen to find them in randomly-generated treasure, rather than selling them at half cost. But the only characters who should ever consider crafting potions are low-level Artificers.


Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.
Better yet, avoid using up your armor crystal slot and just build the Restful property into your armor for the same cost. As icing on the cake, get a bonus to Listen checks made while sleeping. (Dungeonscape. Not sure why this always gets forgotten!)

[Marlowe]

I'm always amused by debates of Combat Casting vs. Skill Focus (Concentration).

Assuming non-Core material is allowed, you don't get Dispelled super often, you're not using either feat for a prerequisite, and you have a Constitution of at least 13 (duh, I hope), they are both clearly inferior to Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt).


Never heard of it. But I'm a big fan of Five Foot Step and Don't Get Backed Into A Corner In The First Place.:smallbiggrin:

[Draz74]

Never heard of it. But I'm a big fan of Five Foot Step and Don't Get Backed Into A Corner In The First Place.:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, me too ... but for some reason, these debates always seem to be taking place in a setting that starts with "let's say, hypothetically, that that's not an option" ...

[nedz]

Never heard of it. But I'm a big fan of Five Foot Step and Don't Get Backed Into A Corner In The First Place.:smallbiggrin:

I once played a Bard who dumped concentration, he did have Tumble though.

Casting defensively is important for some casters, those using touch spells mainly, otherwise its just handy to be able to do it if you have to.

[Marlowe]

Ah yes, the different variations of If You Want Me I'll be Somewhere Else. I like those too.

So, in order of desirability:

1, Have room to maneuver
2, Have a way of moving past things.
3, Have two bits of Plutonium to bang together
4, Have Combat Casting.

Unless you like spamming touch spells. Agreed.

[Heatwizard]

It is my philosophy not to depend on having any one specific magic item or else my character is The Suck. I can have a wish list. I can adapt to what I find in treasure. I can appreciate the compensation of a disadvantage or a big bonus at something I already excel. At character creation I'm not going to depend on having one or else the build doesn't work.

It's +2 to a single save; it's not just a niche use, it's a really small boost to a niche use. That's not good news! And what kind of build are you assembling that can't possibly function without Great Fortitude? You won't shrivel up into dust and blow away on the spring breeze just because your Cloak got suppressed by a dispel.

You get seven feats. Everything you take has to be considered as 1/7 of a primary resource at your disposal. At high levels, the boost is trivial and easily replaced by magic. At low levels, it's an even larger share of your feats, resources you could spend improving your offense, so you could roll less saving throws. On top of that, it's still not enough to change the fact that at low levels, the result of a save is primarily luck-based; +2 is not going to change that.

No matter how you look at this thing, it's not worth it. It's a feat slot you set on fire to qualify for other stuff.

People tell you to buy an item instead for three reasons-
1: Because cash and items are liquid assets. Items aren't permanent whereas feats are. A Cloak of Resistance fills your back slot, but when you don't expect to be making any fort saves, you can stuff it in your bag and put on a Cloak of Charisma instead. Every minute you're not making a fortitude save, you're a feat behind everyone else. And you can sell off a Cloak if you're not using it; you're stuck with your feats. Unless you're using Retraining, which you may want to look into.
2: Because buying items with gold is a significantly finer grain then buying benefits with feats. Taking a feat is allocating 1/7 of your feats, and you don't get options on that. You can't take half a feat. But you have much more control over how much gold you invest in something.
3: Because Craft Wondrous Item is Great Fortitude and also one million other things, and also applied to the whole party. With a day of downtime, what the DM doesn't want to give you can, in fact, be yours anyway. Knit your own cloak, and spit in the face of the divine. And why stop there? Craft yourself a nifty little Intelligence-booster. Make strength gloves for your friendly neighborhood fighter! (He works hard for you.)

Secret Item 4: Because if your DM wants to blow past one of your bonuses, he'll just do it. If he wants you to flub a fort save, Great Fortitude will not save you. He'll push the DC up by 2, and you will cry bitter tears. There's no point in worrying about being caught with your pants down, because if He wants you vulnerable, your pants will vanish into the damned aether on the spot, nothing more then a fond memory and a gap in your fashion statement. An item can be dispelled or stolen, yes, but so too can a Con score can be damaged. A level can be drained. A penalty can be applied. That you spent a feat on it rather then a handful of gold does not, in the grand scheme of things, really mean anything.

[Marlowe]

I'll stop kidding around to say that Scribe Scroll is VERY good for Divine casters, although like any item creation feat it requires resources and downtime. Craft wand is maybe better in the long run, but requires still more downtime to make work.

[qwertyu63]

2 things.

1: This "Retraining" everyone has brought up. Where do I find that?

2: This bit of awesome...

Secret Item 4: Because if your DM wants to blow past one of your bonuses, he'll just do it. If he wants you to flub a fort save, Great Fortitude will not save you. He'll push the DC up by 2, and you will cry bitter tears. There's no point in worrying about being caught with your pants down, because if He wants you vulnerable, your pants will vanish into the damned aether on the spot, nothing more then a fond memory and a gap in your fashion statement. An item can be dispelled or stolen, yes, but so too can a Con score can be damaged. A level can be drained. A penalty can be applied. That you spent a feat on it rather then a handful of gold does not, in the grand scheme of things, really mean anything.
That was awesome. Mind if I toss it in my signature?

[Answerer]

I once played a Bard who dumped concentration, he did have Tumble though.
Bards can take a feat to use Perform instead of Concentration for the sake of spellcasting.

They can also cast a spell to use Perform instead of Concentration for anything, but ya know, limited duration and stuff. Potentially nifty for Bardblades or Bardsaders.


Casting defensively is important for some casters, those using touch spells mainly, otherwise its just handy to be able to do it if you have to.
Plus it's not hard to just do in most games anyway. The check isn't all that hard.


I'll stop kidding around to say that Scribe Scroll is VERY good for Divine casters, although like any item creation feat it requires resources and downtime. Craft wand is maybe better in the long run, but requires still more downtime to make work.
Scrolls, being generally overpriced, usually aren't worth making enough of to be worth the feat. If you're getting it free, sure, but...

Also, characters can work together on things. Therefore, anyone who's got a friendly Artificer or Wizard can easily make some scrolls if they want.

[navar100]

If the DM is going to screw you over regardless of what feats you have, you have other problems than the worth of spending the feat.

It's not like I'm saying Great Fortitude is the best feat EVAR if you don't have it you SUCK. As I wrote before, some feats are better than others, but the ones that are not better are not auto-The Suck. For some people a permanent +2 to Fortitude may be important to them and is worth using a feat for it. If they happen upon a cloak of resistance in addition, great, but until such time they get one, the +2 will do. They might prefer a different magic item altogether. It's a varying mileage issue, not a must have.

Some "not better" feats are The Suck. I just disagree as to which some of them are. Hopefully 5E will learn the lesson and not have any The Suck feats.

[Togo]

Secret Item 4: Because if your DM wants to blow past one of your bonuses, he'll just do it. If he wants you to flub a fort save, Great Fortitude will not save you. He'll push the DC up by 2, and you will cry bitter tears. There's no point in worrying about being caught with your pants down, because if He wants you vulnerable, your pants will vanish into the damned aether on the spot, nothing more then a fond memory and a gap in your fashion statement. An item can be dispelled or stolen, yes, but so too can a Con score can be damaged. A level can be drained. A penalty can be applied. That you spent a feat on it rather then a handful of gold does not, in the grand scheme of things, really mean anything.

That's a good point. Huge variation from table to table on that one though.

I sometimes play tournament games, where +3 on a single save is considered a reasonable investment, because failed saves lead to failed missions, and a DM who arbitraily added +2 to a DC would almost certainly be caught doing so.

I also play games where we don't really use dice, much, and the descriptive label of a feat is more important than it's mechanical effect. For example, the DM would let the guy with alertness make spot checks in some situations, because he's, you know, alert.

While it's a good point that a mechanical benefit might not actually make any difference, I'm not sure it's really relevent to the thread, because the same can be said of any feat.

[Heatwizard]

2 things.

1: This "Retraining" everyone has brought up. Where do I find that?

2: This bit of awesome...

That was awesome. Mind if I toss it in my signature?

Player's Handbook 2, p. 191.

And if you want, I guess.


If the DM is going to screw you over regardless of what feats you have, you have other problems than the worth of spending the feat.

It's not like I'm saying Great Fortitude is the best feat EVAR if you don't have it you SUCK. As I wrote before, some feats are better than others, but the ones that are not better are not auto-The Suck. For some people a permanent +2 to Fortitude may be important to them and is worth using a feat for it. If they happen upon a cloak of resistance in addition, great, but until such time they get one, the +2 will do. They might prefer a different magic item altogether. It's a varying mileage issue, not a must have.

Some "not better" feats are The Suck. I just disagree as to which some of them are. Hopefully 5E will learn the lesson and not have any The Suck feats.

Yeah, but it's a small bonus to a single, less then crucial roll; one that's actually pretty easy to boost via other means. That's the difference between it and the +2 to skill feats versus, say, Improved Initiative, which is a sizable boost to one of the most important rolls you make that's much harder to modify.

I just don't really see the point in defending Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, of all feats. They're bad, they're not really relevant to the character fluff, and they're boring as sin. I mean, Great Cleave is sub-par, but it's entertaining when it goes off, so there's something there.

[Answerer]

I'm not sure navar has ever heard of "opportunity cost."

[MukkTB]

When choosing a feat you need to look for these things.
#1 It gives you an ability you did not have before. (That ability must be worthwhile.) Weapon and armor proficiency fit here but those are mostly sub par. You could invest one level in a fighter class and get proficiency with everything. Leadership and Natural Spell are good examples. You could not cast spells shape changed before. You did not have a cohort before. And these things are potent. This begins to edge into territories like eschew materials and shock trooper which change your abilities quite a bit.

#2 It drastically improves an ability you have. Power Attack just makes you hit harder, but you hit a lot harder. Improved initiative just makes you faster. Not many other things do that though.

#3 X stat to Y ability. Generally I'd rather just have Z stat be solid. However in situations like low point buy or bad rolling you may not be able to get a good Z. X is all you have. Weapon finesse is nice. On top of that magic bonuses to X are now just as good as magic bonuses to X and Y were before, effectively halving their cost. (If you intended to get bonuses to X and Y.)

[MukkTB]

And you should avoid things that can be duplicated cheaply using other resources. That's why proficiencies normally aren't worth it. 1 level of fighter gives you all of them and some other nice things. Saving throws can be got with a few gold pieces. Many skill bonuses can be had for magic items or the skill check can be rendered moot by magic.




Now mounted combat is not a good option. But its not awful. It just has so many things going against it.
-It sucks in a dungeon unless your small on a medium mount.
-It doesn't protect your mount from area of effect things. 10th level fighter riding down a 5th level wizard on a 2 hd horse. Fireball and eating dirt is embarrassing
-It doesn't protect the mount from two baddies. Or 10 peasants. More embarrassing.
-It costs a feat.

That feat could have been wild cohort. Go look it up. But If I ever make a mounted character I'm first going to worry about getting a decent mount before I worry about qualifying for mounted charge.

[animewatcha]

Why avoid brew potion? Wouldn't someone want to have a hired cohort ( monk for saves and speed ) drop/shatter a potion of like reality maelstrom in the middle of an keep while the party sits back and watches the show from afar.

[Gavinfoxx]

Potions don't work that way... there are very very major restrictions on what spells can be made into potions, and it costs a WHOLE TON of money to make a spell into a potion. Just use a scroll or something. Also, Spell Gems or Prayer Runes are better than Potions...

[Curmudgeon]

Why avoid brew potion? Wouldn't someone want to have a hired cohort ( monk for saves and speed ) drop/shatter a potion of like reality maelstrom in the middle of an keep while the party sits back and watches the show from afar.
Is the keep a creature who can swallow liquids?
A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target. So you'd need to make a keep into a creature who can swallow a potion (or into a creature who won't complain when you rub oil on its exterior ─ not interior surfaces like floors) and to find a way to reduce Reality Maelstrom from 9th level to 3rd. :smallamused:

[animewatcha]

Okay, so dominate or something an unfortunate soul to drink it at the appropriate area.

As far as the level restriction. Magic of Faerun. Master alchemist. Start providing stuff like time stop to the party.

[willpell]

I just don't really see the point in defending Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, of all feats. They're bad, they're not really relevant to the character fluff, and they're boring as sin.

Just be glad they aren't the Incarnum versions (Cerulean Fort/Ref/Will); those only give +1. In theory they can eventually improve to as much as +5 if you take another feat and get to level 18, but you need to find 4 other Essentia, and almost every way of gaining it also gives you a better use for it. Did I mention that if you need your Cerulean Reflexes once you need to give up that Essentia for 24 hours?

[erikun]

mutter mutter Mail Shirt and Dastana mutter mutter cough Mithral breastplate mutter.
I find these recommendations funny; why wear mithral breastplate instead of mithral fullplate? The +1 AC from the dastana (looking it up, that is the benefit) certainly doesn't make up for it. And 4000gp for armor is not available at first level, or really hasn't been available until 5th level in my current campaign.


Restful Crystal gets that benefit for a measly 500 gp.

Better yet, avoid using up your armor crystal slot and just build the Restful property into your armor for the same cost. As icing on the cake, get a bonus to Listen checks made while sleeping. (Dungeonscape. Not sure why this always gets forgotten!)
Not with just PHB + PHB2, it isn't.


I... don't know that I've ever made either check.

I also don't see Cleave getting used that often...
Don't take this the wrong way, but I'd think your campaigns are rather odd.

[shadow_archmagi]

I've gotta argue in favor of Improved Critical. A Scabbard of Keen Edges is 16k, and a Keen weapon is 32k. Improved Critical is available at level 8, at which point the character has 27k.

I don't know about your games, but the ones I'm in always end long before level 15+, at which point yeah, Scabbards of Keen Edges for everyone.

But at level 10? I *guess* I could get a Scabbard, if I want to spend fully a third of my wealth.

Improved Critical also works on multiple (identical) weapons, so for TWF (or FWF for those thri-kreen builds) it's far, far more cost effective.

[Marlowe]

I find these recommendations funny; why wear mithral breastplate instead of mithral fullplate? The +1 AC from the dastana (looking it up, that is the benefit) certainly doesn't make up for it. And 4000gp for armor is not available at first level, or really hasn't been available until 5th level in my current campaign.




Because mithral fullplate is medium armour and still fatigues you. The dastana goes only with the mail shirt and can't go with a breastplate. the point is that mail shirt and dastana OR mithral breastplate both give the same as your breastplate and don't fatigue you. MS+Dastana only costs 125. Less than a standard breastplate.

Note that if money is an issue, most 1st level characters don't have money for anything but light armour (maybe scale mail) either.

In fact, nothing you've written here is a valid objection.:smallconfused:

EDIT: Oh, I get it now. You're trying to have it both ways. You're poo-pooing the breastplate for being too expensive and then saying you'd rather have the fullplate and Endurance. Even though that's even more expensive.Let's summarize.

Mail shirt+dastana is the same AC as your basic breastplate, cheaper, and doesn't fatigue you or slow you down. Problem is not everyone allows Dastana.

Mithral breastplate costs more gp, but doesn't involve blowing a feat and also gives the same AC and doesn't slow you down.

Mithral fullplate gives you +3 AC to these two, but you retain the wasted feat, you are still slowed down, and the difference in cost is now enough that you could buy sufficient enhancements on your Breastplate and buckler to make up the AC difference.

Just a question, has your group ever had to run away from something? Reduced movement can easily equal certain death. Yet it's not something you're taking into consideration at all.

[Draz74]

I've gotta argue in favor of Improved Critical. A Scabbard of Keen Edges is 16k, and a Keen weapon is 32k. Improved Critical is available at level 8, at which point the character has 27k.

I don't know about your games, but the ones I'm in always end long before level 15+, at which point yeah, Scabbards of Keen Edges for everyone.

But at level 10? I *guess* I could get a Scabbard, if I want to spend fully a third of my wealth.

Improved Critical also works on multiple (identical) weapons, so for TWF (or FWF for those thri-kreen builds) it's far, far more cost effective.

Plus, it's compatible with Bless Weapon spells, Slowing Burst enhancements, Enervating enhancements, etc. ...

[Marlowe]

Real problem with Improved Critical isn't that it can be duplicated by an item, it's that there's so many things immune to crits. Also the weapons with nice crit ranges tend to be a bit lacking in other areas. It's a nice fluffy feat but I wouldn't build a house on it.

Looks at that horrendous mixed metaphor and presses send anyway.

[MukkTB]

Forget running away. Trying to close distance is a lot easier when you're 50% faster.

[SowZ]

OK, for the PHB feats, I've crossed out all the feats that are actually worth taking for any reason other than meeting prerequisites or because you're playing in Core-only and you've run out of meaningful feats to take.

Note I've been somewhat inconsistent in that I've struck off some feats (like Precise Shot) that are necessary for a certain fighting style, but aren't really that good, while others (like Improved Sunder) that are also necessary for a certain fighting style, I haven't. This is because Archery is actually OK-ish, while Sundering is kind of awful. Where to draw the line on these is kind of dubious and I just eyeballed things. Also, parentheticals are notes of mine.

General Feats
Acrobatic
Agile
Alertness
Animal Affinity
Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)
Athletic
Augment Summoning
Blind-Fight
Combat Casting
Combat Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint
Improved Trip
Whirlwind Attack
Combat Reflexes
Deceitful
Deft Hands
Diligent
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Endurance
Diehard
Eschew Materials (but only if your DM is annoying)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (but only if the weapon is actually good; that basically limits you to DMG Kusari-Gama, Greathorn Minotaur Hammer, Spiked Chain, Spinning Sword, and maybe one or two others)
Extra Turning (but only for fueling [Divine] feats)
Great Fortitude
Improved Counterspell
Improved Critical
Improved Familiar
Improved Initiative
Improved Turning
Improved Unarmed Strike
Deflect Arrows
Improved Grapple (grapple's not really a great strategy, but if you're going for grapple you need this)
Snatch Arrows
Stunning Fist
Investigator
Iron Will
Leadership
Lightning Reflexes
Magical Aptitude
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Trample
Natural Spell
Negotiator
Nimble Fingers
Persuasive
Point Blank Shot
Far Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Manyshot
Shot On The Run
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Bull Rush
Improved Overrun
Improved Sunder
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Run
Self-Sufficient
Shield Proficiency
Improved Shield Bash
Tower Shield Proficiency
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Skill Focus (but only very rarely, like Skill Focus [Truenaming] on a Truenamer, or maybe Skill Focus [Use Magic Device] on a low-level Artificer)
Spell Focus
Greater Spell Focus
Spell Mastery
Spell Penetration (in a Core-only game these may see use)
Greater Spell Penetration
Stealthy
Toughness
Track
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Specialization

Item Creation Feats
Brew Potion
Craft Magic Arms And Armor
Craft Rod
Craft Staff (but only if your DM allows it to make custom staffs and does not allow you to buy custom staffs)
Craft Wand
Craft Wondrous Item
Forge Ring
Scribe Scroll

Metamagic Feats
(Megamagic feats in general are awkward; without reducers, they're often over-priced. With reducers, they can quickly be come extremely powerful. Enlarge and Widen are the only ones that I just cannot imagine ever using, but that doesn't make the rest good choices all the time.)
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Widen Spell

Haha! At first I read this list as you crossing out the feats you thought were bad and leaving the good ones I thought, wow, this guy is being ironic or a bit of a moron, hehe.

[TypoNinja]

Real problem with Improved Critical isn't that it can be duplicated by an item, it's that there's so many things immune to crits. Also the weapons with nice crit ranges tend to be a bit lacking in other areas. It's a nice fluffy feat but I wouldn't build a house on it.

Looks at that horrendous mixed metaphor and presses send anyway.

Truedeath crystal lets you crit (and sneak attack) undead. Wouldn't take much to justify to the DM that a construct and ooze version should also exist. So for some extra cost you get your oomph back.

I don't know if the math on improved crit (average damage increase vs other options) works out or not, but I do know that there is the undeniable satisfaction of Critting and just straight up dismembering the ****ing thing over just 'killing' it. That's damn fun, and I'll happily pay a feat for more fun!

[Marlowe]

Not to mention the satisfaction of having an ability coming from your characters flesh, blood, and bio-electrical impulses instead of from some item that anyone could have picked up. And which can be taken off of you.

However, if I ever finding myself standing between all that is tolerable and functional and a horde of unshapely things ripped from the back pages of some unholy supplement I do not think I'm ever going to say; "I wish I had taken Improved Critical".

[olentu]

Truedeath crystal lets you crit (and sneak attack) undead. Wouldn't take much to justify to the DM that a construct and ooze version should also exist. So for some extra cost you get your oomph back.

I don't know if the math on improved crit (average damage increase vs other options) works out or not, but I do know that there is the undeniable satisfaction of Critting and just straight up dismembering the ****ing thing over just 'killing' it. That's damn fun, and I'll happily pay a feat for more fun!

I believe there is a crystal that works on constructs in the magic item compendium. Demolition crystal as I recall.

[Togo]

Not to mention the satisfaction of having an ability coming from your characters flesh, blood, and bio-electrical impulses instead of from some item that anyone could have picked up. And which can be taken off of you.

However, if I ever finding myself standing between all that is tolerable and functional and a horde of unshapely things ripped from the back pages of some unholy supplement I do not think I'm ever going to say; "I wish I had taken Improved Critical".

It's part of a perfectly reasonable strategy though.
It's not too hard to get a very long crit range using this feat. Doing double damage every 3rd strike, or every other hit, adds up fast. You could use an item, and waste that first round of combat activating it, rather than something mechanically superior, or you could get it as a weapon enchancement, and miss out on other weapon enchancements that would be more useful for the strategy. As melee feats go, it's a pretty good one.

[Togo]

I've gotta argue in favor of Improved Critical. A Scabbard of Keen Edges is 16k, and a Keen weapon is 32k. Improved Critical is available at level 8, at which point the character has 27k.

I don't know about your games, but the ones I'm in always end long before level 15+, at which point yeah, Scabbards of Keen Edges for everyone.


Or forget the scabbard of keen edges, and get a scabbard of bless weapon instead, which stacks with imp crit, and makes your weapon good aligned, and is less than half the cost.

[Answerer]

I've gotta argue in favor of Improved Critical. A Scabbard of Keen Edges is 16k, and a Keen weapon is 32k. Improved Critical is available at level 8, at which point the character has 27k.
If crit-fishing were an effective strategy that worked well, you'd have a point.

Unfortunately, it's not. Building around criticals is a really bad idea in 3.x unless you've got Disciple of Dispater and/or Lightning Maces going on. You simply cannot get enough boosts to threat range to make criticals something that happen often enough to be worth investing heavily in.

[navar100]

If crit-fishing were an effective strategy that worked well, you'd have a point.

Unfortunately, it's not. Building around criticals is a really bad idea in 3.x unless you've got Disciple of Dispater and/or Lightning Maces going on. You simply cannot get enough boosts to threat range to make criticals something that happen often enough to be worth investing heavily in.

What do you want, a critical hit every swing? While any warrior would like that, it's enough for some people to get a critical hit "sometimes". When an undead or construct comes along, gosh darn. If they appeared a lot before Improved Critical was taken, an observant player would realize it's not a wise choice for that particular campaign and not take it in the first place. The DM should advise against it. If an undead or construct just appeared occasionally but after the feat was taken suddenly it's an undead/construct apocalypse, the DM is being a jerk. (If the apocalypse was actually Honest True the whole campaign plot point intent from game session 1, then the DM should step in and advise against it. That would not be DM jerkdom.)

It's a varying mileage issue. The feat is not so awesome everyone takes it all the time without fail if you don't you Suck. The feat is also not always terrible it hurts your character you Suck for taking it so that no one ever takes the feat. Here's to hoping in 5E all feats are awesome. For 3E, it's fine for a feat to be good enough for some people even if others wouldn't take it.

[Togo]

I've seen it work well.