I wanna be a Giant! Templates, anyone?

[Morph Bark]

Is there a LA+1 template that changes your type to Giant? Or an LA+2 or LA+3 template that changes your type to Construct and increases your size?

[Frog Dragon]

Half-Ogre, dragon magazine 313. I don't know of any others.

[hamishspence]

Actually the half-ogre template doesn't change a creature's type. It does, however, gain the following:

"Giant Blood (Ex): For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered a giant in addition to the base creature's type and subtype. Half-ogres can use magic items with racially specific powers as giants."

[Larkas]

Actually the half-ogre template doesn't change a creature's type. It does, however, gain the following:

"Giant Blood (Ex): For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered a giant in addition to the base creature's type and subtype. Half-ogres can use magic items with racially specific powers as giants."

Indeed. Unfortunately, you won't be immune to Charm Person and the like, if that's what you were going for.

[hamishspence]

That said, the half-troll template in Fiend Folio, does change the Creature's type. Interestingly it seems to ignore Savage Species's "type pyramid" - despite the example creature (a bearded devil) being an Outsider, its type has been changed to Giant.

[Curmudgeon]

That said, the half-troll template in Fiend Folio, does change the Creature's type. Interestingly it seems to ignore Savage Species's "type pyramid" - despite the example creature (a bearded devil) being an Outsider, its type has been changed to Giant.
Everything ignores the type pyramid, as far as I know. That came out shortly before 3.5, and the concept wasn't included in the updated core rules or any 3.5 supplements. It seems that even in the few books that came out between Savage Species and the release of 3.5 they thought that the type pyramid was a bad idea. Anyway, once you get to 3.5 rules and the Primary Sources Errata Rule that type pyramid is void; it's overridden by the new core rules.
The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

Anyway, if you're willing to jump through some fairly substantial hoops you can get Giant type through a spell and a pair of templates.

Start with any Humanoid race of size Medium.
Get Enlarge Person cast on the character.
Apply Dustform and Incarnate Construct templates. Incarnate Construct sets the creature type to Giant if they were Large at the time of application.
When Enlarge Person ends you've got a Giant type character of Medium size.

[hamishspence]

It doesn't actually make any references to it.

There's a general rule that when a type-changing template is applied, it actually changes the creature's type. Savage Species gave specific examples of cases where it doesn't. Specific overrides general.

Still, the fact that other books seem to ignore it- even 3.0 books that came out after Savage Species- does imply that it was a one-off idea, that was dropped.

At no point in this 3.5 thread discussing the type pyramid
Type Pyramid thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19543302/Savage_Species_Type_Pyramid?post_id=332114950#3321 14950) does anyone say that 3.5 MM has "made it obsolete", I notice.

[enderlord99]

Hamishspence out-logics even Curmudgeon!

All hail Hamishspence!

(Yes, you can sig that.)

[Curmudgeon]

At no point in this 3.5 thread discussing the type pyramid
Type Pyramid thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19543302/Savage_Species_Type_Pyramid?post_id=332114950#3321 14950) does anyone say that 3.5 MM has "made it obsolete", I notice.
You might want to note that purported "3.5 thread" is actually under the "D&D Previous Editions" section of the Wizards community forums, and as such is a perfectly fine rules discussion in the context of D&D 3.0. The only reference to 3.5 there is an indirect one, where a page citation is from the 3.5 Monster Manual Glossary. (3.0 books weren't particularly good about providing term definitions.) Anyway, the lack of a discussion of a rules issue in an isolated context says nothing about that issue. Look: right now I'm not going to make any point about <insert related issue here>. Does that tell you whether <related issue> has legal merit? :smallconfused:

But if you really want to get to why the type pyramid from Savage Species isn't allowed to change the template rules, here's the main reason:

Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. When Monster Manual says a template changes a creature's type, it is stipulated to be correct and that template does indeed change the creature's type; a rule in Savage Species which disagrees with that primary source is incorrect. Only an official errata file can overrule a primary source.

There's also another problem with Savage Species: it's pre-3.5 material. Even where a D&D 3.x supplement which existed before 3.5 isn't in disagreement with a primary source it's still subject to adjustment (at each individual DM's discretion) when Wizards of the Coast didn't produce a 3.5 update. From page 4 of Dungeon Master's Guide:

This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.


Hamishspence out-logics even Curmudgeon! Do you want to reconsider that statement? :smallamused:

[Spuddles]

Half Giant, from XPH, is a giant.

[Venusaur]

Half Giant, from XPH, is a giant.

It is also on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants).

[Chronos]

Curmudgeon, you seem to be in the habit of quoting a rule that says that 3.0 material can be used with only minor revisions, to support an argument that 3.0 material can't be used. Don't you think that if that's what they meant, they would have said so?

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, you seem to be in the habit of quoting a rule that says that 3.0 material can be used with only minor revisions, to support an argument that 3.0 material can't be used. Don't you think that if that's what they meant, they would have said so?
To the contrary, it means exactly what it says: it can be used (except, of course, parts that disagree with the primary sources), but how it's used is up to each DM. Those minor adjustments mean that actual 3.5 games using older splatbooks will vary somewhat depending who's running each session. I'm just cautioning people against that experience fitting their expectations. With 3.5 material you can read the books and know how things work. With 3.0 content you won't know until you ask your individual DM. :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

When Monster Manual says a template changes a creature's type, it is stipulated to be correct and that template does indeed change the creature's type; a rule in Savage Species which disagrees with that primary source is incorrect. Only an official errata file can overrule a primary source.

So you're arguing that "primary sources overrule secondary sources" is a rule that overrides "specific overrides general"?


You might want to note that purported "3.5 thread" is actually under the "D&D Previous Editions" section of the Wizards community forums, and as such is a perfectly fine rules discussion in the context of D&D 3.0. The only reference to 3.5 there is an indirect one, where a page citation is from the 3.5 Monster Manual Glossary.

I was going by the date (2008) and the references to 3.5 articles like Creatures That Cannot Be. "Previous Editions" refers to editions before 4E in this context as far as I can tell.

[Morph Bark]

Whelp, I guess there exist no such templates as the ones I am looking for then. Ah well, thanks anyway.

[Nanoblack]

Hamishspence out-logics even Curmudgeon!




Do you want to reconsider that statement? :smallamused:

It's a clash of the Titans! Thankfully, the OP has been answered already so collateral damage is at a minimum. Now...
http://i46.tinypic.com/ehixp2.png

[Lonely Tylenol]

Whelp, I guess there exist no such templates as the ones I am looking for then. Ah well, thanks anyway.

This thread is now about the twenty pages of arguments unrelated to this request that will follow from it. :smallamused:

Sorry.

To answer your question, the Half-Giant race from XPH (and the SRD) is the only LA+1 way to be of the Giant type. The Master Template List (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869266/Master_Template_List) suggests that the only other way is to be a Half-Troll (LA+4) or a large-sized Incarnate Construct (LA -2), which you're already aware of. Dustform (LA+2) changes your type to Construct (which would allow Incarnate Construct to change your type to Giant if you were somehow large), but does not increase your base size. If you had a permanent Enlarge Person cast on yourself as a humanoid, you'd be a Large construct, and then a Large giant (permanently).

Basically, Curmudgeon's suggestion.

[Morph Bark]

Considering the fluff behind Dustform Creature and the duration of Enlarge Person, I don't think that'll go. Applying Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur and then Dustform Creature + Incarnate Construct could do it though, I suppose.

I need it primarily for want of applying Primordial Giant.

[Tytalus]

To the contrary, it means exactly what it says: it can be used (except, of course, parts that disagree with the primary sources), but how it's used is up to each DM.

That is already an interpretation. The minor adjustments may very well just refer to the necessary adjustments required due to changes to skills, DR, etc. (note that those changes are not "up to each DM", but spelled out rather clearly). IMHO, a much more sensible and useful interpretation than yours - which is already covered by rule 0 anyway.

[Fyermind]

Half Ogre from races of destiny, it is a race, not a template, but it is a large giant, +2 LA

If you can convince your DM to let you use the Savage species version it only had a +1 LA

[Lonely Tylenol]

Considering the fluff behind Dustform Creature and the duration of Enlarge Person, I don't think that'll go. Applying Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur and then Dustform Creature + Incarnate Construct could do it though, I suppose.

I need it primarily for want of applying Primordial Giant.

Yeah, which is why I had suggested springing for Permanency. :smallwink:

I would go with "and" for Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur, if the fluff isn't prohibitive (since the two combined equal to the same LA as one of them, and combining them gives an actual Giant-like strength).

[Morph Bark]

Yeah, which is why I had suggested springing for Permanency. :smallwink:

Wouldn't the magic immediately go away as soon as you stop qualifying for it (aka, have your type changed)?


I would go with "and" for Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur, if the fluff isn't prohibitive (since the two combined equal to the same LA as one of them, and combining them gives an actual Giant-like strength).

I always do this with Incarnate Construct Warforged Scouts at least. :smalltongue: