(PF) Mercenary Natural Leader?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

background concept I had: ex-soldier, natural leader of men, perhaps was in command of a squad or other small unit, now adventures. Is a bit jaded, because most everyone he leads to battle dies, is now a mercenary scoundrel, etc, etc. I guess... sort of a Mal Reynolds from Firefly, if i had to put a character to the idea.

How would you build such a character?

My initial reaction is to build such a character as a bard... problem with bard is that it isn't martial enough, at least in my mind. The Inspire Courage mechanism is right on though, as well as the skill set which suggests 'scoundrel'.

I know someone will mention Arcane Duelist as an archetype. Let me just say now, that i have a small problem with it: To cast any spells, you must have your arcane bonded weapon in hand. IN social situations, that sucks. Im not saying i can't be convinced, just hoping something else is out there.

Thanks in advance!

[CTrees]

I dont believe you're correct about HAVING to have your arcane bonded item in hand in order to cast. You CAN cast with it in hand, but from the Arcane Duelist and Wizard entries, I havent seen anything requiring it...

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

oh. somehow i read the "may" as a "must" use his weapon for somatic components...

[Tokuhara]

Even if you had to, holding the handle while it's in your sheath should suffice.

I suggest Magus personally. They can choose an Arcana that gives them Bard spells. And they're just powerful

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

How is Magus an inspiring natural-born leader? they have absolutely no mechanism for it, and CHA is a prime dump stat for them, so if they were in any way inspiring before, they aren't now.

So... how did you come up with Magus as an answer for this?

[Acanous]

Dang. Your description screams Marshal, but I assume it's not allowed in your PF game. I suppose Cavalier could work.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Dang. Your description screams Marshal, but I assume it's not allowed in your PF game. I suppose Cavalier could work.

Ya, I thought of Marshal too, but yes, its PF pure. I felt sad while pondering that last night. I thought of Cavalier as well, but I dislike the primary "buff" they have: teamwork feats.

This is why I feel bard fits the description, but lacks the martial punch I'm looking for...

[BlueEyes]

Cavalier or Fighter (Tactician).

[CTrees]

How about Inquisitor? You've got the martial flair, solo tactics for more "canny combatant" feel, and some buffs. You also get a domain, and there are several with nice leader-y abilities (Nobility, Glory and Leadership spring immediately to mind).

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

How about Inquisitor? You've got the martial flair, solo tactics for more "canny combatant" feel, and some buffs. You also get a domain, and there are several with nice leader-y abilities (Nobility, Glory and Leadership spring immediately to mind).

I am not terribly interested in playing an Inquisitor for this character... their solo tactics give a "lone wolf" sort of vibe. However ,I will take a look at those domains you mentioned, see if it changes it mind.

[grarrrg]

My initial reaction is to build such a character as a bard... problem with bard is that it isn't martial enough, at least in my mind. The Inspire Courage mechanism is right on though, as well as the skill set which suggests 'scoundrel'.


I thought of Cavalier as well, but I dislike the primary "buff" they have: teamwork feats.

This is why I feel bard fits the description, but lacks the martial punch I'm looking for...

DO ALL THE THINGS!!

Seriously.
Battle Herald. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/battle-herald)
It's a Cavalier/Bard hybrid class.
All the Inspire-ness, Full Bab, no magic.
You only need to take 1 level of Bard to qualify (although you may want to take more due to Skill prerequisites).
[/thread]

[Righteous Doggy]

While your talking about prcs, Chevalier and Hellknight both come off as cool leader guys to me. You could be a paladin too couldn't you? Especially if you weren't super restricted to be the lawful stupid/stupid good sort.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

grarrg, once again we are on the same track... I've spent the last 2 hours looking at Battle Herald Threads over at Paizo.

I really dig the fluff, I'm just trying to get a firm grasp of its mechanics: i.e. Bard and Battle Herald levels stack for Inspire Courage, but Battle Herald ALSO gets Inspiring Commands.
Basically, I'm trying to look at all of the Inspiring Command options, and see how those mesh with Inspire Courage, and when I should use each. (since it appears I can't use both at the same time until level 10 of Battle Herald, if I'm reading this right.)

I like the fluff though, definitely.

[grarrrg]

Basically, I'm trying to look at all of the Inspiring Command options, and see how those mesh with Inspire Courage, and when I should use each. (since it appears I can't use both at the same time until level 10 of Battle Herald, if I'm reading this right.)

Correct

The battle herald cannot maintain an inspiring command and a bardic performance at the same time (this does not preclude abilities such as persistent command or the Lingering Performance feat, which continue an inspiring command or bardic performance after the battle herald stops maintaining it).
Until level 10 when

a battle herald can have more than one command ability in effect at one time. Each must be begun separately and requires a separate maintenance cost. The battle herald can also maintain one bardic performance in addition to her inspiring commands, though each must be begun separately and each requires its own maintenance cost.

So yeah, DEFINITELY take Lingering Performance, cause you won't get any other "extenders" until Herald 8 (character 13) at the earliest.


As an alternative to Bard, you could also qualify with Sensei Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sensei) (VERY limited rounds, only level+Wis, but you only really need 1 level anyway, so no big loss)
or Evangelist Cleric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/evangelist).
I vote for the Cleric option, because you can cherry pick a Domain bonus.
Travel +10ft. movement, Protection +1 All Saves, Spellkiller Inquisition Disruptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/disruptive-combat---final) Feat. There are other decent choices, but these 3 are probably the best.


You need Minimum 5 levels to qualify for Battle Herald, I vote for Cavalier 4/(inspire) 1, this gives you Expert Trainer and qualifies you for the Horse Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/horse-master-combat) feat.
Also, Battle Herald levels stack with Cavalier for purposes of Tactician uses, and the Banner ability, so if considering Archetypes, you may want to keep these, regardless of the above you NEED to keep the "Challenge" ability.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the one thing that has always prevented me from actually playing cavalier, as opposed to crafting builds for NPC's and whatnot, is the teamwork feats. They are very appropriate fluffwise, but they annoy me. It adds extra bookkeeping to an already fiddly bits class, which is compounded by Battle Herald.

would a straight bard be better as a commander/buffer via spells and whatnot? I very much suspect that is a yes.

In which case, i may just stay some kind of Bard.

[grarrrg]

the one thing that has always prevented me from actually playing cavalier, as opposed to crafting builds for NPC's and whatnot, is the teamwork feats. They are very appropriate fluffwise, but they annoy me. It adds extra bookkeeping to an already fiddly bits class, which is compounded by Battle Herald.

Gendarme (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/gendarme) Cavalier Archetype.
Trades away "Teamwork feats" and "Tactician", and ONLY the Teamwork feats and Tactician, for straight up 'normal' bonus feats.


Samurai (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai) also gets Challenge without any bonus feat problems.

[Bhaakon]

I don't see it mentioned here, but I think the freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter) archetype for the ranger fits your character concept reasonably well. The fast swimming ability might be a little off (the archetype is fluffed as a pirate), but freebooter's bane and bond match the natural leader idea, and you get plenty of martial prowess without the cavalier's "fiddly bits."

[deuxhero]

You'll likely have issues with a Paladin's code so that's out and Anti-Paladin is out in most campaigns by default.

Nothing about your background strictly NEEDS you to be a martial type, Sorcerers are great leaders, but if you want to be a martial type...

Student of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/student-of-war) doesn't really have much to inspire people to follow him with, but he is damn fine at leading them. Lone Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) has abilities that mesh well and gets one of the requirements as a bonus feat.

[Tokuhara]

I second Battle Herald like so:

Race: Human
Class: Bard 1/Gendarme Cavalier 4/Battle Herald 10/Gendarme Cavalier 5

[deuxhero]

You mean Gendarme Cavalier 4/Bard 1/Battle Herald 10/Gendarme Cavalier 5. 2 extra HP at no cost (Unless you need to qualify for a feat at level 1).

[grarrrg]

You mean Gendarme Cavalier 4/Bard 1/Battle Herald 10/Gendarme Cavalier 5. 2 extra HP at no cost (Unless you need to qualify for a feat at level 1).

Meh, tomato/tomato (that loses something in text-version...)

[deuxhero]

Actually, what feats would that build need? No feats are required for PRC entry.

5 is pretty much set as Horse Master, you need Lingering Preformance, 3 is the best slot so far.


Order is also interesting for that build.

Order of the White Rose is terrible fluff wise, but mechanically it combos great with the Enforcer feat if you have charisma and Intimidate ranks. You don't lose anything of value (Blow a standard action to get +1, +2 at level 16, attack rolls against intelligent that shares a language. It blows even as straight cavailier) as an Order of the Blue Rose if you break your annoying edicts repeatedly and grossly.

Order of the Lion is best fluff wise with the ability to give a rousing speech.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I don't see it mentioned here, but I think the freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter) archetype for the ranger fits your character concept reasonably well. The fast swimming ability might be a little off (the archetype is fluffed as a pirate), but freebooter's bane and bond match the natural leader idea, and you get plenty of martial prowess without the cavalier's "fiddly bits."

Yes. I do like the Freebooter Ranger, but I'm not sure how to capitalize on the Freebooter's bane. it seems TWF and/or TWF with a shield would be good. However, when I express interest in it, and ask for advice on the forums, I never get a response besides "its unoptimized".

[Bhaakon]

Yes. I do like the Freebooter Ranger, but I'm not sure how to capitalize on the Freebooter's bane. it seems TWF and/or TWF with a shield would be good. However, when I express interest in it, and ask for advice on the forums, I never get a response besides "its unoptimized".


It doesn't really provide a big enough damage bonus to make TWF worthwhile; you're likely giving up more in bonus two-handed weapon power attack than you'd get from the offhand weapon, and, of course, TWF mean you have to enchant two weapons, an expensive proposition.

Personally, I'd just go with the classic switch hitter build (https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfNWM0cTliaGdw&pli=1) in this case. The small bonus to damage is a nice benefit to your ranged attacks, which are always hurting for bonus damage, and the bonus to hit will negate most of the power attack penalty. It's never going to be an encounter-ender, but it's nice.

The other posters are right in that it's not a high-op choice, at least from the perspective of making your character as personally deadly as possible. Where it's really going to help you is in the fact that all the characters get it, and it's typeless bonus. If you have a group of weapon-focused characters, giving everyone a small bonus adds up quickly, particularly if it stacks with a bard's performance or any magical buffs.

If the rest of the group is a bunch of casters, though, it's not nearly as useful.

[Tokuhara]

Order of the Dragon is my preferred order for this. Much better "quarterback" order