4E Avengers

[Tegu8788]

So after watching the Avengers movie, I was mulling things around in my head, and eventually I got to the point were I was trying to make classes for them. So are easy, Hawkeye-Ranger, Captain America-Warlord, but others a bit tricker. Iron Man could be a Sorcadin, Black Widow maybe a monk, and Hulk and Thor both have Warden properties to me, but need something else. And then there's Loki.

Does anyone else have any ideas how you'd build the Avengers in 4E? Does anyone have a mid twisted like mine is?

[theNater]

Here's the way I see 'em:

Captain America: Warlord. He's picked up a little bit of ability to mark. He throws his shield with some of the ranged powers from whichever Martial Power book has the ranged warlord.

Hawkeye: Seeker; heavily reflavored. All of those specialty arrows he's got provide the Seeker's various special effects. On the flipside, he doesn't seem to have the outrageous rate of fire that is typical to Rangers.

Iron Man: Sorcerer. All the giant explosions, don't you know. I don't think he's got Paladin, I suspect he's just got an epic destiy effect along the lines of "once per day, when you die, you come back immediately with full health".

Black Widow: Rogue. Fast, brutal melee combat. Monk is also tempting, but her interrogation techniques rely heavily on Bluff, which isn't a class skill for Monks. She also doesn't hesitate to pull out a ranged weapon, which Rogue powers generally can use and Monk powers generally can't.

Hulk: Barbarian. Dude's all over the battlefield, smashing everything into little bits. He's virtually indestrucable due to a massive Con score and an inexhausatable supply of temporary hit points.

Thor: Paladin. He's got a feat(possibly homebrewed) that lets him replace radiant damage with lightning damage. His ability to throw the hammer and call it back to himself are properties of the hammer, rather than class powers.

[Tegu8788]

I thought of the paladin for the armor on Stark, as well as some of his mindset, acting to defend against his own weapons in the first film, and letting him take the heavy hits that he does, while using the sorcerer for the firepower and flight. I like the rest though, if there was some way to get Thor reliable flight and a ranged lightning power I could see Paladin with throwing hammer. He is divine after all.

[VeliciaL]

It's arguable that the flight is also a property of the hammer, since he always swings it around to fly. Probably overpowered for a 4E hammer, but this -is- Mjolnir we're talking about here.

[Kurald Galain]

Mythologically, at least, Thor flies by throwing his hammer and simply not releasing it. I'm pretty sure the Avengers Thor uses the same trick.

[Tegu8788]

I believe he does, though hovering and changing course mid air require some other control mechanism. It is a magic hammer after all, and considered he'd be fighting with a single one handed hammer it would make sense to me to let it be a bit overpowered.

Any thoughts on our villian? He managed some incredible Bluffs with his illusions, he fought with daggers and used a spear as an implement, certainly had shapeshifting armor, had some degree of invulnerablity (charging bullets, being the one thing the Hulk didn't break), and considering he opened a portal I'd say he's ritual caster to boot. And with few exceptions he only fought one hero at a time, so making him out as a PC should be possible.

[wayfare]

I believe he does, though hovering and changing course mid air require some other control mechanism. It is a magic hammer after all, and considered he'd be fighting with a single one handed hammer it would make sense to me to let it be a bit overpowered.

Any thoughts on our villian? He managed some incredible Bluffs with his illusions, he fought with daggers and used a spear as an implement, certainly had shapeshifting armor, had some degree of invulnerablity (charging bullets, being the one thing the Hulk didn't break), and considering he opened a portal I'd say he's ritual caster to boot. And with few exceptions he only fought one hero at a time, so making him out as a PC should be possible.

In Thor, Loki is some kind warlock (maybe a fey warlock) who uses fey and infenal powers. In the second film he is more hands on, making him seem a lot more like a D&D essentials melee warlock with a fey background and feat that allows him to swap out elemental damage for force damage.

[Excession]

I think Iron Man is a blaster Wizard rather than a Sorcerer. All his attacks, and his AC, are based on his Int. Sure, it's done by building a suit rather than casting spells, but it works. His area and multi-target attacks (shoulder guns, missile swarms, sweeping lasers) make him better at minion sweeping than the strikers. And repulsor beams are so totally magic missile.

[The Troubadour]

Mythologically, at least, Thor flies by throwing his hammer and simply not releasing it.

Mythologically, Thor didn't fly on his own power, he flew by riding a chariot driven by his magical goats. :-)

On-topic: couldn't Thor be a Sorcerer/Thaneborn Barbarian? His fighting style is very aggressive and he's got a good mix of melee and ranged attacks.

[Kurald Galain]

Mythologically, Thor didn't fly on his own power, he flew by riding a chariot driven by his magical goats. :-)

Also true. So that makes him a hybrid Shaman | Beastmaster Ranger, no? :smalltongue:

[Teucros]

It seems to me that Hawkeyecould be at least part artificer-no other class fits with his trick arrows that well, and Iron Man is definitely a Wizard/Artificer hybrid Cap is a Warlord, Widow a Rogue...Hulk could be a Barbarian but let us consider the Battlerager too. And since you've mentioned Loki...illusionist or Feylock are good options, but for the MU's ultimate trickster, who also dabbles in melee battle, Bard is the way to go. Probably multiclassed a lot.

[VeliciaL]

I think Iron Man is a blaster Wizard rather than a Sorcerer. All his attacks, and his AC, are based on his Int. Sure, it's done by building a suit rather than casting spells, but it works. His area and multi-target attacks (shoulder guns, missile swarms, sweeping lasers) make him better at minion sweeping than the strikers. And repulsor beams are so totally magic missile.

I was just thinking this myself. Stark may be charismatic, but his powers are definitely more based on his intellect. Good point about being better at area affects too.

ADDENDUM: Wizard/Artificer, with a crafted suit of magical plate armor that requires a specific homebrew proficiency feat (that to date onle he and his army buddy - who's name escapes me - have), gives a strength bonus, and is fluffed to be the source of all his powers.

RETURN OF ADDENDUM: Coincidentally, this also answers the question of why he can only use certain powers once per encounter/day. Ammo :P And coming up with custom names for his powers strikes me as a lot of fun.

[Urpriest]

Obviously they're all Avengers.

Actually, that could sort of work...

Thor: Dwarven Avenger with Dwarven Throwers enchantment, and/or other means of getting a decent throwing hammer.
Hawkeye: Hybrid Avenger | Seeker, with the feat that lets RBAs benefit from the Oath.
Iron Man: Avenger | Artificer
Captain America: Avenger with a Farbond Spellblade Spiked Shield, and/or other means of getting a decent throwing shield.
Black Widow: Low level Avenger with several instances of Skill Training
Hulk: Avenger | Monk

[wayfare]

Actually, now that I think about it, couldn't loki and thor both have a bit of swordmage in them?

[VeliciaL]

Actually, now that I think about it, couldn't loki and thor both have a bit of swordmage in them?

I dunno, swordmage is based on Int, and I don't see Thor as an especially int-based character. If it works though...

[charcoalninja]

I always did Thor as a cleric. He's a melee centric cleric using thunder flavoured attacks rather than radient and uses his cleric heals on himself to last next to forever.

His chariot of goats is literally Cloud Chariot, lvl 24ish utility power in the PHB.
He wears medium armour and suchness as well so it works nicely.

[Tegu8788]

More I think about it, the more I see some support that Thor could be a fighter that MCs wizard. Heavy armor and mostly melee, but a couple lightning spells and flight. That big lightning bolt certainly was quite the minion popper. The thaneborn sorcerer sounds good though too. I'd say his thousands of years of combat would make him very wise, if not very intelligent.

Perhaps a warlock|swordmage, or bard/warlock/swordmage? I'd think of Loki as the giver of a fey pact, but I see the value for his high int and cha. Maybe Hexblade, he does have some pretty useful summons. He did manage to go toe to toe with Thor for a bit, and was able to trade blasts with Iron Man.

Iron Man did act like a controller, rounding up the aliens as they came through the portal. His shoulder missiles certainly was an AoE spell. War Machine, while not in the game, I'd say he would be more projectile and less spell based. A Plate controller is a challenge to make.

Thinking about how Hawkeye was the calling out instructions and commanding others to attack, woUld maybe a bow warlord fit in somewhere to his build? He command was a clear as "Hulk. SMASH!" but he was certainly making the team more effective.

The Black Widow could be a rogue|monk. She certainly had rogue skills, cha, and weapons options, but she was also incredibly mobile, and used her body as a weapon. I can't think of how else to have her leg around neck spin takedown or how quickly she goes from one target to another other than monk powers. Maybe heavy MC would work, but I don't know. Linguist would be a good feat.

Berserker defender/striker could be Hulkish, but I do like the brawler with some barbarian thrown in. Bare hand and bare chest, grab and, well, smash. Str and con focused with lots of THPs. He's incredibly easy to hit, it just doesn't phase him. Any utility to let him jump around the place?

Is there any way to boost the damage of the shield, or the number of people of people you can hit with it in a round? I figure a hand crossbow would make a servicable pistol. There wouldn't happen to be a giant shuriken would there? His stats are hard to match up. His AC is hard to figure, he looks like cloth, and the one energy blast he doesn't deflect hits him pretty hard. The entirety of his AC is in his shield.

[Raimun]

While 4e is a fine system on it's own, I don't think 4e characters could really pull of the stuff the Avengers are capable of. They don't really have the power and the flexibility required. Edit:Not to mention, durability!

4e is a great system presicely because the characters are more close to traditional fantasy hero power level. Ie. the party and its members can't solve all problems with super powers. Or become truly invulnerable. Or fly all day long. Or gain Str of 50-100+. Or transform to Godzilla. Or build an Ironman-grade armor. Or create a mountain. Or obliterate a city with one attack.

If you want superheroes (there's nothing wrong with it), turn to 3.5.

[VeliciaL]

That's part of the fun though. The system doesn't fit very well at all, so it takes some mental gymnastics to get it right.

I'm not completely convinced 3.5 is the best system for that either, frankly, but I don't have a huge amount of experience with it.

[Raimun]

All of the examples I listed ("Or...") are possible for the most insane of 3.5 characters.

[Tegu8788]

That's part of the fun though. The system doesn't fit very well at all, so it takes some mental gymnastics to get it right.

And that's what I'm looking for. Creative ways to make something, and more ways to think about how a mechanical power can be reinterpreted for cool fluff. Oh course it won't be a perfect fit, but perfection isn't the point. Fun is.

[Mando Knight]

I always did Thor as a cleric. He's a melee centric cleric using thunder flavoured attacks rather than radient and uses his cleric heals on himself to last next to forever.

His chariot of goats is literally Cloud Chariot, lvl 24ish utility power in the PHB.
He wears medium armour and suchness as well so it works nicely.

There is no medium armor in 4e unless there's something in MME that I'm unaware of.

However, given how he can turn his armor on and off and it doesn't seem to restrict his movement too much (and how it looks a bit like scales), the alternate Battle Cleric Lore feature from Dragon (he's not much of a healer, either!) fits (Scale proficiency and divine shielding... then use Summoned Armor enchantment to get the on/off switch).

Thinking about how Hawkeye was the calling out instructions and commanding others to attack, woUld maybe a bow warlord fit in somewhere to his build? He command was a clear as "Hulk. SMASH!" but he was certainly making the team more effective.
That was Captain America calling out the shots, not Hawkeye. Hawkeye did function as eyes-up-high, but as a scout rather than as a commander.

[androkguz]

I like this notions:
Captain America - Inspiring Warlord.
Ironman - Artificer|Wizard(warmage?). He is an obvious Int user, but lets also not forget he is also a narcissist. Perfect Wizard fit.
Hulk - Barbarian. I just cant believe that some people don't see him just like that. He is rage given flesh.
Thor - Lawful Good fighter|warpriest (storm domain). Yeah, wisdom user I think, plus if he is not using divine power, then who the hell is?
Black Widow - Rogue and the idea of some monk in her is pretty cool. She is clearly a Cha/Dex user
Hawkeye - Yes, Seeker. Very reflavored.

As for those that have not yet appeared
Antman - ... I got nothing. He is Int and posibly Str user. Maybe a very very reflavored druid?
Wasp - A pixie warlock or sorcerer I think.
Black Panthern - Assassin? Rogue? Maybe Avenger

[Tegu8788]

Other avengers, that's ambitious. I agree with what has been said, but I had a few thoughts. Iron man seems to have some marking ability, being able to get the various aliens to chase him. Whether that's his power, or Hawkeye uses something like misdirected mark, I don't know. As for the Hulk, is there any barbarian built that let's you use improvised weapons or bare hands effectively? The only things I remember him wielding was a plate of the behemoth, and Loki

Another question, I think we all have been assuming human as the race, but considering the existing refluffing why not open that up? Tony could be a Warforged, Thor might be a Deva, the Widow a Shade?

[androkguz]

Another question, I think we all have been assuming human as the race, but considering the existing refluffing why not open that up? Tony could be a Warforged, Thor might be a Deva, the Widow a Shade?

Hulk Goliath? Hawkeye elf? Captain America... well, human it is.

[The Troubadour]

Thor - Lawful Good fighter|warpriest (storm domain). Yeah, wisdom user I think, plus if he is not using divine power, then who the hell is?

Wisdom is exactly what Thor lacked, as per his movie. :-) I'd say Barbarian|Sorcerer, or better yet, STR-Cleric (or perhaps Runepriest)|Sorcerer.

The Hulk could probably be a Minotaur, I'd say. And while I don't have a problem with D&D Hulk using a greataxe or something, is there a way to give him a good unarmed strike? A Brawler Fighte or Monk multiclass feat, perhaps?

[Tegu8788]

Wisdom is exactly what Thor lacked, as per his movie.

Everybody fails a roll know and again, no matter how high your modifier. And Thor got some critical misses in all of his appearances when it comes to mental checks.