Why go Ranger for Master of Many Forms?

[Azernak0]

I am playing a Master of Many Forms in an upcoming campaign. I wanted to play a character that could shift forms but a flat Druid would be waaaayyyy too powerful for this group. I decided to go with Wildshape Ranger because I am always hearing that Rangers are better for MoMF but I simply cannot see how.

Wildshape Ranger 5/ MoMF X gives two more BAB and grants Endurance which is a prerequisite feat for MoMF. I think because Rangers give Endurance for free people assume that it is superior to going Druid.

Druids get much better alternate class features. Using the unnamed Druid Variant from the SRD and the Druidic Avenger from the SRD, a Druid gets Wisdom to AC + Monk AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Rage, Track, Favored Enemy, and a couple of other useful bonuses for giving up armor proficiency (which they won't use anyway), Animal Companion (which would only be based on a level 5 Druid anyway), and they can cast a couple spells up to 3rd level.

With Rage, Druids could also get Whirling Frenzy as it is not a class variant but a class feature variant. Rage is a class feature for a Druidic Avenger, so it is legal (at least IMO). If nothing else, Druids basically turn themselves into Rangers by giving up stuff that they don't want anyway because they are going into MoMF, get 3rd level spells, and get bigger bonuses than Rangers.

Why exactly is Ranger the preferred option for getting into MoMF? Is one feat and two BAB worth not getting all those other bonuses, not to mention 3rd level spells?

[docnessuno]

Druid
The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.
Gain:
Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).
Lose:
Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

Druidic avenger is still viable (and i would consider Spontaneous Rejuvenation too), but remeber you can use more ACF on ranger too, some nice picks are:

Arcane Hunter
Champion of the Wild / Spell-less Ranger
Trap Expert / Urban Tracker

On a character relying on infiltration and melee (roles well suited for a MoMF) more skill points, 2 more BAB and 1/2 more feats are golden.

[Urpriest]

Also, if you're a Druid you might as well stay a Druid. Rangers have incentive to take MoMF, Druids don't.

[Azernak0]

Whoops. I knew that feature lost Wildshape. I have no idea why I included it.
It still seems like Druids are better at the "I turn into stuff and hit stuff" than Rangers. It makes me sad :smallfrown:


Also, if you're a Druid you might as well stay a Druid. Rangers have incentive to take MoMF, Druids don't.

True, but you have to decide at the start to be a Wildshape Ranger which meant you were planning from the start. I am not saying Ranger into MoMF is bad. I am also not saying that a Druid 20 is not 100 times more powerful than a Druid 10 / MoMF 10 or any other variation. But If you are going to go MoMF, I just see the Druid being so much better.

I have seen many threads that when a person suggests MoMF for a druid, they say a couple of different things.

1. "Druid is better than Druid/MoMF." Totally true.
2. "Planar Shepherd is better." Very true.
3. "If you want to go MoMF, do a Ranger instead." This is something I don't understand. Is getting Endurance for free so important?

[Yorrin]

I think UrPriest hit the nail on the head. Nobody thinks Ranger makes a better MoMF than a Druid- it's just that no Druid in his right mind would take it. It's a drop in power for him truth be told. But for a ranger it's a step up, and clearly better than a straight ranger for anything except skill-monkeying (and even that is debatable).

[gorfnab]

If you want more spells in a Ranger/ MoMF build you could go Mystic Ranger 10/ MoMF 10. You'll end up with 5th level Ranger spells (and Wizard spells with the feat Sword of the Arcane Order).

[FMArthur]

Out of all things I think it may actually be wizard spells that keeps the ranger from being completely outclassed by the druid. :smallconfused:

[hushblade]

MoMF doesn't advance your druid's casting, Its all about your wild shape, the extra BaB and free feat isn't much, but druid doesn't net you much more for a morphic character without added spell casting advancement.

[candycorn]

It still seems like Druids are better at the "I turn into stuff and hit stuff" than Rangers. It makes me sad :smallfrown:They're not. Ranger will have +2 to hit over a druid, 16 more skill points, another available feat (endurance for free).

The real culprit is druid class features. They need to have constant progression or they get marginalized quickly. A druid 5/MOMF 7? That animal companion may as well not be there. Spellcasting is so limited as to be a joke to level 12 enemies.

A ranger 5/MOMF 7? Will still have the use of skills that are progressed, and those extra BAB directly contribute to the primary thing the MoMF wants to do.


I am not saying Ranger into MoMF is bad. I am also not saying that a Druid 20 is not 100 times more powerful than a Druid 10 / MoMF 10 or any other variation. But If you are going to go MoMF, I just see the Druid being so much better.
That's like saying that if you're going to go into elementary school teaching, it's best to start as an ER Doctor. While the ER doctor may have a couple relevant skills in the event a child gets injured, I don't know of many that would give up $100,000+ per year for it.


I have seen many threads that when a person suggests MoMF for a druid, they say a couple of different things.

1. "Druid is better than Druid/MoMF." Totally true.Which brings the question: Why would a druid want to do this?

2. "Planar Shepherd is better." Very true.Which is irrelevant to the issue, but yes.

3. "If you want to go MoMF, do a Ranger instead." This is something I don't understand. Is getting Endurance for free so important?No, but it's nothing to sneeze at. It's the +2 BAB, armor flexibility, extra skills, AND endurance as a free feat that is "so important".

[Togo]

Druids get much better alternate class features. Using the unnamed Druid Variant from the SRD and the Druidic Avenger from the SRD, a Druid gets Wisdom to AC + Monk AC Bonus, Fast Movement, Rage, Track, Favored Enemy, and a couple of other useful bonuses for giving up armor proficiency (which they won't use anyway), Animal Companion (which would only be based on a level 5 Druid anyway), and they can cast a couple spells up to 3rd level.

Well, first off, as you later said, the Druid varients aren't available because they give up wildshape. So compare the two lists you end up with:

ranger
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy , fast movement
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Endurance
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Animal companion
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd favored enemy, wildshape 1/day

Druid
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Nature sense, rage/1day, fast movement
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 Woodland stride
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Trackless step
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Resist nature’s lure
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Wild shape (1/day)

So ranger gets two favoured enemies, and two useful feats, track and endurance. Track is useful because so many forms get scent, and because it's the prerequisite for Nature's Warrior, a popular p-class once you've run out of MoMF levels. Enurance you need anyway, so it's a bonus feat, and MoMFs are always short on feats. You also get +2 BAB, and 16 more skill points, and the ability to wear metallic armour.

Druid gets you rage, a bonus to survival and k:knowledge checks, a bonus to resist fey, the ability not to leave a trail and to move unhindered through undergrowth. They're decent abilities, but I can see why people might prefer bonuses to hit and damage, and more skills.

Which leaves only spells. Druid 5 is better than ranger 5, but at the higher levels, neither is particularly good.

When I play ranger-> MoMFs I'm going for combat bonuses (particularly useful when your attacks per round goes into double figures), skill points for the invaluable rogue role a MoMFs can play, two extra feats, and the ability to spend a lot of time and effort on that one suit of wild armour, generally the single most expensive item the character owns, without worrying whether it's metal.

When I play druid -> MoMFs I'm going for will saves over reflex saves, woodland stride (a superb ability for huge flying creatures), and the ability to cast my own greater magic fang at low level rather than having to wear an amulet. Sure I'll have fun with spikes, entangle, barkskin, bull's strength, and sheilliegh, but they're hardly make or break for the character.

All in all, yeah, I'd say ranger is better. If you're playing at low level, or if you really want those buff spells, go for druid.

[Azernak0]

Ahhh, this is why I love these forums. Civil, intelligent discussion.

What I mean is giving up Animal Companion for Rage (and Possibly Whirling Frenzy) adds more damage overall than a +2 BAB. It equates to a +2 Attack and +1-3 damage. Adding Whirling Frenzy, you get an additional swing albeit at a -2 penalty for the rest of your attacks, if you go the "I'm like a Fighter but I'm a Cave Troll!" option. That BAB may help you all the time but that extra boost in Rage is more useful for an important fight, at least IMO. I will say that getting that 6 BAB for that extra swing is extremely useful but is it as useful as Spikes + Rage?

By using a greatclub (which isn't the greatest weapon ever sadly), the Druid can get a +2 Enhancement Bonus to attack and damage and either an unnamed or Enhancement bonus to damage (depending on how you read it) equal to +1/CL. With Practiced Spell Caster, that's an extra 9 damage for 9 hours per day. Throw in a Lesser Rod of Extend and those two casting will last all day long. Same with Greater Magic Fang. Barkskin also adds a couple of AC; not great but useful.

I understand that it is REALLY difficult for a Druid to justify "giving up that 100k+ a year job" for Master of Many Forms but I assume most people make characters with builds in mind. If they are going to go MoMF, Druid seems to be a better option. I know level 3 spells are not so game changing but I would think it warrants losing 2 BAB and a Feat.

Then again, I have spent far more time looking over what a Druid can do than what a Ranger can do. It is very well possible that there are a couple of tricks that I am unaware of that make Ranger synergize with MoMF better than a Druid. I also don't see great value for the 16 extra skill points for this character; that's something I could seriously be overlooking.

[Urpriest]

One small thing to keep in mind is that the Ranger can get Alertness as a bonus feat via Urban Companion. The Druid can as well, but that precludes trading out for rage.

[JadePhoenix]

Druids can get Wis to AC, but so do Rangers. The Moonwarded sub level does just that.

[Vladislav]

That's like saying that if you're going to go into elementary school teaching, it's best to start as an ER Doctor. While the ER doctor may have a couple relevant skills in the event a child gets injured, I don't know of many that would give up $100,000+ per year for it.
In the real world, a person checks his projected income, and realized he could make more if he was a doctor, not a teacher - so he goes to med school.

In a fictional world, a character checks JaronK's Class Tiers article, and decides a Druid is more powerful than Wildshape Ranger, so he'll go with Druid instead.

That's an incredibly relevant parallel. No, wait, it's not.


Which brings the question: Why would a druid want to do this?Since it's your character, you are in complete control of his motivation, and can provide him with any reason you like. Simplest would be - there was no Druidic grove next to where he grew, so lacking instruction from senior Druids, he chose a different career path.

So at least be honest and admit that what you're really asking is: "why would a player want to have his character do this?"
Which again has many answers, eg. "meh, he just likes the class' flavor" or "the group is too weak for a straight druid".

[candycorn]

So at least be honest and admit...
How about we assume that I'm "at least being honest" already, thank you very much.

I take a dim view of anyone who tries to persuade me to their side by accusing me of dishonesty.

[Philistine]

Stuff

That's great. But you really should at least be honest and admit that this entire thread, right from the Original Post, has been about why one option is considered to be mechanically superior to the other.

[eggynack]

I feel like this question has already been answered completely. While there is some validity to choosing rage over the +2 bab and the pile of skill points, it's not an absolute choice. Whirling frenzy may be a better damage dealer, but it's a less consistent benefit. The fact that going from druid to master of many forms is a downgrade compared to the upgrade in going from ranger can be a problem too. It's not a completely rational arguement if you can analyse the two ultimate builds and find that one is strictly better than the other despite the downgrade, but it's a factor nonetheless. Noone wants to enter a prestige class that loses things if they can avoid it, because a player naturally seeks an expansion of abilities. Even if going from druid to master of many forms were better in every way (which is arguable) the issue still exists that that move feels bad, while the ranger path feels good. In the first class you lose a vast quantity of power, and in the second you gain a vast quantity of power. This makes the appeal of the ranger path a bit more obvious.

[eggs]

Two considerations which haven't been mentioned are the Druid's use of the Enhance Wild Shape spell/items for access to Ex abilities before ECL 12, and the ACF-chainers' (not a real rule, but a common enough houserule to at least merit a nod) Rangers gaining access to barbarian spirit totems.

[eggynack]

Two considerations which haven't been mentioned are the Druid's use of the Enhance Wild Shape spell/items for access to Ex abilities before ECL 12, and the ACF-chainers' (not a real rule, but a common enough houserule to at least merit a nod) Rangers gaining access to barbarian spirit totems.

The enhance wildshape thing probably didn't come up because it's not a common aspect of the build. Trading away spellcasting for more wildshape hurts more the further into the class you get, and waiting an extra two levels hurts alot if wildshape is intended to be the character's whole shtick.

[Tvtyrant]

Hadn't considered Enhance Wildshape line. It is actually a pretty cool way to go about it honestly.

[erikun]

What I mean is giving up Animal Companion for Rage (and Possibly Whirling Frenzy) adds more damage overall than a +2 BAB. It equates to a +2 Attack and +1-3 damage. Adding Whirling Frenzy, you get an additional swing albeit at a -2 penalty for the rest of your attacks, if you go the "I'm like a Fighter but I'm a Cave Troll!" option. That BAB may help you all the time but that extra boost in Rage is more useful for an important fight, at least IMO.
+2 BAB applies for every attack, in every encounter. Rage 1/day only grants those bonuses for one fight, at best. You're looking at ~+2 damage in one fight in exchange for -2 to hit in all others.

Also note that the ranger still has two categories of favored enemy, meaning you'll see that +2 damage with the ranger anyways in some fights.

[Eisenfavl]

There are two possible reasons to ge with ranger MOMF:
Druids can get all the benefits of the prc with ~6 feats and two items, having effectively CL 20 shapechange by level 12.
Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger is about on par with druid, but doesn't advance spells past level 10 (caps at level 5 spells, that is). As such, it goes well with PRC's, especially martial ones like this. It really, really is a RAW Lightning Warrior.

[Togo]

It also depends on what kind of game you're playing. Depending on what is and isn't allowed, and what level you're playing at, I'd certainly prefer to have one MoMFs and one druid than two druids. I often play a MoMFs when the party already has spellcasting covered. It's also a good pick in tournaments and more restrictive games, where the nerfs and restrictions levelled at Tier 1 spell lists may leave a MoMFs as the mechanically superior choice.

The basic point is action economy. If you want to spend your time using your shape in combat, you might as well specialise your build, items and feats, in that. If you want to spend your time casting spells, you might as well specialise in that. If you want to be a MoMFs, what's important is not just whether spells are good or not, but whether they help you achieve what you want to achieve with the character. Five levels of druid spellcasting is useful, but may be not be so directly relevent to what you want to do.

[Soranar]

Alright, lets compare 2 builds and see how they fare.

Druid 5/Master of many forms 10

Level 1-5, you're a druid

-do you opt for a normal animal companion, knowing it'll be useful for about 7 levels or opt for an urban companion?
-as for the rage option mentioned earlier, you can't cast while raging so that becomes another question (and losing the animal companion is a steep cost at those levels, I'd much prefer having a meat shielf in front of me while I cast than being the meatshield)

Level 6+ here you get more interesting problems and tough choices

-do you concentrate on spellcasting? (go for a high WIS build, invest in casting feats)
-If you're allowed retraining this point is moot. If you're not allowed to retrain feats that changes things.
-Same thing goes for the extra feat, if you're allowed flaws it's not that powerful, if you're not allowed to take flaws losing a feat is a high cost.
-Do you take natural spell? (again a spellcasting feat, some might argue that you can already cast due to MOMF's shifter speech but some DMs might refute this).
-Do you take practiced spellcaster?

On the other hand you have the ranger build who doesn't have nearly as many tough choices to make

If I were to play a MOMF, I'd do the following

alternate class features:

champion of the wild
-considering the weakness of ranger spellcasting at level 5, since MOMF doesn't progress it, this seems like the best option and it makes mage slayer a viable choice
urban companion
-same as above, MOMF doesn't progress your animal companion so an urban companion would be more useful and survivable (I'd recommend the hawk for a whopping +14 to spot, since you don't get UMD a raven would be pointless)
arcane hunter
trap expert sometimes you don't want to trigger a trap to disable it

final tally of the pros and cons

-ranger gives more focus to your build (feats, stat choices, racial choices and even alignment options)
-ranger gives you access to a feat combo earlier (through feats not being wasted, high BAB and bonus feats)
-Depending on the choices you make, a low level druid build will be superior but high BAB builds are not exactly useless at lower levels
-assuming the druid takes the raging option, ranger gets to keep a familiar to scout ahead (even when considered level 1, it still gets half your BAB, 3/4 of your health and all your skills)
-finally, a mage slayer champion of the wild ranger comes out 2 feat on top which ends up making a fairly strong lockdown build

In theory druid might seem like a stronger choice but, realistically, a ranger ends up with a more focused, neater, build that performs fairly well at all levels. Until he can wildshape a ranger can equip a guisarme with armor spikes to recreate his lockdown abilities. Once he gets to wildshape he doesn't need to bother with those tricks. A ranger can also completely ignore all of his STATS except CON and meeting basic requirements for feats. He'll also be able to ignore the concentration, realistically increasing his skillpoint by a fair marging (unless you intend to chance not investing in it at all).

[Kaje]

Druids can get Wis to AC, but so do Rangers. The Moonwarded sub level does just that.

Doesn't Moonwarded replace Combat Style? Wildshape Rangers can't take that then.

[nedz]

Is it worth considering what happens after level 15 ?

These MoMF builds are basically done at this point, and whilst Nature's Warrior is a good 5 level exit, it is just icing on the cake.

Whilst both builds have the option of advancing spell-casting by taking a full casting PrC it is the Druid who can exploit this best. Is level 10 Druid casting, with 5th level spells, of any relevance at level 20 ?

[Urpriest]

Is it worth considering what happens after level 15 ?

These MoMF builds are basically done at this point, and whilst Nature's Warrior is a good 5 level exit, it is just icing on the cake.

Whilst both builds have the option of advancing spell-casting by taking a full casting PrC it is the Druid who can exploit this best. Is level 10 Druid casting, with 5th level spells, of any relevance at level 20 ?

On the other hand, the non-Druid can comparatively guiltlessly take Warshaper.

[nedz]

On the other hand, the non-Druid can comparatively guiltlessly take Warshaper.

Well, since it doesn't advance spell casting, so can the Druid :smallsmile:

[Soranar]

Considering the magic items you're getting at that level I'm not sure warshaper would be worth it. Getting crit immunity isn't that impressive anymore, extra reach is nice but you morph into huge creatures anyway so it's not crucial, finally the extra STR isn't that impressive either.

I'd just take Warblade 5. You'd get d12 hitpoints, full BAB and your initiator level would start at 8.

Or I'd go for the standard Deepwarden 2/Fist of the Forest 1 for Con AC and finish off with 2 levels of warblade

[hushblade]

^What about the free morphing into a new form every level at Warshaper 5? Great capstone there, not 100% sure its worth the 5 lost wildshape HD, but still an excellent choice.

[nedz]

I guess its going to be hard to beat Druid +5 for the Druid.
BAB +4, more spells and more Wildshaping.

Ranger +5 would get you +5 BAB, more wildshaping, a few spells, Evasion, and oh yeah some other stuff.
I suspect there are better options for the Ranger.

[Azernak0]

Well, I would say that the Wildshape Ranger and the Druid are both fairly clunky at low level. The Ranger and the Druid both have the same schtick; maximize Constitution, get at least 13 strength for Power Attack, and mental stats are nice. Strength and Dexterity aren't really needed because they get replaced anyway.

Let's say the Ranger goes:
STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 16
WIS: 10
INT: 14 (For Improved Trip or maybe Knowledge Devotion)
CHA: 10

With a greatsword, they are just doing 2d6+3 damage a hit. Not great, not terrible. Power Attack helps their damage but it is clear they are waiting for level 5 for that ultra sexy Fleshraker. With their feats being really open, they can get Improved Trip instead of Ranger Spells with the variant, get Knowledge Devotion at level 3, and take Power Attack and Alertness at level 1 (assuming Human or a flaw). Or he can go Shock Trooper. I will admit that getting two feats over the Druid is a bigger boon that I was expecting.

Druid:
STR: 14
DEX: 12
CON: 16
WIS: 16
CHA: 10

This Druid doesn't have an Animal Companion in favor of Whirling Frenzy but does have spells. They can still do Entangle, Produce Flame, and even Shillelagh. A greatclub with Shillelagh (he can cast it, move in closer to an enemy, and than Rage on that turn or next turn) deals 3d8+4. Yes, it is basically only for 2 fights and level 1 and 3 fights at level 2 but it does give more killing power. This does get hurt quite a bit in the feat department though. Power Attack and Alertness at level 1 (flaw or human) and endurance at third. Ranger would have Improved Trip at level 4 and Knowledge Devotion/the prerequisites for Shock Trooper.

I guess it works out like this:
Level 1-3 the Druid is better. They are only down 1 BAB and they have spells.
level 4 is close. Improved Trip is a really useful ability and the Druid has more 2nd level spells.
Level 5 i think goes to the Druid. Greater Magic Fang on all your Natural Weapons and turning into a Fleshraker is better than just turning into a Fleshraker.
Level 6-15 will either be Druid being better or the Ranger being so close they end up equal. It is hard to say for me. Level 3 spells are not game breaking and Rage only lasts for 1 fight. Depending what the Ranger takes with their feats, they could get a serious lead. I would say that "the Druid is better for a single fight and after that, it is really close."
16+ who cares? These levels don't exist for melee, silly! They are meant for full casters! In all seriousness, it's hard to say. Druid has two options; go back into Druid or go Nature's Warrior/Warshaper. Ranger will likely just go Nature's Warrior/Warshaper.

So I guess I can say that the Druid is better in regards to be able to do the "HULK SMASH!" version of MoMF because of Spikes and other buffs while the Ranger has more tactical options because of open feats (I have always been terrible at gauging how powerful Shock Trooper is in a 'real campaign' because it is a fairly large variance at times).

If someone were to really press me, I guess I would ask "Why is Ranger the go-to base class for MoMF rather than Druid?" It can't just be because "Druid 20 is better so if you are a Druid, just stay a Druid." That would be like saying "Don't be a Sorcerer/Fighter because straight Sorcerer is better."

[Larkas]

A quick question: does a Wild Shape Ranger get Wild Shape only at 5th level, like a Druid, or when it would otherwise get Combat Style? If the latter is true, wouldn't a better entry build into MoMF be Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Wild Shape Mystic Ranger 4?

[Lord_Gareth]

^What about the free morphing into a new form every level at Warshaper 5? Great capstone there, not 100% sure its worth the 5 lost wildshape HD, but still an excellent choice.

It is worth much more than those five HD.

[Togo]

Well, probably not actually.

Those missing 5 hit dice are knocking out an awful lot of new forms, and improvements on existing forms. Variety is the key power of the MoMFs. Remember you're not comparing warshaper to higher HD forms, you're comparing it to better forms and whatever you can get with a different prestige class. Immunity to criticals and stunning is good, but can be duplicated with a feat. The capstone ability is excellent, but with the right feats you can get wildshape as a free action anyway, without the 1/round restriction. The question then becomes whether you want to shift more than 11 times a day. Or whether you'd rather have, say, the 2 more levels of spells, AC bonus, grapple bonus and special movement abilities from Nature's warrior, AND the extra hit dice.

If you do want to go Warshaper, then pick up an amulet of wildshape to replace 4 of the missing HD. That's a good option if you have access to cutomised items, since you'll have lot of different option vying for that neck slot.

The reason why feats are so important for a MoMFs is that they're noticeably better than they are for other classes. Increasing the speed of your wildshape, getting immunity to crits, getting supernatural abilities or magical beast abilities, pounce, large bonuses to movement or skill checks. And you don't get enough of them, particularly since you had to pick alertness and endurance early in your career.

Incidently, spikes is mainly worth it at mid-low levels. At higher levels shelleigh does more damage, because both you and the club are so large, but that spell can't be cast on a club that already has spikes on it.

[hushblade]

Warshaper 5 essentially turns it into an all day(well, 15 hours/day without the extra wild shape feat) shapechange at 15HD, as opposed to a mere 3 forms per day with 20 HD, I'd probably have the former.

I honestly never knew about the wildshape amulet, but that nearly makes up for lost HD from warshaper, I'd call it the better choice.