Feral Mutagen Ruling question

[Embarec]

So yeah.

"Feral Mutagen

Benefit: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks."



Does that mean a level 2-3 alchemist can make a full attack consisting of a bite, a claw, and a claw, all for his full BAB each (For the purpose of this question, let's assume he has a +6)

So basically, 3 +6 to hit attacks from it? Or are completely miss-reading this?

[Benly]

So yeah.

"Feral Mutagen

Benefit: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks."



Does that mean a level 2-3 alchemist can make a full attack consisting of a bite, a claw, and a claw, all for his full BAB each (For the purpose of this question, let's assume he has a +6)

So basically, 3 +6 to hit attacks from it? Or are completely miss-reading this?

As written, yes. Normally either the claws or the bite would be at full bonus and the other would be at -5, but Feral Mutagen explicitly calls them out as all being primary attacks.

[grarrrg]

Natural Attack rules linky (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks).

If you are ONLY using Natural attacks, then any/all labeled as 'Primary' are done at full accuracy (usually Bab+Str), and any/all labeled 'Secondary' are done at full accuracy minus 5.
If you only have one type of Natural attack, then they are considered 'Primary' regardless of if they were normally 'Secondaries'.-

If you use a Weapon AND make Natural attacks in the same round, then the Weapon functions as normal, but ALL Natural attacks are considered 'Secondary' and get the -5 to-hit penalty.

If you qualify for the Multiattack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/multiattack-combat) feat the Secondary penalty is reduced to -2 to-hit.

Also, holding a weapon with a limb that has a Natural attack prevents you from using that attack (i.e. a Claw/hand holding a Sword can use the Sword but not the Claw).

So in your case you can either attack with Bite/Claw/Claw all at +6.
OR you can use a 1-handed weapon for Weapon +6, Bite/Claw +1.

[The Glyphstone]

As written, yes. Normally either the claws or the bite would be at full bonus and the other would be at -5, but Feral Mutagen explicitly calls them out as all being primary attacks.

One of the weird things Pathfinder did was change that. As explained here, Primary or Secondary isn't a function of 'one primary, others secondary' anymore, but a direct function of what type of attack it is.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks
So Bite attacks (and Claw, Gore, Slam, Sting, and Talon) attacks are always Primary unless they're being used alongside a manufactured weapon, while Hooves, Pincers, Wings, Tail Slaps, Tentacles, and anything else are Secondary attacks regardless of if you're also using a manufactured weapon or not.


Blargh, swordsaged.

[Benly]

One of the weird things Pathfinder did was change that. As explained here, Primary or Secondary isn't a function of 'one primary, others secondary' anymore, but a direct function of what type of attack it is.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks
So Bite attacks (and Claw, Gore, Slam, Sting, and Talon) attacks are always Primary unless they're being used alongside a manufactured weapon, while Hooves, Pincers, Wings, Tail Slaps, Tentacles, and anything else are Secondary attacks regardless of if you're also using a manufactured weapon or not.

Huh, interesting! There's all these little details I miss in the transition. Then yeah, the feral mutagen isn't even doing anything weird.

[Embarec]

Holy crap and I thought BOMBS were op.... This thing makes zen archer monk look tame!

[grarrrg]

Holy crap and I thought BOMBS were op.... This thing makes zen archer monk look tame!

Umm...
I'll just leave this here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13214741) and put on a rain poncho for when your head asplodes.

[Lateral]

Umm...
I'll just leave this here (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13214741) and put on a rain poncho for when your head asplodes.

I'm pretty sure that what he said was some manner of sarcasm.

...I hope that it was some manner of sarcasm.

[Embarec]

Thank you Graggrrr. I'd actually thought of that, but they are going full alchemist build. Still...... Good Lord.

[The Glyphstone]

When you're using a Monk, even a Zen Archer monk,as your baseline, most things will look OP.

EDIT: Actually, now that I'm reading through it, a Zen Archer is pretty darn good. Fantastic if you get a Guided bow.

[Benly]

When you're using a Monk, even a Zen Archer monk,as your baseline, most things will look OP.

EDIT: Actually, now that I'm reading through it, a Zen Archer is pretty darn good. Fantastic if you get a Guided bow.

Yeah, Zen Archer is probably the strongest monk around and actually runs on par with or ahead of other classes within its area of expertise. Sohei is a pretty good runner-up, for much the same reason (the ability to flurry with actual decent weapons.) I'm personally fond of Tetori as well, but it's a very different direction and still has a few of the classic grappler problems.

[Rickshaw]

In my last campaign I played an alchemist with Feral Mutagen. By the time I was high enough level to take master chymist, I was doing something like 3d8+30 on bites.

enlarge person, improved natural attack, etc. the DM eventually took him over and had me make a new char because I started eating bosses, eating houses, eating....well, you get the idea. Misbehaving. =P

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, Zen Archer is probably the strongest monk around and actually runs on par with or ahead of other classes within its area of expertise. Sohei is a pretty good runner-up, for much the same reason (the ability to flurry with actual decent weapons.) I'm personally fond of Tetori as well, but it's a very different direction and still has a few of the classic grappler problems.

I thought the front-runners were Zen Archer and Hungry Ghost myself - A HG Quigong fighting with a high-crit Ki-compatible weapon can be an immensely self-sufficient damage machine.

[grarrrg]

Thank you Graggrrr. I'd actually thought of that, but they are going full alchemist build. Still...... Good Lord.

Who?
RUNNING GAG!


EDIT: Actually, now that I'm reading through it, a Zen Archer is pretty darn good. Fantastic if you get a Guided bow.

Zen Archer holds its own in any Archery type build.
I've crunched the numbers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12902283&postcount=9), and Monk is the overall best Archer from levels 3-through-10 (doesn't get Wis-to-hit until 3). After 10-ish it starts losing features and you're better off multi-classing out.
It's also pretty sweet because you can "dump" Dex down to 13 and use the Monk Bonus feats to snag the high-Dex ones.

[Benly]

I thought the front-runners were Zen Archer and Hungry Ghost myself - A HG Quigong fighting with a high-crit Ki-compatible weapon can be an immensely self-sufficient damage machine.

I'm kind of hesitant to compliment Hungry Ghost because it feels so hacky - basically, it's there to patch over the fact that monks can't recover ki, so it feels less like "here's a neat idea for a monk" and more like "here's a way you can spend character resources to paper over bad design ideas". That said, if you're planning to expend a lot of ki (such as a qinggong-heavy build), then either that, drunken master, or ki mystic is pretty much the way to go.