Full-round sneak attack.

[Sunken Valley]

Question.

If a character with sneak attack is able to do this with multiple attacks, does each attack have the sneak attack damage added to it?

Because at high levels that is pretty broken.

[Greyfeld85]

Sneak attacks may be made any time you strike a target you are flanking, or who is denied their dexterity to AC. So yes, you can get the sneak attack bonus on every attack of a full attack.

And no, it's not broken.

[Namfuak]

Yes, but it really is not overpowered, if you consider that against a single, armored melee enemy (a straight 20th level rogue won't have a snowball's chance in hell of catching a 20th wizard flat-footed if he can actually hit him in melee in the first place) has a very good chance of only being hit by the first two attacks (maybe 4 with TWF) and not the last two. If we figure that the rogue hits the enemy on a 5 with his full BAB, that means he hits him on a 10 with -5, and only on a 15 with -10. Even if you figure that a rogue only fails on a 1 for his first attack and hits on a 5 for his second, his third attack only has a 50% chance of hitting. If all 3 attacks hit, he gets what, +30d6? That's an average of 105 damage. Well built power attackers can do that much in one hit, and they have a full base attack bonus (as opposed to a rogue's 3/4) and can do it without having to catch the enemy flat-footed or flanked.

[Sunken Valley]

Sneak attacks may be made any time you strike a target you are flanking, or who is denied their dexterity to AC. So yes, you can get the sneak attack bonus on every attack of a full attack.

And no, it's not broken.

In Pathfinder, 15th level Ninja with invisible blade= 24d6 a round. More when weapon damage is added in.

[BlueEyes]

SA can be negated.

[The Glyphstone]

In Pathfinder, 15th level Ninja with invisible blade= 24d6 a round. More when weapon damage is added in.

That's only, assuming all that hits, 84 damage on average. A Power Attacking Barbarian, for comparison, could do an equal amount of damage with a higher attack bonus and more survivability when the enemy counter-attacked. And yeah, you can't negate the barbarian's greatsword except by not being there.

[FMArthur]

A spellcaster can do more damage with greater reliability from significantly greater safety. Even a poor spellcaster class like Warmage.

If you want to avoid taking a full attack in Pathfinder, chances are that you can just tumble slightly farther away from the rogue and that will prevent them from making more than one attack almost 100% of the time.

[ericgrau]

Question.

Answers:


If a character with sneak attack is able to do this with multiple attacks, does each attack have the sneak attack damage added to it?

Yeup.


Because at high levels that is pretty broken.
Between medium Base Attack Bonus and attack penalties over half the attacks don't even hit. And some things aren't even subject to sneak attack. Splitting the player's budget between 2 magic weapons further decreasing damage. Most characters with sneak attack have light armor and low hp, meaning that can't attack in melee for more than 1-3 rounds without being in serious danger. And the first of those very limited round(s) is often a single attack due to movement. Overall not only is it not overpowered, the damage tends to be very low compared to other classes including both fighter-types and mages. They make up for it by having lots of skills.

Between not actually being that strong in the first place, nerfed/improper sneak attack, and nerfed/improper skills many DMs tend to shaft rogues hard. Please lay off. It's okay when all their toys work perfectly, they aren't actually that great.

[Voyager_I]

Because at high levels that is pretty broken.

Melee damage isn't scary by high levels.

If well optimized, melee characters can retain their ability to kill things, but certainly no more than stronger archetypes with a similar level of optimization. Even among melees, Sneak Attack is far from king; other builds do more damage with better reliability while being harder to kill.

[Curmudgeon]

SA can be negated.
Sure, you can counter sneak attack, for example with 100% fortification. But there's a counter to that counter in the form of the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF, where a Rogue will still deal 68% of their full sneak attack damage to someone with 100% fortification (once Craven is figured in).

[Prime32]

Question.

If a character with sneak attack is able to do this with multiple attacks, does each attack have the sneak attack damage added to it?

Because at high levels that is pretty broken.
"Wizard, what can you do?"
"I can read minds and rewrite them in any way I wish, view or teleport to any point in the multiverse with 100% accuracy, trap enemies in barriers which cannot be escaped or destroyed by any means, summon or transform into any creature that exists, create illusions convincing enough to scare people to death, negate any form of attack or confinement, create any form of weather including hurricanes and meteors, negate the powers of others, raise the dead (with the option for a controlled zombie apocalypse where the zombies are indestructible and can fly/pass through walls), stop time, see through any disguise or concealment, create alternate universes, and create clones of myself with all my powers. Oh, and I can reverse causality so that I can always cast multiple spells before my opponent can act, even if I'm unaware of them or unconscious."
"Alright, rogue, what can you do?"
"I can stab people in the back. (I mean, as long as I have something to hide behind. And they have backs.)"

[Togath]

"Wizard, what can you do?"
"I can read minds and rewrite them in any way I wish, view or teleport to any point in the multiverse with 100% accuracy, trap enemies in barriers which cannot be escaped or destroyed by any means, summon or transform into any creature that exists, create illusions convincing enough to scare people to death, negate any form of attack or confinement, create any form of weather including hurricanes and meteors, negate the powers of others, raise the dead (with the option for a controlled zombie apocalypse where the zombies are indestructible and can fly/pass through walls), stop time, see through any disguise or concealment, create alternate universes, and create clones of myself with all my powers. Oh, and I can reverse causality so that I can always cast multiple spells before my opponent can act, even if I'm unaware of them or unconscious."
"Alright, rogue, what can you do?"
"I can stab people in the back. (I mean, as long as I have something to hide behind. And they have backs.)"

Do you mind if I sig this?

[Greyfeld85]

Sure, you can counter sneak attack, for example with 100% fortification. But there's a counter to that counter in the form of the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF, where a Rogue will still deal 68% of their full sneak attack damage to someone with 100% fortification (once Craven is figured in).

Or you can... you know... not get flanked. *Shrugs*

[Acanous]

OK, so a rogue can deal a decent chunk of damage if he hits with all his attacks and his opponent is vulnerable to SA and also denied his dex to AC through some means. Let's Maximize the Rogue SA dice and say he went TWF, starting adjascent to an enemy and acting before him on initiative. So he gets 120 D6 Sa + 6D8 weapon damage. Being a Rogue, he'd usually max Dex, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say he maxed STR. 20+5 from level ups+5 from books means +10 damage per attack, or 828 maximum damage.

Now let's look at a Barbarian. We'll give him the Beast totem for pounce, with Power Attack, Overbearing Assault, Overbearing Advance, Combat Reflexes, Improved Overrun, Greater Overrun, Improved Bull Rush, Quick bull rush, Greater Bull Rush and Spiked Destroyer.

So this Barbarian starts by Raging and charge attacking. Assume he put his 18 in STR and gets a +2 to it, then regular level up bonuses/items/books. So 36 STR, +8 'cuz he's Raging, 44 STR is +17.

Hokai. Barbarian chooses to free Overrun something with his rage feature during his charge. They take 17+1d4+17 and trigger an opportunity attack. He uses his rage feature to swap that AO for a Bull Rush, which deals another 17+1d4+17, and triggers an opportunity attack. He swings his two-hander for 2d6+25+18, pushing the target back say, one square.

He continues his charge, and uses his ability to Overrun multiple times in the same round with a -2 penalty. So they take another 17+1d4+17 and trigger an attack of opportunity. He switches this AO for a Bull Rush with the Quick Bull Rush feat, so they take another 17+1d4+17 damage, and trigger an AO, which he uses to swing at them with his two hander for 2d6+25+18.
They get pushed back another 5 feet, the barbarian continues his movement, and takes a further -2 penalty to overrun them *Again*. That's another 17+1d4+17, triggering yet another AO for 2d6+25+18. OK! He's finally out of bull rush and can't overrun that same target anymore. So he'll Full Attack it, for 8d6+100+74. Plus a total of 24 for charging, as it adds +2 damage in PF.

So, assuming Neither the Barbarian NOR the Rogue have any enchantments on their weapons, the Barbarian clocks in at potential 601 damage, against the Rogue's 828. From this angle, yes, the rogue out-damages the Barbarian.
But in an actual game? The Barbarian is only missing on a Natural 1 for all of those attacks save the final two, which have around a 75% and a 50% hit chance, respectively, While the Rogue starts off with a 75% twice, dropping to 50% twice, then 25% twice, and dice are never maximized.

(The To Hit on the Barb is going to be 20+17=37, wheras on the Rogue it'd be 15+10. Something the Rogue needs a Natural 20 on, the Barbarian hits on an 8+.)

Now, Math makes this part easy. Multiply the damage by the hit chance and you get the average contribution from that attack.
We can do this very wuickly, because 75+25=100, and 50+50=100, so the rogue's average is going to be full damage for three attacks.
390 Damage, assuming all dice maximized. 371 accounting for Nat 1's.

Barbarian gets 12 attacks, 10 of those at 100%, one at 75%, and one at 50%, clocking in at 559 on average. 531 if we account for natural 1's.

So we can see that based on hit chance, the Barbarian pulls ahead.
What if the dice aren't maximized? What if you have a *Really Bad* turn, and all your dice come up 1's? (Hey, it's just as likely as all 6's)

The Rogue clocks in at 188 if all his attacks hit, 93 on average.
The Barbarian clocks in at 511 if all his attacks hit, 479 on average.

Now, neither of these cases are going to be average. On Average, the Rogue's SA dice are going to add up to 420, if all hit, plus 60 from his STR and another 27 weapon damage, or 507 damage total.
Meaning the Rogue's Average damage on a full-round of sneak attacking, if every single attack hits, is slightly less than the barbarian's minimum.

That's one heck of a discrepancy, and should showcase how at the mercy of the dice a rogue really is.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Acanous, I must ask: how are you doing 120d6 Sneak Attack damage with the Rogue? A level 20 Rogue, +15 BAB, +10d6 Sneak Attack damage with the Two Weapon Fighting line as far as it takes them, gets six attacks at +10d6 Sneak Attack damage each, which amounts to only +60d6 on a full attack.

Not that you can't get more than that, but your post suggests +20d6 on a single attack (which is +1d6 at every level). Unless I'm missing something here that Pathfinder provides, your assessment is actually +60d6 above the actual numbers, which is 360 damage if all dice are maximized (which you assume they are for this thought experiment) and 60 if all dice are minimized. That means the actual numbers for the Rogue are 468 if all dice fall as 6, and 128 if all dice fall as 1 (I'm just subtracting the differences from your original totals to come to this conclusion). That makes the Rogue universally weaker on all levels of dice rolls than the Barbarian, but still more dice-dependent, whereas the Barbarian receives more flat bonuses. And since this is Pathfinder-based, it's taking into account all the nerfs melee chargers take, and lack of access to all the splatbook bonuses a 3.5 charger gets; if you were to build this as a 3.5 Rogue vs. Barbarian comparison, the Rogue doesn't get significantly stronger (it might actually be weaker, since Craven is the only good damage bonus Rogues get to SA, and Pathfinder might have better stuff), and the Barbarian gets way better.

[Prime32]

Do you mind if I sig this?Go ahead.

[navar100]

Question.

If a character with sneak attack is able to do this with multiple attacks, does each attack have the sneak attack damage added to it?

Because at high levels that is pretty broken.

Do you think it's broken for a 10th level character to deal 10d6 damage to everyone within a 40ft diameter circle while standing over 400ft away? How about as a standard action? How about 400ft in the air? While invisible?

[Ketiara]

As a pure ranged rogue the most I managed to sneak for was 40d6 as lvl 14 I was lucky enough to hit with ally shots while hasted using rapid shot.
And that only happened to me once normally I only hit around half my shots... When I finally managed to get into a sneak possition.

[gbprime]

Acanous, I must ask: how are you doing 120d6 Sneak Attack damage with the Rogue?

Polymorph the rogue into a 12 headed hydra, then flank someone.

[Duke of URL]

The damage, as noted, is pretty poor considering what other classes can do at those levels. However, with the Crippling Strike ability and the Savvy Rogue feat, the strength damage you can levy -- even if they are immune to precision damage -- can be quite impressive if you can find a way to a) get in position to full attack and still qualify for sneak attack (I recommend boosting Initiative and using one of the ways to move as a swift action) and b) have a good way of maximizing the chances of actually hitting. Add natural attacks (and even a braid blade -- who cares about the nonproficiency penalty.. at the very least you're tacking on strength damage an extra 5% of the time) for extra fun.

[ericgrau]

Polymorph the rogue into a 12 headed hydra, then flank someone.
Note that this relies on the "Attacking with 12 heads is not actually making more attacks than normal" rules interpretation; otherwise the polymorph chain would forbid it. Not that you would deal 120d6 sneak attack damage anyway even with a rather liberal interpretation of the rules, because attacks are not hits. With rogue BAB, a 23 strength and no magical enhancements you're looking at maybe 2 hits at level 20. Buffs might increase that to 5-6.

[Boci]

Sure, you can counter sneak attack, for example with 100% fortification. But there's a counter to that counter in the form of the Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF, where a Rogue will still deal 68% of their full sneak attack damage to someone with 100% fortification (once Craven is figured in).

Neither of which are PF material, which the OP's 2nd post indicated they seem to be playing.

[gbprime]

Note that this relies on the "Attacking with 12 heads is not actually making more attacks than normal" rules interpretation

He's polymorphed into a hydra. There's nothing "normal" about it. :smallwink:

But seriously, I'm of the school that says that when you change into a monster, you make the monster's NORMAL attacks. You don't get extra attacks from a high BAB. So in the case of a level 20 rogue being a 12 headed hydra, (s)he gets the 12 attacks that a hydra normally gets, but does not get 2 extra attacks for having a high BAB.

And as long as you're at it, Bite of the Werebear. The rogue's friend could have applied both at once with Greater Arcane Fusion. and neither cancels out the Improved Invisibility the Rogue put up the round before. Those bonuses to hit are starting to add up. :smallamused:

[ericgrau]

I meant that polymorph says it works like alter self except blah blah blah, and alter self specifically forbids extra attacks. Some people have rather creative interpretations that say the 12 heads are not extra attacks.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Polymorph the rogue into a 12 headed hydra, then flank someone.

Oh, I gathered we were talking about a typical TWF Rogue vs. a charging Barbarian. My bad.

[Voyager_I]

Oh, I gathered we were talking about a typical TWF Rogue vs. a charging Barbarian. My bad.

UMD > Class Features. Have Monks taught you nothing?

[SowZ]

There are ways to make the SA better, though. For example, get a way to reroll ones, (it is easy,) and it pays off when you are rolling so many SA dice. Not nearly as good as, say, Craven. But with the right items and feats you can be doing 150 damage on a good sneak attack.

With the same level of optimization and money spent on other things, sure, you can do more damage with other things but it isn't bad.

[Greyfeld85]

He's polymorphed into a hydra. There's nothing "normal" about it. :smallwink:

But seriously, I'm of the school that says that when you change into a monster, you make the monster's NORMAL attacks. You don't get extra attacks from a high BAB. So in the case of a level 20 rogue being a 12 headed hydra, (s)he gets the 12 attacks that a hydra normally gets, but does not get 2 extra attacks for having a high BAB.

And as long as you're at it, Bite of the Werebear. The rogue's friend could have applied both at once with Greater Arcane Fusion. and neither cancels out the Improved Invisibility the Rogue put up the round before. Those bonuses to hit are starting to add up. :smallamused:

Iterative attacks from BAB can only be taken when using a weapon or unarmed attack. You can make natural attacks in addition to your regular BAB iterative attacks if you can wield a weapon or make regular unarmed attacks, but the natural attacks you have access to have nothing to do with the number of iterative attacks you can take due to your BAB.