Proposed fixes for non-casters in Pathfinder

[Larkas]

I've seen people commenting time and again that Pathfinder failed greatly at one thing: it actually managed to make non-casters WORSE. Mainly, people complain that some vital feats were made much worse and that alone make some character classes or archetypes virtually unplayable. The ones below are generally seen as the greatest offenders. Let me know what you think of the fixes, and please tell me if I missed anything.


Deadly Aim (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by pinpointing a foe's weak spot, at the expense of making the attack less likely to succeed.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to gain a bonus on all ranged damage rolls. If you do, you take a penalty on all ranged attack rolls equal to half that bonus, rounded up. That bonus may not exceed your base attack bonus. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.



Power Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to gain a bonus on all melee damage rolls. If you do, you take a penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks equal to half that bonus, rounded up. That bonus may not exceed your base attack bonus. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.



Improved Bull Rush (Combat)

You are skilled at pushing your foes around, and your bull rush attacks throw enemies off balance.

Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +4 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. You also receive a +4 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to bull rush you. Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush combat maneuver. Creatures moved by bull rush do not provoke attacks of opportunity.



Improved Disarm (Combat)

You are skilled at knocking weapons far from a foe's grasp.

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +4 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. You also receive a +4 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to disarm you. Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. Disarmed weapons and gear land at the feet of the disarmed creature.



Improved Feint (Combat)

You are skilled at fooling your opponents in combat.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action. Whenever you use feint to cause an opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus, he loses that bonus until the beginning of your next turn, in addition to losing his Dexterity bonus against your next attack.

Normal: Feinting in combat is a standard action. A creature you feint loses its Dexterity bonus against your next attack.



Improved Grapple (Combat)

You are skilled at grappling opponents, and maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisite: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +4 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +4 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.



Improved Overrun (Combat)

You are skilled at running down your foes, and enemies must dive to avoid your dangerous move.

Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +4 bonus on checks made to overrrun a foe. You also receive a +4 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to overrun you. Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you. Whenever you overrun opponents, they provoke attacks of opportunity if they are knocked prone by your overrun.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing an overrun combat maneuver. Creatures knocked prone by your overrun do not provoke an attack of opportunity.



Improved Sunder (Combat)

You are skilled at damaging your foes' weapons and armor. Your devastating strikes cleave through weapons and armor and into their wielders, damaging both item and wielder alike in a single terrific strike.

Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +4 bonus on checks made to sunder an item. You also receive a +4 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to sunder your gear. Whenever you sunder to destroy a weapon, shield, or suit of armor, any excess damage is applied to the item's wielder. No damage is transferred if you decide to leave the item with 1 hit point.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a sunder combat maneuver.



Improved Trip (Combat)

You are skilled at sending your opponents to the ground, and you can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +4 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. You also receive a +4 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to trip you. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, you may immediately make a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver. Making a trip attempt uses up your attack for the turn.
Note that these fixes require the removal of the respective "Greater" feats from the game.

PS: Yeah, yeah, people actually say that Deadly Aim is something Pathfinder did RIGHT, by actually redeeming archers and such. But if I'm fixing Power Attack, I have to mess with it too, right?

[Shadowknight12]

The only way to fix non-casters in PF or 3.5 without remaking them from scratch and without tampering with casters is to give them spells. Make them (Ex), if you want, refluff them at pleasure, but non-casters will never be on par with casters without spells or a complete overhaul of the system.

[Prime32]

At a glance, Improved Trip is still worse than the 3.5e version. +4 vs attempts to trip you is situational, and 3.5's isn't effectively limited to 1/round (also note that you get an AoO when they stand up anyway - PF's Greater Trip makes you give this up unless you have Combat Reflexes).

Though honestly, all of these feats are things people should have for free. If you're fighting on a bridge, you might want to push enemies off it - this shouldn't get you killed just because you didn't build your entire character around pushing people. Likewise for switching between melee and ranged weapons.

[Larkas]

The only way to fix non-casters in PF or 3.5 without remaking them from scratch and without tampering with casters is to give them spells. Make them (Ex), if you want, refluff them at pleasure, but non-casters will never be on par with casters without spells or a complete overhaul of the system.

Right. You do realize I never said I wanted to "fix the system" or "bring non-casters to the same power level as casters", right? I merely said I wanted to fix some feats that were screwed up on the transition :smallannoyed:


At a glance, Improved Trip is still worse than the 3.5e version. +4 vs attempts to trip you is situational, and 3.5's isn't effectively limited to 1/round (also note that you get an AoO when they stand up anyway - PF's Greater Trip makes you give this up unless you have Combat Reflexes).

Of course you're right, I totally forgot that standing up from prone actually provokes AoO (and apparently, PF's developers did too :smallbiggrin: ). Fixed. I don't know what you mean by "limited to 1/round", though, are you talking about AoO here too? The +4 to CMD is usual fare: it's just something all these feats do in PF, it's the +4 to CMB that's really important. I just wanted to bring back the functionality of 3.5 (i.e.: being able to do this stuff with just one feat instead of two) without sacrificing the bonuses PF came up with, however minor (and the original Improved+Greater feats would add just +2 to CMD, I buffed this a bit too).


Though honestly, all of these feats are things people should have for free. If you're fighting on a bridge, you might want to push enemies off it - this shouldn't get you killed just because you didn't build your entire character around pushing people. Likewise for switching between melee and ranged weapons.

That's why I tried to go back to 3.5's way of doing things with just one feat instead of two, though I understand what you're saying. One idea is to give all full BAB classes the ability to start any of these combat maneuvers without provoking AoO, maybe with a bonus feat with just that purpose given at 1st level to all these classes (and to the monk). If you want to specialize in grappling, you could still get the Improved Grapple feat, which would still give you +4 to CMB and CMD and the abilities to maintain a grapple with a move action and to make two grapple checks each round.

That is beyond the scope of these fixes, though. Like I said, I just wanted to bring back the functionality from the 3.5 counterparts to these feats, with minor, though obvious, buffs.

[Prime32]

That's why I tried to go back to 3.5's way of doing things with just one feat instead of two, though I understand what you're saying. One idea is to give all full BAB classes the ability to start any of these combat maneuvers without provoking AoO, maybe with a bonus feat with just that purpose given at 1st level to all these classes (and to the monk).Still seems overly complex compared to just making them basic combat options. A Str-dumping wizard isn't going to be good at bull rushing anyway.

If you want full BAB classes to have an advantage though, you could try the Advanced Combat rules (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Advanced_Combat) from Races of War.


If you want to specialize in grappling, you could still get the Improved Grapple feat, which would still give you +4 to CMB and CMD and the abilities to maintain a grapple with a move action and to make two grapple checks each round.:smallconfused: A grapple check is an attack action. Or did PF nerf that?

[navar100]

Pathfinder non-casters don't need fixing. If you don't like the Pathfinder feats, use the 3E version. The Trip line I'm still unsure about, but I have no problem with Pathfinder's Power Attack. I'm seeing it in play with the party's Paladin, and he's having no issues. When he was using sword and shield he was doing significant damage. Campaign circumstances now has him using a weapon two-handed and is doing even more.

The only thing the Power Attack change really affected was no longer being able to use the Shock Trooper trick of using all your BAB into Power Attack without sacrificing your to hit bonus. It is rather nice for that not to be the only thing warriors should do. The Power Attack change, along with other feats in support, means sword & shield style and two-weapon style are no longer strictly inferior to two-handed style. Two-handed style may yet still dish out the most damage if you crunch the numbers, but it no longer means if you aren't using a two-handed weapon you're The Suck. I find this a good thing.

[Larkas]

:smallconfused: A grapple check is an attack action. Or did PF nerf that?

Sorry for taking, uh, 16 days to answer :smalltongue: This should explain:


Greater Grapple (Combat)

Maintaining a grapple is second nature to you.

Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6, Dex 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

Normal: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action.

[Libertad]

Here's a thread suggesting ways to incorporate Tome of Battle into Pathfinder. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128578)

And another at Brilliant Gameologists. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12033.0)

Since Crusaders, Swordsages, and Warblades are reflavored Paladins/Monks/Fighters, I'd recommend replacing those 3 classes. They'll definitely step the game up for melee types.

[Blisstake]

A note before I start... (spoilered if you'd like to disregard)

I think it's a bit unfair to say PF nerfed non-casters. Yes, I understand exactly where you're coming from, but I don't count removing one trick pony builds like uberchargers and trippers as nerfing them. They took away some of the extremely powerful, and in some cases, ridiculous options that forced players to build that way, but to balance it out, gave them a better chasis to work with.

Plus, a lot of ridiculous options were taken away from other classes (Divine Metamagic, Polymorph/Wildshape, Celerity, Extreme Metamagic Reducers) while getting better bases. I like to think it balances out, especially since it's much easier for fighters/barbarians to be the best at what they do, instead of being outclassed whenever the wizard polymorphs into a hydra, even if the wizard is far more versatile

All that being said, I like these changes. They're simple, effective, and improve upon the combat options of fighting classes. Some things I would change:

Improved Feint: I'm a bit tentative on letting it last until your next turn, and I would make it the end of your turn at best. A whole round of free sneak attacks for the whole party can be brutal and cheesy with the right party. I would even keep the limitation that they're only flat-footed against the feinter to prevent one character from basically becoming the rogue's Feint Bitch.

At the same time, I'd suggest removing Combat Expertise. It's not incredibly helpful in the hands of classes that would most benefit from Feinting, and rogues are already feat taxed as it is...

Improved Trip: Maybe make it half damage on a successful trip, otherwise it gets to the point where you have no reason to do anything other than trip against a foe who could be reasonably affected.

[Larkas]

Thanks for the input, Blisstake! As said before, these are merely the result rolling the Greater line of feats into the respective Improved feats. That being said:

Improved Feint: You do have a point there. Anyways, however it's put, I think Imp. Feint isn't doing it's job, that is, leaving the opponent open to effects like Sneak Attack by the user. I think a better fix would be to make the feint attempt to use an attack action. That way, you could feint as part of a Full Attack, better enjoying the opening by following with more attacks. This way, the Rogue would have a better reason to take this feat. Maybe wrap up saying that the attempt uses up your lowest attack bonus, or that succeeding in the feint allows you to immediately make a melee attack against the opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the feint attempt and you're set.

Improved Trip: I know what you mean. Maybe it's why tripping was so overused in 3.5? However, the original writing isn't much good (opponent provoking AoO if you succeed), since you'll be expending an AoO you could be using for when the opponent would get up, anyways. You could say that successfully tripping makes the opponent provoke a free AoO from you, but that's basically saying what the 3.5 version said in other words.

[Waker]

I'd support the dropping Combat Expertise as a requirement for those feats. And making Improved Feint a Swift action that lasts until the end of your turn would hardly be the most game-breaking thing in the world.