lvl 2 party vs Roc

[Elvenoutrider]

Ok so for my group of advanced players, I wanted to give them a chance to really use their brains to fight off a really powerful monster. After their first dungeon the bbeg is going to send a mutated roc after their castle to terrorize them before his armies attack. The pcs will have to repel it. They will have the opportunity to recruit a dragon later to finish it off but this will require them to leave their keep which is not an ideal option since it will return to terrorize them every night. Assuming a balanced party composition (composed of at least one tank, skillmonkey, spellcaster, and healer) how would you confront this if you were in their shoes. The keep is moderately sized and they have about 50 1st lvl warriors under them along with a team of healers at the temple).

I'm asking because I want to see if there is any obvious or really silly plan Im overlooking because atm all I can think of is hunkering down and firing arrows until it leaves, illusion magic, or tricking it into eating a large quantity of explosives (This is a rather common plan with my group)

Also simply sacrificing livestock wont work since for reasons that will be known later, it is only interested in intelligent prey

Go crazy

[Invader]

That's a really hard challenge for a lvl 2 party. Short of some cheese I think their best bet would be to try and trick it into a indefensible position on the ground and poison it or collapse the side of a mountain on it.

Other than that I can't really think of any obviously easy ways for them to kill it.

[killem2]

That's a TPK.


My party of level 2s, which had a cleric, wizard with a bear cub, ranger with elven hound (I allowed it), rogue and a fighter with a riding dog, was in serious danger of losing to one shadow.

Just one. And it is A cr3.


A roc will hit, I would bet almost the entire time. And when it hits, it is going to hurt. If it full attacks, forget about it, that person is dead.

Otherwise, if they have a full fort of people to help them, I don't think the exp is going to be worth a damn is it?

I mean, it might work, but if you direct that thing at any of your part members they are not gonna be happy.

[Vizzerdrix]

Darkenbeasts, if they can get enough scrolls of the spell to create them. catapults, Fell drain Thunderhead and black lotus poison are cheap and easy to use as well.

Oh. And Shapesand, the 100g class feature :smallsmile:

[Lonely Tylenol]

OK, so the "tank" (ugh) is a Barbarian with the Run feat.

The skill monkey is a Beguiler, the spellcaster is a Sorcerer, the healer is a Cleric with the Celerity domain.

The Beguiler, Sorcerer and Cleric cast Expeditious Retreat on themselves, and the four GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE.

(NOTE: Even with these speed bonuses, without some other non-enhancement form of speed bonus, the Roc still has a better fly speed than their land speed, and CAN catch up to them. This will simply allow them to outrun all the weaker NPCs.)

Any party unoptimized to believe tanks exist and in-combat healing is relevant is NOT optimized to handle an 18 HD Roc at level 2. Either your idea of what an "advanced" party would likely do is horribly wrong (and the idea of a level 2 "tank" is yours, and not theirs), or your perception of the level 2 party's players as "advanced" is horribly wrong (and they would try to tank a Roc at level 2 or something). Either way, there is a HUGE disconnect between you and your players in terms of optimization level and understandings therein, and a TPK is likely.

Granted, there is probably a way. Hundreds of GiantITP members with time to dive through books and build characters completely from scratch entirely to counter a Roc, with Schrödinger's Bag of Holding of unlimited resources, will probably find it. Four people at a table, whose character options are set in stone, thinking completely on the spot with only practical resources at hand probably won't.

"Fire arrows at it" is the closest thing to a viable option that the characters have, but at an average of 4.5 damage per longbow attack, the Roc will die after (on average) 46 successful hits. The average PC at this level, with moderate optimization (good attribute choices, etc), will have +5 to-hit against the Roc. Unless you plan on having ridiculously over-leveled NPCs there to save the day, the to-hit bonuses of the NPCs is going to be worse (between -1 and +2), but will be using light crossbows due to non proficiency issues, depriving them of their move actions (and making them immobile). That means the PCs are going to have to fire well over 100 arrows, on average, to kill the thing, and the NPCs will have to combine their efforts to fire almost 200 without moving out of the way. The Roc, meanwhile, insta-gibs everything it touches at this level, except maybe a Barbarian or Warblade who rolls well on their second HD. It can also insta-gib multiple enemies at the same time at range due to its full-attack routine and reach. Players could come up with some screwball solution that works better than this, because the math obviously does not favor a solution involving damage of any kind, but again, at a table, it's not at all likely.

I hope the Cleric's god answers prayers.

[Ernir]

Screw clever solutions.

50 warriors with crossbows are likely to kill a Roc in a grindfest. With a +3 on the attack roll (+1 BAB, +1 dex, +1 weapon focus), a warrior has a 35% chance of dealing an average of 4.5 damage to the Roc (not counting crits) per round. Hence, 50 warriors manning the walls deal an average of 78.7 damage to the Roc in the first round of it being within one range increment. The Roc can not kill more than three warriors per round. It is likely to be dead by round three if it doesn't just fly away.

Whatever the PCs do after telling the warriors to stand their friggin' ground is irrelevant. The holy guy might cast Bless on the whole group when the Roc is in sight, after that they might as well pick up bows with the rest of the mooks.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Screw clever solutions.

50 warriors with crossbows are likely to kill a Roc in a grindfest. With a +3 on the attack roll (+1 BAB, +1 dex, +1 weapon focus), a warrior has a 35% chance of dealing an average of 4.5 damage to the Roc (not counting crits) per round. Hence, 50 warriors manning the walls deal an average of 78.7 damage to the Roc in the first round of it being within one range increment. The Roc can not kill more than three warriors per round. It is likely to be dead by round three if it doesn't just fly away.

Whatever the PCs do after telling the warriors to stand their friggin' ground is irrelevant. The holy guy might cast Bless on the whole group when the Roc is in sight, after that they might as well pick up bows with the rest of the mooks.

Or just run, as nothing they do could possibly sway the battle on its own and death is a certainty if the Roc casts so much as a sideways glance in their direction.

[Spuddles]

Or just run, as nothing they do could possibly sway the battle on its own and death is a certainty if the Roc casts so much as a sideways glance in their direction.

It's a trivial encounter for a party of wizards or sorcerers.

Buy some scrolls of Rays of Stupidity (SpC, lvl 2, 1d4+1 int damage, no save). As soon as one lands, the Roc is unconscious for 24 hours.

Always, always, always look to see if you can ray of stupidity spam something to death.

[Voyager_I]

Stay inside and shoot arrows at it. It has no ranged attacks and an AC that even the Warriors can hit. Anybody who goes outside will die, given that it hits them on a 2 for a minimum of 14 damage. Still, they have a castle to hide in, so it doesn't sound like that big a problem for them as long as they don't leave things outside at night.

Is there anything less defensible that the players are also responsible for protecting? Something like a farmstead attached to the castle?

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's a trivial encounter for a party of wizards or sorcerers.

Buy some scrolls of Rays of Stupidity. As soon as one lands, the Roc is unconscious for 24 hours.

Always, always, always look to see if you can ray of stupidity spam something to death.

This is true, if a Roc capable of specifically gunning for intelligent prey described in the OP still somehow has animal intelligence (which lacks internal consistency). However, I doubt the OP was going to change its INT score to account for this inconsistency in attitudes, so yeah, that would do it.

Now, all the PCs need to do is retroactively take levels in Wizard and Sorcerer (since their characters are already built) and buy enough scrolls of Ray of Stupidity to guarantee success (three should do; this part is actually easy enough if the DM isn't preempting their strategy and is giving them time to prepare for this combat with purchases, although the DM *is* asking us what things to avoid, so we may have just doomed his party).

EDIT: Which brings me, again, to the problem of a party without the foresight necessary to preempt the DM that we, as people who the DM is specifically revealing the problem to with no time pressures: if given enough people and enough time, with the best selection of people available, someone will say "let's Ray of Stupidity the animal", but the party might not have "enough people" or "enough time".

[u-b]

Everyone sit calm behind the walls and cast Charm Animal until it fails, naturally. That is, unless the bird just drops crags from a mile up in the sky.

[Elvenoutrider]

The castle is essentially a large fortified town with a keep. It is full of wooden buildings that civilians will be hiding in. The Roc is strong enough to break down the wooden buildings but wont be able to get it into the reinforced ones. Basically the pcs will have to try and chase it off so it doesn't kill their civilians or break their war assets. On one hand the small town gives them a lot of cover and room to improvise. On the other it prevents them from bringing the entire firepower of the keep to bear in one turn. The night of the first attack the pcs will be taken by surprise. After that they will be able to prepare. The keep also has four turret mounted ballistas and a group of catapults they can use.

[Spuddles]

This is true, if a Roc capable of specifically gunning for intelligent prey described in the OP still somehow has animal intelligence (which lacks internal consistency). However, I doubt the OP was going to change its INT score to account for this inconsistency in attitudes, so yeah, that would do it.

Now, all the PCs need to do is retroactively take levels in Wizard and Sorcerer (since their characters are already built) and buy enough scrolls of Ray of Stupidity to guarantee success (three should do; this part is actually easy enough if the DM isn't preempting their strategy).

I figured the roc was mind controlled. If it does have a buffed int score, it becomes a little more hairy. If the arcane caster didn't ban enchantment, and the skillmonkey took ranks in UMD, then it's a relatively trivial encounter, depending on the int score of the roc. If the int score is >4, an invisible familiar with a touch of idiocy shared with it (again, scroll it), helps.

The problem here is access to a 3rd level wizard's shop. WBL shouldn't be an issue, given that NPC dudes will die if they don't pitch in their monthly wages.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The castle is essentially a large fortified town with a keep. It is full of wooden buildings that civilians will be hiding in. The Roc is strong enough to break down the wooden buildings but wont be able to get it into the reinforced ones. Basically the pcs will have to try and chase it off so it doesn't kill their civilians or break their war assets. On one hand the small town gives them a lot of cover and room to improvise. On the other it prevents them from bringing the entire firepower of the keep to bear in one turn. The night of the first attack the pcs will be taken by surprise. After that they will be able to prepare. The keep also has four turret mounted ballistas and a group of catapults they can use.

Ah, there you are.

Questions regarding Spuddles and my exchange:
- What is the INT score of the Roc?
- What is the *actual* party composition, as class levels go?
- What is the UMD score of each party member?
- Does this keep have a third-level Wizard with scrolls to sell?
- What do you think are the odds that the PCs will figure this out?
- Would you actually let them if they did?

[Voyager_I]

The castle is essentially a large fortified town with a keep. It is full of wooden buildings that civilians will be hiding in. The Roc is strong enough to break down the wooden buildings but wont be able to get it into the reinforced ones. Basically the pcs will have to try and chase it off so it doesn't kill their civilians or break their war assets. On one hand the small town gives them a lot of cover and room to improvise. On the other it prevents them from bringing the entire firepower of the keep to bear in one turn. The night of the first attack the pcs will be taken by surprise. After that they will be able to prepare. The keep also has four turret mounted ballistas and a group of catapults they can use.

In this case, the obvious solution will be effective; evacuate everyone into the fortified castle and don't go outside. The ballistas and catapults likely aren't worth using if they leave the operators exposed; potshots with hand weapons will suffice to drive the beast away if it can't retaliate.

The real problem will be on the first night. The damage inflicted will depend largely on how well-prepared the town is to deal with this sort of emergency. A disorganized response will lead to significant casualties and a potential TPK, since the Roc cannot be engaged directly without the support of a few dozen guard crossbowmen. However, if the town has a clear protocol for evacuating into the keep, then much of its initial damage should be mitigated without needless losses to the garrison.

Once the players know what they're up against, there's not much the Roc can really do to them by itself.


This is all, of course, assuming the players don't just Save-or-Lose it to death.

[Elvenoutrider]

And this is why I asked around in advance. That whole ray of stupidity vs an int 3 creature is one hell of an encounter finisher. I don't know the party composition yet because the campaign hasn't started yet. I'm currently writing the story as it comes to me. The keep does have a 5th level wizard who may or may not be there at the time based on the party actions. He would not have ray of stupidity scrolls lying around at the time for obvious reasons.

I don't know if the party would think of it but if they did I would have the roc fly off for 24 hours and consider it a temporary solution

[Voyager_I]

I don't know if the party would think of it but if they did I would have the roc fly off for 24 hours and consider it a temporary solution

As a player, that sort of "your attack is ineffective due to the demands of my plot!" response would make me very angry, and there's no reason to resort to it. You have plenty of time to come up with a solution other than DM Fiat.

You've said yourself that the Roc is in the service of the BBEG. Have him put a Ring of Counterspells or two on the Roc, loaded with Ray of Stupidity. If they go for it, then their spell is visibly countered. You get the result you want, only your party knows they've been countered by a nemesis who's clever enough to compensate for obvious weaknesses instead of simply being forced onto the rails.

[Airanath]

Usually when I want to do things like this, I forget the books and the CR system, and just do a scenic battle.
You want it to be hard, so its "AC" is whatever number the players will have only a 75% chance of hitting (avarage Attack bonus, not highest or lowest).
Its HP doesn't matter, this is not a fight to be won, they just are stalling for time right now (and next time it comes, it will be healed anyway).
That many warriors and a fort to help? Make it so the warriors mostly have Profession(siege engineer) and place a lot of catapults on the field, the battle is now a Control Point battle. The catapults damage the Roc, the players, not really, the Roc would try and either destroy it, or kill the crew working on it (even with its animal inteligence, it know that thing showering it with rocks is the real danger, even better if its awakened or being mentally directed, just don't overdo with strategy). The players job is to get a few hits in to fend off/protect/heal the catapults.
If the Roc needs to do damage, it deals enough to scare them from further hits, but not enough to kill a player (but it always kills warrior, give them a fear of death, roll dice just so they think the thing is really a overpowered CR, lure them into coming into the world, more roleplay, less rollplay, hopefully they won't know the roc CR to metagame and start telling you off, or if they do, they just board the roleplay wagon and enjoy the things they can do). How long it takes to fend off the attack depends on how long you need to make the players worried, maybe two rounds? Maybe 10? Depends on what they do, how they try to help and etc.
E.g: The group lets the catapults take a beating and just hide/try to fire with bows. In that case, the battle takes as long as the roc needs to destroy all catapults, ravage the crews that are running for cover, and drop some rocks around town to deal damage.
The group helps protect the catapults, even if risky for their lifes, the wizard hides some with his silent images, the cleric heals the dying crew, the fighter tries to distract the creature or even fire catapults himself with the rogue? The battle takes just a few rounds, the players felt the danger, they helped the town, and did their part, maybe some casualties happen, but nothing that hits them directly.
The high CR Roc, well, let the players fight it when they DO have the power to harm it, and finish it. Or their ally since you plan to give them one.
Not all in a roleplaying game is the players running the battle, sometimes they are also part of the bigger picture, and instead of a battle, you want a scene.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Oh, I thought this was a campaign alteady in motion?

In this case, unless the PCs have enough time to craft it in advance (at least one day if it is a known spell, longer otherwise) or find a cooperative Wizard who can do it (if the level 5 Wizard described doesn't cooperate or isn't there), the best solution is to hole up in their well-fortified keep and simply wait for the thing to go away, or take potshots from fortified positions within the keep, like small windows.

If the party is smart enough to get that far, your biggest problem is going to be making the PCs feel relevant or capable of contributing at all; there is no reason to risk certain death being a hero, here, when there are enough NPCs to do it while the PCs are tucked away safely inside the keep, waiting for the outcome. I mean, if the level 5 Wizard is there and he knows Ray of Stupidity, then the party doesn't even need to UMD a scroll; they just need to ask the Wizard to prepare it himself. If they don't have a day's notice (which makes sense, if the animal is just spontaneously attacking), they hole up for the night and ask him to prepare it the next morning. It becomes less "instant TPK" material and more "player irrelevance", which might put them off, but that might be the point--that there are bigger fishes in the world, and they've got a way to go--and it is atmospheric.

[killem2]

If I may suggest, you could have a small flying enemy for your party, maybe a 2-3 zombie templated giant owls?

Again, I don't really know your party well, but you could also go up a notch and go to ghost templated.

[Larkas]

As a player, that sort of "your attack is ineffective due to the demands of my plot!" response would make me very angry, and there's no reason to resort to it. You have plenty of time to come up with a solution other than DM Fiat.

Exactly. If you don't want the players to have an actual shot at winning the encounter, Airanath's advice is as good as any. If rules won't make a difference, might as well go the cinematic route.

[caden_varn]

One thing to consider is how to make sure the PCs know it is going to come back the next night. After the second night they should have worked it out, but until it returns, they may just think they have driven it off for good.

So they may need to be able to hold out for 2 nights without preparation. Probably won't make a great deal of difference, but will drag things out a bit longer than necessary.

[Prime32]

A group of crossbow-using guards might be able to kill the roc if they have teamwork benefits (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4862.msg68838#msg68838) and buffs from low-level DFI bards/marshals/dragon shamans.

[Killer Angel]

I'm asking because I want to see if there is any obvious or really silly plan Im overlooking because atm all I can think of is hunkering down and firing arrows until it leaves, illusion magic, or tricking it into eating a large quantity of explosives (This is a rather common plan with my group)

Also simply sacrificing livestock wont work since for reasons that will be known later, it is only interested in intelligent prey

Do they have explosives? otherwise, all they need is to trick the roc near a grain silo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlE9ZRNe2Z4).
The bait must be intelligent? no problem, we'll use an arcane caster, buffed with false life / bear's endurance, and positioned in a way to block the flyby attack.
When the roc arrive, mirror image (prepared action to act before the beast) and also an obscuring mist (by an ally). It's likely the caster won't be hit by the roc's attack.
Then the caster will run away at 4x (again, between the mirror and the mist he should be safe, anyway, he should survive a single hit).
Then, an archer will shoot a firing arrow at the silo.

[Elvenoutrider]

Do they have explosives? otherwise, all they need is to trick the roc near a grain silo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlE9ZRNe2Z4).
The bait must be intelligent? no problem, we'll use an arcane caster, buffed with false life / bear's endurance, and positioned in a way to block the flyby attack.
When the roc arrive, mirror image (prepared action to act before the beast) and also an obscuring mist (by an ally). It's likely the caster won't be hit by the roc's attack.
Then the caster will run away at 4x (again, between the mirror and the mist he should be safe, anyway, he should survive a single hit).
Then, an archer will shoot a firing arrow at the silo.

This monster is not plot central by any means. I have no need to keep it alive past this scene. I just know that if the party took it down with one ray of stupidity spell they would enjoy it as much as I would, which is to say not at all. This is why I would allow it as a temporary solution. No one is going to enjoy the fearsome monster being ended by one spell from one character

The plan quoted above actually requires a good amount of thinking and teamwork, and entails a decent amount of risk. This means that in enacting it, the party would actually be able to enjoy the scene. This is the sort of plan I would expect from my party.

That said if anyone else knows any other kind of spell or tactic, like the ray of stupidity, that would end the encounter quickly, Id like to hear it.

[Red_Dog]

Always, always, always look to see if you can ray of stupidity spam something to death.

GOLD. Nice works Spuddles = ]

Funny enough, that and mind cripple made me not use too many animals[magical beasts are ok ish as they have "average"[I re-roll stats, but I don't make smart animals/vermin/etc. unless fluff lets me, que magical beasts] of 6->12 Int] at all in my campaign as its just to easy to bring a hulking behemoth to its knees.

P.S. From other more sane solutions, that do not involve spells[1% maximum heh, besides massed firepower], trying to take feats that let you hitch a ride on the rock for some thrilling heroic "Shadow of the Colossus" action is always cool = ]

Dungeonscape has "Hammer and Piton" which is VERY easy one to get as you need Str15 & Climb 3 and that's it ^^. Arguably the Roc can't attack you if you stuck a Piton in its back and not belly. Just jump on it from like a tower[ready action] and make that touch attack! ^^
*just have feather fall at the ready in case you miss the jump]*

Finally a Task worthy of a Barbarian to shine in! Its reckless, cool and actually can work wonders even if you just keep on attacking it while it flies in confusion! ^^

[Fyermind]

Meet Al the animal killer, a level 1 Strongheart halfling sorcerer using the elite array.

HP: 4
AC: 14
Abilities: 6, 16, 10, 13, 12 15
Skills: Spot +3, hide +9, profession (executioner) +5
Feats: Precocious apprentice, Arcane Mastery
Spells Known:
0-dancing lights, whatever you want
1- True strike, silent image
2- Ray of stupidity
Weapons: Executioner's axe

Al makes a silent image of a hay bail, disbelieves it, and hides in it waiting for the roc. When he sees it, he attracts it's attention with dancing lights, he then casts true strike, followed by ray of stupidity. Due to arcane mastery he can take 10 on the DC 8 caster level check to cast it, and will have a +24 bonus to hit. The spell will deal a minimum of 2 points of int damage. He then performs an executioner's strike with the axe, and keeps retrying until he succeeds or it dies from damage.

IF your players can build characters for the encounter, it will be trivial. Just like any other encounter they specifically design their characters for. Otherwise it is simply a bad idea.

[Killer Angel]

IF your players can build characters for the encounter, it will be trivial.

The point is that they cannot. It's a campaign and this will be an unespected "encounter", as said by the OP:


I don't know the party composition yet because the campaign hasn't started yet. I'm currently writing the story as it comes to me.

And anyway, it's already clear that ray of stupidity is a win button for this challenge.
Actually, the OP needs to know 2 things:
1 - if there are other "killer moves" ala Ray of stupidity.
2 - if a standard group can kill the roc with simple planning, using basic resources (hence my suggestion of the grain silo)

[Spuddles]

Lesser shivering touch is a first level spell from Frostburn that you can have delivered by a familiar. 1d6 dex damage. If 1d6 dex damage from a first level spell wasn't so OP, I'd actually consider letting them do this, as it would take them a while to kill it, and a familiar or something would probably die.

With a will save of only +9, a druid spamming Charm Animal would get a new animal friend. Then the Druid could use speak with animal and interrogate it, or even get it to perform some sort of task.

[nedz]

If your intent is to use this monster to cause terror then it should do things like:


Turn up unannounced, grab some commoner, fly off with them and eat them. For the terror effect to work its important that the body is never found.
Fly around in the distance (about a mile off) and cause a panic.


Intelligent players will use the cover of the buildings and archery, they may even try things like harpoons, lassos or nets.

If I were them I would try some Silent Images on it. A net appearing whilst its flying might do some falling damage, since it is dumb.

Ed: If they do manage to net it, by any means, then 50 archers will kill it eventually.

It is unlikely that they will build their entire character just to deal with one encounter.

[Killer Angel]

mmm... with Summon Undead IV we have the infamous Allip. What kind of undead can we summon at lowest levels?

EDIT: just checked. Nah, nothing good...

[Spuddles]

mmm... with Summon Undead IV we have the infamous Allip. What kind of undead can we summon at lowest levels?

Troll skeletons and other junk.

IMO, Charm Animal is the biggest realistic threat here, given that it's core, 1st level, and a druid only needs to re-prepare his spells. Druid's not that often played, though, in my experience.

[Voyager_I]

This monster is not plot central by any means. I have no need to keep it alive past this scene. I just know that if the party took it down with one ray of stupidity spell they would enjoy it as much as I would, which is to say not at all. This is why I would allow it as a temporary solution. No one is going to enjoy the fearsome monster being ended by one spell from one character.

I agree. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you allow your players to potentially murder the Roc with a single spell.

Rather, we are saying that since you are aware of this potential problem and have plenty of time to prepare, you should come up with a solution that doesn't involve having your player's spells not do what the rules say they do with no warning. That is very rarely an acceptable solution.

[Spuddles]

I agree. I don't think anyone is suggesting that you allow your players to potentially murder the Roc with a single spell.

Rather, we are saying that since you are aware of this potential problem and have plenty of time to prepare, you should come up with a solution that doesn't involve having your player's spells not do what the rules say they do with no warning. That is very rarely an acceptable solution.

Low level ability damaging effects should either come with saves, or bumped up 4 or 5 spell levels, in my opinion, anyway.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This monster is not plot central by any means. I have no need to keep it alive past this scene. I just know that if the party took it down with one ray of stupidity spell they would enjoy it as much as I would, which is to say not at all. This is why I would allow it as a temporary solution. No one is going to enjoy the fearsome monster being ended by one spell from one character

I don't know about this. The DM once threw a Cleric who animated the skeleton of a T-Rex at us as a mini-boss encounter. The T-Rex was described as being immensely tough and clearly we were supposed to defeat it in the "hit it until dead" fashion, which would have sucked as many of the people in the group had not optimized for weapon damage at all, nobody had bludgeoning weapons, and only one actual damage-dealer among us had enough to overcome its DR and do meaningful damage (I was technically a blaster, but prepared almost exclusively buff spells at this level).

Fortunately, I prepared Command Undead that day, which is a no-save Dominate Monster lite against unintelligent undead (with a save for intelligent undead). I walked up in front of the giant T-Rex, past the plate-wearing Cleric, the Fighter and the Bardbarian (against the protests of each), pointed my finger at it, and turned it. Effortlessly. I then commanded it to eat its old master on its initiative. It did (the Cleric failed his level check to rebuke, and was just torn to pieces in the next round). I felt incredibly clever for having prepared the right solution for the right problem, and the party enjoyed the spectacle of the scrawny robed kid with huge glasses staring down a T-Rex skeleton and winning, and the poetic irony of the bad guy being killed by his own Unstoppable Monster. The only person whose feathers were ruffled was the DM, who clearly wanted his skeletal T-Rex to wreak a lot of havoc to a lot of people (something I was intent on avoiding in-character, as a coward with strong survival instincts, and out-of-character for all the obvious reasons), and got combative when it didn't.

Now, if an NPC casts Ray of Stupidity on the Roc, it will feel like a spectator sport. Which it is.

In any case, if you don't want the Roc to be something that is undone by Ray of Stupidity, make it a Dragon. Ideally, one with lower Hit Dice or without a breath attack (the latter means reaching outside of core). Or perhaps a Wyvern (with however many Hit Dice you please, including those of the size-increasing variety). Both have the "flying stronghold assailant" quotient handled, and target more intelligent creatures as per their own fluff. Then the PCs don't have to question why their encounter-ender was stopped by the Roc having arbitrarily higher Hit Points, or a ring of counterspelling or something of the equivalent.

[Spuddles]

Good Advice

This man has good advice.

Though using Charm Animal on it would be awesome. Use it as a mobile artillery platform for that invading army.

[Vladislav]

Ok so for my group of advanced players, I wanted to give them a chance to really use their brains to fight off a really powerful monster. After their first dungeon the bbeg is going to send a mutated roc after their castle to terrorize them before his armies attack. The pcs will have to repel it. They will have the opportunity to recruit a dragon later to finish it off but this will require them to leave their keep which is not an ideal option since it will return to terrorize them every night. Assuming a balanced party composition (composed of at least one tank, skillmonkey, spellcaster, and healer) how would you confront this if you were in their shoes. The keep is moderately sized and they have about 50 1st lvl warriors under them along with a team of healers at the temple).

I'm asking because I want to see if there is any obvious or really silly plan Im overlooking because atm all I can think of is hunkering down and firing arrows until it leaves, illusion magic, or tricking it into eating a large quantity of explosives (This is a rather common plan with my group)

Also simply sacrificing livestock wont work since for reasons that will be known later, it is only interested in intelligent prey

Go crazyA roc has an armor class of 17. Simple math shows that a 1st level warrior with a crossbow will hit 25% of the time. So 50 1st level warrior can lay quite a damage on it, removing 50d6/4 = 36 hit points in one volley. And since the Roc conveniently lacks Cleave, he can't kill more than 3 per round (4, if he's withing reach when they are reloading and can make an Attack of Opportunity). Even if he uses Flyby attack, they still get a volley per flyover.

I may be missing something, but it seems to be that even the most basic strategy of placing 50 warriors on the castle walls and having them fire crossbows is sufficient to down the Roc, or at least inflict enough damage to make it flee. Of course, many of the 50 will die in the process, but hey, war.

[Voyager_I]

A roc has an armor class of 17. Simple math shows that a 1st level warrior with a crossbow will hit 25% of the time. So 50 1st level warrior can lay quite a damage on it, removing 50d6/4 = 36 hit points in one volley. And since the Roc conveniently lacks Cleave, he can't kill more than 3 per round (4, if he's withing reach when they are reloading and can make an Attack of Opportunity). Even if he uses Flyby attack, they still get a volley per flyover.

I may be missing something, but it seems to be that even the most basic strategy of placing 50 warriors on the castle walls and having them fire crossbows is sufficient to down the Roc, or at least inflict enough damage to make it flee. Of course, many of the 50 will die in the process, but hey, war.

Simply trading with it isn't recommended; so long as it manages to escape, you will be trading lives for hit points. The latter are much more easily replenished.

[Larkas]

Lonely Tylenol gave a terrific piece of advice: replace the roc for a wyvern and you don't have to worry about cheap shots at all.

[Spuddles]

Simply trading with it isn't recommended; so long as it manages to escape, you will be trading lives for hit points. The latter are much more easily replenished.

Net firing ballistas and tanglefoot catapult ammunition? Giant harpoons?

[Voyager_I]

Net firing ballistas and tanglefoot catapult ammunition? Giant harpoons?

Certainly worth investigating, but none of them require there to ever be a moment when the monster goes rampaging through your exposed soldiers.

[Roguenewb]

I'm pretty sure your players have exactly two options here: 1)Things you consider "cheap" like RoS and lesser Shivering Touch or having the NPCs do it, and 2) Dying. There is no fair, well costed way for a level 2 party to handle a Roc. There just isn't.

In the insanely easy ways to beat it category: Quaal's Feather Token: Tree. Ready an action and cast it directly into the charging Roc's path. It should do fatal damage. Go look up the rules for like ship collisions, I believe its like 40d6 to each of the tree and the bird, so....fun times all around. Give it to a Synchronicty psion so you don't even have to worry about readying the right action.

[animewatcha]

Roc has touch as of 8, but forst save of 18. In accordance with Shax's equipment paranoia thread.


Aboleth Mucus
Price: 20 GP
Weight: 1#
(Savage Species p. 46)
This is one of the cheapest and deadliest poisons in the game, although not actually a poison so there are no rules to check and see if you accidentally poison yourself. Thrown as a grenade-like weapon, so it can hit one creature with a ranged touch attack (no splash effect). If the creature fails a Fort save DC 19, it loses the ability to breathe air for 3 hours. A creature can hold it's breath for a number of rounds equal to twice its Constitution score. The creature essentially has that many rounds to find someone who can cast water breathing or air breathing. Delay poison and neutralize poison won't help (it's not a poison), dispel magic won't help (it's non-magical), deep breath (Spell Compendium) won't work (it fills your lungs with air, but you can't breathe air), sticking your head in a bucket of water won't help (the mucus does not confer the ability to breathe water), and there may be a good argument that a heal spell won't work, either (unable to breathe is not one of the conditions listed in the spell description). Once the creature fails a Con check, the creature starts to suffocate and falls unconscious, and two rounds after that it dies. So while it may take a little longer than poison (2-3 minutes), getting hit with this stuff is pretty much a death sentence for most creatures.

Load up on 5 billion mucuses and throw. The Roc will roll a 1 sometime. Have it take effect, then run like hell.

[Gavinfoxx]

1. Cast Obscuring Mist
2. Hide under the Wagon.


That's what a level 2 or so party did when a bunch of Wyverns came along. Which was entirely the single most appropriate thing to do.

If you want to actually take out Rocs at low levels... you'll need ray of stupidity. LOTS AND LOTS of ray of stupidities.

[animewatcha]

Why? Roc has to 'melee' and has no SR. Touch AC is 8.

[Gavinfoxx]

In case people get scared, or miss, or the roc gets initiative and eats them first, or people fail their UMD rolls, etc. etc. etc.

[Voyager_I]

Why? Roc has to 'melee' and has no SR. Touch AC is 8.

If you have exactly one way to win a fight, and that one way has less than a 100% chance of success, you definitely want to have more than one try.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea you need multiple people casting multiple rays of stupidity to overcome this...

[Invader]

A druid, bard, or cleric with the animal domain and speak with animals and a char with a decent skill might just be able to intimidate, bluff, etc. it away from the castle.

Or sometimes just flat out asking it to leave works. Explain that it can keep attacking you and get injured or killed in the process or can go kill mountain goats somewhere and be perfectly happy. It has a high enough wisdom to understand that.