Build ideas - smooth-talker [3.5e]

[SymPhoenix]

Hello, all! This is my first real bid for help in the Playground, so I'm going to try and make as much sense as possible.

I'm usually my gaming group's DM - I tend to be the teacher, the one who helps other people learn, then they either stick with me, or move on to more challenging/different DMs. One of my players, noticing how little I get to play, has offered to DM a campaign so I can play some. I'm looking for some ways to play a smooth-talker, much like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI. All books from 3.5e and homebrew are welcome, save for psionics and Tome of Battle. Starting at level 1, she's said that as long as you bring it to her beforehand, she'll consider just about anything.

The character I have in mind is a good-natured scoundrel - he cons people, yes, but donates a portion of his earnings to charities, or hospitals, or what have you. A bit of roleplaying that I've come up with is a typical 'heist' - he challenges rich noblemen to some kind of game of chance or skill, and plays fair, or nudges things in his favor just slightly. He wins, gets his winnings, donates ten percent or whatever to the nearest church of Pelor, then takes the rest for himself.

I'm open to MANY different ideas, race and class and such, as long as it keeps this same feel. I like to have a variety of choices, so keep 'em coming!

EDIT: Link fixed.

[INoKnowNames]

I'm sure these guys can build you the best smooth talking, gambling, scoundrelest character ever. Still, since no one else has said it, I'll go ahead and ask: have you looked at the Bard yet?

Between being an excellent character to focus Charisma on (fueling all those social skills and your spell casting), having good spell casting (for the sake of buffs or social skills or anything), actually having a decent skill list (beaten by only a couple of classes) with the skill points to back it up...

Honestly, do I need to keep going? Bard sounds like a pretty darn good fit. I'd also consider Rogue, and if you can get Dungeonscape, Factotum. But Bard is definitely the quintesential smooth-talker. And it's good at it.

[JadePhoenix]

I just wanted to say I'm happy to have a new phoenix in the playground. :smallsmile:

[Gwendol]

I second Bard. Smooth-talking is essentially hard-wired into the class with it's high reliance on CHA, social skills and skill points to boot, and a spell list to even further enhance that.
Another option would be a beguiler, with their focus on illusions and trickery they can also take the role of con man or trickster, although they don't always have to be very charismatic.

[Telonius]

For the first three levels:
Bard1/Warlock1/Binder1

Bard for the plethora of skill points. Warlock for Beguiling Influence (+6 untyped bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate). Binder for Naberius, which will let you take rushed diplomacy at no penalty, and take 10 on diplomacy.

After that, take Bard until you want to PrC out. (Sublime Chord is usually a good option).

Beguiler would also be a good substitute for Bard, as Gwendol mentioned.

[Elfinor]

Only one original idea:

A class feature I will never stop plugging for its hilarity value is the Swashbuckler's Seduction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x), gained at Level 4. Maximize that Bluff skill and start asking your DM which characters find yours physically attractive:smalltongue:

Since ToB is off the table, I'd recommend using the Daring Outlaw feat. This allows Rogue and Swashbuckler to stack for the purposes of Sneak Attack, so you can have a nearly full BAB (Swashbuckler 16/Rogue 4) and full Rogue Sneak Attack. Grab the Arcane Stunt Alternate Class Feature for the Swashbuckler (PHBII). There are a few ways to get Sneak Attack on normally-immune creatures, only one I can think of at the moment is the Rogue ACF in Dungeonscape. Taking the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny) enables you to keep increasing your Sleight of Hand as a class skill for cheating at games. You may also want to look into Skill Tricks, from Complete Scoundrel.

This build probably benefits more from high INT than high CHA.

[SymPhoenix]

I'm sure these guys can build you the best smooth talking, gambling, scoundrelest character ever. Still, since no one else has said it, I'll go ahead and ask: have you looked at the Bard yet?

Between being an excellent character to focus Charisma on (fueling all those social skills and your spell casting), having good spell casting (for the sake of buffs or social skills or anything), actually having a decent skill list (beaten by only a couple of classes) with the skill points to back it up...

Honestly, do I need to keep going? Bard sounds like a pretty darn good fit. I'd also consider Rogue, and if you can get Dungeonscape, Factotum. But Bard is definitely the quintesential smooth-talker. And it's good at it.

The only reason I haven't jumped full-on into Bard is because I'm the type to..let's say, look for more than just PHB. I understand that making an interesting character is not so much in the class, but in the actual character, but I've played bards, and I just don't care for them. Having all of their stuff so spread-out and unfocused on one particular thing always gave me headaches.


Only one original idea:

A class feature I will never stop plugging for its hilarity value is the Swashbuckler's Seduction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x), gained at Level 4. Maximize that Bluff skill and start asking your DM which characters find yours physically attractive:smalltongue:

Since ToB is off the table, I'd recommend using the Daring Outlaw feat. This allows Rogue and Swashbuckler to stack for the purposes of Sneak Attack, so you can have a nearly full BAB (Swashbuckler 16/Rogue 4) and full Rogue Sneak Attack. Grab the Arcane Stunt Alternate Class Feature for the Swashbuckler (PHBII). There are a few ways to get Sneak Attack on normally-immune creatures, only one I can think of at the moment is the Rogue ACF in Dungeonscape. Taking the Able Learner feat (Races of Destiny) enables you to keep increasing your Sleight of Hand as a class skill for cheating at games. You may also want to look into Skill Tricks, from Complete Scoundrel.

This build probably benefits more from high INT than high CHA.

Huh...this one seems somewhat nifty. I've just heard that Swashbuckler is somewhat of a low-tier class.

[Roguenewb]

By itself it is, if you go with Daring Outlaw, it's a solid-to-high tier 4, maybe low tier 3 if you scoop up ways to always get SA on, and take all the good ambush feats.

[VGLordR2]

I would take a one level dip in Binder and Dragonfire Adept. The Binder's Naberius vestige has nice things like making rushed Diplomacy checks without penalty and the ability to take tens on social skills. The Dragonfire Adept has the Beguiling Influence invocation, netting a +6 to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate.

[Quirp]

For later levels you might want to look into PrCs like Fatespinner (CArc) and the Fortune´s Friend (CSco).

A Rogue X/Cleric of Olidammara 1(or another deity of luck)/Fortune´s Friend 5 with a lot of luck feats could be fun to play, if you like to (re)roll a lot of dice.

[JadePhoenix]

So, using everyone's suggestions
Changeling Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 4/Warlock 1.
Invocation: Beguiling Influence
Feats: Bind Vestige, Practiced Binder (for Naberius), Silver Tongue
Silver Tongue is from Dragon 318, updated from Oriental Adventures. You can a) use Diplomacy to change an NPC's attitude towards someone other than you, b) make people fall in love with you once you get their attitude to helpful, c) get Extraordinary versions of good hope, crushing despair and confusion with DCs related to your ranks in Diplomacy

Wait, change-shaping, seductive and smooth-talking...?
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/1697/264050-mystique_large.jpg
Damnit, squeeze some Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger into that and I'd be playing it

[Andorax]

Whichever approach you take, you'll presumably have a good Charisma and a ton of Diplomacy (some sense motive is a good idea as well).

Save a spot, ideally at 6th, to pick up a feat from the PHBII: Master Manipulator.

It's right in line with your concept, regardless of which build you take to get there.

"Well, of course I'm not going to tell you that the duke hired us...oops!"

[SymPhoenix]

I met with the DM today, and she looked at this thread. She said the Beguiler would work the best, and seems really fun. I'm thinking about races, at this point. She's allowing up to LA +1 races with no real issues, though if something else is just a bit over and makes a lot of sense, she'll waive that. So, any creative race ideas? Her setting likes things that look more humanlike, but certainly doesn't outlaw most things. I was thinking aasimar.

[Adrayll]

If you're going beguiler, do a quick google for the Beguiler handbook. And jack your DC's. If you're going to play a class where most of it's strength is out of combat, be damned sure you're good at it. I'd suggest grey elf for race - it gets +INT, no LA. Also, if you're looking to be abjectly terrible at combat, a small return to your spell DC's/spells per day, take a couple of age categories. 2 categories is -3 physicals, +2 mentals.

[Elfinor]

Got the source wrong for Swashbuckler ACF: Arcane Stunt is in Complete Mage.1For a Beguiler? Human is probably the most flexible/powerful option, but since you asked for something creative... I think that Cansin (DR 297) works the best with your concept. They're a type of chaotic planetouched, so yours could have descended from an Eladrin - it keeps the 'Celestial' theme of an Aasimar. +2 INT, CHA and Bluff are its major selling points. They also have an 'aura of randomness' which can be an interesting source of plot hooks (it's a non-mechanical thing).

Beguilers can be neutered by creatures immune to mind-affecting powers - maximize UMD and check if Runestaves (MIC) are available/allowed. An easy way to expand your spell list is via one of Dragon Compendium's bloodline feats. I guess since your DM recommended it you'll probably be alright, unless she's really sadistic:smallbiggrin:

Dipping Spellthief and grabbing the Master Spellthief and Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feats also improves your options.

[SymPhoenix]

Got the source wrong for Swashbuckler ACF: Arcane Stunt is in Complete Mage.1For a Beguiler? Human is probably the most flexible/powerful option, but since you asked for something creative... I think that Cansin (DR 297) works the best with your concept. They're a type of chaotic planetouched, so yours could have descended from an Eladrin - it keeps the 'Celestial' theme of an Aasimar. +2 INT, CHA and Bluff are its major selling points. They also have an 'aura of randomness' which can be an interesting source of plot hooks (it's a non-mechanical thing).

Beguilers can be neutered by creatures immune to mind-affecting powers - maximize UMD and check if Runestaves (MIC) are available/allowed. An easy way to expand your spell list is via one of Dragon Compendium's bloodline feats. I guess since your DM recommended it you'll probably be alright, unless she's really sadistic:smallbiggrin:

Dipping Spellthief and grabbing the Master Spellthief and Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feats also improves your options.

She's just beginning as a DM, so I doubt she'll be THAT sadistic. XD What book is DR? I'm afraid I'm a little influent in the abbreviations.

[VGLordR2]

She's just beginning as a DM, so I doubt she'll be THAT sadistic. XD What book is DR? I'm afraid I'm a little influent in the abbreviations.

Dragon Magazine.