The End of Evangelion

[Dumbledore lives]

So I've been watching this a lot lately, and after re-watching the series for a second time I realized I have a lot of free time. Like far too much, I don't really know what to do with it. So what I've been doing is writing a bunch, just random stuff, but recently I've started an extremely long undertaking. I intend to do a scene by scene analysis with specific focus on any scenes that are particularly messed up.

So anyway I wanted any opinions on the analysis. Before that though I should say it is wrought with spoilers, in that everything Evangelion is treated as if you already know it. This may lead to confusion amongst people who haven't actually seen it but the hope is that it explains enough that even people who have not seen it before can read and understand. I might add a cast of characters filled with spoilers at the very beginning to help with this.

Here it is (http://shapperdash.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/more-evangelion-part-1.html) and more (http://shapperdash.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/end-of-evangelion-part-2-unknown.html).

[PrometheusMFD]

Is it odd that I found the End of Evangelion rather straight forward?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Is it odd that I found the End of Evangelion rather straight forward?

No, it was pretty clear that the whole point of the movie was that the production staff hated their fans.

The analysis seems fairly straightforward, clear-cut and understandable. More than I can say for the show itself at times. Although I wonder if you plan on mentioning Asuka's connection with Shinji (you cover the reverse near the end of part 1). I seem to recall one episode having a very quick moment where her (currently snapping) mind is reeling with various questions, including "Why doesn't he like me?" I always thought that was an interesting thought for her to have.

[PrometheusMFD]

No, it was pretty clear that the whole point of the movie was that the production staff hated their fans.

The analysis seems fairly straightforward, clear-cut and understandable. More than I can say for the show itself at times. Although I wonder if you plan on mentioning Asuka's connection with Shinji (you cover the reverse near the end of part 1). I seem to recall one episode having a very quick moment where her (currently snapping) mind is reeling with various questions, including "Why doesn't he like me?" I always thought that was an interesting thought for her to have.

Well, to be fair, when I watched through the series for the first time I understood what the character archetypes were supposed to be and what issues the director was going through during its production.

I'd say the ending was more an acceptance of recovery combined with horribly blowing the budget.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Well, to be fair, when I watched through the series for the first time I understood what the character archetypes were supposed to be and what issues the director was going through during its production.

I'd say the ending was more an acceptance of recovery combined with horribly blowing the budget.

The show's ending was definitely a budget constraint. I think there's a dvd extra where Shinji calls out the staff on it with "You ran outta ink too, didn't ya, you bastards!" Although I seem to recall hearing that the director was furious with fan reaction to the show's finale and decided to "get back at them" with End of Evangelion.

I never knew what was up with the director until years later, and I saw the show relatively young, so that might be why a lot of it really didn't make much sense to me.

[Eldan]

I never understood the "hate the audience" part.

Yes, it was dark. But could the series really have ended any other way? To me, it made perfect sense to end the world.

[Lord Seth]

I didn't like End of Evangelion, mostly because I just found it boring. The pacing was really off, probably because they had to pad out what was supposed to be two episodes into a feature-length film. I also felt that at the end it just felt unfulfilling.

Still, as Narutaru showed, it could've been a lot worse.

[Tengu_temp]

It is true that Anno grew bitter with the Eva fanbase between the show and End of Eva and decided to give as many Take Thats to it as possible - that's where the infamous scene with Shinji's hand comes from, for example. But the way the events played out in general? It was planned like that from the start. If Evangelion's budget wasn't cut, its original ending would be very similar to End of Eva.

Besides, it's not a downer ending or anything.
Everyone gets turned to tang, yes. But it is explicitly stated that everyone can return to their previous human form if only they desire to, and that all creatures have that capability. Shinji and Asuka are just the first two people who did that. It's also heavily implied that people who died shortly before getting tangified, like Misato, can return back to life that way, and possibly even those who died even before that, like Kaji.

[Brother Oni]

The show's ending was definitely a budget constraint. I think there's a dvd extra where Shinji calls out the staff on it with "You ran outta ink too, didn't ya, you bastards!" Although I seem to recall hearing that the director was furious with fan reaction to the show's finale and decided to "get back at them" with End of Evangelion.

Actually it's a little more complex than just running out of money.

The show was running over schedule, to the point that they were shipping the finished episode to the TV station on the DAY it was being broadcast.

This meant that the station didn't have time to review the episode before sticking it on for broadcast, thus you ended up with a pair of actors having simulated sex off screen on prime time (7pm) TV (Misato and Kaji in episode 19 I think?).

The station got really hammered by the press and various complaint groups, so the executives demanded to see the storyboards for the rest of the season, freaked out even more and demanded that the last two episodes be changed, hence why we got a half arsed ending to the TV show.

[Mauve Shirt]

No, it was pretty clear that the whole point of the movie was that the production staff hated their fans.


I would sig this three times if I had room in my sig. :smallbiggrin:

[Scowling Dragon]

Mostly Im "Meh" with the whole thing. The first half of the show is great with some of the best mecha action ever.

The second half is just intentionally obtuse, bordering on obscurantism which I despise. This wasn't subtle. It was loud and abnoxious, trying to hammer something into me with long boring rants. It just told it very poorly.

But I found the whole ending of Evangelion MAGNIFICENTLY STUPID! Its the type of stupid that competes with Turkish Star Wars for most awesomely convoluted and up its own ass thing ever.

[Eldan]

Why is it convoluted? They hinted at that ending pretty much from the first handful of episodes. It was pretty clear that the apocalypse would be involved in some way.
After all, they went out of their way to stick the Sephiroth everywhere and name everything after various angels.

[Scowling Dragon]

Its how freaking stupid they wernt with the concept.

Robots, powered by mom-souls, soul lazorz, soul shields, and lots of rubbish philosophy.

[Seraph]

Its how freaking stupid they wernt with the concept.

Robots, powered by mom-souls, soul lazorz, soul shields, and lots of rubbish philosophy.

this reeks of Trying Too Hard To Be Above It All.

of course the elements of the series are ridiculous when out of context, any element of any series is ridiculous out-of-context. Did you not catch on to what kind of series this was going to be when they called the giant monster an Angel and it started using eye-beams that made cross-shaped explosions?

[TheLaughingMan]

Still, as Narutaru showed, it could've been a lot worse.

Urgh, Narutaru. Such promise, wasted on needless gore and heavy-handed existentialism.

...Huh. That was terribly ironic.


this reeks of Trying Too Hard To Be Above It All.

of course the elements of the series are ridiculous when out of context, any element of any series is ridiculous out-of-context. Did you not catch on to what kind of series this was going to be when they called the giant monster an Angel and it started using eye-beams that made cross-shaped explosions?

And really, did anyone really tell you Eva was going to be a fun, feel-good super-robot show? Because really, the most prominent meme to come out of the series deals with the surreal naval-contemplating of the final episodes.

[Eldan]

Yeah. I think you could see basically from the first few minutes that this would not be a generic Giant Robot Series. The Impact? Worldwide Climate Change? Angels attacking Earth? Soul-powered robots? That was all there from the beginning.

[Scowling Dragon]

Again, its how serious it takes itself.

Its not that I wanted a happy ending (Even though why not). Its that its just a bad show. Its got this weird crap for the sake of having weird crap. Its not subtle, its loud and obtuse in presentation.

[Tengu_temp]

That is just, like, your opinion man. All that weird crap is one of the reasons why Eva is such a fascinating, if deeply flawed show for me.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Its got this weird crap for the sake of having weird crap. Its not subtle, its loud and obtuse in presentation.

Wow. When you say it like that...it sounds like FLCL. Neat! :smallbiggrin: I gotta get the dvds...

[TheLaughingMan]

Wow. When you say it like that...it sounds like FLCL. Neat!

Well, if you buy the fan-theories, FLCL is pretty much a comedic parallel to Eva, weird coming-of-age story and all. The only reason the theory got as far as it has is that both shows are so weird you can't really put it past Gainax.

[Scowling Dragon]

That is just, like, your opinion man. All that weird crap is one of the reasons why Eva is such a fascinating, if deeply flawed show for me.

Sure. If you love the show, power to you.

Again. If the weird stuff was done well i would have enjoyed it too.

edit:

I like fooly cooly. It was silly and didn't seem to be taking itself too seriously. Also it didn't plop me in front of the author for 10 minutes as he yelled his live views.

[Eldan]

Again, its how serious it takes itself.

Its not that I wanted a happy ending (Even though why not). Its that its just a bad show. Its got this weird crap for the sake of having weird crap. Its not subtle, its loud and obtuse in presentation.

Well, yeah. I never said it was good, or subtle. I just said that it was a lot less complicated and incomprehensible than people often claim.

[Scowling Dragon]

Just awful presentation.

The philosophy behind it is also rubbish.

[Eldan]

What Philosophy? There wasn't much, from what I noticed.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well, it was mostly just the director whining for huge periods of time (Culminating in TWO EPISODES OF NOTHING BUT THE DIRECTOR YELLING AT LIFE) but the last 3 minutes of the show has Shinji approached by Ghost images of people he saw pre-melting into ooze that tell him Modern Existentialism is the way to go.

[Lord Seth]

Urgh, Narutaru. Such promise, wasted on needless gore and heavy-handed existentialism.

...Huh. That was terribly ironic.My bigger issue with Narutaru was the ending, which comes out of nowhere, is incredibly forced (one character doesn't come back to life in a previously-established resurrection-esque thing for no explained reason), and really makes the entire thing feel completely pointless. It honestly felt like the author thought "darn it, I want to keep making things more depressing. How can I possibly do it? Oh, I know, I'll rip off End of Evangelion. Okay, sure, I didn't actually bother to set it up like was done in Neon Genesis Evangelion, but hey, depression! How can I resist?"

[Scowling Dragon]

The ending was stupid wether or not it was set up or not.

[Eldan]

Well, it was mostly just the director whining for huge periods of time (Culminating in TWO EPISODES OF NOTHING BUT THE DIRECTOR YELLING AT LIFE) but the last 3 minutes of the show has Shinji approached by Ghost images of people he saw pre-melting into ooze that tell him Modern Existentialism is the way to go.

We are talking about the movies here, not the show. The show ending was just plain bad.

[Scowling Dragon]

Oh the Movie.....Eh....It was still pretty dumb.

Apparently our soul shields hold our molecular composition together and then we all melt back into ooze.

It was dumb but at least it was slightly less whiny.

[Feytalist]

Hmm. I didn't mind the ending of the show (the last two episodes, that is). It was cathartic.

End of Evangelion though, was pretty good, in a "I never want to watch that ever again" kind of way. And I seem to remember the show building up to that point pretty much from about halfway through. So the ending hardly came out of left field.

[Brother Oni]

Well, it was mostly just the director whining for huge periods of time (Culminating in TWO EPISODES OF NOTHING BUT THE DIRECTOR YELLING AT LIFE) but the last 3 minutes of the show has Shinji approached by Ghost images of people he saw pre-melting into ooze that tell him Modern Existentialism is the way to go.

Did you not read my comment on why the final two episodes of the TV series was so half arsed? :smallconfused:

It's fine to hate a series, but to blame the series for something that was beyond its creators' control is somewhat unfair.

[Scowling Dragon]

Uh- Yes I can. They could have done anything. Its still garbage. Its just the completely garbage conclusion to the partialy garbage second half of the series.

Th director getting prissy at the fanbase for hating the ending suggests to me that he WANTED an hour of ramblings. And that they where not appreciated made him mad.

[Brother Oni]

Uh- Yes I can. They could have done anything. Its still garbage. Its just the completely garbage conclusion to the partialy garbage second half of the series.

Th director getting prissy at the fanbase for hating the ending suggests to me that he WANTED an hour of ramblings. And that they where not appreciated made him mad.

In my opinion, if I were getting blamed for a crappy ending forced on me by studio executives, where I had to do a last minute emergency rewrite, new storyboarding, voicework and animation on a project that is already over schedule, which is probably thousands of man hours of work and the fans still aren't happy, I would be annoyed with the fanbase too.
Bear in mind that they made every deadline for the show's original run, so they really pulled out all the stops to pull this off, but I guess people don't appreciate the effort.

Reportedly, Anno was unhappy with the ending as well, due to money, time and network executive meddling, hence why the Death and Rebirth films came out as an expanded version of the intended ending.

Did you really think the director wanted two episodes of rambling to end a series on?

[Scowling Dragon]

Because the second part of the show rambles much- Yes.

Its not like they only did this with the last two episodes. This is just taking the bull**** ramblings of the earlier episodes to their conclusion.

[Brother Oni]

Because the second part of the show rambles much- Yes.

Its not like they only did this with the last two episodes. This is just taking the bull**** ramblings of the earlier episodes to their conclusion.

One question - if you dislike the franchise so much, why did you watch the End of Evangelion movie?

[Scowling Dragon]

I hoped for closure. Again. I just really disliked the second half.

And If I didn't watch the movie I would get this as a response:

"You have no right to criticize the classic series as you haven't watched the movie".

I haven't watched any of the new stuff. Mostly because I can't stand even the sight of Shinis face.

[Tiki Snakes]

My main problem with Evangelion, other than the generally detestable nature of Shinji's actions in the latter half of the series and the weird way the universe seems to revolve around him, is the squandered potential.

Right up to quite near the end, it felt like the series could pull together and do something big, something to really shake things up.

When it ended first with two incoherant no-budget-left Director-Breakdown-Rants and then a movie in which the cosmically important main character just sits around crying whilst everyone elses efforts at doing things are denied in a manner most reminiscent of an angry DM getting back at his players, well, at that point it was just such a damp squib really.

But at least the Movie was lovingly animated, and the head-smashingly WTF sequence of everyone exploding into ooze was actually strangely hilarious.

I have high hopes for the big remake project thing, but I'm not going to watch any of them until they've finished making the whole sequence.

[Brother Oni]

"You have no right to criticize the classic series as you haven't watched the movie".

You're perfectly within your rights to hate the series, particularly the ending, since even Gainax apparently doesn't like how it finished that much (hell, I don't like the ending).

I just dislike the fact that people assume it was entirely intentional.



I haven't watched any of the new stuff. Mostly because I can't stand even the sight of Shinis face.

According to reviews, the Rebuild movies are an alternate version of the series and are a lot more tightly scripted - the first two movies (about ~90 mins and ~100mins) take you all the way up to episode 19, so presumably the next two are expected to cover the next 4 episodes and the EoE movie.

While this will probably fix your rambling issue with the latter half of the series, since you apparently dislike even the EoE ending, I suggest you simply just drop the franchise for the sake of your blood pressure.

[Scowling Dragon]

I don't hate it...I found it a bit too "Out there (For no good reason)" for my taste.

But yes. My blood BOILS if I hear his voice.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm chiming in because I'm obligated to chime in on an Evangelion topic, but I think most of what needs to be said has been said already. Some people like it, some people don't, some people are like me and just roll with the gradual and highly precipitous change from "fun show to watch" to "uniquely confusing navel-gazing with a few additional holy-****-what-was-that high points" around the midpoint of the show.

However, Scowling Dragon, can I suggest watching the series and/or movies subbed? Megumi Ogita's voice is less grating than Spike Spencer's, and almost as good at screaming.

[Scowling Dragon]

I just can't stand his face. I don't want to watch the show again.

In fact. I have said my piece and leaving you all good folks alone. Thank you.

[TheLaughingMan]

However, Scowling Dragon, can I suggest watching the series and/or movies subbed? Megumi Ogita's voice is less grating than Spike Spencer's, and almost as good at screaming.

Is it wrong that I kind of like Spike Spencer's rendition more? I mean sure, he is a fair bit whinier in the English version, but it kind of gives him some depth. Like, you really want to just slap him sometimes, but then you see the stuff he's gone through and all his attempted heroic feats, and you realize he really is one of the few people at the start of the show aiming to save the world, even if his neuroses and allies fight him every step of the way. It kind of ties into the whole "trying to grow up too fast" theme with the pilots.

[AkaiNeko]

Just chiming in. Teh analysis looks pretty good so far. Like Nerd-o-rama said, most of what "needs" to be said has been said. It's one of my favorite series, and movies, and I accept that not everyone agrees with me on it. I actually think it gets better as it goes on. I like that raw feeling of desperation and impending doom, both literal and not.

And everyone needs a (non-TI related, preferably) hug. Seriously.

[0Megabyte]

Honestly, I just got done binging a still-ongoing 5000-post thread over at rpg.net about Evangelion, by people who actually like it. So it's strange to see all the hate again.

But you know, haters gonna hate. I honestly like the Descent Arc, myself. Still, though, what did everyone expect? The first Angel battle in the series was a non-linear sequence shown in a boy's PTSD flashbacks about getting his butt kicked, and realizing that the thing he's piloting is a monster. We were warned.

In any case, the movie was pretty straightforward, too. But then, I've seen The Mirror, by Tarkovsky. Now THAT was hard to follow. EoE was just one-half war sequence, one-half Shinji getting a truly messed up "It's A Wonderful Life" treatment, followed by an epilogue of him back in shore, hurting someone to prove the narrative point that yes, going back into the world will cause pain... and then coming back from that brink, plus lots of glorious ambiguity.

[Dumbledore lives]

I want to say I didn't like Evangelion too much when I first watched it, mostly the first half. I actually started liking it a lot more after episode 13 or so, when the bad stuff began piling on and the series got darker. I didn't like the happy go lucky first part, especially how much some of it contrasts with the later stuff.

That's why I like the movie so much because as long as you have the characters pre-established it works well as its own story kind of, and keeps a consistent tone, as well as having a great hope spot in the middle that just gets ground down so much over the course of the next five minutes. Anyway I put up the second part (http://shapperdash.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/end-of-evangelion-part-2-unknown.html) so I hope anyone reading likes it, and would be willing to read more, because heavens' know I have a lot to write.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Is it wrong that I kind of like Spike Spencer's rendition more? I mean sure, he is a fair bit whinier in the English version, but it kind of gives him some depth. Like, you really want to just slap him sometimes, but then you see the stuff he's gone through and all his attempted heroic feats, and you realize he really is one of the few people at the start of the show aiming to save the world, even if his neuroses and allies fight him every step of the way. It kind of ties into the whole "trying to grow up too fast" theme with the pilots.

I agree on some levels, and I feel the same way about Tiffany Grant's annoyingly shrill portrayal of Asuka. She's not a nice person, nor one who cares if she annoys people. I'm just saying the Japanese is easier to listen to, not to mention waaaay more consistently high quality (argue about Amanda Wynn Lee's Rei all you want, I'm just saying, the background characters in English. *shudder*.)

Now, Rebuild's dub cast is far more professional all around, and keeps the three best actors from the original (Spencer, Grant, and Allison Keith) but with an extra decade of experience under their belts. It's actually a pretty awesome dub.

[Dumbledore lives]

So I added another (http://shapperdash.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/evangelion-3-search-for-love.html) part and have to say that I'm actually really looking forward to Rebuild 3.0. It's going to be completely different from the series and movies, but from what I've seen it may end up being a stronger story, albeit a different one. Going to have to wait until 4 comes out to really give in an evaluation, but so far it looks good.

[TheLaughingMan]

So I added another (http://shapperdash.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/evangelion-3-search-for-love.html) part and have to say that I'm actually really looking forward to Rebuild 3.0. It's going to be completely different from the series and movies, but from what I've seen it may end up being a stronger story, albeit a different one. Going to have to wait until 4 comes out to really give in an evaluation, but so far it looks good.

Even ignoring Rebuild's bigger differences, the more subtle ones are very interesting. Take this quote from a review of 2.22, for instance:


Ikari Shinji: Ho boy, where to start on this kid? How about this? He's a selfish little jerk who'll gladly doom the human race. Why do I come to that conclusion? Very simple, he got back on that train. You see, one of the big themes I picked up about the original NGE was that Shinji never got back on the train out of Tokyo-3 and kept on going in the world, no matter how much he wanted to bolt like a white-tailed dear with a catamont in the field. It's an interesting bit of symbolism, but it's completely shot in 2.0 because Shinji does get back on that train. More then that though, NGE!Shinji didn't know exactly what was at stake in the battles he was fighting, Rebuild!Shinji knows that if an Angel penetrates Terminal Dogma every human on the planet will die, and yet he still doesn't fight. In fact, even when Mari tells him exactly what's going on, and how everyone needs him, he still just sits there and sulks. NGE Shinji just needed to know that the world was at stake and why, and he rushed to help. That's not good enough for Rebuild!Shinji though, no, he doesn't care about everyone dying or the Geofront being destroyed – hell, he caused half the damage! In fact, the only thing which spurs Shinji into action is Rei being eaten by Zeruel, that's all he cares about – nobody and nothing else, but the clone of his mother that he has a crush on. What. A. Jerk.

As awesome as everyone claims Rebuid!Shinji to be, he seems to be a much more selfish character, which I think is interesting. Would the original Shinji have done the same, knowing what Re!Shinji did?

[Nerd-o-rama]

If Rebuild Shinji's more selfish, it's only because he's more assertive without actually being any smarter. He actually comes to decisions and attempts to stick with them (terrible though those decisions are towards the end of Rebuild 2). He walks out on his own terms, and he walks back in on his own terms. For once.

Also,
They kinda needed to set up the fact that Shinji gives no ****s except about saving Rei for the climax to work like it did.

More selfish? Maybe. But it's a natural consequence of having more of a spine while still being 14.