(PF) A(nother) Finesse Rogue Attempt at Combat Viability

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

stated goals of this build:
1.) attempt to optimize Weapon Finesse
2.) Make a combat viable Finesse (mostly) Rogue

Half-Elf Ranger 2/Rogue (scout)10

20 Point Buy

STR 10
DEX 17 (19)
CON 14
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 8

Feats:
EWP: Aldori Dueling Sword
1 Finesse
3 TWF
5 Iron Will
7 Toughness
9 Improved Initiative
11 Focus: Aldori Dueling Sword

Ranger Combat Style:
2 Power Attack

Rogue Talents
2 Fast Stealth
4 Offensive Defense
6 Combat Trick: ITWF
8 Surprise Attack
10 Crippling Strike/Hunter's Surprise

Required Equipment: Aldori Dueling Sword, Spiked gauntlet or Cestus

Rundown: Obviously you have two different combat techniques to use: Power Attack or TWF. at level 4 of Rogue, 6 total, you gain the ability to deal Sneak Attack damage on a charge as long as the target does not have uncanny dodge.

Combat: combat consists of charging with Power Attack, which also gives you Sneak attack damage. When possible, flank and use your TWF aldori dueling sword+ spiked gauntlet for a couple extra potential sneak attacks. IF you can't charge, and you can't flank, smash away with your two handed power attack.

by level 12 on a charge, assuming a mere +1 Agile sword:+16 to hit, 1d8+6 (agile) +9 (power attack)+1 magic+2 charge +5d6. average= 40 damage on a charge.

Just Power Attack, no Sneak attack: +14 to hit, 1d8+6 (agile)+9 Power attack+1 magic. average=20.5 damage

TWF flanking with Sneak attack: Aldori Dueling Sword +15/10 1d8+7+5d6. average: 29 damage/hit. Spike Gauntlet (+1 agile) +14/9 1d4+7+5d6. average: 27 damage/hit.

ASSUMING you can get a full attack off while using TWF ( a big assumption) you would get an average of 112 damage. this is nothing special in of itself, but the ability to remain relevant WITHOUT flanking is. An average of 40 damage on a charge is no Cavalier, but its nothing to sneeze at either. Its also not often you see a rogue doing an average of 20.5 damage on a single hit without a Sneak Attack.

Also keep in mind that these numbers are without ANY items, beyond assuming a +1 agile weapon in each hand, and all bonus stat points into DEX, giving a DEX of 22, a +6 modifier.

Obviously a STR build rogue will be doing slightly more damage per hit, and can use the same method as far as feats go. HOWEVER, a STR rogue cannot safely dump DEX, as this build can dump STR. Dex also gives a myriad of secondary bonuses that are beneficial.

In any case, the best i hope for is to theorycraft a DX rogue that isn't utterly left in the dust as far as damage goes. I like my nimble rogues, and 3.x does not approve of DEX based anything, save archer.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated, and I know this isn't by any means fully optimized, merely a rough outline. Thanks in advance!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

no comments yo?

[deuxhero]

Skip Aldori Dueling Sword and go with Dervish Dance for dex to damage as well as attack.

[ChaosLord29]

Two weapon fighting is definitely the way to go for a finesse based rogue, but I don't think that necessarily means you should be dipping into ranger. Why not go full rogue to maximize your sneak attack damage? You can use the rogue talents to get the necessary feats (combat trick). Rather than your aldorei blade, why not go with paired short swords and pick up weapon training with them? That way you don't need the weapon proficiency and can spend the feat on weapon training and focus with them instead.

On that note, I think you're investing too heavily in the bonus hit points. A rogue should focus on not getting hit at all, and taking toughness means not taking weapon training. I understand that since you're also focusing on charging, it makes sense your going to need more health, but I think you'd be better off with a combat maneuver that didn't rely on putting you directly in the fray and reducing your AC.

May I suggest tripping and capitalizing on the subsequent opportunity attacks should your opponent attempt to stand?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I went for ranger to get Power attack without the 13 STR prerequisite. It is a focus for this build, because TWF is NOT optimal for anything but a full attack flank for a rogue.

Thus, Power attack is used whenever you cant full attack.

Aldori dueling sword is necessary because it is a finesse one handed weapon that you can use in two hands, unlike a scimitar with Dervish Dance. RAI you can't TWF with Dervish Dance anyway. RAW you could with an unarmed attack.

In any case, Power attack has better damage output that Dervish Dance at higher levels without magic item investment.

Not only that, Agile replicates Dervish Dance on any Finesse-able weapon as a +1 enhancement, without wasting a feat and being unable to use your offhand for anything.

Also, a TWF rogue MUST invest heavily into hit points. they wear light armor and depend on full attacks for massive damage output. This means they have no shield, and are standing right next to a huge monster that can deal more damage on a full attack than they can. Hit points have NEVER been a luxury for a rogue, but rather a necessity.

[KnightOfV]

Have you considered the Elven curved blade in Core? It's two handed finesse with a d10 to damage and 18-20 critical range. Plus, elf gets it for free with a martial dip (you're taking ranger anyways for PA) or half-elf substitution, like you have in your build. Instead of TWF get Improved Critical (15-20 threat!) or Vital Strike. Your full attacks will not be quite as impressive, but it will be really easy to consistently move-flank-standard attack for a lot of damage. Vital strike means you have to standard attack, not charge, but charging is not always viable and lowers AC. Plus only one weapon to enchant means you can afford better enchantments, and a flaming/frost weapon is another d6 of damage.

Using your example at level 12 with vital strike and Elven curve blade.
Just Power Attack, no Sneak attack: +14 to hit, 2d10+6 (agile)+9 Power attack+1 magic. average=27 damage.

+5d6 Sneak attack= 44.5 average on a standard attack. Not bad.

Oh, and don't forget, rogues can get Weapon Finesse as a talent, so unless you're starting at Lv. 1 you can use that feat slot for something else.

[Starbuck_II]

Have you considered traits?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/goblin-foolhardiness
Is decent when fighting larger foes.

[deuxhero]

Though it requires Goblin. Sword Scion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/campaign-traits/kingmaker/sword-scion), while a Campaign trait, is extremely fluff neutral and a good choice (unless you rule Blade of the Society to be +1 damage per SA die, then take that).

Oh, one thing I forgot, for a Rogue focusing on getting lots of SA, Ninja Trick: Pressure Points is a great talent, able to deal a point of dex or strength damage for every hit you make. It is less useful if you start at Rogue 10 because Crippling Strike outclasses it (ask the GM if you can retrain it or do 2 dex damage for having them both).

[Barstro]

. Rather than your aldorei blade, why not go with paired short swords and pick up weapon training with them? That way you don't need the weapon proficiency and can spend the feat on weapon training and focus with them instead.

I believe this is a Pathfinder alternate Half-Elf Trait as opposed to a wasted Feat.

[grarrrg]

Have you considered traits?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/race-traits/goblin-foolhardiness
Is decent when fighting larger foes.

I just read the text on that and had to laugh:
"...your posturing, bravado, and cussing grant you a +1 trait bonus..."

[Larpus]

Hi, I'm the guy who likes Alchemists, so I'm here to promote the Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) class.

Seriously now, the archetype Vivisectionist replaces the bombs with sneak attack, with the exact same progression as the Rogue and they stack for pre-reqs and the such.

It also gives you some spellcasting with a crazy doctor theme to it, so it doesn't go too much into the spellcasting territory (and you can always just not use it at all), some interesting ways to enhance your character with Discoveries (live longer, make clones, simulacra, fly, etc).

As for your Power Attack problem, with the Alchemist you have a thing called mutagen that from level 1 can give you +4 Str for 10 min/level, so you can qualify for it whenever you're mutagened or you can grab Piranha Strike (www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat), which is Power Attack for light weapons, just be sure to check with your DM if he'd be sensible enough to grant the same courtesy that Weapon Finesse gets with your chosen weaponry (which just makes perfect sense in my book).

Just my two cents, since Rogue 2/Alchemist X seems to be one of the best Rogue builds you can make with PF.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I am trying to optimize a Rogue. I am trying to make Finesse worth it, or at least competent with STR builds.

to do that, a few things must happen:

1.) ability to deal damage regardless of triggers, like flanking.

2.) ability to deal damage without a full attack.

3.) ability to deal damage with a full attack.

This build addresses all of these necessities to a certain degree. All of the different weapons everyone has thus far offered as a suggestion fail to do at least one of these to the same degree that this build does.

Secondly, I don't care about alchemist, or any other sneak attack based class. I AM TRYING TO OPTIMIZE A ROGUE. This is theorycrafting, not a character I will necessarily be playing. I recognize the many flaws the rogue class has. Thats why I don't play them in an optimized group, but I am interested in them from a mechanical standpoint.

So lets stick with rogue, shall we?

and if we offer suggestions, explain how than can actually improve this build from what i have offered: attack and damage on standard action, and attack and damage on a full attack. My only requirement is that it be a rogue and use Finesse.

Thanks.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I am trying to optimize a Rogue. I am trying to make Finesse worth it, or at least competent with STR builds.

to do that, a few things must happen:

1.) ability to deal damage regardless of triggers, like flanking.

2.) ability to deal damage without a full attack.

3.) ability to deal damage with a full attack.

This build addresses all of these necessities to a certain degree. All of the different weapons everyone has thus far offered as a suggestion fail to do at least one of these to the same degree that this build does.

Secondly, I don't care about alchemist, or any other sneak attack based class. I AM TRYING TO OPTIMIZE A ROGUE. This is theorycrafting, not a character I will necessarily be playing. I recognize the many flaws the rogue class has. Thats why I don't play them in an optimized group, but I am interested in them from a mechanical standpoint.

So lets stick with rogue, shall we?

and if we offer suggestions, explain how than can actually improve this build from what i have offered: attack and damage on standard action, and attack and damage on a full attack. My only requirement is that it be a rogue and use Finesse.

Thanks.

[deuxhero]

If that's your only goal, Dervish Dance Magus does that.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

If that's your only goal, Dervish Dance Magus does that.

....

"Secondly, I don't care about alchemist, or any other sneak attack based class. I AM TRYING TO OPTIMIZE A ROGUE. This is theorycrafting, not a character I will necessarily be playing. I recognize the many flaws the rogue class has. Thats why I don't play them in an optimized group, but I am interested in them from a mechanical standpoint."

Do you even read any of my posts?

[Bhaakon]

1.) ability to deal damage regardless of triggers, like flanking.

Well there's your problem right there. You can't optimize a rogue to deal combat damage regardless of SA trigger, because the only way to optimize a rogue for combat is to maximize its SA triggers.

There are ways to do that (Dips, shatter defense, eldritch heritage), but they're not going to produce impressive results when measured by average damage w/o sneak attack.

[deuxhero]

....

"Secondly, I don't care about alchemist, or any other sneak attack based class. I AM TRYING TO OPTIMIZE A ROGUE. This is theorycrafting, not a character I will necessarily be playing. I recognize the many flaws the rogue class has. Thats why I don't play them in an optimized group, but I am interested in them from a mechanical standpoint."

Do you even read any of my posts?

I read it as your are trying to optimize a rouge so you can make a viable dex based combatant.

Honestly, a rogue is only viable in melee in ANY circumstance by working through his sneak attack. Without it, the average aristocrat it better than you at combat.

edit: Actually, I just got an ideas!

Are Psionics allowed in your game? UPD a Psionic Lion's Charge item is great for a scout.

[Larpus]

I am trying to optimize a Rogue. I am trying to make Finesse worth it, or at least competent with STR builds.

to do that, a few things must happen:

1.) ability to deal damage regardless of triggers, like flanking.

2.) ability to deal damage without a full attack.

3.) ability to deal damage with a full attack.

This build addresses all of these necessities to a certain degree. All of the different weapons everyone has thus far offered as a suggestion fail to do at least one of these to the same degree that this build does.

Secondly, I don't care about alchemist, or any other sneak attack based class. I AM TRYING TO OPTIMIZE A ROGUE. This is theorycrafting, not a character I will necessarily be playing. I recognize the many flaws the rogue class has. Thats why I don't play them in an optimized group, but I am interested in them from a mechanical standpoint.

So lets stick with rogue, shall we?

and if we offer suggestions, explain how than can actually improve this build from what i have offered: attack and damage on standard action, and attack and damage on a full attack. My only requirement is that it be a rogue and use Finesse.

Thanks.
I see your point, since you had those Ranger levels, I thought you were just trying to make an optimized "Rogue-like" character and wasn't completely averse to magic (though yeah, 2 Ranger levels won't get you any spellcasting), which is why I suggested Alchemist, I played one in a game and quite honestly, that class really addresses many of the Rogue flaws quite well.

That said, as others pointed out, it's really hard for a Rogue to get a decent damage output going without SAs...I mean, that's what they're designed for, many not properly/fully optimized classes' damage output look rather minuscule whenever the average Rogue can get 2 or 3 SAs in, so it doesn't really matter what you do in that regard, when compared to the damage you could be doing with SA (which is usually as much as you can do without plus SA), it'll look ok at best (especially since PF really increased the amount of things that can be SA-ed).

That's especially true when you want to do well in both full attacks and single attacks, people usually build for one or the other and just get by when the one they're not really built for shows up.

But if you're so invested, try to, somehow, get some natural attacks in there, 3 is the magical number, so you qualify for Multiattack, which cuts the penalty to using secondary natural attacks to just -2, the basic set of 3 natural attacks is a bite and 2 claws, so you can use a one-handed weapon, a bite and a claw in a full attack routine, the weapon attack striking with normal BAB and then two -2 attacks, consideraly better than TWF that would cost you two feats and strike at -2/-7.