The other side of a hellfire warlock

[killianh]

I have an idea that I saw that looked awesome, but I'm looking for help to gestalt it.

On the one side I have:
Demon bloodline 3\warlock 6\hell fire warlock 3\chameleon 2 with my focus being eldritch glaive.

If I start human and use some flaws the feats I'll end up with are:
Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Stand Still, Able Learner, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Battle Caster, Martial Study: Shield Block, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest, Cleave. I will get them in that order up until level 14 where the build starts.

The idea is that Thicket and Stand still help with battle control, Strongheart lets me use hellfire without taking the Con damage, The bloodline grants some nice bonuses, and Chameleon for Aptitude focus (combat) and the floating bonus feat if I feel like some item creation (it's the Thicket feat in the build listed).


With that done what would be good for the other side of this gestalt character, or what changes would you make to this side before working on the other?

P.S. I'm focusing on combat so my CHA is rather low for a warlock (without items anyways)

[JadePhoenix]

If I start human and use some flaws the feats I'll end up with are:
Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Stand Still, Able Learner, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Battle Caster, Martial Study: Shield Block, Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades, Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest, Cleave. I will get them in that order up until level 14 where the build starts.
I see a few problems with your feat selection here.

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are ranged-only feats. This is a melee build. Also, this is gestalt. You will have full bab on your other side. Between touch attacks and full bab, PBS and Precise Shot are near to useless even in a ranged build.
Battle Caster is very, very weak. Even though you'll gain medium armor proficiency from your other gestalt side, the bonus is just too small to make a difference. Also, you need high Dex for extra attacks of opportunity anyway. Get a mithral breastplate (or angelic armor).
If you're taking Martial Study, you should intead not take and take your other side of gestalt as a Warblade or Crusader.
Strongheart Vest is VERY iffy on how it interacts with hellfire. I'd advise a Binder dip (maybe in your other side) and/or familiar with a Rod of Bodily Restoration.
You can't use Power Attack with eldritch glaive. Check Complete Arcane's rules for weapon-like spells.



The idea is that Thicket and Stand still help with battle control, Strongheart lets me use hellfire without taking the Con damage, The bloodline grants some nice bonuses and (If I read it right by RAW) stacks with Hellfire Warlock for Hellfire damage (meaning I would gain 8d6 with my first hell fire level), and Chameleon for Aptitude focus (combat) and the floating bonus feat if I feel like some item creation (it's the Thicket feat in the build listed).
I mentioned a few problems with this strategy above.


With that done what would be good for the other side of this gestalt character, or what changes would you make to this side before working on the other?
Warblade. Sudden Leap alone makes it worth it (as is, you have no way to actually move and use eldritch glaive in your build).The best chassis in the game also helps.

Well, you really should check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159708) out.

[killianh]

I was trying to avoid taking a ToB class :smalltongue:

I wasn't sure about the power attack thing (as I said I just saw the build and kinda liked what it was going for) but the two ranged feats are for versatility more than anything and getting a few shots in before the enemies move in

the build looked like a "walk into a crowd, then kill everything" set up so I assume its based on using a turn to walk into the crowd, then pulling the glaive out.

When I read the hell fire\soul meld issue it seemed simple really. By RAW Hell fire can't be used if you are immune to ability damage. The soul meld doesn't make you immune, it just ignores a single point. The difference between resistance and immunity can mean a lot :smallbiggrin:

[JadePhoenix]

I was trying to avoid taking a ToB class :smalltongue:
Why? :smallconfused:


I wasn't sure about the power attack thing (as I said I just saw the build and kinda liked what it was going for) but the two ranged feats are for versatility more than anything and getting a few shots in before the enemies move in
That's the thing, you don't need those two feats for that. That's one of the selling points of a melee warlock - with your full bab and touch attacks, you can still do ranged just fine without any investment.


the build looked like a "walk into a crowd, then kill everything" set up so I assume its based on using a turn to walk into the crowd, then pulling the glaive out.
That's... quite suboptimal.


When I read the hell fire\soul meld issue it seemed simple really. By RAW Hell fire can't be used if you are immune to ability damage. The soul meld doesn't make you immune, it just ignores a single point. The difference between resistance and immunity can mean a lot :smallbiggrin:
This debate has been raging ever since FCII was released. The melee warlock handbook explains it, but I'll try my hand at it.

Because the diabolical forces behind the power
of hellfi re demand part of your essence in exchange for this
granted power, if you do not have a Constitution score or are
somehow immune to Constitution damage, you cannot use
this ability.
Fluff implies there is no way to avoid paying this cost. RAI is that there is no way to avoid paying this cost. Strongheart Vest avoids paying the cost. There is also the RAW argument of 'somehow immune to Constitution damage' - with Strongheart Vest you are immune to Con damage if it is just one point of Con damage.
Check with your DM, though. It's only his opinion that matters.

[Aeryr]

The strongheart vest is a can of worms in itself.

One can argue that you are sacrificing incarnum, a substance made up of the soul energies of all sentient creatures, living, dead and even those that are not born. And that's pretty evil, but it mostly accounts to talk to your dm.

Is your dm really going to allow you to take a bloodline in a gestalt? It... is to cheesy for my taste. I'll definetly drop chameleon and the bloodline and pick a level of binder.

Do you have access to eldrich claws? They are pretty good/necessary for melee lock.

In the other side, if you don't want ToB I'll go with Sohei into shou disciple or thayan gladiator, or both.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you are avoiding martial classes, consider something like cleric, as cleric goes well with everything. Travel devotion will give you the needed movement for closing quickly with the glave. Clerical spells will heal the con damage in a very non-cheese manner if your DM frowns on the vest or bind as too much like avoiding the cost.

I would strongly suggest you reconsider crusader as the other side of the class. You will eventually get a strike that casts heal, removing all con damage you may have.

Paladin of freedom or slaughter is also something to consider. Your full bab + some nice utility spells + some nice bonuses.

[Answerer]

Shifter Warlock//Monk 6 might work well. If you take the Path of Shackled Beast (or whatever it's called), you get Beast Strike and Flurry-Pounce (if this is not ruled to require being a Shifter, despite being associated with them, pick something other than Shifter as race). Then take Eldritch Claws, and laugh as you Flurry for (Unarmed Strike Damage)*2 + (Eldritch Blast damage) + (Hellfire Blast damage) on every strike.

[JadePhoenix]

A few gestalt hellfire 'lock suggestions for suggestions sake

Cleric 20//Warlock 11/Binder 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Cyran Avenger 5
Basically, you're a Cleric who also happens to be a glaivelock. Between Divine Power and Knight's Move, you're a very nnasty glaivelock. Also, 9th level spells. This is a CHA-heavy build, though.

Elan Warblade 5/Shou Disciple 5/Thayan Gladiator 10//Warlock 17/Hellfire Warlock 3
Eldritch Claws and Beast Strike, your base damage is ridiculous (9d6 base eldritch glaive, 15d6 with hellfire, 25d6 with eldritch claw+improved natural attack, 27d6 on Beast Strike). With Improved Rapidstrike and Natural Weapon Mastery, you are attacking at 20/20/20/15/10/5. Targets are stunned when you crit. Oh, we can optimize it further (greater chasuble of fell power, beastclaws, energy assault crystals, size increases, improved natural attack on unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike, the list goes on) but is it really necessary?
In other words:
Roses are red
Violets are blue
Omae wa mou
Shindeiru
Violets are blue
Roses are red
I don't have to tell you
you're already dead (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PIU3iPcu74)