[PF] Removing flight & spellcasting from dragons

[The Troubadour]

Hey there, guys! So, if I removed a dragon's flight and spellcasting abilities, how much should I reduce his CR?

[Scots Dragon]

About two or three or so, just as a very loose eyeballing. You'd still have a super-intelligent giant reptile capable of making more attacks per round than most members of the average adventuring party combined, though.

[Togo]

Use the dragons of the great game from MM5 for dragons without spells. Flight is one of those abilities that is worth more at high levels than at lower levels - best eyeball it, by comparing the situation advantage it would actually give, and then assigning it a CR of 1 or 2, (or maybe 3).

[JadePhoenix]

Draconomicon has the drakes. They are like dragons, but without flight and spellcasting. That might be what you're looking for.

[Seerow]

It really depends on the dragons. Older dragons will lose more, younger dragons will lose less. How much they lose will affect how much they're actually weakened. And then you have to figure Dragons are already strong for their CR... dropping the CR by even 1 or 2 for the younger dragons might make them unbeatably strong for some parties, while ancient dragons are losing a pretty large chunk of their power.

[The Troubadour]

So, as a rule of thumb, if the dragon's spellcasting is weak, I shouldn't change the CR at all, but a dragon with strong spellcasting - say, an elder or great wyrm -, I should reduce his CR by 3, more or less?

What if I changed a dragon's specific element? I mean, what if I used the red dragon's chassis, but changed its breath to acid and gave it an acidic bite (similar to the black dragon's) instead of its fire aura? Would that change its CR in any way?



Draconomicon has the drakes. They are like dragons, but without flight and spellcasting. That might be what you're looking for.

I don't think I've seen the "Draconomicon" drakes, but in PF they're also dumb and smaller. I wanted something closer to actual dragons, only without the spells and wings. :-)



Use the dragons of the great game from MM5 for dragons without spells.

...They reached MM5 in 3.5?!
Well, I'll see if I can find it and take a look at it. Thanks! :-)


Flight is one of those abilities that is worth more at high levels than at lower levels(...)

Really? I'd have thought it would be the other way around - a high-level party has plenty of access to flight, after all, as opposed to a low-level one.