[3.5/PF] Inspire Courage's usefulness in relation to its action cost

[The Troubadour]

So, this is something that's always bothered me.

Now, I love playing Bards, don't get me wrong; but I've always wondered whether Inspire Courage's bonus wasn't too small (without taking into account Words of Creation/Dragonfire Inspiration/2 songs at the same time cheese), since 1) it costs me a standard action to use, and 2) at higher levels, I could, instead, cast Haste, just for an example.

So, assuming Inspire Courage cheese isn't used, how worthwhile is it to trade a standard action for a morale bonus to attack and damage rolls and saving throws against fear?

[jguy]

If you are in a Devoted Spirit Stance from Tome of Battle and take the feat Song of the White Raven, you can activate a bard song as a swift action.

[Big Fau]

In 3.5, IC is fairly decent with a couple of pump effects. You don't really need DFI or Words of Creation to make it a noticeable, helpful bonus, but those really are nice. A +5 bonus on attack rolls (3 IC, 1 Badge of Valor, 1 Song of the Heart), for example, can be more useful than an extra attack from Haste. Not to say Haste isn't still a good option, just that the higher attack bonus can really help out a melee-focused party.

In PF, most forms of Bardic Music got shot in the face.

[Snowbluff]

In 3.5, IC is fairly decent with a couple of pump effects. You don't really need DFI or Words of Creation to make it a noticeable, helpful bonus, but those really are nice. A +5 bonus on attack rolls (3 IC, 1 Badge of Valor, 1 Song of the Heart), for example, can be more useful than an extra attack from Haste. Not to say Haste isn't still a good option, just that the higher attack bonus can really help out a melee-focused party.

In PF, most forms of Bardic Music got shot in the face.

+5/+5 is good, but this doesn't really represent the Bardic Music's potential. Other than that, it's the rough equivalent to +10 to an ability score.

The fact that you can take it as a Swift with Song of the White Raven, use DFA, Words of Creation, and do it again with classes that give the ability to use 2 Bardic Musics at once are what make it great.

[T.G. Oskar]

[3.5/PF]? I saw the Inspire Courage version of the Pathfinder Bard and realized the question is mildly irrelevant (and by 13th level, completely irrelevant). Inspire Courage in PF grants a competence bonus to attack and damage rolls (very, VERY few things grant a competence bonus), bonus increases slightly faster (1st, 5th, 11th and 17th instead of 1st, 8th, 14th and 20th; I would have gone differently, tho) and Bardic MusicPerformance gets a swifter activation time by 7th and 13th level.

On 3.5, though, it is kinda slow, and doesn't scale properly (aside from some investment). A +1 to attack and (weapon) damage rolls as a standard action is nothing to chafe at during the first 4-5 levels (Bless, a 1st level spell, offers 2/3rds of the benefit that Inspire Courage does), but by 2nd level it becomes a slight liability depending on your spell choices (no liability with Inspirational Boost, liability with spells such as Sleep or Herald's Call). After 6th level, however, the benefit needs any kind of improvement or it starts to fall down quick (Glibness becomes a better opening salvo, Haste becomes great for warriors, Prayer offers the exact same benefit plus bonus to Fort and Reflex saves AND skill checks AND it's a luck bonus AND lasts for about 5 rounds, which is just about 1 round shy of how long IC lasts).

With some minor benefit (Inspirational Boost comes pretty close, or if you don't want to depend on spells use a masterwork drum [+1 to damage rolls, -1 on saves vs. fear] or masterwork horn [+1 to damage rolls and saves vs. charm and fear, song lasts 1 turn less), you can make it useful a little longer, enough for 8th level and a reasonable +2/+3 bonus (very few things offer these). With a decisive boost (Insp. Boost or Badge of Valor + Song of the Heart, a masterwork drum or horn) you can make it last well enough until 14th level, and a +5 bonus to attack and weapon damage rolls as an opening salvo is definitely a sizable benefit compared to what other spells can offer, particularly if other allies take their 1st turn to buff (if a Wizard uses Haste, you don't have to, after all). However, without that, the boost falls really swift enough to start mattering less and less (by 8th level, when you get the actual +2 bonus on IC, other spells already provide a better bonus).

[Downysole]

Without a bard using IC, my group wouldn't be able to roflstomp the bad guys like we do. Some people get to buff before the battle, but a Bard's job is to buff instead of making battle. He uses IC, aid another (amulet of teamwork!) and provides flanking bonuses. Other timely buff spells are nice, but IC is by far the most useful at low to mid levels where hitting stuff is #1.

[ericgrau]

In 3.5 you are correct. In PF you can bardic music as a move/swift so you can use music AND haste.

As for exact usefulness each +1 is providing 5% of a hit per attack. Multiply the +X by the number of party members by the number of attacks by the number of rounds. So if you have 2 fighter buddies attacking 3 times each for 3 rounds (rounds 2-4) and you give out a +2, that comes to 2*3*3*2*5%=1.80 hits. Ok for a standard action except it takes a while to finally get the benefits. Between the +1 and extra attack haste OTOH might give them 2 hits per round. So the problem isn't that inspire courage is bad, it's that haste is ridiculous. The biggest problem you'll have is that if anyone else can cast haste, he probably already did so you're stuck. Inspire courage is par or a little under depending on level and number of fighter buddies.

At higher level your fighter buddies should have boots of speed for free action haste so your spell is no longer needed. Your next best buff spell won't be nearly as good as haste though your combat spell might still be better than inspire courage. So save inspire courage for buffing rounds only unless you have a lot of fighter buddies.

Another thing to look into in pathfinder is gallant inspiration, which basically lets you give away a hit every single round as an immediate action. The gp cost is well worth it. A PF bard can standard action haste, move action music, immediate inspiration, and give out 3.5 hits (not attacks, hits) per round in the above example. On top of your normal actions for round 2 and later. Ridiculous.

[Ernir]

Is stealth a concern? If it isn't, start performing a few hours before the battle.

But yes. IC is a numerical buff, and there are few such effects powerful enough to spend a standard action on in combat.

[The Troubadour]

Hmmm... So, if I understand you guys correctly, as long as I keep pumping resources into it - I'm thinking of Inspirational Boost at level 2, and Song of the Heart at level 3 -, Inspire Courage should remain a viable use of a standard action (3.5) throughout all levels of play?

As for PF, it lacks those resources, but that's compensated by the fact that the bonus increases at a higher rate, and the action type soon becomes move/swift, thereby also remaining a viable option? Is that correct?

[Spuddles]

With relatively little investment over your first 8 levels, at least in 3.5, IC is awesome. A wand of inspirational boost lasts forever, drums or horn is cheap to pick up and you're using perform anyway, a badge of valor is also cheap, and you can either trade out your third level bardic music ability for song of the heart, or pick it up yourself. That's +2 at level 1, +3 at whatever level you learn inspirational boost/buy a wand, +4 at level 3, +5 when you can afford that badge of courage, and +6 at level 8.

If your party is melee heavy, get them to cover some of the costs of your equipment. Virtually all the bonuses there are in some very cheap items- 50gp masterwork instrument, 750 gp wand, 1800ish gp badge, and a class feature you wouldn't use (inspire competence).

Here's the kicker- you can start a bard song prior to combat- before you kick open the door, before you enter the horrible temple, as you're getting lost in the woods, etc. And you can also maintain it. You can maintain it the whole time you're in a dungeon delve, if you're running from encounter to encounter. Just make sure you get Melodic Spellcasting.


As for PF, it lacks those resources, but that's compensated by the fact that the bonus increases at a higher rate, and the action type soon becomes move/swift, thereby also remaining a viable option? Is that correct?

Yep. Also, the bonus in PF is awesome, because it will stack with other morale bonuses, like Bless or Heroics or whatever.

[Big Fau]

As for PF, it lacks those resources, but that's compensated by the fact that the bonus increases at a higher rate, and the action type soon becomes move/swift, thereby also remaining a viable option? Is that correct?

There's only one real issue: Caps. Pathfinder capped the bonus for IC at a flat +4. A +4 at 16th level is barely worth writing down.

[Spuddles]

There's only one real issue: Caps. Pathfinder capped the bonus for IC at a flat +4. A +4 at 16th level is barely worth writing down.

All those little bonuses add up, and +4 isn't that little. That +4 could be another 4 enchantments on a weapon, instead of buying a +5 weapon.

[Big Fau]

All those little bonuses add up, and +4 isn't that little. That +4 could be another 4 enchantments on a weapon, instead of buying a +5 weapon.

Or you could use the 3.5 Bard, and give a +8 bonus instead, as early as level 10 or so.

[Akal Saris]

I think you're comparing apples and oranges, Big Fau.

First, the best of all worlds is probably going to be a 3.P bard's inspire courage, since then you'll advance it at a faster rate, use it as a move action, and use swift/immediate to power another +2 boost to it with 3.5 sources, while using a standard action to cast Haste, Heroism (stacks with PF version), etc.

Yes, a 3.5 bard can get IC to truly ridiculous levels, but it is also going to be a significant investment. It means having a very high Int, spending 2 feats (3 if you are getting dragonfire), using a specific instrument, and still either using a standard action or multi-classing and losing your swift action for inspire boosting. It also means combining 5-6 sources from 7 years' worth of material. Try comparing the first 3 years of 3.5 with the first 3 years of PF, and the only boost that existed then was in BoED (though it is the most important IC boost you can get).

In contrast, the PF bard has a better action economy, his IC stacks with many other cleric and bard buffs, and every bard is going to enjoy those benefits regardless of feat or stat choices, leaving the character open to pursue some other aspect of his build. You're missing some of the options of the 3.5 bard, but I believe those will come in time.

[Downysole]

Has there ever been a discussion of whether Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor stack? Our group bard doesn't think they do, but from reading the descriptions just now, I think that they are both untyped bonuses. Is that accurate to say, or is there some dissent?

[Gwendol]

They stack in my game. Any reason why they wouldn't?

The trick of course is to continue singing while slinging spells and attacking. Stealth isn't always an issue.

[Togo]

Greater Harmonise, from races of stone, allows you to start bardsong as a move action. Combine with a p-class that allows you to start two songs as a single action.

Those +5 bonuses are less attractive at higher level, but they look a lot better when it's only half a move action to use. A lot also depends on what the rest of the party is doing. If they're all spellcasters, then it might not be worth it. If they're all two-weapon fighters, archers, or otherwise have stacks of attacks, then it's much better.

Finally, haste is almost always the better option. But you may not have enough spells per day to use it every fight, particularly if you ever want to cast anything else...