Alternatives to LA Buyoff

[Andorax]

Seeking some general opinions on a concept, and some of the ramifications.

LA Buyoff has always bothered me, and it also fails to solve one of the key problems with >0 LA races...unplayable at 1st level. Alas, it's widely suggested because many people seem to think LA isn't worth the cost.

So I'm looking for a quick and easy solution that doesn't involve a host of alternate rules, creating a bunch of monster-classes, etc.


To wit:

Option A: Trade more powerful for less. For each +LA a given race has, you are required to take a level of an NPC class (Warrior/Expert/Adept/Aristocrat) up front. Only when your number of NPC Class levels are equal to your race's normal LA may you begin buying regular classes.

This NPC class is exempted from the favored class/XP penalty rules (assuming you aren't ignoring them already).

How it plays out:
I can now play a Goliath Warrior 1 in a 1st level party, and can take a Fighter level next level without suffering any XP penalties. I've the same number of HD as the rest of my fellows. The "suckness" of my Warrior class level counterbalances the "awesomeness" of my race.

I can play a Drow Adept 1 at 1st level, take Adept 2 at second, then be free to take whatever class I want thereafter.


Option B: As Option A, above, but with an extra kicker/opportunity cost thrown in. For each +LA a given race has, you must ALSO select a flaw. You do not receive a bonus feat in exchange for this flaw, it's part of paying off your LA. As per the normal rules, you cannot have more than 2 flaws (unless you have a LA >2, in which case they all have to be payed for) so if you have a LA of 2 or more, you can't take additional flaws to get bonus feats.

How it plays out:

The aformentioned Goliath Warrior starts play with one flaw. He could select a second flaw in order to get one bonus feat, but no more than that.

The aforementioned Drow Adept starts play with two flaws, and may not select any others, nor get extra feats for the two he already has.


Thoughts? Other Options?

[Water_Bear]

If you're starting at 1st level, why not just take one level of your chosen PC class and wait to level up until you hit the xp threshold for level LA+1?

On average LA +1 or +2 isn't too overpowering, so you'll be a little more powerful and get less xp per enemy for a few levels, and then the other players levels will catch up to your ECL. After that you'll be free and clear, no buyoff needed.

You'll never have as many class levels, but that's the entire point of Level Adjustment in the first place. For better or worse, WotC has decided your template is worth a certain number of PC class levels, in the same way that Wizard 10 and Fighter 10 are theoretically worth about the same.

My 2cp.

[Righteous Doggy]

Occasionally I play a game with a +1 or +2 LA is allowed and forgotten right off the back, no buyout. It works out alright as long as no one chooses something truely ridiculous. Its very nice if you want to play a planetouched or Goliath instead of a regular person.

[Shadowknight12]

Do what I did. See this aasimar (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)? What they did was to take everything that was worth the LA +1 (in their opinion) and shoved it in a "dead level", leaving behind a LA +0 class to play.

What I did was to take this concept and combine it with LA buyoff. Do you want to play a combination of races and templates that totals something like +6? That's okay. We'll break everything up into "dead levels" that you can buy off for minimum XP if you play your cards right. And since level differences means more XP, you are bound to catch up to everyone else, with the full abilities of your race/templates and not a single LA in sight.

[VGLordR2]

My group has a simple houserule for dealing with LA races at low levels. The character is treated as a member of their races for roleplay, but they do not gain any racial features. They take character classes as normal. As soon as their level becomes one greater than the listed LA, they gain the racial features. This way, you don't have unbalancingly low HD, and you can play at low levels.

[hushblade]

Your system gives a slight boon to characters with LA, which is fine becuase unless you tend to powergame for your LA with race/templates, they tend to lag a little bit behind other characters(albeit slightly)

Its more useful for melee classes than magical classes(A fighter can get a lot more out of a level in warrior than a wizard can from adept) Which is also fine, mundanes need nice things.

I fully approve of this system.

[Bahamut Omega]

I liked using the Savage Species advancement tables for various creatures. This still retains the LA issue, but it does allow a player to start the game in a 1st level party and increase in power at a different rate since HD and racial abilities aren't gained at the same rate. Although SS was originally written for 3.0, you can usually adjust to 3.5 very easily.

[JadePhoenix]

Player's Guide to Faerun has a rule to give virtual negative levels on LA races.
So a drow (LA +2) could be a 1st level anything with 2 negative levels. Once he levels up, that negative level is lifted. Dunno how it deals with hp - probably virtual negative levels simply don't drain hp. Just check your copy of PGtF.

[CTrees]

So, I'm going to make an expert with +20 LA woth of templates. He'll just keep taking levels in expert intil he burns through all of those. No problem starting at level one, right?

I'm mobile, otherwise that'd be blue text. Regardless, the OP's idea works in most cases where someone just wants to take a reasonable race or template but wouldn't under normal rules. Start going crazy, and it falls apart.

I don't have a good solution beyond balancing on a case-by-case basis, or giving everyone the same, free LA (maybe allowing something like PF's Advanced template on people who just want to make a gnome bard or what have you, to compensate).

[Andorax]

So a host of "works just fine" "Just ignore it" and other solutions, and about 1 1/2 posters who think it works.

Not encouraging results, but not hopeless either.


Part of the reason I'm not excited about LA Buyoff or other XP-shifting alternatives is because I frequently hand-wave the whole dang XP system to save on accounting and just announce periodic "whole party levels up" to keep everyone in line with the current storyline and situation.

XP "cost" spells, item creation, etc...I give a pass to so long as it is kept to a reasonable level, and so far it has been.

So I'm looking for a non-XP based system for balancing out +LA races besides "ignore it".

Hushblade...do you like Option A or Option B better?

[Z3ro]

Something simillar has already been suggested, but whenever my groups run into this problem, we hand out goodies as the class levels up. So for my favorite race, Tieflings, you might start out with just stat boosts and outsider type, then gain spell-like abilities and resistances at level 2. Depending on the powerlevel and specific race/template, you can space things out differently, but this system seems to work well.

[Roguenewb]

Okay.... here's my thing, considering how if you start splatbook hunting and online diving, you can get nasty awesome races for either LA 0 or a joke of LA 1, I, personally, am strongly inclined to waive the first point of LA for anything that was presented for use by players. This basically boils down to -1 LA for any race found somewhere besides a Monster Manual. This puts Whisper Gnomes, Goliaths, Dream Dwarves, and such at an equal level to Humans at level one.

I think the key realization is: where do you feel the balance point for LA 0 races in the PHB is? After seeing how much Pathfinder risked on races, I have come to believe that the balance point is Human and Halfing, not Half-Orc and High Elves. With this in mind, I want other races to compete with Human. Goliaths at LA 0, Drow at LA 1, Whisper Gnomes, These all compete with humans. Yes, they trounce Half-Elf, but they should. Trouncing half-elf is a good thing.

[Garwain]

homebrew balancing rule that works for me:

tier 1: 24 point buy
tier 2: 28 point buy
tier 3: 32 point buy
tier 4: 36 point buy
rest: 40 point buy

1 level of LA can be bought of with taking -10 on your points to buy.

This makes it harsh for tier 1-3 to buy a LA, while for tier 6, it might very well worth investing 10 points in a LA.

[Roguenewb]

homebrew balancing rule that works for me:

tier 1: 24 point buy
tier 2: 28 point buy
tier 3: 32 point buy
tier 4: 36 point buy
rest: 40 point buy

1 level of LA can be bought of with taking -10 on your points to buy.

This makes it harsh for tier 1-3 to buy a LA, while for tier 6, it might very well worth investing 10 points in a LA.

Ten points per LA might be a little harsh. 6 maybe?

[lunar2]

homebrew balancing rule that works for me:

tier 1: 24 point buy
tier 2: 28 point buy
tier 3: 32 point buy
tier 4: 36 point buy
rest: 40 point buy

1 level of LA can be bought of with taking -10 on your points to buy.

This makes it harsh for tier 1-3 to buy a LA, while for tier 6, it might very well worth investing 10 points in a LA.

lv. 1: half ogre half minotaur human fighter (T5) LA 1 leaves me with 30 point buy to pump my strength/con even higher.

lv. 2: any T3 melee class to take advantage of my large size and stupid strength/con

thank you!

[JoeYounger]

I've been thinking about this too, I'm about to start a campaign and I'm thinking about passing out levels instead of xp, but that makes la buy off hard to do, what ill probably do is leave it alone until the party turns level 6 (which would put the LA toon at 5) and then just have the LA toon gain an extra level so they'd go from 4 to 6. Maybe not, it'd depend one what the players really wanted.

[KnightOfV]

This was how I did LA +1 races back before Pathfinder, I didn't like Buyoff with experience either because I never kept track of exp., and it still felt like goliaths and planetouched and all that got off too easy in later levels. I made players buy off adjustment with feats. Until they spend a feat, they stay a level behind (or two levels behind for LA +2) the rest of the party. They get to choose when, or if it is worth it to buyback their level. They can take the first level feat and buy off their level immediately, but then they are starting the game without a feat, which can suck. Probably not perfect, but it was quick, easy, and made the players invest something for their LA+1 race so not everyone wanted to play one.

Example: The whole party goes up to level 4, except the Teifling Rogue who goes to level 3. The Tefiling decides to use her lv. 3 feat to 'buy off' her level adjustment, so now she levels to 4 with the rest of the party.

The idea with taking a flaw for your race sounds good too, (I never allowed flaws, thought they were too min-maxish. Oh noes! My wizard takes a penalty to attack rolls and gets a metamagic feat!) but as always, it depends on what the DM thinks is fair.

[Chronos]

Roguenewb, whisper gnomes are LA 0 already. Maybe you're thinking of the Dark template, which is sometimes paired with whisper gnomes for insane stealth optimization?

[Elfinor]

Similar to your option A: I normally combine Bloodline Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels) advancement with Commoner HD in a Level Adjustment level. This means that a Feytouched LA 1/Sorc 4 would have a caster level of 5 (because of the LA level), but would otherwise have spells per day/known as a Level 4 Sorcerer. It is treated, in every aspect, as having a Character Level of 5.

We normally started games at Level 5, though, so pretty much everyone has PC class levels. We also use Partial BAB/Save rules, so having +1 LA doesn't shaft you (so much) in those arenas.

I'd like to give your Option B a shot, I think. Wondering if it might be best if the Adept could advance 1/2 casting instead...

One idea I remember hearing from BigTeej (I think) was using racial HD to replace LA - this was given the Vampire Template as a specific example.

[Telonius]

homebrew balancing rule that works for me:

tier 1: 24 point buy
tier 2: 28 point buy
tier 3: 32 point buy
tier 4: 36 point buy
rest: 40 point buy

1 level of LA can be bought of with taking -10 on your points to buy.

This makes it harsh for tier 1-3 to buy a LA, while for tier 6, it might very well worth investing 10 points in a LA.

I'm foreseeing lots of Enlightened and Sacred Fists. :smallbiggrin: I'd say you'd have to see the whole build to put a fair starting tier on it. Otherwise, it's not a bad idea.

[Daarchiver]

PBMC had a balanced ECL variant for those who understood LA was a rigged game in favor of LA+0 races.

He even had a thread proving it here (comparisons were in units of feats).

[Daarchiver]

Double post in case of censoring:

I'd link to all his stuff but I don't want to get mysteriously banned like him.

[pffh]

Part of the reason I'm not excited about LA Buyoff or other XP-shifting alternatives is because I frequently hand-wave the whole dang XP system to save on accounting and just announce periodic "whole party levels up" to keep everyone in line with the current storyline and situation.

I too use the level up when I feel like it's time for it scheme but I also use LA buyoff. How you ask? It's simple at ECL 5, 10, 15 and 20 you can remove one LA and catch up with the rest of the group ECL wise. That is you gain two levels at the levels you can remove the LA. Races with LA higher then 4 can only do this at level 10,15 and 20, races with LA higher then 9 only at levels 15 and 20 and builds with LA higher then 14 only at 20.

This has worked just fine for us.

Also usually I let level adjustments give d4 HD, poor BAB, all poor saves and 2 skill points per level adjustment and have this removed with them as the players slowly work down their LA.

[killianh]

Similar to your option A: I normally combine Bloodline Levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#bloodlineLevels) advancement with Commoner HD in a Level Adjustment level. This means that a Feytouched LA 1/Sorc 4 would have a caster level of 5 (because of the LA level), but would otherwise have spells per day/known as a Level 4 Sorcerer. It is treated, in every aspect, as having a Character Level of 5.

Similar to this, I usually break up everything the LA race would give and put them in a bloodline-like list. so you get some of the stuff as you go along, and pay them off as you level up.

[FMArthur]

I don't like most XP-based LA buyoffs that can essentially bring you to parity with others' levels over a short time. So the abilities you gained and still have are... free? Why would you ever not take some LA on then?

But I also don't think very many LAs are worth the number they're listed with. It's not a matter of just reductions either because oftentimes class levels just have no equivalency with most racial benefits. Maybe some abilities would be better off costing a feat or the price of a comparable magic item.

The system's just dysfunctional. Adjust on an individual basis or use homebrew versions of races (there is a lot of existing material online for use that way).

[Andorax]

pffh, it sounds like you're doing something a lot like this, only with "commoner" as the class and allowing it to later on be bought off.


killianh, FMArthur, those are exactly the sorts of "complicated, requires a lot of work" solutions I'm trying to avoid. I'm looking for something clear-cut and straightforward.

Sure, I *could* write up dozens of bloodline progressions, introduce dozens of completely different variants to LA adjusted races, etc.


Heck, the 3.5 conversion of Darksun started with the premise that, in order to survive, EVERYONE needed to be tougher than normal, and gave +1LA versions of all of the standard races, then scaled everything back down by 1. Basically, EVERYONE played a +1LA or higher race under that system.

But that's not what I'm shooting for (and Garwain, thanks for the suggestion, but we don't point-buy. Players won't stand for me taking their dice away).

I appreciate the numerous "what we do is..." answers. I'd love to hear from some of you again as to whether or not you'd play under, or run as DM, A or B...and why.

[Serpentine]

This is pretty much the same as a system I've been proposing for a while, but which I haven't had a chance to try out in practice. For every point of LA, you get a level of NPC class - specifically one that complements the classes you intend to be taking (e.g. Adept for Sorcerer/Wizard, Warrior for fighter classes, etc). Starting level restrictions and XP lag (if applicable) apply. So, for example, if you're playing a drow Sorcerer in a level 5 game, normally you'd be +2 LA + 3 levels of Sorcerer for ECL 5. With this you'd have (+2 LA + 2 levels in Adept) + 3 levels of Sorcerer for ECL 5. There would be a slight case-by-case basis type thing, as I gather some LA races are considered about right, rather than sub-par.
So basically as described in the OP, except it's all put on at once.

[KnightOfV]

@Andorax

I will answer your question specifically this time. :smallbiggrin:

Option A: I would play a LA+1 with this rule. You are a level behind in class features forever, but you since you get an NPC class, you are not significantly behind on HP, skills, or feats, which is the reason most people do not play LA races without buyoff. I think this is a pretty fair trade for Aasimar Paladins, Teifling Rouges, Goliath Barbarians and the like since they are a level behind class features but have improved stats and racial abilities to make up for it. If I was in the mood, I might play one of these with this rule.

Option B: I would not play a LA+1 with this rule. I never cared for flaws much, and I think it is too much of a penalty to get a flaw with the NPC class. Some of the flaws, like -2 to an ability score, almost cancel out the strongest benefit of a LA class by themselves. And it seems silly to me to believe every PC with an LA is uncoordinated or nearsighted or something.

[Andorax]

...So, for example, if you're playing a drow Sorcerer in a level 5 game, normally you'd be +2 LA + 3 levels of Sorcerer for ECL 5. With this you'd have (+2 LA + 2 levels in Adept) + 3 levels of Sorcerer for ECL 5.

So basically as described in the OP, except it's all put on at once.

I'm assuming you meant "(+2 LA => 2 levels in Adept)"?

You mention it's "all put on at once". What does your drow sorcerer start out as in a level 1 game? A Drow Adept 1 with Adept 2 to look forward to next?

[Serpentine]

I'm assuming you meant "(+2 LA => 2 levels in Adept)"?I meant what I wrote, but I guess you could put it that way instead.

You mention it's "all put on at once". What does your drow sorcerer start out as in a level 1 game? A Drow Adept 1 with Adept 2 to look forward to next?Wouldn't be allowed, or wouldn't level up nearly as quickly as the rest of the party until everyone caught up. It'd start out as a drow Adept 2, and then level up as a 3rd level character from there. Although, on the other hand... I suppose I could see starting out with Adept 1, levelling up normally and having to take Adept 2 next level...
Like I said, I haven't actually put this into practice yet. It still needs work. And it probably is basically exactly the same as yours.