The Oracle Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Beanie

2012-05-14, 09:40 PM

its widely considered by like every single work of finction ever that includes deals for selling ones soul that the dont get said soul until you die or at the very least complete the task if its something like "ill give you my soul if you let me take down (insert huge giant nigh impossible task)"

since V sold his soul for a good (the 3 other souls) then following pretty much everyones definition of selling your soul they cant touch V until hes dead and his soul leaves the mortal plane

Putting aside your dubious claim of "every single work of fiction ever" working the way you say, and the even more dubious implication that because other works do something THIS work has to do it, the whole point of the theory is that Vaarsuvius is operating under that very assumption, that what is going on is a "traditional" soul-selling. But reviewing the comic in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) suggests it may not be the case.

First V gives their definition of what they perceive the the deal to be, "eternal dominion over my immortal soul once I died." But the fiends shoot down this interpretation unequivocally. Because they've done this, the base assumptions V has about how the soul-selling works - namely that it's after they die - have no bearing on the fiends' actual deal. What they actually say is: "Each one of us will get your soul for the same amount of time that you are under the effects of the Soul Splice." There is nothing in there that states or even implies that said "getting of souls" occurs after death.

Seriously, your argument of other works not doing it so this work can't do it really just boggles my mind.

which is further enforced by them telling Quarr they cant influence the mortal plane unless there making a deal

This argument makes more sense, but what they say is that they can "only act directly" (Emphasis mine). How directly is defined is unclear; does taking control of V's soul count as directly acting on the mortal plane? Does it still fall under the paramaeters of "making a deal?" We don't know.

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

No, people think it because it would be an interesting plot twist. It doesn't mean it's definitely going to happen, but it's a theory that has merit as it would be completely in-keeping with the fiends to subtly twist the deal in such a way without V knowing about it.

Zmeoaice

2012-05-14, 10:25 PM

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

The fact that you consider it a possibility shows that it's not so impossible after all :smalltongue:

I'm not anglophone so I may be wrong, but I thought that if the Oracle had wanted to tell b he was not going to kill "the elf" he should have begin that sentence (mind the context) with "but" or maybe "while" or "though".

It's really just a continuation of his ramblings. Although using negative conjunctions would have made V's survial more likely (but not set, because he could be saying that Belkar would kill V directly unlike the others) his choice made the situation ambiguous. He's not much of a formal speaker anyways.

Forikroder

2012-05-14, 10:41 PM

This argument makes more sense, but what they say is that they can "only act directly" (Emphasis mine). How directly is defined is unclear; does taking control of V's soul count as directly acting on the mortal plane? Does it still fall under the paramaeters of "making a deal?" We don't know.
ya im pretty sure directly controlling someone on the mortal plane would be directly acting on the mortal plane and have nothing to do with making a deal

they pretty much straight looked at the camera and said "we can do absolutely nothing until V dies"

The fact that you consider it a possibility shows that it's not so impossible after all

except i dont consider it a possibility

Tricia

2012-05-14, 11:11 PM

they pretty much straight looked at the camera and said "we can do absolutely nothing until V dies"No, they didn't.

What they DID say was that everything would have gone to waste if Xykon had killed V. That seems to heavily imply that they need V alive for whatever their plans are.

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 12:19 AM

Zevox

2012-05-15, 02:02 AM

To be fair, not many of our forumites predicted a faustian bargain until Quarr showed up. And even then few because Quarr was a low-life nobody. Even less predicted V would get it when she did.
:smallconfused: Maybe you just missed the ones that did, because I know for certain the idea of V getting that power from a demon lord or archdevil came up well before Qarr did, and people were predicting pretty much exactly what happened (minus the ABD of course) from the moment we saw Qarr fly off after V in the aftermath of V's departure from the refugee fleet.

Zevox

Vulkos

2012-05-15, 02:59 AM

people only think the IFCC will control V while hes alive because everyone loves to make the most crazy impossible theories they can with no evidence or reasoning and then claim they saw it coming if it actually happens

You should be careful with making such strong statements, 'cause maybe tomorrow a new strip will be out with the IFCC taking control of V's soul and you could be mocked to death :D

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 04:26 PM

No, they didn't.

What they DID say was that everything would have gone to waste if Xykon had killed V. That seems to heavily imply that they need V alive for whatever their plans are.

uh ya because if Xykon jsut crushs V then nothing changes, he still sits in his tower, still does nothing and the only thing that changed is hes even more confmortable to be doing nothing because he just owned some uppity challenger

they needed V to do damage most likely they couldnt ahve cared less if Xykon had meteor swarmed him into ash since V had already made Xykon lose his phylactery and lit a fire on his ass

also if they can take over him... why havent they? why bother waiting? they can jsut chackle on the epic caster again and have him epic teleport or super planeshift where ever they need him to work his wizardly mojo and why not just use the 3 perfectly good epic level spellcaster souls they already have? what does Vs soul do that there souls dont?

i see no reason to believe the IFCC lied, they didnt really care taht much about Vs soul what they really wanted to do was wow there superiors and light a fire under Xykon getting Vs soul wasnt that important to them and i dont believe it serves anything insanely important since the small amount of time they get it for is more then enough for what they need it for and since Varsuvious lacks any special ability any other wizard could perform

You should be careful with making such strong statements, 'cause maybe tomorrow a new strip will be out with the IFCC taking control of V's soul and you could be mocked to death :D

we know 3 things about the IFCC, there very smart, they want tons of conflict and they have a long term plan to get them all extreme power

taking control of Vs soul doesnt make more conflict

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 05:28 PM

uh ya because if Xykon jsut crushs V then nothing changes, he still sits in his tower, still does nothing and the only thing that changed is hes even more confmortable to be doing nothing because he just owned some uppity challenger

they needed V to do damage most likely they couldnt ahve cared less if Xykon had meteor swarmed him into ash since V had already made Xykon lose his phylactery and lit a fire on his ass

Yeah, if you think that the IFCC were telling Qarr the whole truth in 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), I have some prime real estate on Mars to sell you. Yeah, they wanted Xykon to get moving, but that's almost certainly not their only goal (or even their primary goal, given that there was only a 84% of it happening) in the whole soul-splice episode. I mean, they're keeping awful close track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) of the time that they each get V's soul for. And, more importantly, they mention that that amount of time is more than sufficient for their purposes. That implies that they need V's soul for something, too. And, if they don't get it until after her death, what in the world could that possibly be? They already have plenty of damned souls if they want something to torture. They have the souls of more powerful spellcasters than V, if they want her for that. If they can't use it until after V's death, then her soul is just another soul, and potentially not even one they get to keep.

When I first read through the comics, I just assumed that they would control V's soul while she was still alive. I was mildly shocked to discover that there are people who thought that V would have to be dead first, and that V herself appeared to be one of them. The fact that V seems to think that they don't get her soul until she's dead just cements that view for me - the bad things that occur in pacts with fiends always comes from the fine print you didn't read, the clause you thought was implied, but was never explicitly said... the small thing you overlook. V was so prepared for her soul to be taken from her only after death that she didn't think to ask any questions about it. And so the fiends get away with their loophole.

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 05:38 PM

Yeah, if you think that the IFCC were telling Qarr the whole truth in 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), I have some prime real estate on Mars to sell you. Yeah, they wanted Xykon to get moving, but that's almost certainly not their only goal (or even their primary goal, given that there was only a 84% of it happening) in the whole soul-splice episode. I mean, they're keeping awful close track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) of the time that they each get V's soul for. And, more importantly, they mention that that amount of time is more than sufficient for their purposes. That implies that they need V's soul for something, too. And, if they don't get it until after her death, what in the world could that possibly be? They already have plenty of damned souls if they want something to torture. They have the souls of more powerful spellcasters than V, if they want her for that. If they can't use it until after V's death, then her soul is just another soul, and potentially not even one they get to keep.

When I first read through the comics, I just assumed that they would control V's soul while she was still alive. I was mildly shocked to discover that there are people who thought that V would have to be dead first, and that V herself appeared to be one of them. The fact that V seems to think that they don't get her soul until she's dead just cements that view for me - the bad things that occur in pacts with fiends always comes from the fine print you didn't read, the clause you thought was implied, but was never explicitly said... the small thing you overlook. V was so prepared for her soul to be taken from her only after death that she didn't think to ask any questions about it. And so the fiends get away with their loophole.

they kept close track? they hit the button on a stop watch and hit stop after he lost the splice dont make it sound like it was some insanely difficult and onconvenient method, you can even see him holding the stop watch, it was probably a really cool one with three faces just in case he lost them irregularily

to me it would ruin the IFCC if there was fine print and they pulled one over on V, they had been showed to be extremely intellegent, like Kira and L level intellegence, when you show a character like the giant showed them you know there going to be the final boss, there going to be the final arc, there death or defeat will be the final scene (with some unimportant wrap up afterwards) there shown to be the guys hiding in the shadows while everyone dances on there puppet strings

but if they did have fine print and pulled a fast one on V then there not any of that there jsut dumb generic demons who need to team up to even make the most basic of deals happen

whatever purpose they have planned for Vs soul, its going to be alot more complicated then just using his soul to go for a joy ride in the mortal plane and it is 100% going to be after he dies

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 05:50 PM

I see that you've added more points to your previous post, so let me respond to those first - how could V's soul cause conflict? Well, the IFCC could use it to take control of a Gate. Why haven't they taken control before now? Well, two reasons, really - first, the IFCC probably doesn't know where the Gates all are. They weren't even aware of their existence until Sabine told them about them (by way of Nale by way of Shojo), so it's fair to assume that they can't just have someone teleport to a Gate if they don't know where the Gate in question is. They're waiting for V to find the Gate first, because once they do take control, the timer's running. Secondly, I don't think that the IFCC can soul splice someone who is unwilling to give their consent to the procedure, which is exactly what V would become once they take control. So they would get V, at her present level and power. No more, no less. That's something that can cause a great deal of long-term damage if used strategically, but only if used strategically. They're waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger.

to me it would ruin the IFCC if there was fine print and they pulled one over on V, they had been showed to be extremely intellegent, like Kira and L level intellegence, when you show a character like the giant showed them you know there going to be the final boss, there going to be the final arc, there death or defeat will be the final scene (with some unimportant wrap up afterwards) there shown to be the guys hiding in the shadows while everyone dances on there puppet strings

but if they did have fine print and pulled a fast one on V then there not any of that there jsut dumb generic demons who need to team up to even make the most basic of deals happen

...what? How does it ruin the IFCC if it turns out that part of their plan involved tricking and manipulating V? Almost everything Kira and L did in that series, intelligence-wise, involved "pulling one over" on someone. That is how an intelligent character uses their intelligence, save for archetypal mad scientists. Wording an answer in such a way that the high-intelligence wizard doesn't notice that you've failed to give her a critical piece of information may be "pulling a fast one" but there's hardly anything cheap or dumb about it. I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than to note that the objection itself doesn't make sense to me.

whatever purpose they have planned for Vs soul, its going to be alot more complicated then just using his soul to go for a joy ride in the mortal plane and it is 100% going to be after he dies

Very well. We shall see what we shall see.

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 06:34 PM

Well, the IFCC could use it to take control of a Gate

if they wanted a gate why would they put a plan into action to make Xykon move onto the gates instead of giving the soul splices to Z to take over a gate

at this point i find it very unlikely they want a gate since literally every action weve ever seen them do is to make it as hard as possible for people to take control of a gate i mean they literally picked there minions to be as useless as possible

so it's fair to assume that they can't just have someone teleport to a Gate if they don't know where the Gate in question is.

if only they had a mole (sabine) situated right next to someone who knows exactly where the gates are (Nale)

So they would get V, at her present level and power. No more, no less. That's something that can cause a great deal of long-term damage if used strategically, but only if used strategically. They're waiting for the right moment to pull the trigger.

V isnt anywhere close to epic, unlike the magic that made and defends the gate, no spells V has access to can touch the gates and it would probably take V months to create a spell that could affect the gates, they have control of V for under an hour, its impossible to use V to take control of a gate

...what? How does it ruin the IFCC if it turns out that part of their plan involved tricking and manipulating V? Almost everything Kira and L did in that series, intelligence-wise, involved "pulling one over" on someone. That is how an intelligent character uses their intelligence, save for archetypal mad scientists. Wording an answer in such a way that the high-intelligence wizard doesn't notice that you've failed to give her a critical piece of information may be "pulling a fast one" but there's hardly anything cheap or dumb about it. I'm not even sure how to respond to this, other than to note that the objection itself doesn't make sense to me.

because there plan wouldnt ahve required intelligence, it wasnt smooth talking it was just offering V a huge wad of power and putting in fine print which they explicatly state they dont have

its not being smart its not being intelligent any demon could ahve pulled it off do you really think that fits there characters? for them to go "hey guys, i got this brilliant plan, lets offer him some soul splices and trick him into letting us possess him" "dude were such evil geniuses"

Very well. We shall see what we shall see.

and i intend to gloat when im proven right

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 06:57 PM

if they wanted a gate why would they put a plan into action to make Xykon move onto the gates instead of giving the soul splices to Z to take over a gate

Xykon actually wants the Gate for his own purposes, so no dice there. If Xykon did take possession of a Gate, he sure as heck wouldn't just fall in line behind the IFCC and do whatever they tell him.

if only they had a mole (sabine) situated right next to someone who knows exactly where the gates are (Nale)

Yeah, that would be hugely convenient. Too bad that Nale doesn't know exactly where the Gates are.

V isnt anywhere close to epic, unlike the magic that made and defends the gate, no spells V has access to can touch the gates and it would probably take V months to create a spell that could affect the gates, they have control of V for under an hour, its impossible to use V to take control of a gate

It's true, I don't know exactly what they plan to do with V once they take the gate, although I suspect that Sabine probably weighs heavily here. It's fairly obvious that V cannot herself perform the binding ritual, even if the IFCC knew the ritual (which they probably do not). Maybe they just plan for V to help put the Gate in the hands of their Linear Guild dupes (although I suspect that they probably have a better plan than that). But acting here makes a whole lot more sense than them wanting a few arbitrary minutes of V's soul in hell, where it is of absolutely no use to them.

because there plan wouldnt ahve required intelligence, it wasnt smooth talking it was just offering V a huge wad of power and putting in fine print which they explicatly state they dont have

its not being smart its not being intelligent any demon could ahve pulled it off do you really think that fits there characters? for them to go "hey guys, i got this brilliant plan, lets offer him some soul splices and trick him into letting us possess him" "dude were such evil geniuses"

"Fine print" isn't the right phrase. It's more a very carefully selected sin of omission. And yes, I suppose any fiend could possibly have tricked V into accepting a vaguely worded deal (although there were no other fiend with the power to offer a single soul, let alone three, that's not really my point). My point is, it isn't in the temptation that they're being clever. The con itself is fairly textbook. But the plan which the con is a part of is sweeping, and could only be put together by some very powerful, very intelligent fiends with a lot of resources to throw around. They've managed to insert a sleeper agent within the very party of adventurers that is out to save the world from exactly the kind of threat they represent! How does that not scream "Evil Geniuses" to you?

and i intend to gloat when im proven right

Very well. I shall remember you said that, and hope you won't take it as poor sportsmanship if I remind you of it incessantly should I turn out to be correct. :smallbiggrin:

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 07:05 PM

Xykon actually wants the Gate for his own purposes, so no dice there. If Xykon did take possession of a Gate, he sure as heck wouldn't just fall in line behind the IFCC and do whatever they tell him.

exactly, they wwould ahve wanted him to sit on his ass if they wanted a gate they purposely put him back into play

Yeah, that would be hugely convenient. Too bad that Nale doesn't know exactly where the Gates are.

except he does cause he was there when Roy talked to Shojo the second time, and thenSabine went to the IFCC after learning all the details
(will post more in 20~ minutes)

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 07:12 PM

exactly, they wwould ahve wanted him to sit on his ass if they wanted a gate they purposely put him back into play

Surely you don't think that the IFCC wants Xykon to have a Gate? That would end just as badly for them as it would for everyone else. They've got some other sort of complicated machination going on here.

except he does cause he was there when Roy talked to Shojo the second time, and thenSabine went to the IFCC after learning all the details

No, he doesn't. Roy doesn't know exactly where the gates are, he only has their approximate coordinates, and at least one of those was totally wrong. And that's assuming that Roy was given the coordinates in the conversation that Nale was around for, which might not be the case.

All that aside, I think you're ignoring the most crucial point here. In the IFCC's deal with V, nowhere is it explicitly stated that they can only take V's soul after death. It is only stated that they get to control it for a short length of time, there is no mention of when that control must occur. If the fiends didn't say it, then it's not part of the deal. Period. They could take possession of V's soul at any time, alive or dead, and they would be perfectly within their legal rights.

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 07:46 PM

Surely you don't think that the IFCC wants Xykon to have a Gate? That would end just as badly for them as it would for everyone else. They've got some other sort of complicated machination going on here.

are you trolling?

IF THEY DIDNT WANT HIM TO BE TRYING TO GET A GATE, THEN THEY WOULDNT HAVE SOLD THE SPLICES TO VAARSUVIOUS WICH THEY ANTICIPATED TO CAUSE HIM TO START GOING AFTER THE GATES AGAINST

for some reason it benefits the IFCC greatly to have alot of people fighting i think the gates are just the easiest way for them to get the strongest people fighting each other

if they had just let Vaarsuvious's family die or give him jsut enough power to only kill Xykon and not enough to penetrate the cloister then Xykon would have stayed in Azure city until Redcloak had grown it to a metropolis

No, he doesn't. Roy doesn't know exactly where the gates are, he only has their approximate coordinates, and at least one of those was totally wrong. And that's assuming that Roy was given the coordinates in the conversation that Nale was around for, which might not be the case.

roy specifically saids he knows Nale knows where the gate is, i can link the comic if need be

and again, Sabine has been haning with Nale who was the first to know the gate was in the windy cavern

All that aside, I think you're ignoring the most crucial point here. In the IFCC's deal with V, nowhere is it explicitly stated that they can only take V's soul after death. It is only stated that they get to control it for a short length of time, there is no mention of when that control must occur. If the fiends didn't say it, then it's not part of the deal. Period. They could take possession of V's soul at any time, alive or dead, and they would be perfectly within their legal rights.

and would be fine text which means instead of being extremely smart powerful demons who are able to completely manipulate people without lieing and telling them straight up becuase there that smart there jsut regular run of the mill demons who just hide everything in fine text because there too dumb to trick people legit

It's true, I don't know exactly what they plan to do with V once they take the gate, although I suspect that Sabine probably weighs heavily here. It's fairly obvious that V cannot herself perform the binding ritual, even if the IFCC knew the ritual (which they probably do not). Maybe they just plan for V to help put the Gate in the hands of their Linear Guild dupes (although I suspect that they probably have a better plan than that). But acting here makes a whole lot more sense than them wanting a few arbitrary minutes of V's soul in hell, where it is of absolutely no use to them.

they would have to create there own ritual, Redcloaks ritual gives it to the Dark One regardless of the caster so theyd either need to create there own ritual or a diety create one for them

and Vs soul has no use for them in the mortal plane either, hes a non-epic spellcaster he cant do very much alone especially in only 45 minutes

and if the plan was for the Linear guild to get them a gate they wouldnt have picked the linear guild as there stoogies because they were imcompetent they would ahve spent the time to find competent adventurers to get the work done

although there were no other fiend with the power to offer a single soul, let alone three, that's not really my point

im pretty sure there are plenty of fiends who could ahve offered V at least one souls worth of power and V could ahve killed the ABD with only one soul, i mean V essentially one shot her with the shapechange trick, the only reason he was given all 3 as because hed need them to fight Xykon

The con itself is fairly textbook. But the plan which the con is a part of is sweeping, and could only be put together by some very powerful, very intelligent fiends with a lot of resources to throw around

no it could have been thrown together and executed by any run of the mill demon

They've managed to insert a sleeper agent within the very party of adventurers that is out to save the world from exactly the kind of threat they represent!

no they didnt plant a sleeper agent into that kind of party because the OoTS is doing nothing to stop the IFCCs plans

also V does not count as a sleeper agent

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 08:54 PM

are you trolling?

IF THEY DIDNT WANT HIM TO BE TRYING TO GET A GATE, THEN THEY WOULDNT HAVE SOLD THE SPLICES TO VAARSUVIOUS WICH THEY ANTICIPATED TO CAUSE HIM TO START GOING AFTER THE GATES AGAINST

for some reason it benefits the IFCC greatly to have alot of people fighting i think the gates are just the easiest way for them to get the strongest people fighting each other

...*sigh*

No, Forikroder. I'm not trolling. Please refrain from assuming the worst of anybody who doesn't agree with your analysis. What I am doing is looking at the situation with some nuance. Think about it. The IFCC wants Xykon to be attempting to claim a Gate. But under no circumstances do they actually want him to get one. Xykon has no more love for the forces of Evil than he does for the forces of Good. The IFCC wants Xykon in play, but they don't want him to take the Gate. It's as simple as that.

And I think you're greatly overstating the argument that the IFCC benefits from having people fight each other. As I said before, if you think that their conversation with Qarr was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I suspect you're in for a shock. The IFCC has a bigger plan than "just make everyone fight each other".

roy specifically saids he knows Nale knows where the gate is, i can link the comic if need be

and again, Sabine has been haning with Nale who was the first to know the gate was in the windy cavern

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html) is the comic you're looking for. He says that Nale knows about the Gates, not that Nale knows where the Gates are. At best, Nale knows as much about where the Gates are as Roy does: he has one set of incorrect coordinates, and one set of coordinates that has yet to be verified. And he may not even have that, depending on when it was Shojo gave Roy the exact coordinates. Nale, Sabine, and Z were able to narrow down the location to the Windy Canyon, but since Nale had decided not to leave yet, and the Directors can only act on the mortal plane via their pawns anyway, it doesn't help them much. Even if Sabine was relaying to them every word Nale said, the Directors can't FORCE Nale to get a move on. They control them, as you are so fond of pointing out, with subtle manipulation rather than direct force. This time, it worked against them.

and would be fine text which means instead of being extremely smart powerful demons who are able to completely manipulate people without lieing and telling them straight up becuase there that smart there jsut regular run of the mill demons who just hide everything in fine text because there too dumb to trick people legit

I'm clearly not going to argue you out of this one, as it appears to be just a difference of opinion. I think it is entirely possible for the IFCC to be awesome even though they effectively pulled a double-bluff against V. They didn't quite lie, but V sure didn't ask the right questions, and they weren't about to volunteer the extra information. I suspect V might have taken their offer anyway even if they had, but that, again, is immaterial. My point is: you agree that there is nothing whatsoever in the wording of the contract that explicitly precludes them from taking V's soul whenever they want?

they would have to create there own ritual, Redcloaks ritual gives it to the Dark One regardless of the caster so theyd either need to create there own ritual or a diety create one for them

But they don't know that, do they! They know what Shojo knew about the Gates, and they know what the Order knew about the Gates until they figured out that Nale wasn't Elan and threw him in prison. That includes their knowledge that Xykon wants one of the Gates so that he can control it. They have no way of knowing that Xykon himself is mistaken about what his own ritual does.

and Vs soul has no use for them in the mortal plane either, hes a non-epic spellcaster he cant do very much alone especially in only 45 minutes

A level 14-16 Wizard can't do very much against a party of similiarly-leveled characters in 45 minutes? I find that statement... questionable.

and if the plan was for the Linear guild to get them a gate they wouldnt have picked the linear guild as there stoogies because they were imcompetent they would ahve spent the time to find competent adventurers to get the work done

Again, I think you're attaching too much significance to what was basically an flippant offhand remark by one of the directors. After all, we know Nale has serious potential. Eeeeeevil potential. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)

im pretty sure there are plenty of fiends who could ahve offered V at least one souls worth of power and V could ahve killed the ABD with only one soul, i mean V essentially one shot her with the shapechange trick, the only reason he was given all 3 as because hed need them to fight Xykon

no it could have been thrown together and executed by any run of the mill demon

Given that the soul splice itself is said by the directors to be a special once-in-a-century deal, I'm inclined to think you're wrong about this, but neither one of us really has enough hard evidence to back up a position either way. I suppose it's possible V could have bargained for some other way to kill the dragon.

no they didnt plant a sleeper agent into that kind of party because the OoTS is doing nothing to stop the IFCCs plans

also V does not count as a sleeper agent

This statement is only true if we accept your notion of what the IFCC's plans are to be true. If my version is correct, then V is in fact the perfect sleeper agent... despite the fact that she cannot sleep. :smallcool:

Whiffet

2012-05-15, 08:56 PM

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 09:03 PM

... so.

That Oracle. He's an interesting guy, huh?

I would like to see what happens when the druid kills him in the future. You know, the druid who won't take it well when he finds out what his wife and animal companion are up to. I don't expect to find out, but I bet it would be entertaining.

...wow, we derailed that this thread by a lot, didn't we? My apologies.

Yeah, I kind of wish that the Oracle had gotten one of the backer's PDF's. I would have loved to have seen that story.

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 09:19 PM

No, Forikroder. I'm not trolling. Please refrain from assuming the worst of anybody who doesn't agree with your analysis. What I am doing is looking at the situation with some nuance. Think about it. The IFCC wants Xykon to be attempting to claim a Gate. But under no circumstances do they actually want him to get one. Xykon has no more love for the forces of Evil than he does for the forces of Good. The IFCC wants Xykon in play, but they don't want him to take the Gate. It's as simple as that.

And I think you're greatly overstating the argument that the IFCC benefits from having people fight each other. As I said before, if you think that their conversation with Qarr was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, I suspect you're in for a shock. The IFCC has a bigger plan than "just make everyone fight each other".

ya no duh, but that plan is probably not take a gate because they had the whole time that team evil and the OoTS were doing nothing right after Azure city that they could have been working on actually GETTING a gate instead of working on helping Xykon by giving him a kick in the pants

somehow there being conflict helps them get insane power, but its unlikely its through harnessing a gate

At best, Nale knows as much about where the Gates are as Roy does: he has one set of incorrect coordinates, and one set of coordinates that has yet to be verified

well, considering that Nale was the FIRST ONE to figure out that the gate was in the windy cavern (even if it was by figuring out every place it wasnt) and theres no evidence to suggest that the kraagars gate coordinates are at all false, we can say with 100% certainty that the IFCC knew exaclty where both gates were far before the OoTS knew and they might have known the draketooths were dead so if they were going to have V claim a gate for them they would have done it then but they didnt

also unlike Girard, Serini had no reason to lie to Soon she didnt hate his guts and wanted everyone to work together to guard the gates but realised they had to split the party, also since she was the only member not physically at the gate guarding it she would have wanted everyone else to be able to get there ASAP just in case

They didn't quite lie

yes they did, they told V there was no fine text and everything was above board while there actually was fine text and everything was not above board, they said they had nothing to hide (which in your scenario they did)

B
ut they don't know that, do they

if they know about team evil to know the ritual exists then they know enough to know its not an option they can go after since theyd know the ritual came straight from the dark one

and if they got the ritual then just like Tsukiko (only a hell of alot faster) theyd realise the ritual was a trap

so either they know Redcloaks ritual exists and know they cant use it, they dont know his ritual exists and came up with there own spell or there not planning to take control fo the snarl

A level 14-16 Wizard can't do very much against a party of similiarly-leveled characters in 45 minutes? I find that statement... questionable.

okay lets say V somehow manages to slaughter the order of the stick.... so what? then Xykon shows up owns the LG and the DArk One gets the gate, game over

Again, I think you're attaching too much significance to what was basically an flippant offhand remark by one of the directors. After all, we know Nale has serious potential. Eeeeeevil potential.

ya cause if anyone is not a biased source its Sabine, Sabine has feelings for Nale, you really think the IFCC is gonna say "hey go watch over this cannon fodder until he dies some gruesome death k?"

Given that the soul splice itself is said by the directors to be a special once-in-a-century deal, I'm inclined to think you're wrong about this, but neither one of us really has enough hard evidence to back up a position either way. I suppose it's possible V could have bargained for some other way to kill the dragon.

its a once in a century deal because of all the amazing power it offers someone with a soul splice becomes pretty much Xykons equal, and Xykon has the capacity to kill an entire army and take control of a country by himself not many demons with access to giving a soul splice would find someone able and willing to offer the demon something of equal value

This statement is only true if we accept your notion of what the IFCC's plans are to be true. If my version is correct, then V is in fact the perfect sleeper agent... despite the fact that she cannot sleep

V is not a sleeper agent because the IFCC have no way to communicate with V and can only (possibly) activate V once, thats not a sleeper agent thats just mind controlling someone its only a sleeper agent if you were the one who put them in a group in the first place but removed there knowledge of it and set it up so you can continuously remote activate or communicate with the sleeper agent to sabotage or get intel

since the IFCC can do and did none of that V is not a sleeper agent

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 09:56 PM

ya no duh, but that plan is probably not take a gate because they had the whole time that team evil and the OoTS were doing nothing right after Azure city that they could have been working on actually GETTING a gate instead of working on helping Xykon by giving him a kick in the pants

somehow there being conflict helps them get insane power, but its unlikely its through harnessing a gate

...what makes you think that they haven't been working nonstop since the fall of Azure City to find a Gate? If they had Sabine nudge the Liner Guild over to the Western Continent, it is entirely possible that they spent that entire length of time trying to find the Gate, first by going to their (incorrect) coordinates, and then by spending months scrying. In fact, since we know that the did spend months scrying, I'm inclinded to think that this is exactly what they did. It makes more sense than some half-mentioned quote about deriving power from conflict, which I think is just more eluding to the fact that suffering brings evil which brings power to the fiends and so on and so forth.

well, considering that Nale was the FIRST ONE to figure out that the gate was in the windy cavern (even if it was by figuring out every place it wasnt) and theres no evidence to suggest that the kraagars gate coordinates are at all false, we can say with 100% certainty that the IFCC knew exaclty where both gates were far before the OoTS knew and they might have known the draketooths were dead so if they were going to have V claim a gate for them they would have done it then but they didnt

Please stop claiming to know things with 100% certainty when we know nothing of the sort. It took Nale months to find the Windy Canyon, and he wasn't about to leave without dealing with his father. As far as Kraagor's gate there are two options: either Soon got the coorrdinates from straight from Serini, in which case they are legitimate, or Soon got them from the party member whose job it was to make all the maps: Girard. In which case they are probably also fake. Admittedly, I think the first is more likely than the second, but we can't rule out the second, so we don't know with 100% certainty that the coorrdinates for Kraagor's gate are correct, either.

yes they did, they told V there was no fine text and everything was above board while there actually was fine text and everything was not above board, they said they had nothing to hide (which in your scenario they did)

Everything they said was totally on the level. V just didn't ask the one salient question. Just like they knew she wouldn't. But even if she had asked, I think they would have told her straight up. I suspect that V would have taken the deal even knowing that stipulation. Although I have no evidence to support that, my gut says that the overly emotional (at that moment) V would have taken the deal anyway. The point is that there is nothing in the agreed-upon text of the deal that prevents the fiends from controlling a still-living V.

if they know about team evil to know the ritual exists then they know enough to know its not an option they can go after since theyd know the ritual came straight from the dark one

and if they got the ritual then just like Tsukiko (only a hell of alot faster) theyd realise the ritual was a trap

so either they know Redcloaks ritual exists and know they cant use it, they dont know his ritual exists and came up with there own spell or there not planning to take control fo the snarl

Wow. You are assuming an awful lot of knowledge on the part of the IFCC that they have shown no signs of actually having. The only source of info about the Gates that we *know* they have is Nale, and by extension Roy and Shojo. If they had the degree of omniscience you're prescribing to them here, I'm amazed that they didn't know about the Gates before Nale told them.

okay lets say V somehow manages to slaughter the order of the stick.... so what? then Xykon shows up owns the LG and the DArk One gets the gate, game over

At this point I would anticipate the IFCC doing something really clever, but as I have no clear idea of what, I can't really rebut this completely.

ya cause if anyone is not a biased source its Sabine, Sabine has feelings for Nale, you really think the IFCC is gonna say "hey go watch over this cannon fodder until he dies some gruesome death k?"

its a once in a century deal because of all the amazing power it offers someone with a soul splice becomes pretty much Xykons equal, and Xykon has the capacity to kill an entire army and take control of a country by himself not many demons with access to giving a soul splice would find someone able and willing to offer the demon something of equal value

You can assert those things if you want, but there's really no evidence for either of them (there is, however, also no evidence against either of them). Do we know that Sabine's feelings for Nale predate their working relationship? Or did she develop them only after she was assigned to work with him? Without knowing that, we can't make any judgement on the first argument. The second is speculation with no possibility of verification.

V is not a sleeper agent because the IFCC have no way to communicate with V and can only (possibly) activate V once, thats not a sleeper agent thats just mind controlling someone its only a sleeper agent if you were the one who put them in a group in the first place but removed there knowledge of it and set it up so you can continuously remote activate or communicate with the sleeper agent to sabotage or get intel

since the IFCC can do and did none of that V is not a sleeper agent

*ahem*

In fiction, particularly science fiction, sleeper agents fall into two categories. The first is an extension of the real world sleeper agent where an enemy agent is substituted for a person already in a trusted position. The second and more common category involve people who have been subjected to mind control techniques, such as drugs, torture, psychological conditioning, implanted devices, and even telepathic manipulation who then are either released, or allowed to escape back to friendly territory. These sleeper agents are then used by enemy forces to spy, to conduct sabotage, to assassinate certain targets, or for other operations the enemy has in mind for them. During these outbreaks, the sleeper agent doesn't normally know what he/she is doing.

V clearly fits in the second category.

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 10:14 PM

If they had Sabine nudge the Liner Guild over to the Western Continent

which they didnt, Sabine straight saids to Quarr that she doesnt try to influence what Nale does at all and it was Nales stepmother's storys he remembered that caused them to go there

if they sent the LG to the Desert they wouldnt make Xykon start heading towards the desert too theyd want him to sit in Azure city

besides anyone with a brain would have gone to Kraagars gate after finding out soons coordinates were false

he wasn't about to leave without dealing with his father.

uh yes he was, there was nothing stopping him from ignoring the OoTS and just leaving the capital and going to the gate and Tarquin would never have known about it at all, but Nales not that smart

Everything they said was totally on the level

aside from when they said there was no fine text and they had nothing to hide

Wow. You are assuming an awful lot of knowledge on the part of the IFCC that they have shown no signs of actually having. The only source of info about the Gates that we *know* they have is Nale, and by extension Roy and Shojo. If they had the degree of omniscience you're prescribing to them here, I'm amazed that they didn't know about the Gates before Nale told them.

im not assuming anything, either they know about redcloaks ritual and have given up on taking it

or they know/are working on there own ritual

or figured out a way to succeed in there goal without a ritual

those are the only 3 possible scenarios

At this point I would anticipate the IFCC doing something really clever, but as I have no clear idea of what, I can't really rebut this completely.

probably smack there knees and laugh at how dumb those humans are based on what level of intelligence you seem to think they possess

Do we know that Sabine's feelings for Nale predate their working relationship?

shes a Succubus, they wouldnt send her to a human with high charisma and tell them that humans only job is to cause as much unnecesary conflict without him knowing until he dies

plus Sabine saids the line about his evil potential well before the actual story was written so its canonical weight could be brought into question

and saying he has evil potential doesnt contradict what the IFCC said since causing unnecesary conflict is evil so they did think he had evil potential jsut mroe belkars style of evil instead of redcloak

V clearly fits in the second category.

no V doesnt because right now V is trying to work against the IFCC by reforming himself and attoning for his crimes, his actions are in no way being controlled or influenced by the IFCC

a sleeper agent you only control for 40 minutes is not a sleeper agent and since the IFCC have not yet done any mind control or any sort of mind altering to V he does not fit in the second category

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 11:04 PM

which they didnt, Sabine straight saids to Quarr that she doesnt try to influence what Nale does at all and it was Nales stepmother's storys he remembered that caused them to go there

if they sent the LG to the Desert they wouldnt make Xykon start heading towards the desert too theyd want him to sit in Azure city

besides anyone with a brain would have gone to Kraagars gate after finding out soons coordinates were false

Terrific! Then we know that Nale went to the Western Continent of his own volition, and the IFCC didn't have to prod him at all! This fits my theory even better. Why bother to prod a pawn when he does what you want without being asked. As to why they didn't head straight for Kraagor's gate, I have a few suggestions:

a. What I've been suggesting all along is true, and Nale wasn't there when Shojo gave Roy the coordinates at all. That happened in a separate off-panel conversation. Nale can't go to Kraagor's coordinates, because he doesn't know what they are. But he does know the name Draketooth, and he's got a good source of information to help with the scrying.

b. The Kraagor coordinates are bad too. They tired them out, went back to the desert, and started scrying because they at least had a familiar name to work with.

c. The Karaagor coordinates are not bad, but Nale assumes that they are. See part b.

Now, a. seems like it is far and away the most likely, and it explains Nale's behaviour entirely. In fact, I think that a. is probably true whichever theory actually turns out to be true. Nale doesn't know any coordinates, he only knows the name Draketooth.

uh yes he was, there was nothing stopping him from ignoring the OoTS and just leaving the capital and going to the gate and Tarquin would never have known about it at all, but Nales not that smart

*sigh* He wasn't about to leave for a number of reasons. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html)

aside from when they said there was no fine text and they had nothing to hide

Right! There is no "fine text". Because there is no "text" at all. It was all technically true. Maybe "We have nothing to hide" was a little bit of a stretch, but, you know, fiends have never been known to stretch the truth at all! ...except for that part where we already know that they did (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html).

im not assuming anything, either they know about redcloaks ritual and have given up on taking it

or they know/are working on there own ritual

or figured out a way to succeed in there goal without a ritual

those are the only 3 possible scenarios

Well, you're assuming that they know quite a lot of background information on Redcloak and Xykon, but either way, you're wrong:

Secnario 4 - They believe the Redcloak and Xykon have a ritual that controls the snarl. They do not know that it gives control to The Dark One. They believe this ritual to work as Xykon thinks it works, and they think they can get their hands on it somehow.

This is the scenario I anticipate.

probably smack there knees and laugh at how dumb those humans are based on what level of intelligence you seem to think they possess

Given as I am not the one whose vision of the IFCC fluctuates wildly between subtle, cunning manipulators and hamfisted micromanagers whenever it is convenient for my theory, I'd be careful about uncharitable readings of other people's posts.

shes a Succubus, they wouldnt send her to a human with high charisma and tell them that humans only job is to cause as much unnecesary conflict without him knowing until he dies

plus Sabine saids the line about his evil potential well before the actual story was written so its canonical weight could be brought into question

and saying he has evil potential doesnt contradict what the IFCC said since causing unnecesary conflict is evil so they did think he had evil potential jsut mroe belkars style of evil instead of redcloak

Actually, no. The comic in question is number 62. Commentary states that the idea for the actual story began around the 50's. And you're assuming things about Sabine without any reason to. There are two scenarios:

a. She is assigned by her superiors to monitor Nale, based on his Eeeeeevil potential. She falls in love with him in the course of doing her job. She is biased, but the Eeeeeeevil potential still exists, because it predates her being assigned to the job. The remark is valid.

b. She is in love with Nale, and is assigned to... try to work on making him cause unnecessary conflict, I guess. She is biased, and her bias makes her an unreliable source. The remark is potentially invalid.

Based on how we've seen the IFCC work to date, I think the former is more likely, given their apparently bureaucratic nature.

no V doesnt because right now V is trying to work against the IFCC by reforming himself and attoning for his crimes, his actions are in no way being controlled or influenced by the IFCC

a sleeper agent you only control for 40 minutes is not a sleeper agent and since the IFCC have not yet done any mind control or any sort of mind altering to V he does not fit in the second category

Yes! That's it! You've got it! V is working against the IFCC right now, but, at the drop of a hat, they get to control her mind for 40 minutes! They can then make her sabotage her current objective to their heart's content for the duration of those 40 minutes! You do not need to turn coat permanently to be a sleeper agent. A sleeper agent you control for only 40 minutes absolutely IS a sleeper agent. Have you ever seen "Battlestar Galactica"? "The Manchurian Candidate"? "Serenity"? Any piece of fiction where someone has a code word that makes them flip out and kill things? Guess what? THEY WERE A SLEEPER AGENT! That's what we're talking about here. The time limit is completely meaningless and is not integral to any definition of a sleeper agent.

Forikroder

2012-05-15, 11:29 PM

Terrific! Then we know that Nale went to the Western Continent of his own volition, and the IFCC didn't have to prod him at all! This fits my theory even better. Why bother to prod a pawn when he does what you want without being asked.

you ahve yet to prove at all that Nale is there pawn, i dont think hes there pawn hes just some loose cannon they let loose so noone looks at them, since hes not actually doing aything for them hes not really a pawn anymore then team evil or the OoTS is there pawn

a. What I've been suggesting all along is true, and Nale wasn't there when Shojo gave Roy the coordinates at all. That happened in a separate off-panel conversation. Nale can't go to Kraagor's coordinates, because he doesn't know what they are. But he does know the name Draketooth, and he's got a good source of information to help with the scrying.

which is demonstratable untrue from a comic you yourself linked

b. The Kraagor coordinates are bad too. They tired them out, went back to the desert, and started scrying because they at least had a familiar name to work with.

complete guess with absoluetly no proof at all or even anything that slightly implies it might at all be false, they had the correct coordinates for Durkon and Lirians gate after all

Now, a. seems like it is far and away the most likely, and it explains Nale's behaviour entirely

heres a better reason, hes jsut that stupid

Nale has demonstrated absolutely no competence at anything for the entirety of the comic even failing to beat Elan in a one on one duel

his first sneak attack on the order failed miserably despite him having every advantage

in Azure city he gave up his one shot at evening the battlefield by taking out V and Elan by simply not talking at all like elan and falling for an easy trick from V

in the desert instead of just leaving when the Order apears he decides to jsut attack them and instead of leaving after losing his entire team he decides to hang around invisible and hope noone notices

Nale is quite simply that dumb even if the Kraagar coordinates are wrong, there would still be less area to search to find it then searching the entire desert by scrying and the defences on Kraagars are far weaker then Girards since the epic level party member isnt palying house there

*sigh* He wasn't about to leave for a number of reasons.

your link in no way explains why (or at least nowhere near anything a reasonable person would concider a good explanation) Nale didnt leave the capital after learning what he wanted to know instead of picking a fight with a stronger force in the middle of his worst enemys house

Right! There is no "fine text". Because there is no "text" at all. It was all technically true. Maybe "We have nothing to hide" was a little bit of a stretch, but, you know, fiends have never been known to stretch the truth at all in the pursuit of a Faustian Pact! Especially when we already know that they did.

the fact you are trying to reach so much proves that you have already realised im right in fact they didnt lie when they said his alignment might be affected since his alignment quite clearly was affected since he considered familicide a good response

Secnario 4 - They believe the Redcloak and Xykon have a ritual that controls the snarl. They do not know that it gives control to The Dark One. They believe this ritual to work as Xykon thinks it works, and they think they can get their hands on it somehow.

which is absolutely ridiculous to assume since they have literally no information on the ritual or any reason to assume it is in any way inscribed and they have no idea what sort of items would be needed or any special feats or other spellcasters would be needed

Actually, no. The comic in question is number 62. Commentary states that the idea for the actual story began around the 50's. And you're assuming things about Sabine without any reason to. There are two scenarios:

a. She is assigned by her superiors to monitor Nale, based on his Eeeeeevil potential. She falls in love with him in the course of doing her job. She is biased, but the Eeeeeeevil potential still exists, because it predates her being assigned to the job. The remark is valid.

b. She is in love with Nale, and is assigned to... try to work on making him cause unnecessary conflict, I guess. She is biased, and her bias makes her an unreliable source. The remark is potentially invalid.

Based on how we've seen the IFCC work to date, I think the former is more likely, given their apparently bureaucratic nature.

right, evil potential to cause lots of unnecesary conflict but no potential to actually suceed in doing anything important

at the drop of a hat, they get to control her mind for 40 minutes

possibly gain control of V

but that still does not make V a sleeper agent anymore then the Kobold V controlled was a sleeper agent or Thanh was a sleeper agent

rgrekejin

2012-05-15, 11:57 PM

you ahve yet to prove at all that Nale is there pawn, i dont think hes there pawn hes just some loose cannon they let loose so noone looks at them, since hes not actually doing aything for them hes not really a pawn anymore then team evil or the OoTS is there pawn

It's right there in yellow and black. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) Nale doesn't know he's their pawn, but the IFCC considers him and the rest of the Guild their pawns.

which is demonstratable untrue from a comic you yourself linked

Alright. Let me take you through this very slowly.

Nale knows about the Gates. He learned about them when he was pretending to be Elan in Azure City. He can be safely assumed to know everything from the "Crayons of Time" section. He knows about the Snarl. He knows about the members of the Order of the Scribble. What he does NOT know is the exact coordinates of the Gates. Only Roy knows that.

After escaping Azure City, Nale heads out to the Western Continent to track down his stepmother. Why? Because she knows a Draketooth. Nale does not know where the Gates are, exactly, but he knows a Draketooth is guarding one. So he uses his stepmother to help Z scry for the Draketooth. This lets him eliminate everywhere but the Windy Canyon. So Nale knows exactly one Gate location, and he doesn't even know that one all that precisely. But, rather than head off right for the Gate, he decides to stay in the city. Why? Probably one of those reasons Tarquin mentioned in the comic I linked to last time. Nale doesn't want to leave yet because he's an egomaniac and wants to hear what his father has to say about him. Or whatever. It's not a good reason, but it is a reason. Nale DOES NOT know anything about any of the Gate's locations beyond what he and Z have been able to put together through scrying. Does that make sense? Does anything in the comic contradict it? This is why choice A is almost certainly right. Choice B and C are merely redundant backups with no proof behind them, but that doesn't matter because choice A is almost certainly true.

When we see Roy in the Arena, he states that Nale "might know about the gates". That's all. He never says that Nale knows where the Gates are, just that he knows they exist. So, in all likelihood, Nale does not have the coordinates for either gate. It makes *much* more sense than assuming that he's just being completely comically stupid at a juncture where the comic trying to be mildly serious. He's not ignoring the other set of coordinates. He just doesn't have them. He's making use of the only useful bit of info he has: the name "Draketooth".

your link in no way explains why (or at least nowhere near anything a reasonable person would concider a good explanation) Nale didnt leave the capital after learning what he wanted to know instead of picking a fight with a stronger force in the middle of his worst enemys house

"Because Nale has psychological issues and a massive superiority complex" wasn't a good enough explanation for you? Alright, but it works for me.

the fact you are trying to reach so much proves that you have already realised im right in fact they didnt lie when they said his alignment might be affected since his alignment quite clearly was affected since he considered familicide a good response

You completely missed the point of that comic. The splices had no control over V's alignment. None. That is explicitly said. That's why what V did was so shocking and horrific. I'm not even going to get in to this argument with you. They flat-out admit they lied to V about the splices affecting her alignment. Period.

which is absolutely ridiculous to assume since they have literally no information on the ritual or any reason to assume it is in any way inscribed and they have no idea what sort of items would be needed or any special feats or other spellcasters would be needed

They know what the Order knows. And the Order seems to know that Redcloak and Xykon have some magical way of controlling the Gate. If that's all the IFCC know, then it makes complete sense for them to think they can use it for their own ends. I don't even understand the argument you're making here... the less specific knowledge the IFCC has about how the Gate is magically controlled, the more likely they are to think it can be bent to serve their purposes. And you're arguing that they know nothing about the ritual. This supports my point, not yours.

possibly gain control of V

but that still does not make V a sleeper agent anymore then the Kobold V controlled was a sleeper agent or Thanh was a sleeper agent

No. Those two were dominated in the course of combat. V has been planted ahead of time with some specific trigger to set her off. That's what make her a sleeper and the other ones not - V was planted ahead of time to be activated later.

Porthos

2012-05-16, 02:45 AM

What exactly is wrong with the IFCC deceiving V, anyway?

They already admitted to letting V assume things that were not exactly correct twice (the bit about the souls affecting V's alignment and why they picked him in the first place). What's the big deal about deceiving for a third?

No, seriously. What's the big deal?

I know that when I read the line: "Contracts are for people with something to hide", I would reply:

"Contracts are for people to make sure they aren't getting screwed by things left unsaid". :smallbiggrin:'

As the original proponent on this board of the V Is Gonna Get Timeshared at Some Point theory, I will simply say this. I find it awfully curious that each and every time V raised the topic of "You get to keep my soul after I die" the IFCC either changed the subject or commented on something else.

And yet plenty of other times they directly commented on V's statements.

Curious.

====

By the way, this would very definitely count as a lie. It's the standard Lie by Omission (I know I know I know - just consider the counter arguments that Lying by Omission isn't Lying per se as said, OK? :smalltongue:), that Tarquin is so good at. In this case isn't there a possibility that they are letting V delude himself into thinking what the terms are of the contract by not correcting him when he makes assumptions?

Of course there is that chance. They're. Evil. Of course they want to take advantage of V's hubris/shortsightedness/presumptions. That's what they do. Fairness not only doesn't even come into it, fairness is kinda against their M.O. :smallwink:

If V had directly challenged them and said, "Hey. Waitaminute. You never said once that I had to be dead before you can take over my soul. What's up with that" and the fiends directly lied, then V would have a case.

But he never ever ever did that. He just assumed.

Now maybe he is correct in his assumption. But I tend to think not. And just about everything the IFCC has said since V left them has only reinforced my position.

It is certainly true that I don't know for sure just what they are gonna do with V in their time (though I do have my suspicions). But, then again, I'm not Rich. I fully trust that he has an idea or two of what the IFCC is gonna do. :smallwink:

The Succubus

2012-05-16, 04:14 AM

My theory is that the Oracle doesn't have any divination abilities whatsoever and merely has a copy of all the Order of the Stick books.

Schadrach

2012-05-16, 06:39 AM

@Forikroder: In what way is a lie of omission fine print? It's rather the absence of any print leaving an opening, by not clearly stating something is the case that one party assumed that the other did not. This is standard fiend MO, the deal in which you buy into without properly considering the cost, even when the cost is laid before you, because you don't consider the fullness of what those words could mean.

The IFCC is going to take their time with V at the strategically optimal point -- and that isn't after she is dead (her own choices during the splice almost guarantee they get her then in a more permanent sense anyways). Instead, it's when having a perfectly consenting, perfectly controlled servant gives them exactly what they need. Also, if they can perform a splice again, the *very* first thing they will do with her is "I consent to a soul splice" to get her in the right power league if necessary.

Also, they know the Draketooth clan is dead, they knew it would be wiped out, in an Orcale-and-Belkar sense they *caused* it to be wiped out. They understand V's way of thinking enough that giving her a splice with Familicide all but assured it would be used on mama black dragon, and it's reasonable to assume that splicing that particular soul was intentional to cause that end.

As for the gates, they wanted Xykon to get off his ass and start looking, for reasons that are not necessarily clear. They *don't* want him to gain control of one and perform the ritual with Redcloak, because they don't serve the Dark One.

More to the original point of the thread, I suspect the "and the elf" was not going to be another more dramatic stretch on what counts as death, but knowing that Belkar was going to stab him right then, a very straightforward answer that he would never hear. I suspect that the "Belkar not being quite so evil" character development arc will climax with Belkar's predicted death, "and the elf." But that's dragging into wild-ass guess territory.

rgrekejin

2012-05-16, 08:57 AM

What exactly is wrong with the IFCC deceiving V, anyway?

Nothing, as far as I'm concerned. If they had told V straight-up that they wouldn't be taking her soul until after she died, and then the went ahead and did it anyway, I would be (justifiably, I think) miffed. However, I have no problems with the IFCC being deceptive (I think they're doing just that).

Forikroder's argument (and if I get this wrong, I apologize) seems to be that anything deceptive the IFCC does is tantamount to them lying due to their claim that they have nothing to hide, and would be similar to the situation described in the above paragraph. This would cheapen the IFCC in some way, and lessen their impact as villains.

Forikroder

2012-05-16, 09:41 AM

It's right there in yellow and black. Nale doesn't know he's their pawn, but the IFCC considers him and the rest of the Guild their pawns.
maybe i didnt tate my meaning well enough

what i mean is while they are "pawns" there not being controlled at all and they dont actually care what they do

Nale knows about the Gates.

right, including where they are thanks for agreeing

Only Roy knows that.

still waiting for your proof...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html

Roy didnt go to Shojo for Elan to relearn the lore he went to Shojo to learn more about the gates, therefore before going back to Shojo he only knew the basic stuff he told everyone therefore during that talk with Shojo he learned the locations

"Because Nale has psychological issues and a massive superiority complex" wasn't a good enough explanation for you? Alright, but it works for me.

no its not a good explanation unless your trying to say that instead of trying to capture a gate and rule the world he was going to try overthrowing the Empire of Blood first which is completely dumb

or if your jsut admitting hes too dumb to try to use logic to dictate what hell do

You completely missed the point of that comic. The splices had no control over V's alignment. None. That is explicitly said. That's why what V did was so shocking and horrific. I'm not even going to get in to this argument with you. They flat-out admit they lied to V about the splices affecting her alignment. Period.

power corrupts, they were power

BAM

besides that wasnt really part of the actual contract, the contract was done and sealed that was jsut them giving the elf helpful advice

And the Order seems to know that Redcloak and Xykon have some magical way of controlling the Gate.

no they assume that, if i was in roys shoes i would assume they didnt yet since all the time Xykon was squatting in the dungeon of Dorukon

And you're arguing that they know nothing about the ritual. This supports my point, not yours.

im not making a point here, i have no idea what there plan is im only throwing out the 3 possible scenarios

No. Those two were dominated in the course of combat. V has been planted ahead of time with some specific trigger to set her off. That's what make her a sleeper and the other ones not - V was planted ahead of time to be activated later.

no V was not planted the IFCC had nothing to do with what party was V was in, V could leave the order right now and the IFCC may not even care

Of course there is that chance. They're. Evil. Of course they want to take advantage of V's hubris/shortsightedness/presumptions. That's what they do. Fairness not only doesn't even come into it, fairness is kinda against their M.O.

well technically if what they said was right and they needed to impress there higher ups in order to obtain more funding to continue with there plan then not lying would be infinitely more impressive then just lying like every other devil and would impress there higher ups even more

In what way is a lie of omission fine print?

by saying they have no fine print and nothing to hide, if they make V think some detail is true when it false (like getting his soul while hes alive) then what would constitute as fine print becuase for the "contract" that V thought he was agreeing to (i get access to three soul splices for as long as my mental fortitude or needs allow me to hold onto them then after i die you get my soul for a time not to exceed the time held onto the splices) then if they wanted his soul while he was alive that would be added in fine print

and that isn't after she is dead

im amazed that despite noone having any idea what they need V for at all or noone having any idea what there even after they claim to know what capacity that Vs soul is useful to them

Also, they know the Draketooth clan is dead, they knew it would be wiped out

they conceivably knew, there not omniscient and there not deitys its actually pretty unlikely they were able to trace back the Draketooths lineage so accurately

As for the gates, they wanted Xykon to get off his ass and start looking, for reasons that are not necessarily clear. They *don't* want him to gain control of one and perform the ritual with Redcloak, because they don't serve the Dark One.

they said why, they want him to be fighting to cause conflict

and actually im not 100% sure it is game over for them if the Dark One gets the gate because then he moves that gate outside the mortal realms where it would be possible for them to go to the gate, the dark ones plan all lies on the Snarl still existing if it is no longer active then when they move the gate to a plane it wont actually do anything beause he cant have the threat of the snarl to make threats, its possible when he moves the gate they plan to be there and go through it

considering what blackwing saw i find it likely that the Snarl maybe undid himself after being trapped (or un-snarl-ed himself or something) and the planet inside the rift has something extremely valuable to the right people

Gift Jeraff

2012-05-16, 10:08 AM

If they don't care about V, why did Qarr bother with saving him/her from Z?

Forikroder

2012-05-16, 10:13 AM

If they don't care about V, why did Qarr bother with saving him/her from Z?

1) V is on the precipice of falling into evil so by removing blackwing they get a soul
2) they want the order to remain at full power for as long as possible to cause conflict with team evil
3) they already had Sabine there so getting Quarr in didnt take any effort and having him give Z the wrong coordinates didnt take any effort and having him kill Blackshing (shouldnt have) taken any effort

fergo

2012-05-16, 10:25 AM

no V was not planted the IFCC had nothing to do with what party was V was in, V could leave the order right now and the IFCC may not even care

I'm sorry, I may well have missed something along the way, but do you have any evidence to back this theory up?

The fact that Quarr is looking after V. is pretty strongly supporting the idea the IFCC know a lot about what's happening and presumably they have a plan that takes that into account.

But I may be wrong :smallsmile:.

Also, for what it's worth, while reading I assumed that they meant they could take V's soul while s/he's alive. It never occurred to me that there was an alternate assumption.

Forikroder

2012-05-16, 10:41 AM

I'm sorry, I may well have missed something along the way, but do you have any evidence to back this theory up?

The fact that Quarr is looking after V. is pretty strongly supporting the idea the IFCC know a lot about what's happening and presumably they have a plan that takes that into account.

But I may be wrong :smallsmile:.

Also, for what it's worth, while reading I assumed that they meant they could take V's soul while s/he's alive. It never occurred to me that there was an alternate assumption.

wait

so your saying the IFCC was the one who put V in the Order of the Stick in the first place?

rgrekejin

2012-05-16, 10:43 AM

what i mean is while they are "pawns" there not being controlled at all and they dont actually care what they do

...yeah, that's just an unfounded assertion. That entire scene seems to imply that the Directors are manipulating the Linear Guild to their own ends, but if you want to read it to imply that the Directors don't have any interest in the Guild's actions at all, I suppose I can't stop you. I'd be puzzled as to why you would do that, but I can't stop you.

right, including where they are thanks for agreeing

still waiting for your proof...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html

You know that's exactly what I'm talking about, right? Nale learned about the Gates there. In that comic. Right there. But nowhere is it implied that he learned the exact coordinates. All we know for sure is that, at some point, Shojo gave the coordinates to Roy. Nothing says it had to have been right there, in that conversation. And since everything Nale has done since then is exactly what he would have done if he knew about the Gates, but not their exact location, I think it is fair to assume that he doesn't know their exact location. You've proven that Nale knows the Gates exist. You haven't shown, or even shown any implication, that he knows their exact location, and since every single other piece of circumstantial evidence seems to imply that he does not know their exact location, the most logical conclusion is that he doesn't know their exact location, not that he does know their exact location and is for some reason behaving as if he didn't. And no, "Because Nale is an idiot" is not a valid reason. Nale may not be as smart as he thinks he is, and he does favor plans that are overly complex, but he's never been portrayed as the kind of drooling idiot you're making him out to be.

no its not a good explanation unless your trying to say that instead of trying to capture a gate and rule the world he was going to try overthrowing the Empire of Blood first which is completely dumb

or if your jsut admitting hes too dumb to try to use logic to dictate what hell do

I'm not saying he was going to try to overthrow the Empire of Blood. What Tarquin and I are saying is that Nale was sticking around for an emotional, and not necessarily a strategic, reason.

power corrupts, they were power

BAM

besides that wasnt really part of the actual contract, the contract was done and sealed that was jsut them giving the elf helpful advice

...yeah, I'm not even gonna touch this one. I think that's a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened in those comics, but explaining why treads too close to "morally justified" grounds. I'll just leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide which interpretation of events they think is correct.

no they assume that, if i was in roys shoes i would assume they didnt yet since all the time Xykon was squatting in the dungeon of Dorukon

Then why are the Order on a quest to stop Xykon from getting the next Gate? If the only thing they expect to happen is that Xykon is going to sit around and sunbathe in the shiny purple light, why even bother to stop him? They know that Xykon wants the gate for some terrible purpose.

im not making a point here, i have no idea what there plan is im only throwing out the 3 possible scenarios

And my point is that those three scenarios are not exhaustive.

no V was not planted the IFCC had nothing to do with what party was V was in, V could leave the order right now and the IFCC may not even care

:smallconfused: ...so, if I were to kidnap James Bond, and the hypnotize him so that every time he hears the phrase "marshmallow fluff" it activates a hidden mental pathway that causes him to attack his fellow MI6 members and send me all their sensitive data, he wouldn't count as a sleeper agent because I chose to take control of someone who was already in MI6 rather than plant someone new? I guess that if that's your definition, then no, he doesn't count as a sleeper agent. Just be aware that your definition is not the same as the one that everyone else uses.

well technically if what they said was right and they needed to impress there higher ups in order to obtain more funding to continue with there plan then not lying would be infinitely more impressive then just lying like every other devil and would impress there higher ups even more

by saying they have no fine print and nothing to hide, if they make V think some detail is true when it false (like getting his soul while hes alive) then what would constitute as fine print becuase for the "contract" that V thought he was agreeing to (i get access to three soul splices for as long as my mental fortitude or needs allow me to hold onto them then after i die you get my soul for a time not to exceed the time held onto the splices) then if they wanted his soul while he was alive that would be added in fine print

To quote Porthos, I ask again: What exactly is wrong with the IFCC deceiving V anyway? Why is it more impressive to their higher-ups that they don't need to lie? If your analysis is correct, the only thing that the IFCC proved here is that I don't need to lie about it if I offer to trade you a dollar for a quarter, which is not exactly a valuable concept to confirm. There is clearly something more going on.

im amazed that despite noone having any idea what they need V for at all or noone having any idea what there even after they claim to know what capacity that Vs soul is useful to them

Lots of people have lots of ideas for what they would use V's soul for. You just don't like their ideas, so you discount them.

Katuko

2012-05-16, 10:46 AM

right, including where they are thanks for agreeing
The point is that while both Nale and the Order knows the Gate's general location by process of elimination, they have not yet found the gate, and neither has the IFCC. Until the actual gate itself is revealed, there is no point for the IFCC to step in in any way. Presumably they plan on jumping in while the "good guys" and the "bad guys" fight each other, given their statement that they want conflict amongst them (like what has "held [the evil armies] back" for so long.

Roy didnt go to Shojo for Elan to relearn the lore he went to Shojo to learn more about the gates, therefore before going back to Shojo he only knew the basic stuff he told everyone therefore during that talk with Shojo he learned the locations
... And the very first frame in the very next strip have the characters comment that it was a "retelling", and Roy did not seem to have learned anything new at all.

no its not a good explanation unless your trying to say that instead of trying to capture a gate and rule the world he was going to try overthrowing the Empire of Blood first which is completely dumb

or if your jsut admitting hes too dumb to try to use logic to dictate what hell do
He wanted more info on his enemies before proceeding, or it's the superiority complex. Either way, I don't see what is to be misunderstood there.

power corrupts, they were power

BAM

besides that wasnt really part of the actual contract, the contract was done and sealed that was jsut them giving the elf helpful advice
Doesn't need to be part of the contract to be a direct lie, so I'm not even seeing your argument here.

Coincidentally: as usual.

im not making a point here, i have no idea what there plan is im only throwing out the 3 possible scenarios
For all we know there are 4, 5, 10 or even 20 possible scenarios.

no V was not planted the IFCC had nothing to do with what party was V was in, V could leave the order right now and the IFCC may not even care
Still a sleeper agent, regardless of group or affiliation. Society in general can be the "group" and V is still a sleeper agent simply for being a trick set up in advance.

well technically if what they said was right and they needed to impress there higher ups in order to obtain more funding to continue with there plan then not lying would be infinitely more impressive then just lying like every other devil and would impress there higher ups even more
The "higher-ups" are evil themselves and likely doesn't care about methods as long as the result is good enough.

im amazed that despite noone having any idea what they need V for at all or noone having any idea what there even after they claim to know what capacity that Vs soul is useful to them
Well, let's take a look at the possibilities, like you like to do so much.

1) The contract is a standard Faustian Deal, with "after death" as the clause. V dies, and the IFCC gets his soul for their precious minutes. With only the soul and no living body, V can thus only be used for either torturing (pointless), a soul splice (after 100 years of waiting, but V's not high enough level to be worth it, really) or somehow resurrected (which, if the IFCC only gets the soul after death, will void their contract).

2) The contract can be cashed in while V is still alive, which means the IFCC can essentially control his/her body for a precious little while. This can be used to majorly screw things up, simply by having V wander off and work magic while everyone else has no clue what's going on. The possibilities with a possessed mage are endless, really, no matter the level. Heck, mind control on a commoner is enough to make them slay their kin and thus pin the blame on them; what can't you do with an important PC in the middle of a major quest?

they said why, they want him to be fighting to cause conflict

and actually im not 100% sure it is game over for them if the Dark One gets the gate because then he moves that gate outside the mortal realms where it would be possible for them to go to the gate, the dark ones plan all lies on the Snarl still existing if it is no longer active then when they move the gate to a plane it wont actually do anything beause he cant have the threat of the snarl to make threats, its possible when he moves the gate they plan to be there and go through it

considering what blackwing saw i find it likely that the Snarl maybe undid himself after being trapped (or un-snarl-ed himself or something) and the planet inside the rift has something extremely valuable to the right people
Congrats, finally a theory I at least can somewhat agree with. However, the one thing that makes it unlikely is that when Blackwing stares into the rift, the IFCC say they don't know what would happen to things that go through it. In that case, I would find it strange if they hinged their plan on doing just that, since I doubt even the Gods know the exact effect of the Snarl or the Rifts.

Forikroder

2012-05-16, 11:05 AM

...yeah, that's just an unfounded assertion. That entire scene seems to imply that the Directors are manipulating the Linear Guild to their own ends, but if you want to read it to imply that the Directors don't have any interest in the Guild's actions at all, I suppose I can't stop you. I'd be puzzled as to why you would do that, but I can't stop you.

i dunno maybe because Quarr said to sabine that the ambush was a dumb idea and she should ahve had nale not do it and she saids she doesnt try to influence ony of his actions and just takes orders?

Nothing says it had to have been right there, in that conversation.

ya im sure there was another conversation he had with Shojo where he asked for the coordinates but didnt ask for info on the gates so he had to head back and have a third conversation about the gates /sarcasm

And since everything Nale has done since then is exactly what he would have done if he knew about the Gates, but not their exact location, I think it is fair to assume that he doesn't know their exact location.

no hes jsut too dumb to realise it would be smarter to go afer kraagars problably wants to satisfaction of stealing the gate from under daddys nose

I'm not saying he was going to try to overthrow the Empire of Blood. What Tarquin and I are saying is that Nale was sticking around for an emotional, and not necessarily a strategic, reason.

that somewhat kinda but not really explains why he stayed after his team got destroyed, doesnt explain why he didnt leave the day after Penelope died

Then why are the Order on a quest to stop Xykon from getting the next Gate?

hes evil, its a macguffin, does it need more explaining? do you think there gonna say "well Xykon is extremely evil and powerful, and the gate will give him enough power to rule the world but im sure hell never figure out how to use it"

besides, theres a little thing called the blood oath that Roy needs to finish

...so, if I were to kidnap James Bond, and the hypnotize him so that every time he hears the phrase "marshmallow fluff" it activates a hidden mental pathway that causes him to attack his fellow MI6 members and send me all their sensitive data, he wouldn't count as a sleeper agent because I chose to take control of someone who was already in MI6 rather than plant someone new?

tahts nothing like what happened to Vaarsuvious what you described would be an actual sleeper agent, since V has nothing like that done to him hes not a sleeper agent hes just a (potential) liability

Why is it more impressive to their higher-ups that they don't need to lie?

because every demon, devil and daemon lies, its nothing special and doesnt show there amazing

but if they manage to completely tempt V like they did by only telling the truth and showing him the way out and he STILL takes the bait (like what happened) then it shows the higher ups how awesome they are just like how Quarr was left speechless after watching them work

... And the very first frame in the very next strip have the characters comment that it was a "retelling", and Roy did not seem to have learned anything new at all.

which would be completely at odds with what he said the very panel before that so lets assume that instead of thinking roy got amnesia between panels, forgot why he was there and decided to jsut here the story again for shts and giggles he actually went to Shojo for what he said he went to Shojo for

He wanted more info on his enemies before proceeding, or it's the superiority complex. Either way, I don't see what is to be misunderstood there.

theres no reason for him to have left right after Penelope died since it was still a week afterwards that the order even apeared

For all we know there are 4, 5, 10 or even 20 possible scenarios.

no there isnt, they either know of redclaoks ritual, dont know of his ritual and are making there own or dont need a ritual

The "higher-ups" are evil themselves and likely doesn't care about methods as long as the result is good enough.

the IFCC wasnt trying to be "good enough" "good enough" doesnt make there union worth it if there jsut "good enough" then the 3 races wont work together they need to completely awe inspiring to show everyone how amazing they can be by working together

1) The contract is a standard Faustian Deal, with "after death" as the clause. V dies, and the IFCC gets his soul for their precious minutes. With only the soul and no living body, V can thus only be used for either torturing (pointless), a soul splice (after 100 years of waiting, but V's not high enough level to be worth it, really) or somehow resurrected (which, if the IFCC only gets the soul after death, will void their contract).

or they have a plan for V that only Vs soul can perform or only his soul can be used as some sort of reagent or something

2) The contract can be cashed in while V is still alive, which means the IFCC can essentially control his/her body for a precious little while. This can be used to majorly screw things up, simply by having V wander off and work magic while everyone else has no clue what's going on. The possibilities with a possessed mage are endless, really, no matter the level. Heck, mind control on a commoner is enough to make them slay their kin and thus pin the blame on them; what can't you do with an important PC in the middle of a major quest?

how does that help them? at most they can do serious damage to the order, that doesnt cause conflict that removes conflict because then team evil gets a cleen sweep

Congrats, finally a theory I at least can somewhat agree with. However, the one thing that makes it unlikely is that when Blackwing stares into the rift, the IFCC say they don't know what would happen to things that go through it. In that case, I would find it strange if they hinged their plan on doing just that, since I doubt even the Gods know the exact effect of the Snarl or the Rifts.

no they didnt know what would happen if the Phylactery goes through an open gate and falls into a new space, they dont know if it would still keep its connection to Xykon or if it would be the same as it getting destroyed

doesnt mean they have no idea at all about the world inside

Katuko

2012-05-16, 11:31 AM

that somewhat kinda but not really explains why he stayed after his team got destroyed, doesnt explain why he didnt leave the day after Penelope died

theres no reason for him to have left right after Penelope died since it was still a week afterwards that the order even apeared
First you say there's no explanation why Nale didn't leave the day after Penelope died, then you say there's no reason why he stayed. Make up your mind.

because every demon, devil and daemon lies, its nothing special and doesnt show there amazing
There's a difference between just lying and lying masterfully, you know. And when I said "good enough", I at least thought you would be able to discern that "good enough" is a variable expression. Thus, if their goal is to rally all three species of demons and their scheme doesn't do that, then it's simply not "good enough". So I don't get how that argument is supposed to work.

which would be completely at odds with what he said the very panel before that so lets assume that instead of thinking roy got amnesia between panels, forgot why he was there and decided to jsut here the story again for shts and giggles he actually went to Shojo for what he said he went to Shojo for
It was "Elan" that got amnesia, not Roy. Hence Shojo says "...again", Nale says "thanks!" and Roy comments on how [Elan] should try to remember next time because he doesn't get to skip the retelling.

no there isnt, they either know of redclaoks ritual, dont know of his ritual and are making there own or dont need a ritual
And like you demonstrate just below, there are plenty of different things that could happen within those 3 main scenarios. Naming them all does not make your argument any more valid, it just makes it more disjointed and spread out, leading to no real argument at all and just theories; theories the likes of which you deride when you say the IFCC claiming V's still-living body is a baseless one.

or they have a plan for V that only Vs soul can perform or only his soul can be used as some sort of reagent or something
See above. You are making silly theories yourself, and I don't see how they are any more valid than ones that at least can be somewhat affixed to what has been said in-comic.

how does that help them? at most they can do serious damage to the order, that doesnt cause conflict that removes conflict because then team evil gets a cleen sweep
One of many options is V dealing serious damage to the Order right after they beat Team Evil. That could be very effective, since they are then likely close to a confirmed Gate and also think they have won. An attack out of left field could catch people by surprise and be very effective at actually claiming the Gate itself.

no they didnt know what would happen if the Phylactery goes through an open gate and falls into a new space, they dont know if it would still keep its connection to Xykon or if it would be the same as it getting destroyed

doesnt mean they have no idea at all about the world inside
Seeing as the IFCC learned about the Gates from Sabine, and haven't really had the opportunity to look at any proper rift until Azure City expanded its own, I find it unlikely that they know exactly what's beyond it. At the present moment it seems anyone can look inside the rift and see what Blackwing saw, but the IFCC needs a scrying target to look at all. The way it's presented when Xykon flies up there, it seems only Blackwing was focused enough on the rift to look inside it, while everyone else only cared for the phylactery.

Kalrany

2012-05-16, 11:39 AM

.....
So...
That Oracle. Anyone else wondering if we will even see him again?

mrmcfatty

2012-05-16, 11:55 AM

since i got tired of reading halfway through the second page ill just place this here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html

good thing that "Lord Shojo and Sir Greenhilt" means nale as well. so...he knows about the gates, and general location and not exactly where.

*V dies IFCC gets his soul* yay! now they can do....oh yea....nothing. Great plan. so alive it is or, once again, nothing.

TECHNICALLY he is a sleeper agent, but i understand not saying he is one.

Nale is a unknowning pawn.

They wanted Xykon off his lazy butt in contention for the gate.

everything else is pure conjecture. Although it is stated they have other plans and goals, but who knows what they are or if we will even know.

so thats like, what, a million points to rgrekejin...if it wasnt such an easy give and i had the authority id give you an internet for defending so fervently.

Porthos

2012-05-16, 12:13 PM

Errr..... Devils get rewarded for lying masterfully. It's all about manipulation, unsaid promises, half-truths, and setting people up to damn themselves.

It's kinda their thing, ya know. :smallsmile:

I really don't see why whoever the IFCC is trying to sell their plan to (if they even are and aren't on their own power play) would care about honesty. In fact, I strongly suspect they would only care about one thing: Results.

Well results and getting a good hearty evil laugh at manipulating an elf too full of himself for his own good. That never gets old (from their viewpoint at least). :smallwink:

PS: BTW, if they are willing to decieve and pull the 'technical truth' card to Tiamat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) (who is in a position to put them in a world of hurt), then doing so to Random J Mortal wouldn't cause them any qualms at all. :smallwink:

Whiffet

2012-05-16, 01:18 PM

My theory is that the Oracle doesn't have any divination abilities whatsoever and merely has a copy of all the Order of the Stick books.

Ooo! So we're going to see his death-by-angry-druid after all? Maybe a bonus strip at some point? I'd like that.

Roland Itiative

2012-05-16, 02:39 PM

Ooo! So we're going to see his death-by-angry-druid after all? Maybe a bonus strip at some point? I'd like that.

Not necessarily. He might have just read that he was supposed to say that :smalltongue:

Forikroder

2012-05-16, 09:20 PM

It was "Elan" that got amnesia, not Roy. Hence Shojo says "...again", Nale says "thanks!" and Roy comments on how [Elan] should try to remember next time because he doesn't get to skip the retelling.

but it was Roy who went to Shojo in the first place, they didnt go there for "elan" to get a refresher, "elan" jsut tagged along since Roy was going there in the first place

And like you demonstrate just below, there are plenty of different things that could happen within those 3 main scenarios. Naming them all does not make your argument any more valid, it just makes it more disjointed and spread out, leading to no real argument at all and just theories; theories the likes of which you deride when you say the IFCC claiming V's still-living body is a baseless one.

how many times do i have to say it? i am not making an argument with those scenarios im only listing the three possible scenarios

See above. You are making silly theories yourself, and I don't see how they are any more valid than ones that at least can be somewhat affixed to what has been said in-comic.

because they cant

One of many options is V dealing serious damage to the Order right after they beat Team Evil. That could be very effective, since they are then likely close to a confirmed Gate and also think they have won. An attack out of left field could catch people by surprise and be very effective at actually claiming the Gate itself.

if they wanted a gate theyd have one already

*V dies IFCC gets his soul* yay! now they can do....oh yea....nothing. Great plan. so alive it is or, once again, nothing.

or they need it for some plan we dont know about

in the grand scheme Vs soul is worth nothing, a high level wizard can do alot of damage, but he cant give them a gate he cant move mountains, hes not an epic level spellcaster

theres no evidence that Vs soul is EVER worth anything to them, its certainly not going to get them enough power to overthrow the gods of good by themself so its either part of some plan we dont know about and cant even begin to understand or they really dont care about the soul

Errr..... Devils get rewarded for lying masterfully. It's all about manipulation, unsaid promises, half-truths, and setting people up to damn themselves.

It's kinda their thing, ya know

right, so doing a much better job then any devil ever did, without even having to lie is exactly what the IFCC needed to do to wow there superiors

I really don't see why whoever the IFCC is trying to sell their plan to (if they even are and aren't on their own power play) would care about honesty. In fact, I strongly suspect they would only care about one thing: Results.

right, all they want is spectacular results, which the IFCC produced by doing such an amazing job tempting V without lieing

rgrekejin

2012-05-16, 10:09 PM

but it was Roy who went to Shojo in the first place, they didnt go there for "elan" to get a refresher, "elan" jsut tagged along since Roy was going there in the first place

Roy asks "Can you tell us more about the Gates?". On the next page, it is clear that Roy is irritated with Elan/Nale, as they have caused Shojo to repeat the lore they already know over again. Roy looks displeased, so it may be that he did not get the information he wanted. And either way, it doesn't matter, because "Can you tell us more about the Gates?" is still a far cry from "Can you tell us the exact location of the Gates?" Plus, as V notes here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0505.html) only Roy and Shojo know the coordinates. If that was the conversation where Shojo gave them the coordinates, then Nale would also know the coordinates (as would Belkar who was also in the room at the time). Since V mentions neither of those people, it's a pretty safe bet that that wasn't the conversation where Shojo gave Roy the coordinates. You could object that the Order thought Nale was dead at the time, but since V mentions Shojo, who they know definitively to be dead, that's not a good objection.

Seriously, I don't know why it's such a huge stretch to believe that Roy may have had more conversations with the city ruler who was actively employing his adventuring group then the ones we see explicitly on screen.

And then there's the fact that Nale, ever since leaving Azure City, has behaved exactly the way we would expect him to if he knew about the Gates in general, but not their exact locations. Now, I know the comic makes fun of Nale's overestimation of his own intelligence, but he has never been portrayed as being so completely and utterly stupid as he would have to be to have the coordinates to Kraagor's gate, and choose to ignore them for no reason whatsoever. Heck, Elan has never been portrayed as that dumb.

how many times do i have to say it? i am not making an argument with those scenarios im only listing the three possible scenarios

Here are the three scenarios you originally listed:

if they know about team evil to know the ritual exists then they know enough to know its not an option they can go after since theyd know the ritual came straight from the dark one

and if they got the ritual then just like Tsukiko (only a hell of alot faster) theyd realise the ritual was a trap

so either they know Redcloaks ritual exists and know they cant use it, they dont know his ritual exists and came up with there own spell or there not planning to take control fo the snarl

Now, you have since been arguing that those are the only three possible scenarios. That is not true. I can disprove it by illustrating a scenario which is possible, but not covered by one of those three. Here is one:

They know about Redcloak's ritual. They do not know how it works, but they think it allows them to control the Snarl, just as Xykon believes. They are biding their time and hoping to work with Redcloak to bring the Gate under their control.

Now, I'm not saying that is what is going to happen. In fact, I think that that is definitely not what is going to happen. But it is a possible scenario, and it is not covered by any of your three.

right, so doing a much better job then any devil ever did, without even having to lie is exactly what the IFCC needed to do to wow there superiors

right, all they want is spectacular results, which the IFCC produced by doing such an amazing job tempting V without lieing

So, if there's no catch, no clause which went unmentioned, and everything is on the up and up... then the IFCC did an absolutely terrible job here. They traded three super-powerful soul splices for... what, forty minutes of temporary custody of an elf's soul that will not benefit them in any way we have any evidence for? If that's true, then the IFCC got suckered by one sleep-deprived elf. They traded V something incredibly valuable for something which is effectively worthless. I mean, I can convince anyone to trade me a quarter in exchange for my dollar without lying, because I'm offering them something more valuable than what they'd be giving to me. That's not a point that anyone needs to prove. The whole point of devils making cunning deals is that they're supposed to come out ahead. And if the IFCC's bargain here is on the up and up, then they came out behind. Way behind. This is an epic-level screw-up in a very literal sense. Maybe they would have been better served letting Qarr keep at it afterall.

I suppose it's always possible that they need V's after-death soul for something which hasn't been revealed yet, in which case they could potentially redeem themselves, but why invent extra plot points that there is no evidence for when the current evidence suggests a much neater solution: that they need V's soul while she is still alive, for some purpose related to the Gates.

Forikroder

2012-05-16, 11:10 PM

Roy asks "Can you tell us more about the Gates?". On the next page, it is clear that Roy is irritated with Elan/Nale, as they have caused Shojo to repeat the lore they already know over again. Roy looks displeased, so it may be that he did not get the information he wanted. And either way, it doesn't matter, because "Can you tell us more about the Gates?" is still a far cry from "Can you tell us the exact location of the Gates?"

hes displeased because once again Elans stupidity has inconvenienced him, the only thing Shojo knows about the gates, is why they were made and where they are he doesnt KNOW how there defended, so if roy is trying to get more info then obviously its about where they are since he jsut learned where to go first

Plus, as V notes here only Roy and Shojo know the coordinates. If that was the conversation where Shojo gave them the coordinates, then Nale would also know the coordinates (as would Belkar who was also in the room at the time). Since V mentions neither of those people, it's a pretty safe bet that that wasn't the conversation where Shojo gave Roy the coordinates. You could object that the Order thought Nale was dead at the time, but since V mentions Shojo, who they know definitively to be dead, that's not a good objection.

heres a good objection, V is not anywhere close to being a reliable source since V was not there at the time also i can list more people who know, Serini knows, Xykon knows, Girard knows (knew) so obviously V was not trying to give a comprehensive list of who knows where the gate is

Seriously, I don't know why it's such a huge stretch to believe that Roy may have had more conversations with the city ruler who was actively employing his adventuring group then the ones we see explicitly on screen.

its not a huge stretch, but Roy hates Shojo almost as much as he hates his father and since Shojo has such little information (which is why he needed Roy and his group in the first place) what else could roy possibly have been trying to learn from him?

They know about Redcloak's ritual. They do not know how it works, but they think it allows them to control the Snarl, just as Xykon believes. They are biding their time and hoping to work with Redcloak to bring the Gate under their control.

which would never work since Redcloak would refuse to work with them since they bring nothing to the table Redcloak wants to help goblins and conspiring with fiends is the wrong way to get that done

So, if there's no catch, no clause which went unmentioned, and everything is on the up and up... then the IFCC did an absolutely terrible job here. They traded three super-powerful soul splices for... what, forty minutes of temporary custody of an elf's soul that will not benefit them in any way we have any evidence for? If that's true, then the IFCC got suckered by one sleep-deprived elf. They traded V something incredibly valuable for something which is effectively worthless. I mean, I can convince anyone to trade me a quarter in exchange for my dollar without lying, because I'm offering them something more valuable than what they'd be giving to me. That's not a point that anyone needs to prove. The whole point of devils making cunning deals is that they're supposed to come out ahead. And if the IFCC's bargain here is on the up and up, then they came out behind. Way behind. This is an epic-level screw-up in a very literal sense. Maybe they would have been better served letting Qarr keep at it afterall.

the point wasnt showing what they can get the point was to show what they can get V to accept, if they show this to there superiors and say "if any one of us was alone he would have jsut taken the way out" and could prove it to them then it validates the existance of the IFCC

I suppose it's always possible that they need V's after-death soul for something which hasn't been revealed yet, in which case they could potentially redeem themselves, but why invent extra plot points that there is no evidence for when the current evidence suggests a much neater solution: that they need V's soul while she is still alive, for some purpose related to the Gates.

no evidence?
theres no evidence for anything about the IFCC

we have no idea who they are, what there goals are, what they want done, what they dont want done, how they plan to do what they plan to, what they get at the end, what they ordered Sabine to do, what orders they gave Quarr, what agents they have aside from Quarr and the LG, how much power they hold in the lower planes

we know literally nothing about them aside from the tiny itty bitty glimpse when there interacting with V theres no evidence at all about anything about them its all speculation

rgrekejin

2012-05-17, 12:17 AM

hes displeased because once again Elans stupidity has inconvenienced him, the only thing Shojo knows about the gates, is why they were made and where they are he doesnt KNOW how there defended, so if roy is trying to get more info then obviously its about where they are since he jsut learned where to go first

heres a good objection, V is not anywhere close to being a reliable source since V was not there at the time also i can list more people who know, Serini knows, Xykon knows, Girard knows (knew) so obviously V was not trying to give a comprehensive list of who knows where the gate is

its not a huge stretch, but Roy hates Shojo almost as much as he hates his father and since Shojo has such little information (which is why he needed Roy and his group in the first place) what else could roy possibly have been trying to learn from him?

Those are not good objections. Belkar was there, and if he knew the coordinates, V would probably have included him on her list, given that she saw fit to include, you know, a dead guy. The reason the Scribblers were left off was that this is a list of people that the Order knows who know the location. Although they may not think to include Nale on such a list, surely they would include Belkar. So it is very likely that Roy got the coordinates some other time. Also, we have direct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0294.html) evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html) that there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0318.html) have been several (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) off-panel conversations with Shojo, many of which Roy was a part of.

Lastly, you seem to have been avoiding my point about why Nale is acting exactly like we would expect him to act if he knew about the Gates in general, but did not know their specific location. If you're trying to argue that Nale just didn't go straight to the Gates because he is teh dumzorz-ist person evar (an assertion that, as I have repeatedly pointed out, is not supported by the comic), then why is he behaving in this exact manner? Why not have him behave in a manner that is completely, glaringly stupid, rather than in a way that is entirely consistent with the way an adventurer who knows about the Gates in general and has one useful piece of info (a name linking the Gate to someone who can aid in scrying), but not their specific location, would act? That's a heck of a big coincidence, if you're right. Please explain this, instead of just glossing over it.

which would never work since Redcloak would refuse to work with them since they bring nothing to the table Redcloak wants to help goblins and conspiring with fiends is the wrong way to get that done

Baloney. You have no idea what the IFCC could or could not offer to Redcloak, and neither does anyone else. This scenario is just as valid as any of the ones you present. Note, again, that I do not think this scenario is going to happen, just that it is a possibility.

the point wasnt showing what they can get the point was to show what they can get V to accept, if they show this to there superiors and say "if any one of us was alone he would have jsut taken the way out" and could prove it to them then it validates the existance of the IFCC

Because showing their superiors that they can get a mortal to agree to a bargain that is clearly a good bargain for the mortal and a bad bargain for the fiends proves... what, again? If I offer you a new car in exchange for your old shoe, I've proved I can make a deal, but not that I can make a good deal. If the IFCC is going to be an organization that successfully gives away new cars in exchange for old shoes, then they're really not a very good organization, are they? Even if they can make deals without lying, if they can only make bad deals, then they serve no purpose. What you're suggesting is that the IFCC made a bad bargain without lying for no other reason than to show that they could make a bargain without lying. I'm saying that unless they can make a good bargain, then it's irrelevant whether they had to lie or not.

no evidence?
theres no evidence for anything about the IFCC

we have no idea who they are, what there goals are, what they want done, what they dont want done, how they plan to do what they plan to, what they get at the end, what they ordered Sabine to do, what orders they gave Quarr, what agents they have aside from Quarr and the LG, how much power they hold in the lower planes

we know literally nothing about them aside from the tiny itty bitty glimpse when there interacting with V theres no evidence at all about anything about them its all speculation

That is not true. We know they have a long-term goal of bringing down the good Gods and the Upper Planes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html). We know they have a plan for the Gates (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). We have some pretty strong hints that at least one of their plans in some way involves a living V (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html), and that they have in fact had Qarr intercede to save her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0803.html) on one occasion. Those things, taken together, build towards my conclusion that they plan to take control of a living V to do something Gate-related. Although I could be wrong about some of the specifics, the fact that they want her alive kind of torpedoes any theory that involves her soul only being available to them upon her death.

Forikroder

2012-05-17, 12:51 AM

Belkar was there, and if he knew the coordinates, V would probably have included him on his list

Belkar is with Roy and V doesnt think of Belkar as anything more then a lump of hate with weapons, remember V isnt even convinced Belkar has a real brain

plus have you like not payed attention to Belakrs character at all? he probably doesnt even know what the gates are hes been shown pretty mcuh every chance that he doesnt care about anything but shanking any enemy in range of his 30ft movement speed he never pays any attention to what anyone saids unless he thinks he can get a pun out of it and doesnt actually care about anyone but himself and Mr. Scruffy, hell he was probably jsut playing with Mr. Scruffy the entire time Shojo was talking or jsut taking a nap or something

direct

that was the original conversation that ended off panel

have been several

there was also one off panel conversation where he conned Shojo into lending him a wizard, since Roys sister was being held hostage he probably didnt sit down to have tea with Shojo and discuss the finer details of the universe

so all youve been able to prove was there the oringinal conversation with Shojo ended off panel and that Roy got a wizard from Shojo so we know there was one single hurried conversation with Shojo in which we know nothing about

Lastly, you seem to have been avoiding my point about why Nale is acting exactly like we would expect him to act if he knew about the Gates in general

because hes also acting exactly as hed act if he was a complete idiot which he has also been proven beyond doubt to be

an assertion that, as I have repeatedly pointed out, is not supported by the comic

okay then link a single smart thing hes done, because anyone smart enough to hang around invisible 5 feet away from the guy who just almost killed him in a single round and the guy who put a huge bounty on his head just to stroke his ego is obviously somewhere in the negative int modifier

completely, glaringly stupid

like engaging in a hastily thought up spur of the moment ambush scenario against a stronger military force in the most dangerous place (for him) on the planet?

if Nale had a single point in intellegence he would ahve at least left the Palace after Penelope died there was no benefit to staying in the palace after his info source disapeared and so many negatives (mainly sharing a living space with someone wholiterally wants to eat your soul and possibly even has access to magic that would allow him to do so)

You have no idea what the IFCC could or could not offer to Redcloak

well they cant offer him an epic level sorcerer since hes already got one of those, and an epic level sorcerer is all he needs for the plan

plus as you have stated so many times devils arnt known for being trustworthy and Redcloaks the only competent person in the comic so he wouldnt trust the IFCC ever

Because showing their superiors that they can get a mortal to agree to a bargain that is clearly a good bargain for the mortal and a bad bargain for the fiends proves... what, again? If I offer you a new car in exchange for your old shoe, I've proved I can make a deal, but not that I can make a good deal. If the IFCC is going to be an organization that successfully gives away new cars in exchange for old shoes, then they're really not a very good organization, are they? Even if they can make deals without lying, if they can only make bad deals, then they serve no purpose. What you're suggesting is that the IFCC made a bad bargain without lying for no other reason than to show that they could make a bargain without lying. I'm saying that unless they can make a good bargain, then it's irrelevant whether they had to lie or not.

your jsut not getting it, it is nothing like offering a new car for an old shoe, they took a good natured person, offered him immense power to complete his goal and offered him a perfectly reasonable plan that he could ahve done a way to not sell his soul to fiends and still do what he wanted and he still took the power

its not about what they offered and what they got in return its what they did to V so easily

they essentially turned a good soul into a bad soul with the drop of a hat

That is not true. We know they have a long-term goal of bringing down the good Gods and the Upper Planes.

but have no idea why or how they plan to accomplish that

We know they have a plan for the Gates.

but no idea in what way they plan to use the gates or how they plan to use the gates nor any evidence or foreshadowing on any of the above

We have some pretty strong hints that at least one of their plans in some way involves a living V

i already talked about that, they needed V to actually do something more then getting owned by Xykon before he dies since they wanted him back in the game if he had died there then Xykon sits in Azure city for another year content with how awesome he is

and that they have in fact had Qarr intercede to save her on one occasion.

irrelevant all it took was pretty much no effort at all from the IFCC and they wanted the order to remain strong to fight Xykon so didnt want one of there strongest memebers to die pointlessly which would ahve reduced the conflict substantially

by having Quarr say one single line to Z they extend Vs stay on the mortal plane meaning he has enough time to completely dive into the deep end of the alignment pool meaning one more soul for them and alot more future conflict and they wanted Quarr there because they may be starting to question Sabines loyalty (or if they didnt they very well could be by now hard to say without knowing Sabines orders)

Bustamouse

2012-05-17, 01:16 AM

So I have decided it is time for me to enter the fray and lay down some cold hard law despite the fact it is 2 A.M. and I am tired... and none of you know me. What follows is my interpretation and if you don't like it then... whatever I still say it is right.

The IFCC is MOST DEF going to take over V while he is alive and here is how I think it would happen. I don't know how to link comics and I am a man on a mission and thus I have no time to look up how to do it but in the comic right after the IFCC deals with Tiamat's anger over the slaying of all those black dragons they make a sly reference to the whole thing being a grand scheme against good or their plan can be interpreted as such.

Saying that the IFCC's goal is simply to "cause conflict" is over simplifying and sort of insulting them. These are Main Villains I think they are gonna have a crazy complex plan that has not been revealed yet. Just look at Redcloak and his scheming.

But anyway back on track to V and the soul stuff and what not. There is going to be a pivotal point at a battle for one of the remaining two gates, I believe it is going to be our upcoming one. At this point the IFCC will take control of V and perform their plan. I think it will be something along the line of using control over the gate as leverage against the Gods. The recap of the Rangers and Devils game is throwing me off here so I can't remember exactly where I was going with it here, I think I had more I wanted to say. I just remember, the 3 soul splices might not have been the ultimate power and the ultimate power might be the IFCC using V to either control the snarl are the actual blackmailing I predict

Now something I just realized is that this would be a perfect opportunity to kill of Durkon and/or Belkar, I believe the current WMG has Belkar dying first. So V causes the death of his friend/foe Belkar and please tell me that is not poetic. V will be wracked with guilt with complete knowledge of what the bargain has caused. The only other way I see Belkar dying is if the snarl kills him similar to how it killed whats-his-dwarven-face for a parallel between the two parties.

The End..... I think

Nemeean_lion

2012-05-17, 05:04 AM

skaddix

2012-05-17, 06:33 AM

I think its clear IFCC wants to use V while s/he is alive. S/he has no useful purpose dead seeing as they have access to epic wizards and sorcerors. Also as V is an elf, they have to wait a ridiculous amount of time to cash in which is no problem to them but still need a really long term plan for that.

factotum

2012-05-17, 06:34 AM

Getting back to a more Oracle centered discussion, I am surprised to see that noone here mentioned the alternate theory for the Oracle's semi prophecy.

Namely " And as for the elf... She will actually kill you. "

The problem with that is: all the other stuff the Oracle was coming out with were predictions intended to make Belkar think his prediction had already come true. That "alternate theory" would not have fitted that pattern in the slightest, and certainly wouldn't have discouraged Belkar from using the Oracle as a magic dagger repository!

Nemeean_lion

2012-05-17, 07:30 AM

That is a valid point. Nevertheless since he had already enumerated every other person included in the prophecy, it was only natural for him to mention Vaarsuvius as well, so my point is just as valid.

Also, it's more interesting. Personally I'd rather see it as Vaarsuvius killing Belkar(probably while controled by the fiends but not necesarily) than Vaarsuvius being killed 100 years in the future because he saw a halfling that reminded him of belkar, which distracted him and made him trip down the stairs, thus breaking his neck.

rgrekejin

2012-05-17, 09:48 AM

Belkar is with Roy and V doesnt think of Belkar as anything more then a lump of hate with weapons, remember V isnt even convinced Belkar has a real brain

plus have you like not payed attention to Belakrs character at all? he probably doesnt even know what the gates are hes been shown pretty mcuh every chance that he doesnt care about anything but shanking any enemy in range of his 30ft movement speed he never pays any attention to what anyone saids unless he thinks he can get a pun out of it and doesnt actually care about anyone but himself and Mr. Scruffy, hell he was probably jsut playing with Mr. Scruffy the entire time Shojo was talking or jsut taking a nap or something

that was the original conversation that ended off panel

there was also one off panel conversation where he conned Shojo into lending him a wizard, since Roys sister was being held hostage he probably didnt sit down to have tea with Shojo and discuss the finer details of the universe

so all youve been able to prove was there the oringinal conversation with Shojo ended off panel and that Roy got a wizard from Shojo so we know there was one single hurried conversation with Shojo in which we know nothing about

Interestingly enough, V says in that comic that Shojo gave Roy the coordinates "when we first came in to his employment". As the Order had already gone on two missions by the time Nale showed up, I wouldn't think that would count as "first coming in to his employment".

Also, what I've shown is that a lot of the conversations with Shojo happened off-panel. Heck, maybe it was in the off-panel portion of the very first conversation that Shojo gave Roy the coordinates. The point is, the Order talked to Lord Shojo a bunch of times that we never saw, but only once with Nale there. Your entire argument hinges on that one conversation being the one in which Shojo gave Roy the coordinates, and the only reason that you think it might is because, in the panel leading up to it, Roy asked "Can you tell us more about the Gates?" You assume that that had to have been the coordinates, but it doesn't have to be. Roy could have been asking if Shojo had more information about how they are guarded, more information about the other members of the Order of the Scribble, more information about the challenges they might face on their way to the Gates, more information about how the enchantment which form the Gates works... anything. And since that time, Nale has shown no signs of knowing the actual coordinates of the Gates. Every single thing he has done is exactly what we would expect an adventurer to do if he knew the Gates existed, but did not know exactly where they are. So essentially, your argument is that that one specific conversation was the one where Shojo gave Roy the coordinates despite their being no evidence that's the case, and plenty of circumstantial evidence that it was not the case.

because hes also acting exactly as hed act if he was a complete idiot which he has also been proven beyond doubt to be

okay then link a single smart thing hes done, because anyone smart enough to hang around invisible 5 feet away from the guy who just almost killed him in a single round and the guy who put a huge bounty on his head just to stroke his ego is obviously somewhere in the negative int modifier

Link to one smart thing he's done? Well, since you asked...

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html) his plan to trick the Good Guys to let him in to the room with Talisman worked.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) he sets in motion a plan that allows him to successfully infiltrate the Order by replacing his brother.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) he explains his reasoning for selecting Cliffport as the site for the ambush (which is actually quite brilliant, not merely adequately competent like some of the other examples).

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) he shows sufficient forethought to know that he cannot take a spellcaster in a straight-up fight, so he has prepared himself by buying a wand of enervation to even the odds.

Is that sufficient? Because I can keep going. Admittedly, some of those things are more in line with a "competent" level of intelligence rather than the "genius" one Nale believes himself to have. But in order to show that he is not so thunderingly stupid as to ignore a second set of coordinates he has for absolutely no reason, all I really have to show is that he's smart enough to be able to tie his own shoes.

like engaging in a hastily thought up spur of the moment ambush scenario against a stronger military force in the most dangerous place (for him) on the planet?

if Nale had a single point in intellegence he would ahve at least left the Palace after Penelope died there was no benefit to staying in the palace after his info source disapeared and so many negatives (mainly sharing a living space with someone wholiterally wants to eat your soul and possibly even has access to magic that would allow him to do so)

As I have repeatedly pointed out, Nale's reasons for staying on after Penelope's death, but before the arrival of the Order, are likely to have been emotional rather than strategic ones. And come on... we know that Nale thinks he is a super genius. Even if he's really not (hint: he's not), he thinks that his superior intellect will allow him sneak around undetected, and ultimately outfox anything bad that will come his way. Overestimating his own power and intelligence is par for the course with Nale.

well they cant offer him an epic level sorcerer since hes already got one of those, and an epic level sorcerer is all he needs for the plan

plus as you have stated so many times devils arnt known for being trustworthy and Redcloaks the only competent person in the comic so he wouldnt trust the IFCC ever

...so you're saying that if the IFCC offered to kill Xykon, revive Right-Eye and his entire family, and provide Redcloak with a shiny new epic-level sorcerer who was much more obedient than Xykon, he'd refuse? We have no idea what the IFCC is capable of offering (and, again, I don't think the above scenario is going to happen, or that the IFCC even has the power to make it happen, but it is technically a possibility until we have a better handle on what the IFCC can do). Eliminating possibilities when you have no solid evidence for doing so is not wise.

your jsut not getting it, it is nothing like offering a new car for an old shoe, they took a good natured person, offered him immense power to complete his goal and offered him a perfectly reasonable plan that he could ahve done a way to not sell his soul to fiends and still do what he wanted and he still took the power

its not about what they offered and what they got in return its what they did to V so easily

they essentially turned a good soul into a bad soul with the drop of a hat

First off, let me point out that V is not, and never has been, good. She has been solidly neutral all comic.

Secondly, let me point out that, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum, the backup plan the fiends offered V is both unreasonable and unlikely to actually work. Whole threads have been devoted to this issue, and if you doubt it, I suggest you look up one of those, because I am not going to derail this thread further by rehashing them.

And finally, yes, it is about what they get in return. They turned a *neutral* soul *debatably* evil (and yes, this too has been debated ad nauseum on the threads, I will not replicate the arguments here) by offering it something huge and highly valuable. For devils making pacts, it's all about maximizing efficiency - getting the mortals to accept the least valuable thing you can give them for their soul (read the Fiendish Codex II if you don't believe me). If a devil can damn souls easily, but in doing so, expends more resources than the soul they acquire is actually worth, then that's a bad deal. Oftentimes, this minimization of expenditure is accomplished through loopholes and fine print. And admittedly, we don't really know how much one individual soul is worth in OotS-verse, but if providing someone with a soul splice in exchange for (maybe) getting their soul (for a little while), then it would be a much more common thing than a once-in-a-century deal. So yes, the IFCC did get V to accept their contract, but if what you're saying about everything being aboveboard is true, then it was a bad contract for the fiends. What they gave up wasn't worth it for what they might get.

but have no idea why or how they plan to accomplish that

but no idea in what way they plan to use the gates or how they plan to use the gates nor any evidence or foreshadowing on any of the above

i already talked about that, they needed V to actually do something more then getting owned by Xykon before he dies since they wanted him back in the game if he had died there then Xykon sits in Azure city for another year content with how awesome he is

irrelevant all it took was pretty much no effort at all from the IFCC and they wanted the order to remain strong to fight Xykon so didnt want one of there strongest memebers to die pointlessly which would ahve reduced the conflict substantially

by having Quarr say one single line to Z they extend Vs stay on the mortal plane meaning he has enough time to completely dive into the deep end of the alignment pool meaning one more soul for them and alot more future conflict and they wanted Quarr there because they may be starting to question Sabines loyalty (or if they didnt they very well could be by now hard to say without knowing Sabines orders)

First off, saying that having Qarr say one line to Z required no effort at all is not true, since it required the IFCC to put Qarr in place as Z's familiar in the first place. That's an awful lot of trouble to go through for no good reason.

And lastly... so, I prove they have a plan involving bringing down the forces of good, a plan involving a Gate, and at least two pieces of evidence which suggest they have a plan that requires a living V... and your response is that none of those plans are related? This doesn't seem like foreshadowing for anything? Okay, but I just don't see it. I think these dots are all connected, but if you don't, then more power to you.

I just remember, the 3 soul splices might not have been the ultimate power and the ultimate power might be the IFCC using V to either control the snarl are the actual blackmailing I predict

I agree with almost everything else you said, but the three splices really were the "complete and total ultimate arcane power". This is confirmed in the author commentary for "Don't Split the Party".

The recap of the Rangers and Devils game is throwing me off here so I can't remember exactly where I was going with it here, I think I had more I wanted to say.

Do you have a rooting interest for either team? I've been cheering for the Coyotes since my beloved Red Wings got bounced, but that's not going so well for me right now...

Nemeean_lion

2012-05-17, 10:05 AM

rgrekejin

2012-05-17, 10:29 AM

Wait so this discussion got from the Oracle, to the prophecy about arcane power, to the IFCC's plans and now to... Nale knowing about the gates? How did this happen?

Can anyone that read the huge walls of text summarize this in a few lines?

Certainly. It actually all started when someone was talking about the scene where the Oracle tries to explain all the ways Belkar "caused the death" of someone other than him, specifically the "As for the elf" part. This led to people discussing V's death. Someone chimed in that V would have to die in order for her pact with fiends to have any story significance. This was greeted by people expressing the opinion that V did not have to die in order for the fiends to take her soul. This led to a conversation about what V's soul could be used for before her death. The possibility of her doing something Gate-related was mentioned. Someone brought up the possibility that the Directors could just soul-splice Z and have him go take a Gate if that's what they wanted. That led to the objection that the fiends don't know where the Gates are, and a discussion about what the fiends know for sure about the Gates. Since the fiends essentially know what Nale knows, that brought us to a discussion of what Nale knows about the Gates, including if he knows their location or not. And now you're essentially up to speed.

Nemeean_lion

2012-05-17, 10:50 AM

Thanks.

Wait, I need to write at least 10 characters? Well then allow me to say-

rgrekejin

2012-05-17, 01:28 PM

You know, I wonder where Tsukiko's soul went when she died. If it ended up in the IFCC's hands somehow, they might know more about how the ritual actually works than we think, depending on how much information one can actually retrieve from a dead soul.

Forikroder

2012-05-17, 01:58 PM

Saying that the IFCC's goal is simply to "cause conflict" is over simplifying and sort of insulting them. These are Main Villains I think they are gonna have a crazy complex plan that has not been revealed yet. Just look at Redcloak and his scheming.

noone denying that, but somehow they need conflict to happen to pull it off maybe just as a smokescreen

But anyway back on track to V and the soul stuff and what not. There is going to be a pivotal point at a battle for one of the remaining two gates, I believe it is going to be our upcoming one. At this point the IFCC will take control of V and perform their plan. I think it will be something along the line of using control over the gate as leverage against the Gods. The recap of the Rangers and Devils game is throwing me off here so I can't remember exactly where I was going with it here, I think I had more I wanted to say. I just remember, the 3 soul splices might not have been the ultimate power and the ultimate power might be the IFCC using V to either control the snarl are the actual blackmailing I predict

ya next time maybe dont post at 2 am when you cant even remember waht you were going to post

V cant take control of a gate, he lacks the actual spell ability and they cant splice onto him since they cant go onto the mortal plane to deliver the soul unless there making a deal and V cant go to them since he has that school barrred

its not actually possible for them to soul splice onto V anymore unless V makes another bargain with them

Now something I just realized is that this would be a perfect opportunity to kill of Durkon and/or Belkar, I believe the current WMG has Belkar dying first. So V causes the death of his friend/foe Belkar and please tell me that is not poetic. V will be wracked with guilt with complete knowledge of what the bargain has caused. The only other way I see Belkar dying is if the snarl kills him similar to how it killed whats-his-dwarven-face for a parallel between the two parties.

actually V might consider Belkars death the only good thing to come out of his bargain with them >.>

Interestingly enough, V says in that comic that Shojo gave Roy the coordinates "when we first came in to his employment". As the Order had already gone on two missions my the time Nale showed up, I wouldn't think that would count as "first coming in to his employment".
well those missions happened over the span of like 2 days so that would still be considered when they first came into his employment

The point is, the Order talked to Lord Shojo a bunch of times that we never saw, but only once with Nale there

you have not offered any proof of that being true at all, they were only in Azure city for a couple days

You assume that that had to have been the coordinates, but it doesn't have to be. Roy could have been asking if Shojo had more information about how they are guarded, more information about the other members of the Order of the Scribble, more information about the challenges they might face on their way to the Gates, more information about how the enchantment which form the Gates works... anything.

Roy already knows that Shojo couldnt possibly know any of that stuff, he knows from the first tale that the scribble didnt share that information amongst each others on account of there no interference rule and he knows Shojos only agents are paladins who refuse to go anywhere near the gates

all Shojo knows is Kraagars gate is guarded by ferocious monsters and that Girards gate is guarded by cunning illusions and riddles

And since that time, Nale has shown no signs of knowing the actual coordinates of the Gates. Every single thing he has done is exactly what we would expect an adventurer to do if he knew the Gates existed, but did not know exactly where they are.

i am so sick of you repeating this line over and over and over and over and me giveing the exact same response: Nales actions are also the exact thing youd expect from someone as dumb as him

Here his plan to trick the Good Guys to let him in to the room with Talisman worked.

that doesnt count as a smart plan since they werent at all suspicious of him or were at all trying to keep an eye on him or rpevent him from doing something, if the order was actively trying to prevent him from entering the room and he tricked them into letting him in then it mgiht count as a smart plan

Here he sets in motion a plan that allows him to successfully infiltrate the Order by replacing his brother.

right, instead of KILLING the Order, he instead infiltrates it with the dumbest plan ever that would ahve been seen through a million times if anyone in the order was competent

Here he explains his reasoning for selecting Cliffport as the site for the ambush (which is actually quite brilliant, not merely adequately competent like some of the other examples).

oh wow, he looked up a law book clearly that shows his amazing mental abilities, he can READ!

Here he shows sufficient forethought to know that he cannot take a spellcaster in a straight-up fight, so he has prepared himself by buying a wand of enervation to even the odds.

ya and that fight worked real well for him, i mean how could he have possibly been able to look ahead and realised fighting in the house of the guy whos kids you personally killed was a bad idea

heres all the stupid stuff hes done

he desides to hire an apprentice wizard instead of finding someone who can actually do something useful

instead of using his tactical advantage to actually kill the Order of the stick in Cliffport he just replaces Elan and doesnt even bother to learn all the Orders names properly calling Belkar Balkar (or something wrong cant remember exactly what)

then he wastes a ton of time and misses his shot to actually kill Haley when he had the perfect opportunity (he misses an equally good chance to kill Elan but thats secondary)

then when V doesnt actually know which one is Elan he falls for an extremely obvious trick

then after escaping from Azure city he decides to go to the one place in the entire world that people are activel trying to find and kill him in order to hide out

then after he has no reason at all to remain there (after Penelope died and he couldnt gain any new information) he remains squatting in the castle only increasing the chance hes going to get found, then after realizing nthe order has come to the continent and has come to the Empire of Blood instead of fleeing the country and heading to the gate to beat the order there he decides to launch a spur of the moment ambush scenario which fails completely (not like it had the slightest chance of success with both Tarquin and Malack there)

THEN after he has lost all but one of his allies (and is seperated from that ally) even while hes critically wounded and the enemy is on high alert because of his ambush scenario he decides to turn invisible and hang around ALL OF HIS ENEMIES only to hear what they thought of his attack (since its literally impossible for them to divulge new information) which directly lead to him getting captured by Tarquin and being as good as dead

...so you're saying that if the IFCC offered to kill Xykon, revive Right-Eye and his entire family, and provide Redcloak with a shiny new epic-level sorcerer who was much more obedient than Xykon, he'd refuse?

yes he would, as soon as Xykon casts the ritual REdcloak can do all that and more by himself and he knows he can control Xykon and knows Xykons too dumb to double cross him hes not going to team up with some unkown force

he has control over Xykon, he has his Phylactery, Redcloak can end Xykon whenever he wants Xykon literally cannot double cross Redcloak why would he leave his completely trustworthy ally whos probably the single most powerful being on the mortal plane to team up with the demons?

Secondly, let me point out that, as has been discussed on this forum ad nauseum, the backup plan the fiends offered V is both unreasonable and unlikely to actually work. Whole threads have been devoted to this issue, and if you doubt it, I suggest you look up one of those, because I am not going to derail this thread further by rehashing them.

it doesnt matter if it would or would not work, the point is V believed 100% it would work

And finally, yes, it is about what they get in return. They turned a *neutral* soul *debatably* evil (and yes, this too has been debated ad nauseum on the threads, I will not replicate the arguments here) by offering it something huge and highly valuable. For devils making pacts, it's all about maximizing efficiency - getting the mortals to accept the least valuable thing you can give them for their soul (read the Fiendish Codex II if you don't believe me). If a devil can damn souls easily, but in doing so, expends more resources than the soul they acquire is actually worth, then that's a bad deal. Oftentimes, this minimization of expenditure is accomplished through loopholes and fine print. And admittedly, we don't really know how much one individual soul is worth in OotS-verse, but if providing someone with a soul splice in exchange for (maybe) getting their soul (for a little while), then it would be a much more common thing than a once-in-a-century deal. So yes, the IFCC did get V to accept their contract, but if what you're saying about everything being aboveboard is true, then it was a bad contract for the fiends. What they gave up wasn't worth it for what they might get.

say whatever you want, look at Quarrs reaction after V leaves hes completely awe struck, whatever we think of there performance doesnt matter since an in character devil was left completely speechless at the mastery of there work

First off, saying that having Qarr say one line to Z required no effort at all is not true, since it required the IFCC to put Qarr in place as Z's familiar in the first place. That's an awful lot of trouble to go through for no good reason.

no it wasnt it would take 3 seconds

Sabine: Hey z i see V has a familiar want one?
Z: sure
Quarr: hey nice to meet you

there done deal

and at least two pieces of evidence which suggest they have a plan that requires a living V

you must have forgotten to link them since i refuted the ones you mentioned

(jsut in case you need a refresher, there original statement that if V dies its all been for nothing doesnt show that they need V alive since at the time of the statement V hadnt lost Xykons Phylactery, if the statement had been made after V lost his phylactery you would have a compelling argument and Quarr giving Z different coordinates doesnt show squat since they have said they dont want Xykon to win to Quarr so they want the Order to be at full strength when they fight)

rgrekejin

2012-05-17, 03:57 PM

well those missions happened over the span of like 2 days so that would still be considered when they first came into his employment

Says you. That may or may not be true, but I'm just adding this to the increasingly huge pile of circumstantial evidence you've had to explain away in order for your theory to remain intact.

you have not offered any proof of that being true at all, they were only in Azure city for a couple days

Not true. I've shown that there was at least one other conversation, plus that there are big off-screen chunks of several other conversations we only saw part of in-panel. Maybe Shojo gave Roy the coordinates in the very first conversation. Maybe he never told them to him at all, and instead wrote them down and had a courier deliver the letter to Roy at the Inn. The point is, for your theory to work, Roy would have had to receive the coordinates in one very specific conversation. For mine to work, Roy would have had to receive the coordinates in literally any other conversation, letter, smoke signal, blinked morse code message, or telepathic communication except that very specific one. And as there is only one weak piece of evidence to suggest that Shojo gave him the coordinates during the conversation you suggest, and a bevy of evidence to suggest otherwise, odds seem to be in my favor.

Roy already knows that Shojo couldnt possibly know any of that stuff, he knows from the first tale that the scribble didnt share that information amongst each others on account of there no interference rule and he knows Shojos only agents are paladins who refuse to go anywhere near the gates

all Shojo knows is Kraagars gate is guarded by ferocious monsters and that Girards gate is guarded by cunning illusions and riddles

All the members of the Order of the Scribble were present when the holes were originally sealed. Maybe Soon passed on some information about that. Maybe Roy is looking for some general background information on the Western Continent were Girard's gate is. Since he's going to have to journey out that way, he may as well be prepared. The point is, when you say "The only thing Roy could possibly have been after in that conversation is the exact coordinates" you're assuming a lot of things with no reason to, other than that that would have to be what happened in order for your theory to work.

i am so sick of you repeating this line over and over and over and over and me giveing the exact same response: Nales actions are also the exact thing youd expect from someone as dumb as him

You know why I keep repeating it? Because your explanation for it doesn't work. If this is just a case of Nale being stupid, there are literally thousands of ways that Nale could have been stupid. He could have gone to Kraagor's gate and sat around picking his nose, waiting for something to happen. He could have gone to the Empire of Tears, and tried to get them help him find Girard's Gate (Never mind that he knows they're led by Tarquin's allies! Nale is so completely and utterly stupid that I'm sure he'd forget that too!). He could have tired to sell the locations of the new gates to Xykon, since I don't recall him knowing that Xykon knows exactly where to find the next few Gates. The possibilities are endless.

There is only one reasonable course of action for Nale if he knows about the Gates, but does not know the exact coordinates.

Gee, guess which one of these he actually did.

The chances of Nale choosing that one, very specific course of action out of all the other ways he could have been stupid are so infinitesimally small that the only way it could actually be true is if Rich is deliberately screwing with us by having Nale act like he doesn't know the exact location of the Gates even if he really does, for no real reason. And I think we can both agree that that isn't what's going on here.

that doesnt count as a smart plan since they werent at all suspicious of him or were at all trying to keep an eye on him or rpevent him from doing something, if the order was actively trying to prevent him from entering the room and he tricked them into letting him in then it mgiht count as a smart plan

Because picking someone with no reason to suspect you're evil as the people you want to trick in to accomplishing a task you can't shows that he's dumb... how? Would you rather he picked people who did know he was evil? How would that have been smarter? Remember, you're not saying Nale is dumb. You're saying that Nale is so impossibly dumb that he has a second set of working coordinates, and has apparently just forgotten about them. That sets the bar pretty low. So I'm not trying to show that Nale is the smartest character ever, just that he's not so rock-stupid as he would have to be to ignore a second set of coordinates. I don't need to prove that he's a genius, I just need to show that he has more brains than a bowl of oatmeal.

right, instead of KILLING the Order, he instead infiltrates it with the dumbest plan ever that would ahve been seen through a million times if anyone in the order was competent

...so now you are arguing that not only is Nale dumber than a box of rocks, but the entire Order is too? Is anyone other than the IFCC smart in this comic?

oh wow, he looked up a law book clearly that shows his amazing mental abilities, he can READ!

Because someone who can think far enough ahead to anticipate that the Order might use magic to make him tell the truth and specifically guard against it is too dumb to remember that he has a second set of working coordinates.

ya and that fight worked real well for him, i mean how could he have possibly been able to look ahead and realised fighting in the house of the guy whos kids you personally killed was a bad idea

Because having one of the two or three people in the entire city who is capable of beating him in a straight-up fight stumble upon him just when he was about to finish off his targets shows that he's stupid? That's not being dumb, that's just bad luck. Yeah, he could have picked a better venue for the fight (and, to be fair, he did, Elan just got away from him), but the wand worked great against its intended targets. So, even if his strategy was bad, he was at least intelligent enough to get himself an item that helps him a ton in a fight.

heres all the stupid stuff hes done

he desides to hire an apprentice wizard instead of finding someone who can actually do something useful

instead of using his tactical advantage to actually kill the Order of the stick in Cliffport he just replaces Elan and doesnt even bother to learn all the Orders names properly calling Belkar Balkar (or something wrong cant remember exactly what)

then he wastes a ton of time and misses his shot to actually kill Haley when he had the perfect opportunity (he misses an equally good chance to kill Elan but thats secondary)

then when V doesnt actually know which one is Elan he falls for an extremely obvious trick

then after escaping from Azure city he decides to go to the one place in the entire world that people are activel trying to find and kill him in order to hide out

then after he has no reason at all to remain there (after Penelope died and he couldnt gain any new information) he remains squatting in the castle only increasing the chance hes going to get found, then after realizing nthe order has come to the continent and has come to the Empire of Blood instead of fleeing the country and heading to the gate to beat the order there he decides to launch a spur of the moment ambush scenario which fails completely (not like it had the slightest chance of success with both Tarquin and Malack there)

THEN after he has lost all but one of his allies (and is seperated from that ally) even while hes critically wounded and the enemy is on high alert because of his ambush scenario he decides to turn invisible and hang around ALL OF HIS ENEMIES only to hear what they thought of his attack (since its literally impossible for them to divulge new information) which directly lead to him getting captured by Tarquin and being as good as dead

Look, I'm not saying Nale is the super-genius he thinks he is. That is not a position I've ever maintained. Nale does do a lot of things that aren't very smart, and he does a lot of things that aren't strategically sound for reasons related to his ego or his emotions. But the level of stupid that you're suggesting he is (stupid enough to ignore a second set of coordinates when he could have just flown off to another continent and tried to take the gate there) is an entirely different level of stupid than anything we've seen him do in the past. Nale makes dumb decisions because he is overconfident, or prideful, or too full of himself, and as a result he underestimates his opponents and overestimates his own capabilities. None of the stupid things we've seen Nale do fit the with the sort of stupidity you're suggesting is taking place here.

yes he would, as soon as Xykon casts the ritual REdcloak can do all that and more by himself and he knows he can control Xykon and knows Xykons too dumb to double cross him hes not going to team up with some unkown force

he has control over Xykon, he has his Phylactery, Redcloak can end Xykon whenever he wants Xykon literally cannot double cross Redcloak why would he leave his completely trustworthy ally whos probably the single most powerful being on the mortal plane to team up with the demons?

I think the recent comics with Tsukiko's death show just how precarious Redcloak's control over Xykon really is, but that, again, is not the point. The point is, it is easy to imagine a scenario where the fiends know about Redcloak's ritual, but do not know enough about it to discard it as a viable option for themselves. There are also probably dozens of other scenarios, depending on what the IFCC actually does know, and when they knew it.

it doesnt matter if it would or would not work, the point is V believed 100% it would work

*gasp* so... are you suggesting... that the IFCC... TRICKED V during the bargain making process by doing something dishonest!!! By playing on her preconceived notions without correcting a misconception! I thought the whole crux of your argument was that they didn't need to resort to that sort of trickery.

say whatever you want, look at Quarrs reaction after V leaves hes completely awe struck, whatever we think of there performance doesnt matter since an in character devil was left completely speechless at the mastery of there work

Yup. A masterful job of manipulation and subtle dishonesty.

no it wasnt it would take 3 seconds

Sabine: Hey z i see V has a familiar want one?
Z: sure
Quarr: hey nice to meet you

there done deal

But the fact that they bothered at all indicates that V is probably more important to them than you've suggested. Why place someone in a position where they might potentially have the ability to influence someone who intends to do harm to V if the IFCC doesn't have any interest in protecting her? It's not like the IFCC just inserted Qarr right at that moment. They planted him well ahead of time.

you must have forgotten to link them since i refuted the ones you mentioned

Well, since your explanation for Qarr saving V was based on an incorrect assumption about the level of effort involved on the IFCC's part (as outlined above), I would say you haven't refuted them at all. Additionally, the IFCC had calculated that there was only an 84% chance that V would go after Xykon anyway. 16% is not a negligible number. It stands to reason that the IFCC would get something valuable out of the V deal, even if V decided not to attack Xykon at all, or else they aren't as clever as either you or I seem to believe. That puts the remark about "if the elf dies here, this whole thing will have been a huge waste of time" in a different light, doesn't it?

...as an aside, what makes you think that Xykon would have just sat around doing nothing if he easily beat V? Xykon can be pretty unpredictable, and I doubt that you or anyone else can make that statement with certainty.

Forikroder

2012-05-17, 05:28 PM

Says you. That may or may not be true, but I'm just adding this to the increasingly huge pile of circumstantial evidence you've had to explain away in order for your theory to remain intact.

2 days is still right as they entered employment theres no evidence to prove that Nale irrefutably doesnt know where Kraagars gate is

plus that there are big off-screen chunks of several other conversations we only saw part of in-panel

no you havent proved this at all, you havent proved there were multiple conversations, you only proved there was one other conversation off panel

he point is, for your theory to work, Roy would have had to receive the coordinates in one very specific conversation.

which makes perfect sense, Shojo told Roy EVERYTHING he knew (but the coordinates of them) when he explained the lore behind the gates, therefore if he wanted Shojo to tell him more about the gates then the only thing Shojo could tell him was where they are

For mine to work, Roy would have had to receive the coordinates in literally any other conversation, letter, smoke signal, blinked morse code message, or telepathic communication except that very specific one.

that doesnt meen anything, just because there are tons of other opportunities for Roy to ahve learned the coordinates doesnt mean im automatically false when you have no evidence at all that Shojo told him and i have evidence that he did tell him then (since that is literally the only information Roy could possibly be after)

All the members of the Order of the Scribble were present when the holes were originally sealed. Maybe Soon passed on some information about that. Maybe Roy is looking for some general background information on the Western Continent were Girard's gate is. Since he's going to have to journey out that way, he may as well be prepared. The point is, when you say "The only thing Roy could possibly have been after in that conversation is the exact coordinates" you're assuming a lot of things with no reason to, other than that that would have to be what happened in order for your theory to work.

Soon only passed down the coordinates, he didnt even include a general description of the surrounding area or anything he remember from his time there

if he wanted info on the continent he could ahve jsut asked Elan to roll a bardic knowledge or visited a library he didnt have to go talk to Shojo to get such common information especially since his and shojos relationship was supposed to be kept hush hush for obvious reasons

Gee, guess which one of these he actually did.

ooh did he find out where the gate is and then immediately go to secure it? oh wait he didnt

oooh did he learn where it is then spend as much time gathering resources then as soon as he saw someone else who was interested int he gate apear then go and claim? no... oh

oh well then did he go to the gate and lay an ambush for anyone who might follow? no?

well did he at least try and figure out if he was right that the order knew he was there before attacking them? no again huh?

cause id see those as reasonable courses of action

Because picking someone with no reason to suspect you're evil in to accomplishing a task you can't shows that he's dumb... how?

because picking the first joes you find is proof your smart?

it doesnt show hes smart but it doesnt show hes dumb it only shows he actually has a brain

You're saying that Nale is so impossibly dumb thathe has a second set of working coordinates, and has apparently just forgotten about them.

no im saying hes too dumb to figure out how to use the coordinates properly and look past his ego and go for the option with the best chance of success instead of the flashist one

...so now you are arguing that not only is Nale dumber than a box of rocks, but the entire Order is too? Is anyone other than the IFCC smart in this comic?

redcloak is pretty smart and Tarquin is pretty competent

Because someone who can think far enough ahead to anticipate that the Order might use magic to make him tell the truth and specifically guard against it is too dumb to remember that he has a second set of working coordinates.

what you jsut said doesnt make sense, im sure using magic to check if someone is guilty is illegal in everywhere with a decent jsutice system (hence the lack of magic at roys trial), he picked cliffport because its agonizingly slow procedure

Because having one of the two or three people in the entire city who is capable of beating him in a straight-up fight stumble upon him just when he was about to finish off his targets shows that he's stupid?

yes it does, if hes not smart enough to only engage in areas where its extremely unlikely for anyone to pass or at least try to move his targets into a more secluded area (like the construction zone we know is nearby) then it shows how dumb he is

Yeah, he could have picked a better venue for the fight (and, to be fair, he did, Elan just got away from him)

letting elan get away, another show of how dumb he is, he had elan grappled by Sabine and just because he got a bit jealous and had her let him go so they could have a talk Elan got away

if he had jsut saved the talk until after elan was dead the whole problem could have been avoided

Nale makes dumb decisions because he is overconfident, or prideful, or too full of himself, and as a result he underestimates his opponents and overestimates his own capabilities

right so instead of going for the easy target he assumes hes so awesome theres no way he can not take over girards gate so he decides to go home so not only can he get a gate but hell be able to snub his nose at daddy and make him look the fool by squatting in his palace andcapturing a macguffin so close to him

*gasp* so... are you suggesting... that the IFCC... TRICKED V during the bargain making process by doing something dishonest!!! By playing on her preconceived notions without correcting a misconception! I thought the whole crux of your argument was that they didn't need to resort to that sort of trickery.

im fully willing to get into an argument about the validity of the second option and the scenarios surrounding that but since you yourself said you didnt want to get into it i give you a chance to back out of it now

But the fact that they bothered at all indicates that V is probably more important to them than you've suggested. Why place someone in a position where they might potentially have the ability to influence someone who intends to do harm to V if the IFCC doesn't have any interest in protecting her? It's not like the IFCC just inserted Qarr right at that moment. They planted him well ahead of time.

for the exact same reason they gave V power in the first place, to light Xykons ass on fire and make them fight, plus its reasonable to suspect there starting to question Sabines loyalty since the whole time the order was on the boat NAle was doing nothing and Sabine was sitting back and letting him so if they could put a more loyal set of eyes in the LG why not? and aside from making sure the order doesnt get roflstomped by Xykon the next time they meet by ensuring V survives, Quarr also got a very good assesment of the current situation of Sabines loyalty, an assesment im sure the IFCC will be very glad to get

besides, by all accounts the IFCC is waiting for soemthing, theres something they ahve to wait for werher its for the grand FFA for a gate to happen or if its soemthing else right now there pretty mcuh twiddling there thumbs so there making small moves to ensure there plan goes a little bit smoother

Additionally, the IFCC had calculated that there was only an 84% chance that V would go after Xykon anyway. 16% is not a negligible number. It stands to reason that the IFCC would get something valuable out of the V deal, even if V decided not to attack Xykon at all

no it does not stand to reason, its a 84% chance that they get what they want, thats almost guranteed to be the highest chance gamble they had access to (and most likely the only gamble they had access to) so they took it

if they could ahve rezzed Roys father and spliced him im pretty sure htey would have done it

That puts the remark about "if the elf dies here, this whole thing will have been a huge waste of time" in a different light, doesn't it?

no it doesnt because there main goal was still to get Xykon moving

...as an aside, what makes you think that Xykon would have just sat around doing nothing if he easily beat V? Xykon can be pretty unpredictable, and I doubt that you or anyone else can make that statement with certainty.

because while he can kinda be a bit predictable i suppose he showed no hint at all that he was getting anything more then mildly annoyed he had to squat in Azure city and if he had jsut owned V he would ahve had another prisoner to toy with and had the satisfaction of getting to lecture and own some fledgling wizard, so some more good memories to look back on

also that unpredictibility would ahve made the IFCC want V to do alot of damage even more to ensure Xykon gets the message loud and clear