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Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 02:49 PM
So, I've seen the forum number for a long time now, but only in the last few weeks have I paid much attention to them.

The "Older D&D / AD&D and Other Systems" section has about 31,000 posts. This roughly counts for 7.4% of all the gaming related posts.

The "D&D 4e" section only has around 23,400 posts. This is about 5.6% of all the gaming posts.

Now for the big one. The "D&D 3e/3.5e/d20" section has about 365,800 posts. This counts for 87% of all the posts about gaming.

The only reason I bring this up is because I'm trying to figure out what this means. I have come up with two possibilities.

1. 87% of all the people that post in the gaming forums plays D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 and only 5.6% of them play D&D 4e. That means 4th edition is not as popular as it's predecessor.

OR

2. D&D 4e has such solid game mechanics that there is no need to ask questions on the forums. That means D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 is so complex, that people need to find answers to their questions online, rather than in the books.

What do you think?

hamishspence
2012-05-14, 02:50 PM
or, that the mentioned part of the forum has posts going way back to before 4E came out- hence it's had more time to build up posts.

Jeraa
2012-05-14, 02:53 PM
The 3.e/3.5e/d20 forums have posts dating back to 2006, and cover not only 3.X games, but all other d20 games as well. So its a forum for an many games, but mainly 3.X.

The 4e forums only date back to 2010, and covers a single game only.

The only way to get meaningful numbers out of this, is to pick a single date (say, the earliest post in the 4e forum), and count all posts made since that date. As it is, the 4e forum has 2 years worth of posts, while the 3.0/3.5/d20 forum has 6 years, 3x the amount of time the 4e forum has.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 02:54 PM
or, that the mentioned part of the forum has posts going way back to before 4E came out- hence it's had more time to build up posts.

For some reason, I hadn't thought of that. I kind of assumed they reset the posts every 10 years or so.

By the way, how old are these forums? When did the Giant stamp his big foot down in the playground for the first time?

Shadowknight12
2012-05-14, 02:56 PM
Or it could also mean that the people in these very boards prefer to talk about 3.5e rather than about 4e.

I am quite sure those percentages are reversed in other boards.

Jeraa
2012-05-14, 02:56 PM
The first comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) has a copyright date of 2003.

For the forums themselves, The Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?find=lastposter&t=215548) himself has a join date of 08-06-2003. I figure he would be the first member (or at least one of the first), so the forums were started in 2003.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 02:57 PM
The first comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) has a copyright date of 2003.

Were the forums available at that time?

hamishspence
2012-05-14, 02:58 PM
And the discussion thread index:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7333
narrows it down to September 25 2003.

Jeraa
2012-05-14, 03:01 PM
Were the forums available at that time?

I was editing my post when you replied, but yes. The forums and comic seemed to have started at roughly the same time.

Lateral
2012-05-14, 03:02 PM
Oh, remember that the RP forums were reshuffled not that long ago. All the stuff from before then isn't in any of the various subforums, and after the reshuffling there was a 4e subforum, so it's been around just as long as the 3.5 one.

The reason for this is that this forum is predominantly 3.5 players. After all, that's what it was founded on, the OOTS comic uses 3.5 rules (sort of), and a lot of people here didn't switch to 4e.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 03:03 PM
So another question that comes to mind is this:

Will there be a forum specifically for D&D Next(5th edition)? If the answer is "Yes", then will they be grouping 4th edition into the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 forums, or will they still be seperate?

Tengu_temp
2012-05-14, 03:05 PM
This forum is very DND 3e-centric. If you want to compare the popularity of different RPG systems in general, your best bet is to compare book sales.

Jeraa
2012-05-14, 03:06 PM
While there will probably be a 5e Next forum, 4e will not be included in 3.0/3.5/d20. 4e is not a d20 system game. Thats why it has its own separate forum now. They are two different systems entirely.

Xiander
2012-05-14, 03:07 PM
Honestly, there is a huge selection bias. The only thing you can conclude, is that more people talk about 3,5 on these boards.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 03:10 PM
This forum is very DND 3e-centric. If you want to compare the popularity of different RPG systems in general, your best bet is to compare book sales.

How would you even find the numbers for that? :smalleek:

Jeraa
2012-05-14, 03:10 PM
This forum is very DND 3e-centric. If you want to compare the popularity of different RPG systems in general, your best bet is to compare book sales.

That will tell you nothing useful. 3.x still has years more sales time then 4e, and comparing book sales leaves out electronic media (.pdfs) entirely. You also wouldn't be able to differentiate between people buying only 1 version of the game, and people buying both but preferring one over the other.

It also doesn't differentiate between 1000 people buying a book, and 500 people buying 2 copies of the book. I myself own two complete copies of the 3 core rulebooks for 3.5.

That, and the only people who know what the total sales was is WotC themselves, and they aren't talking. Looking at the number of books sold will tell you nothing useful. Nor will looking at total sales (dollar) amount - I never paid full price for any of my books.

GRM13
2012-05-14, 03:22 PM
I think it should be also noted that having wizard reboot their servers to just 4.0 probably affected a few (having those who prefer 3.5 come here, while more adamant fans of 4.0 going to wizard were others with their preference also gather).

Tyndmyr
2012-05-14, 03:24 PM
This forum is very DND 3e-centric. If you want to compare the popularity of different RPG systems in general, your best bet is to compare book sales.

This is good advice. This community is a subset of the larger roleplaying community, and you can't safely extrapolate what's true about us to...everyone else who games.

Looking at # of books sold, on the other hand, gives you a pretty good idea of the customer base of an edition. Vastly more accurate. There's a lot of best seller lists you'd want to go over historically to compare this sort of data.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 03:26 PM
I think it should be also noted that having wizard reboot their servers to just 4.0 probably affected a few (having those who prefer 3.5 come here, while more adamant fans of 4.0 going to wizard were others with their preference also gather).

Oh wow! I haven't been to the Wizard forums in years, but if I had been a regular poster there, I would have stopped going if they had done that.

Jeraa
2012-05-14, 03:27 PM
Oh wow! I haven't been to the Wizard forums in years, but if I had been a regular poster there, I would have stopped going if they had done that.

They still have a section for 3.0/3.5 stuff. Its just been shoved into the D&D Precious Editions forums with all editions prior to 4e. It does still see some use, but is mostly dead. Weeks can pass on some of the subforums (like the Psionics one) before a post is made.

onemorelurker
2012-05-14, 03:40 PM
Or it could also mean that the people in these very boards prefer to talk about 3.5e rather than about 4e.

I am quite sure those percentages are reversed in other boards.

I think Shadowknight is correct about this. "People on the GiantITP boards" isn't a random sample of all tabletop gamers, even if you, for instance, limited yourself to posts made in the last year, and the demographics here may not reflect the demographics of other sites, let alone tabletop gamers as a whole.

Tengu_temp
2012-05-14, 03:45 PM
That will tell you nothing useful. 3.x still has years more sales time then 4e, and comparing book sales leaves out electronic media (.pdfs) entirely. You also wouldn't be able to differentiate between people buying only 1 version of the game, and people buying both but preferring one over the other.


Do note that comparing the numbers of core rulebooks sold will give you a very rough idea on how many groups play each edition. Being out for longer is also a facet of popularity.


How would you even find the numbers for that? :smalleek:

Invisible imp servants.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-14, 03:59 PM
Invisible imp servants.

Unfortunatly I went through a rebuild quest this last Winter and I no longer have access to my "Invisible imp servants" class ability.

What do you think I can accomplish with my new "Extreme Lazyness" and "Immunity to Sarcasim" abilities?

Lateral
2012-05-14, 04:05 PM
What do you think I can accomplish with my new "Extreme Lazyness" and "Immunity to Sarcasim" abilities?

Talk show host. :smalltongue:

nedz
2012-05-14, 04:43 PM
There are probably several reasons, but the main one I suspect is that when they split the forums, they left most of the old posts in the 3.5 thread. Think about how much work that would have taken if they hadn't ?

Lateral
2012-05-14, 08:21 PM
There are probably several reasons, but the main one I suspect is that when they split the forums, they left most of the old posts in the 3.5 thread. Think about how much work that would have taken if they hadn't ?

Actually, they left it in this forum, the Roleplaying Games forum- originally, there was only this one, not the 3.5 one.

For example, these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) old (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123126) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104452); all clearly 3.5, and all clearly before the reshuffle, and they're in the RP forum. I believe there are a few threads that did get moved to the new 3.5 forums, like the X stat to Y bonus, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) but that's an exception, probably because it's in the Notable Threads sticky or something.

PersonMan
2012-05-15, 08:27 AM
Actually, they left it in this forum, the Roleplaying Games forum- originally, there was only this one, not the 3.5 one.

For example, these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) old (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123126) threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104452); all clearly 3.5, and all clearly before the reshuffle, and they're in the RP forum. I believe there are a few threads that did get moved to the new 3.5 forums, like the X stat to Y bonus, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) but that's an exception, probably because it's in the Notable Threads sticky or something.

People helped by flagging threads that should be moved. Big reference threads would be mentioned quickly, but I doubt anyone would want to trawl a few dozen pages just to say 'move this, this, this, this, this...'

eepop
2012-05-15, 12:24 PM
I think its mostly just that people have over time self-segregated to forums that favor their favored edition.

GitP is very 3.5 centric as you have shown.
RPGNet seems to swing in the 4E direction.
And of course, the official WotC forums are going to focus on whatever edition is current at the time.


Some folks frequent multiple forums. I like 3.5 and 4E. When I have something to discuss on 3.5 I generally come here to GitP, if I want to discuss 4E, I prefer RPGNet.

Ashtagon
2012-05-15, 12:41 PM
Honestly, there is a huge selection bias. The only thing you can conclude, is that more people talk about 3,5 on these boards.

This.

Go visit the SJG forums, and you'd barely realise that D&D any edition even exists.

Yora
2012-05-15, 12:45 PM
I say the reason is that if you are looking for an active 3rd Edition forum, GitP seems to be the place to go. I don't know of any other forum with that much activity. So if you have accounts on multiple forums and a 3rd Edition question, you come here, because you'll get the best replies.

If you have a 4th Edition question, you go to the offical WotC-Forums, because there you get the most replies from people who know the game best.

Same thing for Pathfinder and the Paizo forum.

hamishspence
2012-05-15, 12:51 PM
I recall EN World having a moderately active 3.5 forum even after 4E came out- I'm not sure how active theirs still is though.

Totally Guy
2012-05-15, 12:53 PM
RPGNet seems to swing in the 4E direction.

Really? Only 14% of posts are specifically about D&D when compared with the Tabletop open forum.

nedz
2012-05-15, 12:54 PM
There is also the fact that the 3.5 sub-forum hosts regular events such as Monkday, Build me the most powerful character evar, peach me my house rules, peach me my T1 nerfs, ..., etc. :smallbiggrin:

They also host the excellent Iron Chef threads as well. :smallcool:

nedz
2012-05-15, 12:56 PM
I recall EN World having a moderately active 3.5 forum even after 4E came out- I'm not sure how active theirs still is though.

I came here after that got down to 3 regular posters, and then the smurfs arrived.

Trixie
2012-05-17, 01:17 PM
The first comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) has a copyright date of 2003.

Were the forums available at that time?

Actually, it's the other way around - the comic started as sort of ad for articles/forums after they started, as evidenced...


And the discussion thread index:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7333
narrows it down to September 25 2003.

...here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9014), example thread that was around long before first comic.

Ah, the old days of internet fails...

Kurald Galain
2012-05-17, 01:33 PM
How would you even find the numbers for that? :smalleek:

From book sellers, of course. Several of them frequent the forums at ENworld.org. Word from the book market is that Pathfinder has been consistently outselling 4E for over a year now, and that 4E's "Heroes of" line wasn't the big success WOTC was hoping for.

Of course, the fact that WOTC has been working on 5E for several months now should be a strong indication that 4E isn't selling so well any more.

Kansaschaser
2012-05-17, 03:12 PM
I bought the 4th edition books (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual 1) and played it for several months.

We all ended up quiting 4th edition and we picked up playing Pathfinder and/or going back to 3.5.

So, I contributed to the 4th edition purchases, but I don't play it anymore. I still play Pathfinder and 3.5. I don't think I'm unique in this regard. In fact, I think my experience is very typical of the 4th edition experience.

Knaight
2012-05-17, 11:54 PM
From book sellers, of course. Several of them frequent the forums at ENworld.org. Word from the book market is that Pathfinder has been consistently outselling 4E for over a year now, and that 4E's "Heroes of" line wasn't the big success WOTC was hoping for.

Of course, the fact that WOTC has been working on 5E for several months now should be a strong indication that 4E isn't selling so well any more.

However, 4e has DDI, which messes counting up a bit.

Kurald Galain
2012-05-18, 02:04 AM
However, 4e has DDI, which messes counting up a bit.

True enough, but they did fire the head of D&D last christmas, and the christmas before that too. That probably wouldn't happen if the line was highly successful, no?

Kansaschaser
2012-05-18, 08:03 AM
However, 4e has DDI, which messes counting up a bit.

Okay, my Google-fu has failed me. What is DDI?

GRM13
2012-05-18, 08:12 AM
Going to take a guess that it's Dungeons & Dragons Insider.

Knaight
2012-05-18, 03:40 PM
True enough, but they did fire the head of D&D last christmas, and the christmas before that too. That probably wouldn't happen if the line was highly successful, no?

True. I don't think it's a highly successful line, I'm just pointing out that DDI screws up book counting as it provides an alternative source to get the books that still makes WotC money.

Tyndmyr
2012-05-18, 03:59 PM
I bought the 4th edition books (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual 1) and played it for several months.

We all ended up quiting 4th edition and we picked up playing Pathfinder and/or going back to 3.5.

So, I contributed to the 4th edition purchases, but I don't play it anymore. I still play Pathfinder and 3.5. I don't think I'm unique in this regard. In fact, I think my experience is very typical of the 4th edition experience.

Seems normal, but if you resell those books, there's a good chance they eventually end up with someone who plays with them. It's notable that 4e used price is not typically very high.

In addition, you will probably not buy the later splatbooks, so your decision to quit does still affect book sales.

Is it rough? Oh, definitely, but it's of more value than mere forum post count.

Reverent-One
2012-05-18, 04:38 PM
True enough, but they did fire the head of D&D last christmas, and the christmas before that too. That probably wouldn't happen if the line was highly successful, no?

That would mean a lot more if WoTC's Christmas firings weren't a tradition dating back to the 3/3.5 days.

Captain Six
2012-05-19, 06:56 AM
I think it should be also noted that having wizard reboot their servers to just 4.0 probably affected a few (having those who prefer 3.5 come here, while more adamant fans of 4.0 going to wizard were others with their preference also gather).

That's what happened to me. When the 3.5 forums got hacked up, shoved into a corner and 3.5 otherwise passive-aggressively discouraged I moved to this forum. I assumed that because it was a 3.5 D&D comic it would have a stronger 3.5 community and I wasn't willing to sit around Wizards and see whether or not it would get worse.