Nymph Druids...?

[Eonas]

So I'm in an Underdark monstrous campaign and I've made a Half-Celestial Nymph with room for one class level. The obvious choice would be to make that level "Druid" (since Nymphs cast as a level 7 druid by default), but I'm beginning to have my doubts. I'll only get wild shape at Level 5, by which time the campaign might either be finished. Even if I make it to that level, it'll probably be partly useless by that time (or at least, much less useful). Wild Empathy I already have as a nymph, and Trackless Step/Woodland Stride will be far less useful in the Underdark. And my Animal companion will probably be worth around 5-10% of a party member (since it'll be treated as if I were level 1, but in reality the party is ECL 12), possibly weaker than Summon Nature's Ally II or III. Instead, I'm considering going with a Prestige Class, especially the only decent one that I know of that would be decent-ish, the Hierophant. Problem: I need 15 ranks of Knowledge (Divine), but that's not a Druid or Nymph skill! Basically, I'm playing at level 1 with an ability to cast druid spells as if I were level 8.

Does anybody have any suggestions? I'm looking either for a way to make Druid not suck, or for a Divine Prestige Class that I would qualify for and that would work well with my Nymph.

[Spuddles]

A Half Celestial Nymph has an ECL of 17, not 11. A nymp has an ECL of 13 (6 HD + 7 LA).

Sooooooooo, is there something you're not telling us?

I would drop the Half Celestial and take 5 levels of druid.

Actually, I would drop the nymph, too, and use the half-nymph or even the fey touched race instead.

[Shadowknight12]

Yeah, your LA calculations are off. Having said that, you do not take druid for the animal companion, wildshape or class features. You take them because of the spells. And Nymph gives you a continuation of that (albeit not a good one, because of the LA) so you really aren't wasting anything from the druid class. You're sticking to the best thing of the class, in fact.

Having said that, using things "as written" for monster races or templates is awful and terrible. I recommend Oslecamo's nymph (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2101.msg22555#msg22555) and half-celestial (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2767.msg32504#msg32504) classes. See that both classes count towards druid spellcasting once you take your first level in druid, netting you the same spells a druid of the same level would have.

Before you say anything, yes, it is homebrew. But it's homebrew made by someone who actually knows exactly what he's doing.

[Jarveiyan]

The special edition DMG changed it to Knowledge(religion or nature)15.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

You still want to boost your druid spellcasting, your buffs and debuffs will be vital for helping your party. Also, you can summon monsters to slow down your enemies and give yourself extra actions per round.

For your animal companion, pick a bat or falcon or something small you can use as a scout.

[Eonas]

A Half Celestial Nymph has an ECL of 17, not 11. A nymp has an ECL of 13 (6 HD + 7 LA).

Sooooooooo, is there something you're not telling us?

Our DM rules an LA as the higher of "3/4 of HD" or "CR". So CR is 7, LA is +7. So in another campaign, you'd be right, but in this case, a Half-Celestial Nymph is +11 LA.


I would drop the Half Celestial and take 5 levels of druid.

Actually, I would drop the nymph, too, and use the half-nymph or even the fey touched race instead.

We're all expected to have a monstrous race and a template. If I dropped Nymph I'd have to come up with something else, probably around +3 LA, and then add Half-Nymph, that's +5 LA. It would give me a chance to take another 2 levels of druid, which isn't worth giving up the Nymph's ability to cast as a level 7 druid (essentially, I'd lose out on 5 levels of spellcasting).

Half-Celestial is droppable, though... I'll have a look for lower LA templates.



The special edition DMG changed it to Knowledge(religion or nature)15.

HA! Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.



You still want to boost your druid spellcasting, your buffs and debuffs will be vital for helping your party. Also, you can summon monsters to slow down your enemies and give yourself extra actions per round.

For your animal companion, pick a bat or falcon or something small you can use as a scout.

A scout. Hmm. Thanks for the tip.



Yeah, your LA calculations are off. Having said that, you do not take druid for the animal companion, wildshape or class features. You take them because of the spells. And Nymph gives you a continuation of that (albeit not a good one, because of the LA) so you really aren't wasting anything from the druid class. You're sticking to the best thing of the class, in fact.

Having said that, using things "as written" for monster races or templates is awful and terrible. I recommend Oslecamo's nymph (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2101.msg22555#msg22555) and half-celestial (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2767.msg32504#msg32504) classes. See that both classes count towards druid spellcasting once you take your first level in druid, netting you the same spells a druid of the same level would have.

Before you say anything, yes, it is homebrew. But it's homebrew made by someone who actually knows exactly what he's doing.

Yes, I know that spells are the best part of the druid class, and if I get nothing else I'm still happy. But what I'm looking for is a way to either make the rest of the Druid's class abilities worthwhile, or find a prestige class that'll give me a normal Druid spell progression while still giving me decent fluff abilities (e.g. the Hierophant).

EDIT: Wait, the Hierophant _doesn't_ give me more spells. Whoops.

[Randomguy]

You could take the swift hunter druid ACF. You lose wildshape and armour proficency, but you gain wisdom to AC (and several other benefits, like the ranger tracking stuff and favoured enemy, and the monk fast movement). This, in addition to your racial cha to AC, means you're going to be pretty hard to hit.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Take 3 levels of wizard (or not; I think there's a feat somewhere that lets you cast a single 2nd level spell at 1st level) and go into Mystic Theurge? It's normally not seen as optimal, but since you're already starting with a bunch of caster levels in one class...

[dspeyer]

The fun part is that as Chaotic Good creatures, Nymph's can't take ranks in druid. (All right, it says "Usually", but still...)

Most divine PrCs do want knowledge(religion). You could just take the Educated feat and get it. Or you could see if your DM will house-rule knowledge(nature) to replace it for you. Not that Nymphs get knowledge(nature) by RAW either.

Useful full-casting prcs... Sacred Exorcist would get you turn undead. You've already got tons of charisma. Contemplative would expand your spell list, which is very nice, but it's hard to get into. Divine Oracle expands it less, but it easier. Alienist is very easy to get into but isn't very useful.

[Snowbluff]

Take 3 levels of wizard (or not; I think there's a feat somewhere that lets you cast a single 2nd level spell at 1st level) and go into Mystic Theurge? It's normally not seen as optimal, but since you're already starting with a bunch of caster levels in one class...

Nah... you got to go Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) if you want to pull that off! Wildshape, combined Familiar and Animal Companion Bonuses, Spellcasting... the next best thing to playing a straight up Druid.

You could cap it off with MT for more Wizard casting, off you feel the need. Don't forget to cheese your way into only needing 1 level of Wizard! :smallsmile:

[Baphomet]

I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for, but it's something sort of giggleworthy: you already get your charisma bonus to all saves as a nymph, right? And that bonus is untyped... as is the divine grace bonus the Paladin gets at level 2. So, if you have base 18, +8 nymph, +4 half-celestial, and throw on a cloak of charisma +6 on top of that (should be within your WBL for your character, assuming you're getting the wealth of a 12th-level character) and you've got 36 charisma, 13 deflection bonus to AC, and +26 to every save, on top of a nice +13 smite evil. Plus, that's a reasonable profession for the offspring of an angel and a nymph...the angel side is happy because she's doing good in the world, and the nymph side is happy because she gets to lay her hands on people all the time (with a +13 charisma bonus!)
The downside: There's not really any reason to take paladin levels after those first two, and you'll have to remain lawful good (or any other non-neutral alignment, assuming you're allowed to use the variants) which means no druid. And the divine grace doesn't come in until second level, so you'd have to ride out a level. Still, +26 to all saves makes you basically untouchable to anything that allows a save.

[Larkas]

If you need/want to stack up a template on top of it all, you might want to consider the "Seelie Court fey" from Dragon Compendium. Your character would automatically qualify for it, it gives some nice stuff and has LA +0.

[mattie_p]

If you need/want to stack up a template on top of it all, you might want to consider the "Seelie Court fey" from Dragon Compendium. Your character would automatically qualify for it, it gives some nice stuff and has LA +0.

Under the rules of this particular game, Seelie Court Fey adds +1.

I am the DM in question. See the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242878) if you need clarification on any of the rules. Because all characters are monsters and freaks, I adjusted starting ECL to be basically CR, with some adjustments.


Starting ECL is 12. My method of calculating your ECL will be different from the normal rules. First of all, regardless of any final LA, there is no LA buy-off. However, start with a base creature. For the purposes of this game, and this game only, your base creature has the ECL of the higher of 3/4 of the published creature's hit dice (rounded up) or the base creature CR. A centaur starts this game at ECL 3, not ECL 6. A pixie starts at ECL 4 (without irresistible dance SLA) not ECL 5. A troll starts at ECL 5, not ECL 11. Use the published creature's hit dice, do not advance hit dice yet.

After you have a base creature with an ECL, apply template(s) as normal. All templates applied add the higher of the CR adjustment or the LA adjustment. If a template only adds CR, this is legal. Templates with LA -- or LA N/A are legal. Awaken is legal (for animal type only, and only once), but as it adds two hit dice, adds two to your ECL. Awaken construct keeps your racial hit dice and thus is not LA -2. You must have an int of 3 or higher at the start of the game. Undead is fine as long as you have intelligence, wisdom, and charisma statistics.

After you have finished applying templates, if you are not yet at ECL 12, you can now advance the creature. All classes (PC or NPC) are considered associated and add 1 to your ECL. If the base creature allows you to advance hit dice, you may advance that way if you wish, however, each added hit die adds 1 to your ECL.

As these are exceptional monsters, being both freaks and PCs, no alignment restrictions on characters, regardless of monster's alignment in the sourcebook.

Also, as exceptional creatures, skill points are not restricted to the "normal" entries. characters get skill points as normal, but if they have a casts as X class, they get all those skills as class skills.

[Eonas]

I ended up taking Seelie Court Fey instead of Half-Celestial, bringing me up to a handy 4th level. Wildshape is only one level away now! Yay! Thanks for the hel

Thanks to everybody who answered, you were all very helpful and I wouldn't have found a decent workaround except for you.