[3.5] Looking for tips on horrible stat rolls

[Zedicius]

I'm only used to point-buy, so for a change my group managed to find a DM that allowed us to roll for stat. I know that on average, stats should be a bit higher with 4d6, remove lowest... unfortunately the dice gods weren't with me this evening.

I ended up with 14 | 12 | 12 | 12 | 11 | 11, which is an abysmal 26 points, while the other players have at least 2 16s or 17s to play around with. I wasn't allowed to re-roll, or even shift my points around which, frankly, is ruining the game for me a bit. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas what I could do with these numbers.

I'm getting the idea that this guy is a 'traditional' DM, planning on running a low-magic, low-powered campaign. Flaws are not allowed, any other supplement is allowed though I think he might start to refuse things if he smells optimization.

So far I have three things in mind...
- A Goliath Charger, with 16 strength and Powerful Charge he should still be able to rack up some damage.
- Master of Many forms, stats are less dependent
- Vow of Poverty -> Apostle of Peace, because if I can't be good at anything, I might as well be awesome at not being good at anything.

Any other thoughts?

[animewatcha]

What level are you starting at? Can our caster specialists come up with ways for his character to kill himself ( force a re-roll ) at each ECL. Of course in a totally legit manner.

[Zedicius]

Level 1, and our fighter already suggested suffering a horrible death... while the DM was sitting right next too him. I don't think that's going to fly. At least not during the first session.

[Roguenewb]

Those are real rough. I can recommend Warlock maybe? Only t4, but they don't really care about stats, and hellfire warlock is pretty sweet. Binder is relatively similar. Frankly, you're in a lot of trouble.

[Spuddles]

I would go human druid. Get a riding dog animal companion and a riding dog wild cohort (a feat on the wotc website). See if the DM won't let you repick their alertness feat for light armor proficiency so you can put them in barding.

Prepare entangle, shillelagh and goodberry as spells. Maybe fill up on goodberry spells on off days, so you can stockpile healing. Equipment can be a longspear, a club, a heavy wooden shield, a tower shield (use it to take full cover, otherwise, just carry it on your back), hide armor, and a sling.

For mobility, you can ride one of your dogs, and then dismount in combat, stay in the back. Handling your animal companion is a free action. It's a move to handle your wild cohort. However, you can instruct your wild cohort to guard you out of combat, then anything that moves to attack you will get mauled. No action needed on your part.

What books do you have available? I assume you're starting at level 1. If you have Spell Compendium, prepare a lesser vigor. That heals 11 HP. Use it on those doggies.

[kabreras]

I would not play with these stats.
It is absurd to be crippled from the start on a character that you plan to play for a while.

But hey, i just dislike rolled stats as it may force peoples to play something they dont really want in a way they dont really want.

[rot42]

Spuddles gives good Druid advice. Conjurer (Summoner) is also an option, though level 1 is really rough; Malconvoker is one of the few classes worth losing a level of spellcasting. Either way you are choosing spells that avoid your low save DCs; just remember to Wish up an inherent bonus before you find yourself unable to cast level 9 spells.

Dragonfire Adept also works fine with any stats. Once you get a few breath effects to play with you even have some options beyond "reposition, spout flame".

[Zedicius]

I would not play with these stats.
It is absurd to be crippled from the start on a character that you plan to play for a while.

But hey, i just dislike rolled stats as it may force peoples to play something they dont really want in a way they dont really want.

I'll try to put an argument together for the DM then. It seems I only have two choices, either play a boring and under powered character, or play one that breaks the game.

Since it's low level magic, Druid with Vow of Poverty comes too mind.


What books do you have available? I assume you're starting at level 1. If you have Spell Compendium, prepare a lesser vigor. That heals 11 HP. Use it on those doggies.

He said 'anything is allowed - as long as it's not too extreme' which I can only interpret as 'if I don't like it, it's out' ...

[Spuddles]

I'll try to put an argument together for the DM then. It seems I only have two choices, either play a boring and under powered character, or play one that breaks the game.

Since it's low level magic, Druid with Vow of Poverty comes too mind.

It really depends on how you define "break the game". Battlefield control and healing druid your party will love, and your DM may appreciate it as it will give him some leeway if he tends to overbuild encounters.

Having a riding dog or two make attacks for you won't be that impressive, given that your melee party members will, at level 1, have double their attack and damage bonuses. In addition, they can flank and trip, which everyone loves.

In my opinion it's quite party friendly. With a 10 or 11 in intelligence, as a human, you're getting 5 skills points a level, and the dogs can track. You can be a secondary skillful character, as druids get decent skills.

If you wanted to break the game, you'd take ashbound and greenbound summoning, and use summon nature's ally 1 to summon a 20 str wolf that has DR 10 and entangle at will. You'd put warbeast on your animal companion. You could pick up natural bond and get a warbeast fleshraker at level 1. Nothing like an armored dinosaur trained for war to break the game. Oh, and you could go strongheart halfling so you could ride it around.

[Fyermind]

Those stats are still decent. Around where most DMs build their NPCs. You can play just about any character you want and the DM can handle it. Your only issue will be keeping up with the other PCs. If you are really worried about stats, I'd suggest Dragonborn Water Orc on a barbarian or crusader, but you mentioned the party has a fighter. You'll probably fit right in with a slightly optimized whatever-strikes-your-fancy.

[Zedicius]

Problem is that those roles are mostly filled already. There's already a druid in the party, and another plans to go for war priest. A wants to go for archivist and the fourth a plain fighter. What we don't have is a skill monkey, something which I doubt I qualify for.

I think me and the archivist are the only ones who know what 'optimizing' means, though so I don't expect many powerful characters in the group.

[deuxhero]

Given the DM's words on what's allowed, try swinging Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) by him. Put the 14 in Charisma and you are good to go. Works as a secondary class as well as a single class.

[animewatcha]

Level 1. Aka rookie at casting spells. 'Accidently' touch yourself for such spells like shocking grasp. Or heck, in practicing your conjuration ability, you summon monster and 'command it' to kill you.

[Randomguy]

I'd say dragonfire adept or maybe warlock, since both are relatively stat independent. If you go Dragonfire adept, try to pump up your Con as high as you can. You could try dragonborn gnome or dragonborn dwarf, or something similar.
If you go warlock, hellfire warlock with the bind vestige feat for naberious would be decent.


Wildshape ranger going into master of many forms would make stats irrelevant, but that won't kick in for several levels, so you'd suck until then.

[DeAnno]

For all your Con pumping needs never forget about mongrelfolk!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Pick any race with a penalty to at least one ability score. Put your 14 in that stat, and the 11s in whatever stats they get a bonus to. Your highest ability score is now 13 and you're automatically allowed to reroll them per PHB page 8.

[Mari01]

Pick any race with a penalty to at least one ability score. Put your 14 in that stat, and the 11s in whatever stats they get a bonus to. Your highest ability score is now 13 and you're automatically allowed to reroll them per PHB page 8.

Ooooooooooooo shiny. Although I must say I'm sick of rolling for die. It's no fun getting a decent modifier when the guy next to you rolls three 18's or something.

[killem2]

I would reroll, RAW, you are allowed to.

[smarti]

Jungle Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold Druid with a bow in the beginning ;) -

14 | 12 | 12 | 12 | 11 | 11

12-4
12+2-2
12+2
14+3
11+3-2
11+3

So you will end up: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Wis 17, Int 12, Cha 14
Be pitiful and whine a lot until you hit shapechange - just to make clear that you strongly disapprove with your gm ;)

[urbanwolf]

14 | 12 | 12 | 12 | 11 | 11

If your party needs a skill monkey I would go with a goblin rouge with a crossbow and go 10 str, 16,dex, 12 con, 12 int ,11 wis, 9 cra at first level you can have 11 to hide and move silently with 7 other skills to pick up if you live to level two brach into Swashbuckler (they have good synergy) make sure to pick up daring outlaw if you live long enough

another fun choice could be a Gnome Beguiler if your DM knows how illusions work with spell focus the racial bonus and +2 int that a 15 DC to save and not many low level monsters have good will try to get a heroic death in at level 3 or 4ish

If your DM is the kind that gives things saves all the time even when not dealing with you illisons do a grey elf and focus on enchantment instead

If heroic death is not in the cards focus on buff spells at higher levels

and try and have fun, a weaker character can still be a lot of fun

[doko239]

What books are available? Wizards-only material, or other stuff?

If Pathfinder were available, I'd say drop the 14 into Cha, the 11s into Str and Dex, and roll up a Synthesist Summoner.

[erikun]

A focused caster could work. 14 INT on a wizard or psion isn't terrible, although you'd want to play them smart and stay the heck away from combat until you can dominate it.

Druid could work. Again, 14 WIS isn't overcomable, and you have an animal companion to stick with you for something with decent stats.

A skillmonkey comes to mind, as you can still be useful with low ability scores. Bard is my first thought, focusing on buffing the party (possibly with Dragonfire Inspiration) and Diplomancy/Use Magic Device isn't terrible. Rogue probably wouldn't be as good, as you wouldn't want to get into melee with those stats. A Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter could turn out okay, as archery sucks anyways.


You might want to try going for a character with a single absurd ability score, and base as much off of it as you can manage. Arctic Dragonborn Dwarf is +6 CON, and a Warblade/Deepwarden can end up with most stats based entirely off Constitution or Concentration checks.

[Pilo]

Your stats are not this poor, you have no strength but you don't have any weakness too.

You will just have to play smart, you can't fail a roll if you don't roll one.

As your DM don't want optimized character, you may not feel many differences between you and your teamates.

I recommand strongheart halfling warlock (str 11-2, dex:14+2, con:12, int:12, sag:11, cha:12). Avoid picking invocations that require a save.

[Feytalist]

Allow me to rant a bit.

Your rolled stats come out at 26 points. Living Greyhawk allows 25 point buy. That's one more than standard RPGA rules. You have bonuses in 4 stats, and penalties in none. That's a net plus. So your fellow players are playing around with 30 or even 40 points; that has nothing to do with you.

You've said you're playing a low-powered, low-magic campaign. That's fine. Your character is right where he needs to be. Warlock is good for those stats. Druid as well. Don't try to kill your character, that's a cheap trick and no-one at the table is going to respect you for it.

It's very possible to have fun even with an average character.

[LordBlades]

Your rolled stats come out at 26 points. Living Greyhawk allows 25 point buy. That's one more than standard RPGA rules. You have bonuses in 4 stats, and penalties in none. That's a net plus. So your fellow players are playing around with 30 or even 40 points; that has nothing to do with you.

It has when all of them are in the same party and trying to be relevant vs the same challenges. Low point value in itself is no problem, low and high point values in the same party sometimes are.


You've said you're playing a low-powered, low-magic campaign. That's fine. Your character is right where he needs to be. Warlock is good for those stats. Druid as well. Don't try to kill your character, that's a cheap trick and no-one at the table is going to respect you for it.

Low-powered, low magic campaign which contains a druid, an archivist and probably a cleric, that's a bit of an oxymoron.
Killing your character may suck and feel 'cheap', but then so does forcing somebody to play with much lower stats than everybody else.

To the OP: If you're set on a skill-monkey, I'd suggest dragonwrought jungle kobold cloistered cleric, with kobold and trickery domain, going for Malconvoker.

Stats: 6(12-4) str, 14 dex (12+2), 12 con 14 int (11+3), 17 wis (14+3) 14 cha (11+3).

You won't be able to melee much, but you'll be able to pop all sorts of useful spells, have some pretty good skills, trapfinding and flood the battlefield with summons later in your career.

[Ceaon]

Dwarven Druid

Strength 11
Dexterity 11
Constitution 12+2
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 14
Charisma 12-2

Feats: 1. Spell focus (conjuration), 3. Augment Summoning, 6. Natural Spell, 9. Improved Initiative, 12. Quicken Spell, 15. Spell Penentration, 18. Greater Spell Penetration

Skills: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Survival

Animal Companion: Riding Dog

The druid summons things that has better ability scores than he has, and also has a riding dog that can fight, trip and has nice AC. From level 5 onwards, the dwarf can use wildshape to enter melee himself. He has a great spell list, and if he avoids spells that allow a save, the relatively low wisdom is not a problem. The build's not cheesy, it looks unoptimized because it's all PHB, it's fun, it's flexible, and playable from 1-20.

[Krazzman]

Your stats are not this poor, you have no strength but you don't have any weakness too.

You will just have to play smart, you can't fail a roll if you don't roll one.

As your DM don't want optimized character, you may not feel many differences between you and your teamates.

I recommand strongheart halfling warlock (str 11-2, dex:14+2, con:12, int:12, sag:11, cha:12). Avoid picking invocations that require a save.

I second this. If this is the Halfling race that gives a feat instead of +1 to all saves.
Take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, later Skill focus: Concentration and Extra Invocation or [Sudden Quicken (as this one has no prereqs) later empower spell like ability].
Invocations which are good: See the Unseen, Swimming the Styx, Entropic Warding, Flee the Scene, Fell Flight and Eldritch Spear. This should suffice until level 8.
See the Unseen gives Darkvision + see invisibility.
Swimming the Styx gives you swim speed and water breathing.
Entropic Warding grants you a 20% chance to be missed in Ranged Combat and you leave no tracks (although you can still be pinpointed by scent).
Eldritch Spear gives you 250 feet of blasting range.
Flee the Scene gives you Dimension Door in a smaller version and you leave a major image of yourself.
Fell Flight lets you flight.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe go Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) for something like Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 9. Get the Heart aspect of Dragonborn with the feat Entangling Exhalation (RotD) and spam it as often as possible. Take Crusader or Warblade if possible, otherwise go Fighter with the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels (he's a reformed thug) and Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) because free bonuses are free. Maybe even pick up the Mage Slayer line of feats (CA) or get Hidden Talent (XPH) for Deflective Armor and Focused Shield (RoS) along with the PH2 shield feats. Take Imperious Command (DotU) with the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS), and even pick up Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) if available.

Commoners are average, adventurers are exceptional, and there's not much reason for a completely average individual to even take up adventuring in the first place. NPCs even get an array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, it's equal to 25-pointbuy but it at least has two strong stats. The entire point of using pointbuy is to have high stats and dump stats, the array he rolled has zero dump stats and only one slightly strong stat. Comparing it to what its pointbuy would total is completely irrelevant, because if he was using pointbuy he could make those 11's into 8's and turn a 12 into a 16 and have a character who's at least exceptional at something. That he's rolled abysmal stats for a game with an anti-optimization DM means he's not very likely to make a meaningful contribution to the party.

[Zedicius]

Given the DM's words on what's allowed, try swinging Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist) Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) by him. Put the 14 in Charisma and you are good to go. Works as a secondary class as well as a single class.



What books are available? Wizards-only material, or other stuff?

If Pathfinder were available, I'd say drop the 14 into Cha, the 11s into Str and Dex, and roll up a Synthesist Summoner.

Pathfinder is not an option. And as I mentioned when it comes too books, he made a 'if I don't like it, it doesn't fly' statement. Something in those lines. This is why I think Dragonborn and templates and such won't be allowed. I kinda get the idea that even seeing a name like 'Something something race of something' is enough for him to ban it.


Pick any race with a penalty to at least one ability score. Put your 14 in that stat, and the 11s in whatever stats they get a bonus to. Your highest ability score is now 13 and you're automatically allowed to reroll them per PHB page 8.

I'll mention that, probably a longshot, though.


another fun choice could be a Gnome Beguiler...

I have been thinking about Beguiler and the Fiend of Possession PrC. Depending on what creatures he throws at us, that might get interesting. Anyone got any more info on Fiend of Possession?


Allow me to rant a bit.

Your rolled stats come out at 26 points. Living Greyhawk allows 25 point buy. That's one more than standard RPGA rules. You have bonuses in 4 stats, and penalties in none. That's a net plus. So your fellow players are playing around with 30 or even 40 points; that has nothing to do with you.

You've said you're playing a low-powered, low-magic campaign. That's fine. Your character is right where he needs to be. Warlock is good for those stats. Druid as well. Don't try to kill your character, that's a cheap trick and no-one at the table is going to respect you for it.

It's very possible to have fun even with an average character.


I'm well aware of that. I wouldn't have bothered to play or even start this thread if I thought it was unplayable. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to be annoyed at the situation. I'm here to ask for advice, after all.

Anyway, I think I have most of the information to build a decent druid. I know it's a strong class and I might end up enjoying it, though personally I'm simply not fond of the concept. I'd still like to keep my options open, for now and I've been reading the Dragonfire Adept Handbook. It seems like a decent pick, if I can get my CON up and use utility invocations. Feats might be an issue, though. Also sounds like I need to take a closer look at the warlock's invocations...

[Knaight]

Those stats are still decent. Around where most DMs build their NPCs. You can play just about any character you want and the DM can handle it. Your only issue will be keeping up with the other PCs. If you are really worried about stats, I'd suggest Dragonborn Water Orc on a barbarian or crusader, but you mentioned the party has a fighter. You'll probably fit right in with a slightly optimized whatever-strikes-your-fancy.

The elite array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. That means +2, +2, +1, +1, +0, -1. This array is 14, 12, 12, 12, 11, 11, meaning +2, +1, +1, +1, +0, +0. Sure, they come to the same total, but given that the first few matter much more than the last few (being in more important stats and all), that essentially means that maybe the first 3 count. That puts standard issue NPCs that aren't wimpy commoners or warriors at +5, and this character at +4. These stats are feeble, particularly as they're about equivalent to 14, 12, 12, 12, 10, 10, which is a low grade 24 point build that is actually below the Living Greyhawk standard.

As such, working around these scores with a character for whom ability scores aren't particularly important is probably the best option. Given that it sounds like everyone else is bringing fairly high powered characters, that means a druid.

[Xiander]

I would make a cowardly bard. Pump up charisma as much as you can. Make good use of your skill points and avoid being in the thick of combat if you can. If you can't, then you'll get a new character all the quicker.

[Golden Ladybug]

Warlock is definitely what you want to do. They can get by with 8s in every stat, and can pull their weight fairly well.

[Marlowe]

Those are not terrible stats by a long shot.

I think Warlock is best. The Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon allows reflex saves, which will not be that hard for people to beat if they're running off a Con of 14.

Warlock's blast allows no saves and requires only range touch attack rolls. Put the 14 into Dex or Con, take summon swarm as your first invocation, stick the 12s into whatever you didn't put the 14 on, others in Int and Chr. Buy a mail shirt and a longspear. Never make an melee attack that isn't an AoO.

[molten_dragon]

Your stats aren't ideal, but they aren't terrible either. As long as you play something that doesn't rely heavily on good stats to be functional, you'll be fine. Druid has been mentioned several times already. You could also make a perfectly functional archivist, wizard, or cleric with those stats. Especially if you grab a race that gives a bonus to your casting stat. They may not be quite as powerful as if you had better stats, but the classes themselves are more than powerful enough to make up for it, especially considering that you said most of the people in the group aren't optimizers.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This thread is so incredibly similar to another I posted in earlier tonight that it merits just quoting the same response:


Those stats aren't bad; they just aren't that exceptional. The number of 13s is a bummer, but really, you have no bad stat. This can be somewhat useful.

You also have some leeway as far as races are concerned to make adjustments. Can you afford to dump DEX? Then being a Dragonborn Dwarf makes you much more durable (18 CON > 14) for +0 LA by dumping DEX and CHA, which can make a good Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept (just put your attribute points by level into CON and buy a +CON item), or a Dragonborn Goliath for +1 LA by really dumping DEX, but getting a +4 to STR and CON out of it, which you can buy off and be a decent Barbarian or somesuch. An Orc makes you much stronger (18 STR > 14) by dumping your mental stats, which in this case just makes them mediocre, so you're not completely missing out, which again makes serviceable melee if you pick a high HD class(es). Combining these things, you could have a Warblade//Dragon Shaman with the Quicken Breath and Entangling Exhalation metabreath feats, or something to that effect.

This can be done a number of different ways; it just so happens that I was best able to think of ways for a STR/CON build to go if all stats are good (but none are great). Basically, you're used to min-maxing the raw ability score; how good can you be at min-maxing templates?

In addition to these tricks and those the other players have mentioned here, Mongrelfolk and Neanderthal Dragonborn are good, durable bruisers (and a Dragonborn Mongrelfolk is a great Dragonfire Adept at 20 starting CON), and Muckdweller is good for a ranged character or a Finesse striker/precision damage character with its +6 DEX and +0 LA.

Now.

Some more information about your "horrible stat rolls" and your "abysmal" 26 point buy. 4d6 drop lowest has an average dice roll of roughly 12.25. Your stats amounted to a average of exactly 12, with all your rolls falling well within the normative range as opposed to extremes. What you have here is a character that is almost perfectly "average" in a rolling system that yields uniformly above average characters. Which means you're still above average; just average among above average people.

Your character is NOT pitiful. The point buy equivalent is NOT abysmal. The 25-point NPC array that someone mentioned this Point Buy is better than is called the Elite Array, and is typical of elite (named) NPCs. This is in contrast to the 15 Point Buy, which represents average characters (10.5 average stat, or the average of a 3d6 roll). Your point buy equivalent is 2 less than the 28 Point Buy and 6 less than the 32 Point Buy, which are two of the most common forms of Point Buy used on these forums, and both of which represent truly exceptional and extraordinary characters (so your character is only slightly less exceptional and extraordinary than "exceptional and extraordinary").

What you are upset about is that the commonly held belief that all players are entitled to an 18 in their primary stat and a 16 in their secondary stat, and somehow can't function (period) without the stats they are "owed". You can function with a 14 in your highest stat, but the fact is, if you didn't, you *can* make that an 18 in the stat of your choosing, possibly with a 14 or 16 in your second stat (like, say, Con). It's quite easy to do. Just tell us what stat you "need" a 16-18 in to idealize your concept and we can work on it. CHA? Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar (+4 CHA). CON? Dragonborn Mongrelfolk (-2 DEX, +6 CON, -2 INT, -4 CHA). STR and CON? Dragonborn Water Orc (+4 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -2 INT, -2 WIS, -2 CHA), or a Living Incarnate Draconic Warforged with some other beneficial LA+1 template (and maybe also Dragonborn; it's that good). WIS? Either Lesser Aasimar (+2 WIS, +2 CHA) or Venerable Dragonwrought Jungle Kobold (-4 STR, +2 DEX, +1 INT, +3 WIS, +3 CHA). INT? Lesser Tiefling (+2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA) or Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold (-4 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT, +1 WIS, +3 CHA). DEX? Muckdweller (-6 STR, +6 DEX, -2 WIS, -2 CHA) or Lesser Tiefling (+2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA). That's every stat done serviceably with at least a 16 or 17, and for most of them I got lazy and didn't apply templates or cheese of any sort. You could easily do better by applying a single template.

If you find the idea of simply being "above average" insufferable, ask your DM if you can be treated as a single LA higher than your ECL. With LA +1, you could do a lot of things to advance these same concepts (a Draconic Dragonborn Water Orc, for example, gets +6 STR, -2 DEX, +6 CON, -2 INT, -2 WIS, and flight; with 14, 12, 12, 12, 11, 11, that becomes a 20, 10, 18, 10, 9, 11, oh hey that's a good array for a melee bruiser of the Barbarian/plate-wearing Warblade/Fighter variety, maybe you could use it for that). Even that, however, is unnecessary; even if you're constrained by 0 LA and "mediocre" stats, the only thing that is truly stifling you is your imagination.

[LordBlades]

Your character is NOT pitiful. The point buy equivalent is NOT abysmal. The 25-point NPC array that someone mentioned this Point Buy is better than is called the Elite Array, and is typical of elite (named) NPCs.

While it is better as far as the number of points are concerned, it's worse as far as character options are concerned. Most builds have at least one stat that doesn't matter much, so having a 14 (as opposed to 15 for the elite array)as your highest value hurts more than having an 11(as opposed to 8) as your lowest helps.


What you are upset about is that the commonly held belief that all players are entitled to an 18 in their primary stat and a 16 in their secondary stat, and somehow can't function (period) without the stats they are "owed". .

My impression was that the OPs main issue was not with how bad (or not) these stats are in an objective sense but rather how bad they are compared to what the other members of the group rolled.

[Marlowe]

My impression was that the OPs main issue was not with how bad (or not) these stats are in an objective sense but rather how bad they are compared to what the other members of the group rolled.

I'm not sure how posting on a forum can be expected to help with that.:smallconfused:

[Lonely Tylenol]

While it is better as far as the number of points are concerned, it's worse as far as character options are concerned. Most builds have at least one stat that doesn't matter much, so having a 14 (as opposed to 15 for the elite array)as your highest value hurts more than having an 11(as opposed to 8) as your lowest helps.

Better bottoms can be better if you're applying races and templates. Of course, dumping WIS on a character and then taking a WIS penalty race means a low WIS if you started with a dump stat of 11, but it's debilitating if the dump stat started at 8 (or worse). As shown, the Dragonborn Water Orc (if he can get it) is 18 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 10 INT, 9 WIS, 9 CHA, which is, functionally speaking, 32 Point Buy, with only two points wasted (the 9 WIS and 9 CHA could be better spent in DEX). Also, in exchange for a slightly weak DEX, you get flight.

To pull tricks of the same nature with an 8 point base and min-maxing, you end up with a higher STR, but are functionally useless in all your mental stats, which basically means you just *don't* skill, and your Will saves are going to fail. Of course, the same Point Buy equivalent can be emulated with, well, equivalent Point Buy, but would you willingly take the stats he did, template out (grabbing wings on the way), and end up with exceptional, but still functionally rounded stats, or would you min-max the Point Buy, template out, and be functionally good at only one thing?


My impression was that the OPs main issue was not with how bad (or not) these stats are in an objective sense but rather how bad they are compared to what the other members of the group rolled.

Yeah, about ten posts were made in the time that it took me to write mine, one of which was written by the OP, which helps explain the mindset some. Sorry, OP. I'm not going to edit my post now (I'm kind of on the fly now), but if it helps any, I'll feel like a shmuck until I do. :smallsmile:

EDIT: Actually, on this point: I'm DMing for a group that had twelve people, total, at its apex (and ten of those now). The two worst sets of rolls came from one of the women in the group, and her cousin, who she recruited; she rolled a couple of 14s and the rest 10s, and he rolled... Decent stats (a few 15s), but none of the decent stats could be applied to DEX or WIS, his two key stats (the rolling method was 4d6 drop lowest 9 times in a grid format). When she rolled, her mother was present; I apologized for the way the dice fell, but her mother looked at the sheet, rolled her eyes, and said, "well, it looks like you get to be average at something for once." She agreed to take it and roleplay it out. True fact: a battlefield controlling Shadowcaster with Umbral Touch doesn't need that much to handle in a low-level game (and in E6, the game is always low-level), but more importantly, if the rest of the party isn't being *****, the lowest-op players with the lowest stats can still contribute meaningfully, and you are *not* the lowest-op player. The E6 bit doesn't help you, of course, but if you're starting low, finding a NAD or SAD build isn't hard, even if you can't optimize two good stats out of your base stats.

[Zedicius]

Tylenol, your advice is appreciated. Your lecture, not so much.

Yes, I've stated my annoyance at the results. Compared too the other players (highest result is the Archivist with 17 | 16 | 16 | 14 | 13 | 13 who also knows a thing or two about optimizing), my rolls ARE horrible. Though at least I'm still willing to give it a -try-. That said, I don't want a character that's going to lag behind, because then the game will stop being fun. And if the game is no longer fun then what's the point of playing at all?


Yeah, about ten posts were made in the time that it took me to write mine, one of which was written by the OP, which helps explain the mindset some. Sorry, OP. I'm not going to edit my post now (I'm kind of on the fly now), but if it helps any, I'll feel like a shmuck until I do. :smallsmile:

EDIT: No worries dude, my above statement was made after the DM send me a mail suggesting I play a sorcerer or bard and that I could 'still make a valuable contribution too the party'... Meh. Also, my annoyance has changed a bit. It's not so much the stats, but I get the idea that the DM wants us to stick to the player handbook. I think he's unaware of most of the supplements out there.

[Adamantrue]

I don't know what other people think, but perhaps a Gnome Beguiler isn't a bad option here? 14 in Int, one of the 12s on Con, and 11 in Str, rest by priority.

Or Whisper Gnome from RoS, put one of you 12s in Dex, and the other 11 in Cha. That would give you Str 9 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 9.

That seems pretty playable to me, and fills party roles the other PCs probably won't (no competition means not being outshined).

[weenie]

I once played a wizard with basically the exact same stats ant It worked out great. I used Save or Sucks ony on occasions where it was pretty probable that they would do the trick, buffs nearly every encounter and most of all utility spells. It was actually nice to play a wizard that was not in godmode all the time and having to rely on your other party members. You have to look at it as a challenge! :smallsmile:

[Zedicius]

I just noticed Luckstealer from Races of the Wild... If I start out as Beguiler, would this be a possibility?

EDIT: Egh, never mind. Dependent on INT and CHA.

[caden_varn]

I'd say a lot depends on whether you expect the game to go on for more than a few levels, especially if you are thinking of taking a full caster. If so, it's probably worth asking for more information from the DM as to what is allowable, to set some parameters for people to work with. Maybe use some of the suggestions, like dragonborn water orc, to gauge his reaction.

I'd ask to give you a bit more detail on what is allowed, so that you don't spend ages working on a build that he will disallow instantly. Also, it's good to know if you will be able to buy magic items (like stat-boosters), or will you be stuck with whatever you happen to find?

It also depends what sort of character you like to play - I personally enjoy playing Bards, but they are mainly going to be buffing the rest of the group (at least at my low-op level). If you don't mind this sort of play they can be good fun and help the rest of the group out, without needing much in stats.
I wouldn't personally suggest a Sorc with those stats, but then I don't really enjoy playing Wizards and Sorcerors at all. so I am probably a bit biased.

Druid would be fairly solid - OK, so there is already a druid, but druid covers so much that you can have two druids with very different focuses. Talk to other and see what sort of thing he intends to do, and pick another part of the class to focus on.

Rogue - well, if you picked a race with a stat boost to the stat of your choice you may be able to be OK, but in a combat-centric game I suspect you may end up being a bit fragile. The lack of negatives helps your skills as you have a lot of skills from different attributes, but I would personally prefer a bit more of a boost to the 'main' stat, depending on what sort of thing you want to concentrate on.

Finally, it seems like your DM is at least aware of your concerns, based on his comments, so hopefully he will be inclined to be generous to your build suggestions. If you try it and it it does not work out, talk to him about retiring the character.

[Zedicius]

Also, it's good to know if you will be able to buy magic items (like stat-boosters), or will you be stuck with whatever you happen to find?

The second, something he explicitly stated.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Tylenol, your advice is appreciated. Your lecture, not so much.

Yes, I've stated my annoyance at the results. Compared too the other players (highest result is the Archivist with 17 | 16 | 16 | 14 | 13 | 13 who also knows a thing or two about optimizing), my rolls ARE horrible. Though at least I'm still willing to give it a -try-. That said, I don't want a character that's going to lag behind, because then the game will stop being fun. And if the game is no longer fun then what's the point of playing at all?



EDIT: No worries dude, my above statement was made after the DM send me a mail suggesting I play a sorcerer or bard and that I could 'still make a valuable contribution too the party'... Meh. Also, my annoyance has changed a bit. It's not so much the stats, but I get the idea that the DM wants us to stick to the player handbook. I think he's unaware of most of the supplements out there.

If the DM restricts you, with your relatively low stat layout, to core, but your friend there with the best set of rolls gets to be an Archivist, you are going to have problems. In that case, a Water Orc Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (with no other modifications) uses only SRD content, has a stat layout of 18/12/14/10/9/9 or 16/12/16/10/9/9, both of which are serviceable and improved by Whirling Frenzy. Then, find out whatever combat role your Fighter friend is playing and then do the opposite (2HF vs. TWF, grapple vs. reach trip, etc), so as not to step on any toes. It can be done well; it's just... Harder.

Talk with the DM and find out how permissive he's willing to get. You can "optimize" to get on the other players' level; it's not hard unless the DM makes it hard.

Sorry again about the tone of my first post. Something about all the "kill yourself/be an Elan with your highest stat in CHA to force a reroll, and defeat the DM" suggestions irked me, as a DM myself. Like turning this from a "DM horror stories" thread into a "PC horror stories" thread is going to make the bad people go away. I mean, some actions call for extreme reactions (like quitting), but this... Isn't a "Killer GM" scenario by a long shot. It didn't seem to warrant all of the "Summon Monster, sic yourself" posts.

[Musco]

It has when all of them are in the same party and trying to be relevant vs the same challenges. Low point value in itself is no problem, low and high point values in the same party sometimes are.

I have nothing against this poster's perspective, but his paragraph summed up greatly a bunch of stuff I'd say, so I'm borrowing it.

OP: I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that every allied human being in the world has comparable strengths, weaknesses and are equally good at everything. RPG is more than just a game, it's an experience: the opportunity to be someone else for a change. It doesn't mean you have to be equally good at everything as everyone else, luck, unfortunately, plays a factor, just as it has in this case (and it does in real life, for instance). You're not crippled, just "average", so you can get by just fine (heck, those stats are probably higher than our own would be, and WE get by in life just fine, I assume - at least, I do).

This thread seems more to me like you're whining: "I was tired of point-buy, wanted to roll for a change and everyone rolled better than me, so I want a mulligan!".

Why then not have everyone at the table just roll stats, pick the one who rolled highest and give THOSE stats to everybody? Because this would suck. This would just be a corruption of point-buy, which is a balanced system on its own.

You wanted to roll, you wanted to get higher than point-buy, and you were out of luck. The other weren't, though, so your idea works. It is true. You get slightly better characters. You just didn't.

I'd suck it up and play whatever I had the most fun with, stats be damned.

If, however, you DO want to "kill youself" legitimally, just play a Paladin with Vow of Poverty, and make yourself a martyr. Run headfirst into danger unarmored, and keep fighting until you drop. Never retreat, never surrender, neve compromise.

That should probably kill you in 2-3 encounters. If the DM insists on "forcing" you all to rest between each one just so you can't die - which btw would mean he's a jerk and a douche... just saying... -, volunteer to guard everyone and refuse to take the 8-hour break yourself. Or go scouting to make the group safe, and the moment the DM get's tired and rolls up a random encounter, say that you won't make any noise and call for help, since it's a really dangerous monster, and will instead lure it away from your friends, so you can protect them (you get the idea... improvise).

You'll get an epic death like a true martyr (or they will say you were just stupid to endanger yourself that way, it depends on who you're playing with, character-wise and player-wise) and your reroll, just think really long if that's what you actually want, because it does not seem you want to "roll for a change", it seems you want to "roll so I can get a stronger character than point-buy allows", which means you'll just go through this process over and over again until lady luck smiles on you or your DM gets tired and gives you the stats you want, which not only will lead to you being the "whiner" of the group, but probably getting kicked out if you keep pulling this crap and changing characters every session until you "roll well".

[Zedicius]

OP: I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that every allied human being in the world has comparable strengths, weaknesses and are equally good at everything. RPG is more than just a game, it's an experience: the opportunity to be someone else for a change. It doesn't mean you have to be equally good at everything as everyone else, luck, unfortunately, plays a factor, just as it has in this case (and it does in real life, for instance). You're not crippled, just "average", so you can get by just fine (heck, those stats are probably higher than our own would be, and WE get by in life just fine, I assume - at least, I do).

This thread seems more to me like you're whining: "I was tired of point-buy, wanted to roll for a change and everyone rolled better than me, so I want a mulligan!".

-sigh-

D&D is not, for me, 'an experience'. It is a game, meant to be fun so I can relax and be social in my free time. As I said before, if I end up being bored and if I end up not having any fun what's the point of playing?

I am not whining, I am asking for advice to play with these stats. I'm bloody well willing to give this a fair shot, which is why I don't want any suicide characters. If the only thing you have to share is your opinion, you can keep it to yourself. Now, can we quit having this argument?

[caden_varn]

The second, something he explicitly stated.

In this case you can't rely on anything more than the +1 per 4 levels to abilities. If my memory serves, if you put all your boosts to you primary stat you'd be able to qualify for all spell levels up to 8th by the time you get to the appropriate level, but not 9th, if you went full caster. But a relatively low primary stat will give easier saving throw DCs.

Given PH only (and that's all I know well enough to comment with any degree of usefulness), I'd be inclined to a druid summoner (maybe human to get augment summoning at first level), if you want to be personally effective in combat, or a bard if you are happy to be increasing the whole groups effectiveness more moderately.

Both get reasonable skills (bards get more of course), and bards in particular make good face characters. Neither are terribly dependent on the stats other than for skills, depending on your spell choice. Especially once Wild Shape comes online (spider-climbing long-striding crocodiles are fairly amusing in my experience).

[LordBlades]

OP: I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware that every allied human being in the world has comparable strengths, weaknesses and are equally good at everything. RPG is more than just a game, it's an experience: the opportunity to be someone else for a change. It doesn't mean you have to be equally good at everything as everyone else, luck, unfortunately, plays a factor, just as it has in this case (and it does in real life, for instance). You're not crippled, just "average", so you can get by just fine (heck, those stats are probably higher than our own would be, and WE get by in life just fine, I assume - at least, I do).


This is accurate when describing most fantasy and non-fantasy stories. Heroes aren't created equal, and some are just better than their companions. However, this doesn't always translate well into D&D. Not everyone can have fun being Robin when the guy across the table gets to be Batman.

[Musco]

Thought Robin did get to be Nightwing later.

I understand the feeling, I just do not agree with it, as I said, I'd rather play a fun character, stats be damned.

To the OP: I suggested the martyr Paladin because the suicide idea came up and you didn't actually dismissed it, just said it probably wouldn't fly with the DM, thus implying you would actually consider it or had considered it (and gave you the cons I thought it had, because no one likes a whiner at the table, it gets annoying really fast).

With that array of abilities, you can probably play any specialized caster with a racial bonus to get to 16, and be fine. 3.5 doesn't put a lot of strain on ability scores anyway, and with higher levels, they get less and less important, provided you can hit the minimum for requirements, due to stat-boosting items, spells and such. I'd consider playing a wizard, which would double as skill monkey with Scribe Scroll and a little bit of help from the other guys to cover expenses on said scrolls and help in finding the spells necessary, you'd be more than fine with any INT-boosting race, and if you could play a DEX+INT-boostin race, even at the expense of Str and Con or Cha, even better.

Basically, I'm saying your scores are not actually to the level of "unplayable". It can be done, even if it has its limitations (a good Paladin, for instance, would need better scores).

[Zedicius]

Stat boosting items will be rare, and leveling will most likely be slow. And I have to disagree on stats not being important at higher levels. A +2 can make the difference in many cases and the impact it has on known spells for most casters is pretty big.

Another thought that came to mind is Conjurer -> Malconvoker

Though INT boosting races are pretty rare.

[Jornophelanthas]

I second the Warlock suggestion.
Put the 14 on Dexterity, and choose invocations that do not allow saves.
Also, make sure to keep Use Magic Device maxed.

[LordBlades]

Though INT boosting races are pretty rare.

Dragonborn Gray Elf is my favorite (-2 str +2 int)

[Fineous Orlon]

To the OP:
You have a variety of single-ability score dependent classes to choose from, druid is just the easiest. I like the bard idea [doesn't "NEED" more than a 16 in charisma by high level to access all of the class abilities] a few posts up as well. Any 'buffing' spellcaster should work OK, really, with battlefield control or summoners also working well, as these types depend on good save DCs less than some other types of casters. I have also seen warlocks do OK without great scores.

In general, though, allowing players to have wildly differing die rolls for character abilities is the other side of the same coin of the tier-system-for-classes problem: having wildly different power levels or capability levels WITHIN a party is a game-mechanics source of frustration.

Your DM should realize this, and if he or she does not, you might take it as a warning sign of the DM's playstyle, or of things he or she does not know.

OTTO THE BUGBEAR [old WotC fora] first solved the dice-rolling problem in public that I read [if you don't use point-buy]. The group generates a set together by each person generating 1 score by the 4d6 method, with enough people rolling or repeats [if fewer than 6 players] to generate 6 scores to assign as each may desire to ability scores. The DM then has veto power over the set used by the table, best used if the scores are thoroughly under- or over-whelming.

This way, each person contributes [some of their die-rolling luck] to the generation, and no one person is penalized in a cooperative game FOR THE DURATION OF THE GAME [compared to the others playing] just because that character's first 6 rolls sucked. After all, many people design and play so that their character does pretty well unless the character has a really unlucky streak of die rolls, which can lead to an epic, memorable encounter fail, which can be fun. Epic fail, even seriously comparative failure, before the encounters even begin? Not so much fun.

[Ceaon]

We once played like this.
Get the NPC Elite array, order from highest to lowest (15 14 13 12 10 8).
Roll 4d6 drop lowest. Replace the 15 with the result only if it is higher. Repeat this for the 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8.

[ericgrau]

Pick any race with a penalty to at least one ability score. Put your 14 in that stat, and the 11s in whatever stats they get a bonus to. Your highest ability score is now 13 and you're automatically allowed to reroll them per PHB page 8.

I think that's before racial modifiers.

A 14 isn't the end of the world. The OP's high stat is a point and a half below average. The average point buy is about 28. The NPC elite array is in fact designed to be pretty close to average 4d6 rolls. It may seem worse because he has a couple allies who are a point above average. At a -1 to rolls based on his primary stat and -2 on secondary the character is playable at least. Different levels of optimization may widen the gap, but then that's an optimization problem.

I'd play anything, but it may be an ok time to play a less ability score dependent class. Like a sorcerer who selects spells that don't have saves or that have a good effect even on a passed save.

[Fineous Orlon]

The first part of my post above could be summarized by:

Pick a Tier 1 or 2 that does not depend on saving throw DCs, or a Bard.

Be determined to have fun.

Have fun.

[Musco]

A +2 is a significant difference, but not huge (+18 and +20 are actually pretty close). However, my suggestion involves a 16, which is actually -1 in comparison with an 18, the default non-cheese score (Core gave no INT-boosting races at first, so the Wizard had 18 intelligence at most, with a bonus to Dexterity). Known spells are not an issue (not tied with the ability), and requirements will be met way early (you need 19 INT at 17th level, and you'll get it on 12th). Also, lots of spells not requiring attack rolls, and tied basically to class level, including the utility spells. It basically costs you a bonus spell or two at higher levels (7th is where it'll hurt the most, though it is rectified instantly at 8th), but scrolls should compensate for this as well.

If the group's need is a skill monkey, scroll-wizard is pretty spot on, I'd say. Also, if Magic will come at a premium, there's nothing better than making your own, so craft feats in general might be great (it seems a low-powered campaign, so metamagic feats might not be that much needed), and potions and scrolls go a long way toward skills and having outs to pretty much any situation.

[Hbgplayer]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but doesn't the PHB allow a complete reroll if none of your ability scores before racial modifiers are above 14?

[Chronos]

I'm only used to point-buy, so for a change my group managed to find a DM that allowed us to roll for stat. I know that on average, stats should be a bit higher with 4d6, remove lowest... Everyone always thinks that rolled stats are higher, and I'm not sure why. Straight 3d6 rolls is roughly equivalent to 15 point buy or the nonelite array, and 4d6 drop lowest is roughly equivalent to 25 point buy or the elite array. Yeah, you can get lucky with rolls, and everyone always seems to assume they will, but you can also get unlucky, or just get something typical.

[Roguenewb]

You could go for the funny, and run with Commoner. You're far more common the other players right? So, go with it!

Human Commoner 1
Able Learner
Magical Training
Flaw For Precocious Apprentice: Melf's Acid Arrow (or try to find an Acid/Fire Spell)
Flaw for Acidic Splatter (Reserve)
Survivor 2
Survivor 3
I dunno, WF (Ranged Touch?) (If you do find the mythical Acid/Fire spell, you can take the Fiery Burst Reserve Feat, so you can have 2 attack modes, alternating between 2d6 mini-fireball and 2d6 acid touch damage. Sounds like fun huh!)
Survivor 4
Survivor 5
Survivor 6
Human Paragon 1
Human Paragon 2
Chameleon 1-10
Human Paragon 3?


You will be fairly unkillable at low levels, and for a while you'll have a great attack mode, 2d6 acid damage as a ranged touch with range of 10 feet. If there is an Acid/Fire spell, you can be pretty hilarious at level 3. If, somewhere, and god do I hope there is, an all 5 elemental descriptor spell, You could pick up the Cold reserve that shoots the little cone! You'd be the best fake mage ever! This build makes me giggle, please play it!

[Roguenewb]

You could go for the funny, and run with Commoner. You're far more common the other players right? So, go with it!

Human Commoner 1
Able Learner
Magical Training
Flaw For Precocious Apprentice: Melf's Acid Arrow (or try to find an Acid/Fire Spell)
Flaw for Acidic Splatter (Reserve)
Survivor 2
Survivor 3
I dunno, WF (Ranged Touch?) (If you do find the mythical Acid/Fire spell, you can take the Fiery Burst Reserve Feat, so you can have 2 attack modes, alternating between 2d6 mini-fireball and 2d6 acid touch damage. Sounds like fun huh!)
Survivor 4
Survivor 5
Survivor 6
Human Paragon 1
Human Paragon 2
Chameleon 1-10
Human Paragon 3?


You will be fairly unkillable at low levels, and for a while you'll have a great attack mode, 2d6 acid damage as a ranged touch with range of 10 feet. If there is an Acid/Fire spell, you can be pretty hilarious at level 3. If, somewhere, and god do I hope there is, an all 5 elemental descriptor spell, You could pick up the Cold reserve that shoots the little cone! You'd be the best fake mage ever! This build makes me giggle, please play it!

[Dude_Here]

When you said you rolled horrible stats I was thinking 2 or 3 rolls in the 5-7 range-). If wanna see some low stats try playing in our campaign; we roll
3d6 seven times and discard the lowest roll. It really makes you appreciate when you roll a high stat score.

[Tulya]

If the party has pretty much thrown away the concept of a low-power, low-magic campaign, Human Artificer? You can manage as a skill monkey with utility wands filling in the gaps. You'll be able to reach max infusions, and the extant to which you break WBL guidelines is up to you.

[Vladislav]

You could go for the funny, and run with Commoner. You're far more common the other players right? So, go with it!

Human Commoner 1
Able Learner
Magical Training
Flaw For Precocious Apprentice: Melf's Acid Arrow (or try to find an Acid/Fire Spell)
Flaw for Acidic Splatter (Reserve)
Survivor 2
Survivor 3It's a nice build, and one I may actually use for kicks in another game, but alas, Precocious Apprentice requires a spellcasting attribute of 15. The OP doesn't even have a single 15 anywhere :smalleek: Maybe Gray Elf commoner for +2 Int, I dunno. But then no Able Learner :smallfrown:

[nedz]

I'd consider using that 14 on a SAD caster. Ideally you would want to bump that to 16 with racial modifiers, but a 14 will actually suffice. Now you will have to pump all of your level bonuses into it, but you would be doing that anyway. You will have less than optimal DCs, but this problem can be avoided without too much trouble simply by not using spells with a save.

You will ultimately require a stat boost item, but you did mention something about knowing a friendly artificer ?

[Verte]

I wouldn't call those horrible - I mean, they're not great, but I'd find them playable.


Maybe I'm mistaken, but doesn't the PHB allow a complete reroll if none of your ability scores before racial modifiers are above 14?

It says on page 8 that they may be rerolled if the highest score is 13 or lower, or if the total combine modifier is 0 or less.

You could make a water halfling warlock and get +2 to dex and con and -2 to str (which I don't think you'd really need) and take invocations that don't require saves. You could make a grey elf wizard - sure, higher con would be nice, but you can still pick up spells to avoid getting hit and can focus on ones that don't require high save DCs. Or you could go with a druid and make good use of your animal companion until you hit level 5 and can wildshape - at which point lower stats won't seem so bad. I mean, I don't optimize very much, but I can still see ways those scores could work out all right.


Level 1. Aka rookie at casting spells. 'Accidently' touch yourself for such spells like shocking grasp. Or heck, in practicing your conjuration ability, you summon monster and 'command it' to kill you.

Definitely don't do this, though, especially not if you want to play with these people again.

[Akal Saris]

I think a lot of the suggestions missed that he can't even shift points around, so he'd be stuck with an 11 Wis on a druid, and it doesn't seem like the DM is the easy-going kind that will allow lesser aasimar or another Wis-boosting race.

Personally, I think the suggestions for warlock, dragonfire adept, and artificer all make good sense.

Swordsage might also work if you want a high-skills class - you'd have to work at getting a high Dex (Goblin, Water Halfling, or Whisper Gnome would all be decent), and then use weapon finesse and perhaps shadow blade, relying on maneuvers rather than stats for damage.

[nedz]

I think a lot of the suggestions missed that he can't even shift points around, so he'd be stuck with an 11 Wis on a druid, and it doesn't seem like the DM is the easy-going kind that will allow lesser aasimar or another Wis-boosting race.

Personally, I think the suggestions for warlock, dragonfire adept, and artificer all make good sense.

Swordsage might also work if you want a high-skills class - you'd have to work at getting a high Dex (Goblin, Water Halfling, or Whisper Gnome would all be decent), and then use weapon finesse and perhaps shadow blade, relying on maneuvers rather than stats for damage.

What ! Are these in-order ? I assumed the OP meant he couldn't rob peter to pay paul.

[Sutremaine]

No, I'm pretty sure that the OP meant not being able to take those stats and turn them into point-buy in order to shift them round. They would probably have mentioned it by now, given all the suggestions to play a caster type.

[HalfGrammarGeek]

I am not whining, I am asking for advice to play with these stats. I'm bloody well willing to give this a fair shot, which is why I don't want any suicide characters. If the only thing you have to share is your opinion, you can keep it to yourself. Now, can we quit having this argument?
I think you've already given it a fair shot. You wanted to feel what it's like to roll stats, and now you know.

You say the DM is old school-ish, so I say do what everyone in my group did back in the TSR days: kamikaze! Don't be obvious about it, of course, but there are so many believable character concepts that can't help but die in prompt yet humorous ways. The unarmored ghost-dancing warrior; the brave mage; the reckless dilettante; I could go on and on. Just put your lowest stats in Wis and Con and have a reason to not wear armor, even if you're proficient.

If you manage to help or save fellow PCs in the process of kamikazying -- "You guys sneak around the other side, I'll distract them!" -- the group will in all likelihood congratulate you on your rping. They're happy, you get to reroll; it's a win-win!

[Tar Palantir]

I think you've already given it a fair shot. You wanted to feel what it's like to roll stats, and now you know.

You say the DM is old school-ish, so I say do what everyone in my group did back in the TSR days: kamikaze! Don't be obvious about it, of course, but there are so many believable character concepts that can't help but die in prompt yet humorous ways. The unarmored ghost-dancing warrior; the brave mage; the reckless dilettante; I could go on and on. Just put your lowest stats in Wis and Con and have a reason to not wear armor, even if you're proficient.

If you manage to help or save fellow PCs in the process of kamikazying -- "You guys sneak around the other side, I'll distract them!" -- the group will in all likelihood congratulate you on your rping. They're happy, you get to reroll; it's a win-win!

If you really want to kamikaze, just take up trap duty. It'll kill you eventually, especially if you aren't terribly skilled at it (hint hint).

[Akal Saris]

What ! Are these in-order ? I assumed the OP meant he couldn't rob peter to pay paul.

Ah, I see - that makes sense.

[Marlowe]

I think you've already given it a fair shot. You wanted to feel what it's like to roll stats, and now you know.

You say the DM is old school-ish, so I say do what everyone in my group did back in the TSR days: kamikaze! Don't be obvious about it, of course, but there are so many believable character concepts that can't help but die in prompt yet humorous ways. The unarmored ghost-dancing warrior; the brave mage; the reckless dilettante; I could go on and on. Just put your lowest stats in Wis and Con and have a reason to not wear armor, even if you're proficient.

If you manage to help or save fellow PCs in the process of kamikazying -- "You guys sneak around the other side, I'll distract them!" -- the group will in all likelihood congratulate you on your rping. They're happy, you get to reroll; it's a win-win!

This is horrible advice. You're not going to get any respect like this. Nobody wants to be in the trenches next to somebody who's desperate to get killed. It breaks immersion for everyone and makes them wonder why they're playing this game in general or with you in particular.

The Water Halfling suggestion plus a dex-based class is an excellent one. I'll keep repeating Warlock even though we're not sure it's allowed yet.

[Sutremaine]

Nobody wants to be in the trenches next to somebody who's desperate to get killed.
The OP doesn't have to play it to that extreme. Build a competent character, take risks that you wouldn't normally but are not totally insane. If the character dies, reroll time. If the character can stay lucky and pull off some crazy stuff, cool. Just don't take too many risks when your party's somewhere that your new PC can't be expected to appear...

[Ozreth]

Just play the game and have fun with it. Don't feel like you need to compete power wise with the other players, you are all on a team.

You aren't "crippled" because the game dosen't need to be all about stats and numbers. Just be witty and creative in play :)

[Philistine]

Funny, I have 14/12/12/12/11/11 as a 24 point buy: 6+4+4+4+3+3. That'd be a point below the Standard Point Buy, not a point above it. Point of interest, the Archivist's 17 and one of his 16's are equivalent to 23PB before adding his other four stats.

Get used to the idea of being the party's mascot and/or Damsel In Distress.

[Fineous Orlon]

Just play the game and have fun with it. Don't feel like you need to compete power wise with the other players, you are all on a team.

You aren't "crippled" because the game dosen't need to be all about stats and numbers. Just be witty and creative in play :)

How about a witty, creative, half-orc samurai? There is a lot of role-playing, team-building potential there! Fertile ground!

**************************************************

The game is actually less about numbers when everyone starts out on more or less equal footing. This could be in a game in which the DM has determined the play experience is irrespective of ability scores, in which creativity and and wit are ALL that matter.

The default, however, in 3.5 D and D, is that ability scores DO matter. Better scores equals more success in the 'rolling' part of the game, no matter how big or small that part of the game is.

For that reason, equality in some form [say, point buy, or a group-wide distribution] is desired by many, in terms of initial ability scores.

But to your point, if wit and creativity are what matter, then the numbers should be minimized so that what matters can shine through! What better way to minimize the effects of ability scores than to make them all equal through point-buy or a group-wide distribution?

So, insisting numbers don't matter just highlights that they DO matter, especially in a system like 3.5 D and D, that has heavy mechanical, numerical support for so many of the actions characters might undertake

************************************************** *

The original poster was ASKING for suggestions on characters to play in which the RELATIVELY poor stats he had rolled would not make much of a difference in his play experience [compared with his comrades], with which he could still have fun.

The original poster had already decided to play along long before your 'just play the game, numbers don't matter!' post appeared.

************************************************** *

[Dimers]

The second, something he explicitly stated.

Another reason to go Warlock. You can convert treasure into magic items of your choosing more easily than other party members, past a certain point. You might even be able to work out deals to custom-craft items for them for a reasonable profit, improving you in WBL by comparison.

[Ozreth]

Of course they matter as far as how good you roll, that has been the case since AD&D. But really, a few points won't make a world of difference in a campaign. Other players rolls may outshine his but he will still be helpful and productive.

I guess I'm just cut from a different stone is all :/

[killem2]

You should ask the type of setting this will be and see if being a captain, ship navigator, aviator or similar fashion would be useful :D

[Marlowe]

I'm quite surprised the number of people that think these stats are an excuse for a redo, for suicide, or accepting sideshow status. These are quite decent stats. They're the same as elite array in terms of total bonus. I've got a couple of characters in PbP games with very similar arrays (both warlocks. Strength penalty. High Dex).

It is annoying to have everybody else roll higher. And it sounds as if your DM is being a little patronizing about things ("...so you can still make a meaningful contribution to the party"? What.), but the only way these stats are going to be actually bad is if you insist on a class that needs X bonus in Y stat to be effective right from the get-go. Even playing as a full caster you're not even going to see a handicap from having "only" a 14 until you get to 3rd level spells.

Anyway, a couple of very bland core-only suggestions:

Dwarf Cleric, Urist McNormal.
str 12
dex 11
con 14
int 11
wis 14
chr 10
or swap the int and chr around to get more skill points at cost of being a little pants at turning. Or do something similar with a druid.

Goblin Rogue/Wizard
str 9
dex 14
con 12
int 14
wis 12
chr 9
start as rogue for skills and full hp. Multiclass to wizard. Or even swap the con and the int. 12 int is quite enough to manage 4 levels of wizard.

Also, I can't help but feel that Archivist player might be being led by the nose. Archivists need DM co-operation to get a chance to learn spells outside the basic Cleric list and if they don't get it they are essentially a Cloistered Cleric without domains and a split-stat casting issue.

[Fineous Orlon]

Of course they matter as far as how good you roll, that has been the case since AD&D. But really, a few points won't make a world of difference in a campaign. Other players rolls may outshine his but he will still be helpful and productive.

I guess I'm just cut from a different stone is all :/

You're not that different. Many, including me, have talked their way through an encounter or series of encounters, or solved a riddle or problem that their character was not qualified to solve with out-of-character knowledge. Being engaged in a campaign, and trying to be constructive or productive, is what MOST people do in this cooperative game of ours.

The point is, in 3.5, a few points DO make a world of difference in a campaign.

A primary caster whose best score is a 14 will need to choose spells that do not allow save DCs because his DCs will be not be as challenging.

A primary caster who starts with a 14 will not get a bonus 3rd level spell when he gets his 3rd level spells [casting stat will be 15 at 5th level, probably]. EVERY DAY of adventuring, he will get 1 less use of his most powerful ability, because of 1 bad roll when his character started. He will be behind from then on, not just in save DCs, but also in numbers of spells available. The problem will repeat with 4th level spells, and even when he gets 5th level spells, he would still be behind a character that started with an 18 in the primary casting stat.

At 17th level, unless the character gets magic item or wish help, it will not be able to cast the 9th level spells it has just earned, as the casting stat will be 18 until 20th level, when a 19 is available through the level up process.

That's just in his primary attribute.

Additionally, any item that helps him will help someone with better stats more.

It's even worse as a fighter, or a MAD [multiple ability score dependent] character.

************************************************** **

The second reason you are not so different is that the original poster had decided to play the stats he had [like you were suggesting]. He wanted help choosing a character path in which the difference in numbers between his character and the rest of the party would not be terribly troubling, in which his character could still be effective and constructive [like you were suggesting].

In fact, a lot of responders in this thread were trying to help the OP do exactly what you were lamenting he OUGHT to do: play the character as rolled in a way that would help the team within those confines.

[Krazzman]

Ok, afaik there a two elf subraces that your DM might allow:
Sun Elves and Star Elves. The first give -2 Con +2 Int the second gives -2 Con +2 Cha.
They are both in the faerunian campaign set/players guide/races of faerun...
so maybe thats a fit.
Else you could be a changeling (eberron campaign setting) to auto qualify for warshaper, afaik the warshaper gets some stat boosts and other nifty bonuses like partial crit immunity.

Hope this helps you further.

[Zedicius]

Hey folks. I want to thank you guys again for all the suggestions and I figured I owed you guys an update on what's actually going to happen for the game. So, those who are interested here's a small summary of events.

As I mentioned before, we got together last week to discuss what we were going to play, frequency of our game sessions, and so on. The DM explained he was going to write his own campaign, which would be low-magic. Meaning, you wouldn't be able to find something like a magic-shop freely available, so magic items would have to be earned by questing, exploring dungeons, etc. Other then that, everything was allowed, except things that are 'too extreme'. He listed paladins as an example because of their lawful good alignment. That should probably have been a hint. Someone asked if they could play a Wild Elf, which was fine. Someone else asked if he could play an archivist, which was also fine and a third person asked if it was OK if we could use prestige classes later in the game which was also fine. Finally, the big question was thrown on the table, 'can we use the other d&d supplements as well?' And although he had gotten more and more reluctant to answer with every question, he said 'yes, if it fits with the setting.' After that we rolled for stats, shared contact information, drank our drinks and went home.

A few days later, the DM send us his own written campaign which was a word document, five pages long. It contained a short description of a city and it's general surroundings and a description for each core class that stated the role of the class in or around the city. Not races, but classes, which I always thought were just names for game-mechanic terms rather then for actual RP use. Whatever. The setting itself is a sort of 'the world is going to hell and everyone blames the arcane spell-casters', kind of thing. Now this could be interesting as a story hook, though to me and my friend (the archivist) this seemed more like an excuse to limit spell-casting to the players. Again, whatever. Playing a wizard in this kind of setting could actually be interesting.

Still willing to give it a try, I send three characters to the DM for evaluation:

The one I was least interested in playing myself was a Grey elf conjurer, using some variant rules from unearthed arcana. It got shot down by the DM because 'it didn't look so interesting' to him either. Don't know if he didn't like the background story, or because the character had only 4 HP, but I was somewhat glad it got rejected.

The second was a Gnome Dragonfire Adept, although to fit in with his game, I suggested to classify him as a 'sorcerer' and make him a gnome who had the clever idea to mask his magical talents as circus tricks. I thought that would fit in quite well for a fire-breather and then nothing would have to be changed rule-wise. He thought the concept was interesting, but then told me it would also fit a sorcerer or a bard who could use a perform skill check, to do the breath attack. In my opinion, skill points for a sorcerer are better spend somewhere else, especially with my low stats and I simply had no interest in playing a bard. Besides, allowing characters to make attacks with a perform check is a pretty significant rule change, I think. Either way, it would've ruined the character for me because a lot of the appeal in the class lies in the breath effects and some of the invocations.

The third was an evil halfling druid, focused on summons and trained animals. I didn't take greenbound summoning, because I wanted to see if I'd actually need it in his setting though I did go for augmented summong. My race pick was Strongheart halfling for the extra feat, to compensate for Spellfocus (conjuration) which is useless for a druid but a requirement for augmented summoning. Again, he liked the idea, but also wanted an intelligent reason why the halfling was evil. Fair enough, I understand that the DM doesn't want a player who happily kills everyone they meet. One thing that did annoy him... was the extra feat strongheart halflings get.

After I tried to argue with him that the dragonfire adept was an official class, and fine the way it was if you don't abuse the meta breath feats and that the halfling could have been raised with humans, to explain the difference I got a mail that basically said this: 'What I'm actually trying to say is that I only want you to use the player's handbook because I don't want any of the other stuff in my campaign and I expect all other players to adhere too this rule. Plus, to encourage you to stop using all the other stuff, I'm allowing you to cheat and you can now use 28 point-buy.'

Bam. The only thing I understand from that email, is that he's trying to frustrate me, and possibly the other players as well in to sticking with the player's handbook. I guess he's regretting all the stuff he allowed during our first meeting. Since that didn't work, he's trying to bribe me instead. I'm not trying to picture him as a bad guy here, though if he wants to come back from a previous decision he should have just made that clear and not attempt to influence my choices.

I have not yet replied to that mail, though I have contacted one of the other players whom I know personally, the archivist who hasn't send in a character yet. Apparently He's going to try a gray elf wizard with substitution levels though I don't think the DM will allow it. Apparently, the one who wanted to play the wild elf, is now playing a half-orc fighter.

I'm still uncertain if I should continue or just drop out of the game entirely at this point... though if I read his campaign setting thoughts of an evil enchanter or illusionist are entering my mind. The city I mentioned has banned most magics, so I figure there won't many dispells or detect magic spells to worry about.

[Jornophelanthas]

I'm basing this off the last update about the DM's reactions.

My impression of your DM's agenda is the following:
1. He is aware that full casters are overpowered.
2. He is trying to fix it by BOTH limiting all player shenanigans to the Player's Handbook as much as possible (which is counterproductive),
3. AND by putting heavy world-specific penalties on playing full casters (i.e. everybody hates/fears casters).
4. The DM disallows Evil alignment on sight (which is a matter of personal taste).

What this DM WANTS all of you to do is to play a non-spellcasting class.
He will ALLOW players to play casters, but is very likely to make life extremely difficult for them. (For example, having the authorities hunt down sorcerers, stealing wizards' spellbooks, having clerics' displeased gods stop granting spells).

However, your original problem is solved: you got to improve your stat generation through point buy.

Here's my advice:
- Do NOT play a wizard, sorcerer, cleric or druid. The DM will make sure this is not fun.
- Do NOT play an evil character, because the DM's prejudice against this alignment might cause every NPC to treat such a character as a psychopathic mass murderer.
- Be very careful about partial casters like the bard, because they might share the same hate full casters get. Rangers are probably safe.
- Do NOT assume that there will be no Detect Magic or Dispel Magic. The entire world is paranoid about magic, so any important NPC - and especially the city guard - will be well-equipped with very potent anti-caster magics. (Where they got those is unimportant.)
- Do NOT play a class that is heavily dependent on magical gear, unless someone in the party is planning to go for Item Creation feats.
- Assume that the players' AC will never be boosted by magical items. Bear in mind that base attack bonus comes with levels and AC doesn't. This means that attacks will hardly ever miss at higher levels. Therefore, do NOT play a melee fighter, twf ranger or (especially) barbarian.
- What is left are non-spellcasting PHB classes that do not rely on AC.
- Consider not playing in the game if you will not enjoy the options that are left.

[Randomguy]

Remember that alignment is maleable. If you want to play a nefarious, but not murderous character, his alignment could be evil or neutral. Just write down neutral and avoid the "stupid evil" type of play and you should be fine. I also suggest playing a bard instead of an illusionist/enchanter: You'll get a lot of the same spells, and you'll be able to avoid the DM's wrath, and you'll be able to pretend you aren't a caster more easily when questioned by the town guard.

The classes left to you appear to be fighter, ranger, barbarian, monk, rogue and bard. You'll probably want to avoid barbarian, since there's already one of those. You should also avoid focusing too much on archery, since that tends to be very reliant of equipment. (But carry a bow just in case) I think bard might actually be one of your better options here. You could also consider Ranger, for skill points, some actual healing, and full BAB. I think I'd go with two weapon fighting with a 2h weapon and unarmed strikes, or possibly mounted archery, which tends to be stronger than normal archery.

[HalfGrammarGeek]

He listed paladins as an example because of their lawful good alignment. That should probably have been a hint.
Seriously. He's never considered simply ignoring the LG restriction and the Code?

Anyway, my advice: Be a sport for about a month, and then run when the game inevitably gets hairy. (Just so your mates don't think "He's just quitting because he rolled low.") Tell the other players why you're leaving, and that they're free to get in touch if they start a new campaign with a new DM.

In the mean time, don't sweat the small stuff. And remember, it's all small stuff. :)

[Musco]

Well, I'm a DM and I DM'ed for a lot of people, so let me chime in:

1 - Yes, he does not want you guys to be evil - this is probably becuase he's too used to (or scared of) psychotic characters wantomly slaughtering everyone, AND/OR because he just wants to write an epic tale and wants you guys to be the heroes, not "unlikely heroes" or "unliked heroes";
2 - Yes, he regrets deeply what he said, because he didn't want to sound like railroading you guys (which he is), so instead, he tried to bribe you (and rest asured, he most likely bribed the other guys as well);
3 - Spellcasters scare him, either because he knows they are too abusable or because he plain does not like to keep track of the bunch of effects they get to perform, so he does not want his perfetcly built dungeon puzzle to be fizzled by "oh, look, we can just cast 'knock' on that door" and "ORLY? the spell that opens doors does not open doors? f-ing retarded, I'm leaving!";
4 - With this in mind, I say think carefully rather you want to play in this or not, because it IS going to get awry, there will be A LOT of railroading and rule-of-plot and "I'm the DM and I say the city guards torched your spellbook, period."

If you DO decide you want to play, I'd say to impose Book of Exalted Deeds (c'mon it's RIGHT THERE with what he wants you to do) and play with Vow of Poverty, so you can escape his magic-less clutches and have a fighting chance.

[Dairuga]

Thank you kindly for the update, and it would be extremely nice if you could keep updating as you get messages / Mails / get down to actually play with the other party members. THis is looking to be one of those tales that will either be legendary, or hilarious as the Dm shows his true colours and the Allegedly-interesting world turns out to be crapsaccharine-filled, with the star-spangled, glitter-filled eyes of the DM hailing it as the greatest things ever.

That being said, well; Yes. A few points to be made.

Firstly. That with the Dragonfire Adept being a bard; it seems your DM wants to mundane everything that looks magical. And by "Looks", I mean that he wants to have everyone deal as little as possible in magic. While it is interesting to pull off, the way he phrased it sounds truly odd. Doing the Firebreathing with a perform check is possibly him pretending that you swallow flammable liquids, and breathe them out in a gout of fire, ignited by a spark or somesuch. Voila, magical fire made mundane.

Also forces the DFA to roll when he uses his breath, which basically cuts off a lot of the DFA's power. The appeal is that you do not -have- to roll for the breath, the enemy has to save. Having a failed roll ruin the breath would be heavily detrimental.

Secondly.

All wizards will, unless given a major Con score, have "Only 4 HP" at best (If you put those low points into Con), and if you put your good points, it will have 5 HP. This is actually a fun point, if the DM thinks everything is going to go great, and you can force him to act protectively around you if he wishes the plot to proceed. By no means play suicidal, that would be rather silly. But you might find yourself in situations were your teammates are hurt more than you, and you are mysteriously shielded from attacks.

I have played in a group where the DM was forcing plot, so no one got to die. He was scared of players dying, and thus avoided the massive hits to the spellcaster at early levels, because "The spellcaster did not do much damage / Not much threat". It was... Interesting. And if the DM does wish to play out an epic tale, just act smart, and see how the blows automatically happen to glance you / become nonfatal. And if they are fatal.. well, you did everything you could. No blame on you.

Now, that having been said, I do see where your DM is coming from. he is scared, most likely, from having things go out of hand. As my first attempt at DM'ing a while back, I was lenient at first, letting my player go buck-wild with homebrewed things, and then later found out how silly it was. Granted, he felt cheated, and he felt angry wtih me, much like you are right now, with your DM. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case, even if he seems to be very heavy-handed with his own views. He does not seem to want to fit things into his world, but rather cuts down what does not fit in his eyes. It is sad, but that is how many people operate.

So what you -can- do, is to ask him what he wants. Tell him that you do not want to play a Bard ( I got the assumption you do not want this), and that you would want to play -some- sort of caster. Ask him what he would suggest you playing, and have him help you out. There is nothing better for fitting into a DM's story than having them find a place for you, and if you like it; accept.

And according to the bribe... well, Put it this way. Perhaps he realized it would be unfair to have you have mediocre, crappy stats (Well, not allegedly crappy, but by comparison) when others get to run around like raving, raging fighters and have all the fun, while you get to halfways fail at everything relating to non-spell combat. No matter what people say, having 2/4 extra points put into CON or DEX at low levels is a massive boon, giving you more Armor or HP.

but, bribery or not, you should call up the other players and get to know if he have done other such things to them. If he lets one player fix his stats, and let, say... The warrior start with a +1 Frost Greatsword, then things are starting to look very skewed. Perhaps you better just decline the bribe, take the moral highground, and say that he forced you to play with cruddy stats, so now you are damned well going to do it, because you HATE the notion of cheating?

After all, if he tells you to do that, he forces you to -cheat- in a game, and no one likes being "That one cheater". Tell him to legitimately get to reroll, or no dice. After all, once the DM has agreed to let you cheat, then you will forever be the one that played by cheating, instead of playing "Good" like everyone else did.

But then again, if your DM actually -does- bring that point up, he will be a downright Asshat DM, and you should truly not be playing with him

Also, just out of curiosity, by "Not being allowed to shift your points around", what do you mean?

[Jornophelanthas]

I second the suggestion for updates on the situation. I for one am quite interested to see how this continues.


Also, just out of curiosity, by "Not being allowed to shift your points around", what do you mean?
I take it to mean that the DM does not allow the player to deduct points from one ability score and add them to another (e.g. turn two 11s into a 10 and a 12), while creating the character.

[Zedicius]

Seriously. He's never considered simply ignoring the LG restriction and the Code?

No clue. On one hand I get the feeling he does not like people using the rules to their advantage, because that feels too much like min-maxing too him. On the other hand it would seem he's treating the PHB like a holy bible. Not that it matters much, because it appears he made paladins non-existent. According too the lore, paladin orders were disbanded and the class doesn't even have its own 'entry' in his campaign. Just like playing a stigmatized wizard, playing a righteous paladin who is attempting to weed out the corruption in the city actually seems interesting to play. Playing with neutral or even evil characters can be justified in that they are necessary to defeat a bigger evil, in this case the autocracy that currently rules the city. Other characters are allowed to do things he can't. In my oppinion, good and evil are two sides of the same coin who use different methods, but disturbingly similar tactics. Exalted deeds has a few spells that can change an evil creature's alligment too good against their will, for example.


1 - Yes, he does not want you guys to be evil - this is probably becuase he's too used to (or scared of) psychotic characters wantomly slaughtering everyone, AND/OR because he just wants to write an epic tale and wants you guys to be the heroes, not "unlikely heroes" or "unliked heroes";

Like I said, I understand why he doesn't want certain evil personalities in his game. I have no intention of playing a psychotic mass murderer either because it's a lot more fun to play a chessmaster or a magnificent bastard instead. He simply asked for a reason and a motivation for the character to be evil... and I have plenty of those. The question is, if I play a brilliantly evil guy, who plots and schemes, will the DM try to activly prevent those scemes, will he support them... or will he leave it up too the dice?



3 - Spellcasters scare him, either because he knows they are too abusable or because he plain does not like to keep track of the bunch of effects they get to perform, so he does not want his perfetcly built dungeon puzzle to be fizzled by "oh, look, we can just cast 'knock' on that door" and "ORLY? the spell that opens doors does not open doors? f-ing retarded, I'm leaving!";

4 - With this in mind, I say think carefully rather you want to play in this or not, because it IS going to get awry, there will be A LOT of railroading and rule-of-plot and "I'm the DM and I say the city guards torched your spellbook, period."

I don't mind -a little- rail-roading because in my oppinion, the DMs job is to tell a story that entertains and intrigues the players. If a door is not meant to be opened, then no matter what the PCs do, it will not open. While something like knock is more of a tool for the players that might or might not work. The DM has the right to enforce Deus Ex Machina if it keeps the game fun. Of course, I do understand what you mean. A door is only a basic example and things quickly get less fun if it feels like you don't have any impact on the game.


If you DO decide you want to play, I'd say to impose Book of Exalted Deeds (c'mon it's RIGHT THERE with what he wants you to do) and play with Vow of Poverty, so you can escape his magic-less clutches and have a fighting chance.

No other books or supplements are allowed and since magic items are going to be quest rewards, the fighters will most likely still get an advantage even if I do get vow of poverty.





Thank you kindly for the update, and it would be extremely nice if you could keep updating as you get messages / Mails / get down to actually play with the other party members. THis is looking to be one of those tales that will either be legendary, or hilarious as the Dm shows his true colours and the Allegedly-interesting world turns out to be crapsaccharine-filled, with the star-spangled, glitter-filled eyes of the DM hailing it as the greatest things ever.

Although I love reading about games like these, I doubt this going to be one of them. I think it'll be more me and the DM getting at odds over stupid little things, making the whole affair frustrating for everyone. In that case it might be better if I just don't play.




That with the Dragonfire Adept being a bard; it seems your DM wants to mundane everything that looks magical. And by "Looks", I mean that he wants to have everyone deal as little as possible in magic. While it is interesting to pull off, the way he phrased it sounds truly odd. Doing the Firebreathing with a perform check is possibly him pretending that you swallow flammable liquids, and breathe them out in a gout of fire, ignited by a spark or somesuch. Voila, magical fire made mundane.

Also forces the DFA to roll when he uses his breath, which basically cuts off a lot of the DFA's power. The appeal is that you do not -have- to roll for the breath, the enemy has to save. Having a failed roll ruin the breath would be heavily detrimental.

I don't think he wants to make it mundane. Personally I just think he rejected the class because he doesn't know it and doesn't want to make the effort to actually get to know the class, along with feats and other possibilities. In his mind, using the other books and supplements equals min-maxing so it must automatically be bad.


All wizards will, unless given a major Con score, have "Only 4 HP" at best (If you put those low points into Con), and if you put your good points, it will have 5 HP. This is actually a fun point, if the DM thinks everything is going to go great, and you can force him to act protectively around you if he wishes the plot to proceed. By no means play suicidal, that would be rather silly. But you might find yourself in situations were your teammates are hurt more than you, and you are mysteriously shielded from attacks.

I have played in a group where the DM was forcing plot, so no one got to die. He was scared of players dying, and thus avoided the massive hits to the spellcaster at early levels, because "The spellcaster did not do much damage / Not much threat". It was... Interesting. And if the DM does wish to play out an epic tale, just act smart, and see how the blows automatically happen to glance you / become nonfatal. And if they are fatal.. well, you did everything you could. No blame on you.

Now, that having been said, I do see where your DM is coming from. he is scared, most likely, from having things go out of hand. As my first attempt at DM'ing a while back, I was lenient at first, letting my player go buck-wild with homebrewed things, and then later found out how silly it was. Granted, he felt cheated, and he felt angry wtih me, much like you are right now, with your DM. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this case, even if he seems to be very heavy-handed with his own views. He does not seem to want to fit things into his world, but rather cuts down what does not fit in his eyes. It is sad, but that is how many people operate.

Hmm.. Although I don't have much experience with DMing, I can see how 'directing' a battle could be a good idea, though. I mean, if you put a party of 5 level 1 PCs against 5 goblins, and immediatly have two of the goblins flank the wizard you will have a dead wizard very quickly, which is no fun for the player. Your basic D&D game is NOT DM vs Players, something which some people seem to forget at times. This is a rather extreme example, of course. And again, on the flip side, if it feels like the party has the hand of god floating above them, it takes away every sense of excitement. Since we're not yet playing, I can't really say what kind of DM he is.

I don't really feel cheated, I just wish he would've been a bit clearer at the start. Then the whole e-mail argument we had about my character suggestions could've been avoided. I wish I could say that he might simply be inexperienced, but he claims he has DM'd other games and even systems before, one of them a two-year 3.0 game.


So what you -can- do, is to ask him what he wants. Tell him that you do not want to play a Bard ( I got the assumption you do not want this), and that you would want to play -some- sort of caster. Ask him what he would suggest you playing, and have him help you out. There is nothing better for fitting into a DM's story than having them find a place for you, and if you like it; accept.

And according to the bribe... well, Put it this way. Perhaps he realized it would be unfair to have you have mediocre, crappy stats (Well, not allegedly crappy, but by comparison) when others get to run around like raving, raging fighters and have all the fun, while you get to halfways fail at everything relating to non-spell combat. No matter what people say, having 2/4 extra points put into CON or DEX at low levels is a massive boon, giving you more Armor or HP.

but, bribery or not, you should call up the other players and get to know if he have done other such things to them. If he lets one player fix his stats, and let, say... The warrior start with a +1 Frost Greatsword, then things are starting to look very skewed. Perhaps you better just decline the bribe, take the moral highground, and say that he forced you to play with cruddy stats, so now you are damned well going to do it, because you HATE the notion of cheating?

After all, if he tells you to do that, he forces you to -cheat- in a game, and no one likes being "That one cheater". Tell him to legitimately get to reroll, or no dice. After all, once the DM has agreed to let you cheat, then you will forever be the one that played by cheating, instead of playing "Good" like everyone else did.

But then again, if your DM actually -does- bring that point up, he will be a downright Asshat DM, and you should truly not be playing with him

I've already talked about the point-buy thing with the other players. None of them are making a big deal out of it, as even they admitted that my stats really were bad compared too theirs. I still think it isn't fair, though if I'm only allowed to use the PHB, I don't really see any other options either.


Also, just out of curiosity, by "Not being allowed to shift your points around", what do you mean?

I suggested turning the two 11's in to 10's so I could use those two points to get another 14. But again, that was deemed to be min-maxing.

Anyway, I'll be sending my character in this weekend, our first session will be june 4th. We'll see how it goes.

[Musco]

I'm rooting for you, so you can tear down his world piece by piece. Should you decide to leave, though, DO go out with a bang. An epic death, an epic BLUNDER that wrecks the whole campaign, taking other PCs with you (both in and/or out of game), etc. Just keep the fire alive!

[Zedicius]

Hm, I've been looking at the bard more closely and I must admin I'm slowly starting to come back on my decision not to play him.

His selection of skills and skill points are very tempting, light armor is also good and though he lags behind a level or two when it comes too spell-casting, I won't run the risk of the losing a spellbook. Bardic music, even though I have no experience with it, is supposed to be good as well. The question is, are these trade-offs worth it..

[Dairuga]

Hm, I've been looking at the bard more closely and I must admin I'm slowly starting to come back on my decision not to play him.

His selection of skills and skill points are very tempting, light armor is also good and though he lags behind a level or two when it comes too spell-casting, I won't run the risk of the losing a spellbook. Bardic music, even though I have no experience with it, is supposed to be good as well. The question is, are these trade-offs worth it..

Well, If you do wish to play a bard, you basically -need- non-core material to make it good. Of course, you can play it without, but I think it will feel rather lackluster. Song of the Heart, for example, is a very, very, -very- good feat bard-wise, due to it adding another +1 to your various bardic music abilities.

As a bard, when it comes to combat, you usually have two options. Fascinate a creature before combat starts and lead it off and keep it mesmerized until your allies have killed the others, or play Inspire Courage, giving people +1 to hit or Damage rolls. Song of the Heart would increase this to +2, and make it good, as opposed to simply a slight boost.

Other than that, there's not much a Bard can do. Around level 2-3, Bards have.. I think it was 3-5 spells per day, one or two castings of a level 1 spell. They are quite versatile, but it hardly makes any difference in a combat, unless you opt for illusion magic and play cleverly with it.

Generally, Bards cannot do much. It is only when they get Suggestion (And can start suggesting things they have fascinated) that they start becoming fun. Without much supplemental work, a Bard is just... lack-luster in all aspects, aside from being a skillmonkey. Granted, you said your party needed a skillmonkey, so that might fit your lot.

[Marlowe]

Alternatively, grab archery feats, use your first round to inspire courage, then shoot things. If you're out of Bardic music, then just skip stage one. If somebody engages you in combat, take a five-foot step or tumble out.

Inspire courage lasts for five rounds after you stop singing and do something else. A lot of combats only last that long. I'm not sure why so many seem to insist that a bard keep playing (and thus doing not something else) throughout the encounter.:smallconfused:

However, there are virtually no good feats specifically for Bards in core. Melodic Casting, Song of the Heart and others are all in splatbooks. Maybe spell focus-Illusion or Enchantment? But you won't even have spells until level 2.

[Heatwizard]

This guy is starting to show warning signs. Low magic, PHB only, optimization-phobic, regards mulliganing an outclassed set of stat rolls as 'cheating', apparently argument prone? You may want to consider sitting this one out. Much as I do enjoy a bad DM story, I don't envy the guys who spend hours/days going out to obtain them. Whatever you do, don't break his game; it'd just validate his fears.

[Zedicius]

At this point I'm no longer terribly concerned about combat, since he won't allow me to make the combat character I'd want to play anyway. Plus, we have a dwarf fighter, a half-orc fighter, a druid and a ranger in the party already. My friend who wanted to play the archivist is still unsure if he'll join or not.

My current idea is to be the party's skill-monkey / face... and use illusion and enchantment spells to jerk his NPCs around as much as possible. Has anyone ever read the Elfslayer Chronicles?

Right now I'm trying to convince him to at least allow Skill Tricks, so I can get Conceal Spellcasting.

[Marlowe]

Well, it looks as though you'll be the only member of the party with any charisma or social skills, so it seems you have your niche.

[Dairuga]

At this point I'm no longer terribly concerned about combat, since he won't allow me to make the combat character I'd want to play anyway. Plus, we have a dwarf fighter, a half-orc fighter, a druid and a ranger in the party already. My friend who wanted to play the archivist is still unsure if he'll join or not.

My current idea is to be the party's skill-monkey / face... and use illusion and enchantment spells to jerk his NPCs around as much as possible. Has anyone ever read the Elfslayer Chronicles?

Right now I'm trying to convince him to at least allow Skill Tricks, so I can get Conceal Spellcasting.

Hohoho. Well, that sounds like the way to go, now! If he does allow you to take skill tricks (probably not), Just tell him that it allows you to do a sleight of hand roll to conceal your spellcasting, much like he wanted to opt for you rolling perform to do the DFA's firebreath. It will be a way for you to sing out the verbal component and Dance the somatic components, which would make a rather interesting concept for a Bard.

Imagine, breakdancing bard. Everyone is fascinated by default.

Jerking around NPC's are awesome, even if it might make him scared of enchantment spells in the future. Just make sure you have Charm person. Having someone regard you as their best friend is invaluable. Suddenly, that inkeeper reckognized you as his long-lost friend and offered to let you stay in that inn for free. He overheard rumors that people was out after you? No problem, he'll hide your ass. Is that merchant giving you a hard time? BEst friends: Possible discount.

Also, of course, combat application. Or Pre-combat. If The bandit leader wants to off you, ask to get to sing him a poem for his brave and henious deeds first. If Disguise spell is available (or by simply asking if you can use singing as verbal component), you can literally make such a character bend over for you and have a change of heart after hearing your wonderful performance.

[Zedicius]

Hah, I just got a mail back and, joyous news... Conceal Spellcasting is allowed. Since, in pervious mails he stated that races and classes ought to be restricted too the player's handbook, I also inquired about feats and the possibilities of prestige classes. I got a fairly ambiguous answer with which he probably meant 'if I think it's ok' ... so, with some luck I might still be able to pick up some of the good bard feats.

[Jornophelanthas]

My current idea is to be the party's skill-monkey / face... and use illusion and enchantment spells to jerk his NPCs around as much as possible. Has anyone ever read the Elfslayer Chronicles?
Warning signs you should look out for is the DM vetoing the things you do, such as:
- declaring that Charm Person breaks as soon as you actually try to get the NPC to do something helpful;
- ignoring your skill ranks in Bluff or Diplomacy, and basing success or failure entirely on how close to 20 your die roll is;
- rewarding incredible success on skill checks with mediocre results;
- hardly ever giving you non-combat encounters, except railroaded cutscenes where the NPCs do all the talking, and whose minds are utterly unchangeable;
- declaring that Fascinate, Suggestion and the like do not work in combat;
- having all enemies attack you first, because spellcasters are universally hated, feared and discriminated against.

Do not hesitate to leave if you see one or more of these things happen to you.

To be honest, your DM sounds like he's making the typical mistake of realizing that there is unbalance in the classes, but blaming it on both the players and the non-core rulebooks, and solving it by replacing all the non-core rules with arbitrary houserules.

Also, you appear to have an unhealthy attitude towards wanting to play the exact things the DM does not want you to play. Please, do not expect the DM to challenge you if you play a Paladin / Wizard / Evil character. Instead, expect him to houserule away everything you do.
(Paladins will either be banned outright, or Fall within two sessions. Wizards will lose their spellbooks or get ganged up on by monsters. Evil characters will be actively disliked by any and all NPCs without reason, and will be lynched upon their first halfway-evil act.)
DMs rarely appreciate players going where they have told them in advance not to go.

[Verte]

- declaring that Fascinate, Suggestion and the like do not work in combat;

Fascinate actually doen't work in combat by RAW. Note the bolded text.



d20srd.org
Fascinate (Sp)

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.

To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Also, the spell hypnotism, which also facinates creatures, allows each of its targets a +2 to their saves if they are in combat. In addition, note that the description of the Fascination status effect specifically mentions that threatening behavior breaks the effect.


A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature’s ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.


declaring that Charm Person breaks as soon as you actually try to get the NPC to do something helpful

In addition, the targets of charm person do not necessarily do everything you tell them to - it's not dominate person. It also is less effective in the middle of combat, and will end if either you or your allies attack the target. See bolded text below.



d20srd.org
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

The other actions in your list may be arbitrary and annoying, but those two listed above may actually be examples of following RAW.

[Vizzerdrix]

I would go human druid---------
For mobility, you can ride one of your dogs,

No, he can't. :smalltongue:


Personally, I'd just play something squishy, broken or intentionally mild mannered. Either elf Sorcerer, Undead Taint focused elf wizard or an expert that refuses to adventure.

[Zedicius]

Aldrick was fairly average, at least for a gnome. From an early age he displayed talent for music, acting, magic and of course playing tricks. Unfortunatly he was also rather naive and had a rose tinted view on the world around him. As an eternal optimist he left his home town in the mountains to explore the surrounding lands and see the larger cities... and it was in one of those cities where everything went wrong.

Cheated in every tavern, mugged at every street corner, Aldrick became jaded rather quickly as his dreams of being a wanderer or adventurer were crushed and stepped on. When the last few coins he owned were confiscated by a corrupt gate guard, something in the gnome's mind broke.

With nothing left to lose, his usually good natured tricks and talents were put too a more deceptive use as he started to cheat at cards, gambles and bets to win his keep. He was frighteningly good at it too and anyone who looked like a mark, whether they were greedy, vane or just naive quickly found themselves a good deal poorer. Too his surprise, Aldrick was having fun... even when his exploits forced an innocent man in to slavery.

Now he moves from city to city and frequently uses disguises to help is schemes or to avoid getting caught. Although his attitude hasn't visibly changed, his optimistic personality is a facade, hiding an amoral con-man who is setting his sights on ever greater heists.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5759585/charsheets/bard-gnome.doc

Character finished and approved by the DM. First game is on monday. Wish me luck.

[Devils_Advocate]

Remember that alignment is maleable. If you want to play a nefarious, but not murderous character, his alignment could be evil or neutral. Just write down neutral and avoid the "stupid evil" type of play and you should be fine.
I'm not so sure about that. The DM said that an Evil character is OK so long as Zedicius has a good reason for why he's Evil, so it seems reasonably likely that a faux-Neutral character might actually annoy him more. Which brings me to the following:


Aldrick was having fun... even when his exploits forced an innocent man in to slavery.

Now he moves from city to city and frequently uses disguises to help is schemes or to avoid getting caught. Although his attitude hasn't visibly changed, his optimistic personality is a facade, hiding an amoral con-man who is setting his sights on ever greater heists.
The bolded parts above in particular make this guy sound to me like a stereotypical Evil character with "Chaotic Neutral" written on his character sheet.

For some amoral characters, you could make the argument that they're Neutral because they help or harm others as their self-interest dictates. But this dude sounds pretty biased towards ruthlessly exploiting people.

I guess that the question here is whether Aldrick can still be said to have general compunctions against killing the innocent. If he was convinced that killing an innocent person would get him a great deal of money with no negative consequences for him, would he do it? If he wouldn't, then he's not completely amoral, and at least arguably Neutral. But if he would, then he's pretty definitely Evil-aligned.

Aldrick sounds Neutral Evil or maybe Chaotic Evil to me, depending on how willing he is to bend to authority and convention in order to get what he wants. It might be best to unequivocally admit from the get-go that he's more of a villain than an antihero. I'm guessing that that's what better fits how you want to play him.

Just a suggestion.

[Zedicius]

According too the campaign document, slavery is a common thing with slaves making up the bulk of the population of any city. I -think- that what he's trying to describe is more akin to serfdom or willing slavery. Then again, the document also mentioned 'workforce' and 'gladiators' so it might also be a mixed thing.

Either way, I actually planned on starting the character out as evil, though I suggested to start with chaotic neutral since he hasn't gone in to cold-blooded murder territory and the DM agreed. I suspect his alignment will quickly change though. The friend I mentioned is playing a gray-elf wizard, is a neutral evil slaver and being the only two magic users in the party they will most likely stick together.