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Thump
2012-05-14, 06:27 PM
Right now, I'm playing an antipaladin in Pathfinder (houseruled so it doesn't have to be CE) and I have no idea how i'm supposed to roleplay him, given that he's my first evil character.

I play him kind of like Miko, except he acknowledges that he's a jackass, and he doesn't boss around his teammates quite as much, given that they're all insane.

He doesn't backstab teammates, but anyone else is fair game. He doesn't hurt children, but he will kill someone if they get in his way of his goal, which is to systematically destroy the governments of the world and place them under puppet rulers of Hell.

He also has this burning of hatred of anything that comes up "Good" on the Detect Good, and he kills it.

He also hates elves.





Amidoinitrite? :smallconfused:

Grod_The_Giant
2012-05-14, 06:37 PM
Lawful Evil is Darth Vader, classically. You have honor. You have a sense of duty. You have loyalty. If you give your word, you'll keep it. But you have absolutely no mercy. You're not going to flip out and start murdering people, because that's just sloppy. You have no interest in tearing down society-- you want to rule, not destroy. You'd generally rather twist the law to your own purpose than subvert it entirely.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-05-14, 06:39 PM
He flips out and kills anything that registers as good?

...Yeah. That's not lawful evil, that's stupid evil. He should probably treat good folk the same way he treats neutral folk, except for those damn zealot paladins.

Thump
2012-05-14, 06:41 PM
He flips out and kills anything that registers as good?

...Yeah. That's not lawful evil, that's stupid evil. He should probably treat good folk the same way he treats neutral folk, except for those damn zealot paladins.

Well, we've only came across paladins and good outsiders so far... so I'll change that. :P

Morithias
2012-05-14, 07:14 PM
Lawful evil is the long-term evil.

Lawful evil never does anything "For the lulz" they plan, they strategic think things out, and they can be kind to people if it serves their needs.

One of my friends put it this way.

"A chaotic evil person will be nice to you because you bribe him with money, a lawful evil person will be nice to you so you worship him and he becomes a god. A chaotic evil person will back stab you cause he felt like it, a lawful evil person will back stab you because he has no more use for you, after all he's a god."

Lawful evil is probably both the hardest and easiest evil to play. You can do ANYTHING you want and it can be in character, so long as it serves your ends. A chaotic evil person on the other hand is "smash smash smash I love to smash". As shown by the Demons.

Think ahead, plan outside of game time, and manipulate everyone to the ending you want. Remember, the devil made you do it.

Kaun
2012-05-14, 07:24 PM
Hatred of good is a weird one for LE, your classic LE archetype enjoys putting good people in situations where they have to choose between bad and really bad and watching it break them for the lulz.

Murdering them purely based on their life outlook seems too wasteful for an LG.

Gavinfoxx
2012-05-14, 07:28 PM
{Scrubbed}

Dienekes
2012-05-14, 07:37 PM
The incredibly easy shorthand to determine between what type of evil would do what action ask yourself: Would the Joker do this, or Lex Luthor?

Anyway, LE is kind of my favorite alignment to play as he can quite easily have an excuse to work with the heroes, help the heroes, and be a good teammate, because it's beneficial for him. That you can also be Machiavellian, self serving, without morals, and have an end game that ends with you on the throne is the fun part.

That's not to say that a LE guy can't attack every good aligned person they come across. It's not your stereotypical LE character, but it is definitely evil and definitely follows a very strict code of conduct: attack everyone who is good. So technically that's a LE character, but it'd be a pretty self destructive one.

Righteous Doggy
2012-05-14, 07:47 PM
Well people can always venture outside of their alignment. A good guy who's lawful can freak out about something that really gets to him and remain saint and paragon in all other situations, then suddenly shout "Suffer for all you put me through!" and stab something 18 times... but thats kind of iffy.

Anyways, lawful Evil is the Knight working for Evil, the dictator, the politician. He follows a code of some sort or serves a particular service. he won't flip out all the time like a chaotic nor will he go out of his way for a good act as often as a lawful nuetral. It sounds like compared to your teammates your probably okay.

I'd say your doing it alright, but I'm super lenient about the morality system.

Edit: and don't forget, alwful evil doesn't mean smart, sane, super loyal, or insane. There are dozens of ways to play an alignment.

Kane0
2012-05-14, 07:54 PM
Methodical, calculating and ruthess.

A lawful evil being will be friendly when and if it serves him, and is usually conning or discreet (not always though). They are lawful because they make the rules work for them for personal gain, not because they think rules are a good idea. They may or may not keep their word, and those that do are prone to twisting it for their benefit (twisted wishes come to mind).

if you get the chance, read up on the Devils and the 9 Hells of Baator, they exemplify most aspects of lawful evil perfectly.

Yajirobe
2012-05-14, 08:15 PM
For a LE antipaladin, I'd use the Knights of Takhisis in Dragonlance (do not confuse them with those degenerates called Knights of Neraka)

You believe in order.
You believe in honor.
You believe in Duty.
You believe that a worthy opponent deserves a clean death or, if he surrenders, to be spared. (Yet, you have the right to ask for a proper ransom form the organization he is part of, or his family. If those can't be reached or are unwilling/unable to pay, you also have the right to have the captive's services, as a slave or a servant)
You believe that the entity that empowers you is the rightful ruler of the world by its birthright. It is your Duty to ensure that the Natural Right (as in John Locke) that the entity is to rule is not denied. Your church, as the legitimate representative of the God on the Material Realm has the Duty to make the unbelievers see that you may lead them to good lives, if they pay the respect that is due to your god.
You protect those under your responsability, given that they follow your commands. There is no place for outlaws under your deity rule, as there is no place for rebels. Your peace is the peace of the jailhouse. You follow the commands of the Wardens, and all is good. Break the law and you got trouble.

Strive to make your organization more powerful but not necessarily in underhanded means (but you never really abstain from using them. You just never acknowledges their use). Get seats of power for it, a member of a council, or simply the right to estabilish a temple in broad daylight. You are RIGHT on your beliefs that you were born to rule, so you don't need to hide. Criminals hide. Use populist tactics with criminals and get the lower rabble to love you, since you killed the rapist, you ensured the robbers would never return, you brought ruin to the usurers who "stole" from the needy when they enforced outrageous interest rates. The Lawful Good-For-Nothing paladins are just righteous ***** with foolish talks of "fair trial" or "due process of law". The powerful are never punished, and the poor are always in misery. YOU, on the other hand, does not allow it. You drive the criminals away and you show them what happens if they return.


References:

IngSoc Party
Star Wars' Galactic Empire
Nazis, the propaganda part
Knights of Takhisis (one good example is the part on Dragons of Summer Flame when Lynch (the leader of Palanthas' Thieves Guild) and Ariakas (Highlord of the Knights of Takhisis) talk)

Solaris
2012-05-14, 08:20 PM
Rather like a LG paladin, except there's no mercy, no compassion in the motives - only self-interest and hatred.

Righteous Doggy
2012-05-14, 08:24 PM
Rather like a LG paladin, except there's no mercy, no compassion in the motives - only self-interest and hatred.

You can have Lawful Evil characters with good intentions can't you? Is it the goals or means? Is it right to you, but wrong to everyone else? What are your values? Lots of ways to look at alignment!

Solaris
2012-05-14, 08:35 PM
You can have Lawful Evil characters with good intentions can't you? Is it the goals or means? Is it right to you, but wrong to everyone else? What are your values? Lots of ways to look at alignment!

In real life, or in D&D?
In D&D, there's objective alignments and ends don't justify means. The Operative from Serenity may have had good intentions (for a given value), but he was still an evil man for whom mercy and compassion were not motivations, but hatred was. The ends, in D&D's morality system, would not have justified the means he utilized of obtaining them - otherwise paladins wouldn't fall, ever, so long as they were doing evil to serve the greater good.

hobbitkniver
2012-05-14, 08:36 PM
Theres a lot of people in real life to draw inspiration from for LE. Personally, I find it much easier than CE. Any bad guy with a general set of rules or loyalty.

KnightOfV
2012-05-14, 08:40 PM
Sounds to me like you're doing fine. I'm even fine with you losing your cool around the "good" alignment as long as you don't fly into a mindless rage. After all, good NPCs are a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites that pretend they are better than you because they claim to value the lives of the innocent useless. You understand the way the world really works.:smallamused:

Don't forget Redcloak is a great example of duty-bound, for a (good?) cause Lawful Evil, and Tarquin of self-centered this-is-for-me-and-my-friends, (but mostly for me), Lawful Evil. Many ways to play the alignment.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-05-14, 08:52 PM
Read Fiendish Codex II, p. 4-5, "Preface: the Pact Primeval". Not surprisingly, Asmodeus (the almost undisputed king of Baator, the Nine Hells) does Lawful Evil right.

hamishspence
2012-05-15, 12:57 AM
In real life, or in D&D?
In D&D, there's objective alignments and ends don't justify means. The Operative from Serenity may have had good intentions (for a given value), but he was still an evil man for whom mercy and compassion were not motivations, but hatred was. The ends, in D&D's morality system, would not have justified the means he utilized of obtaining them - otherwise paladins wouldn't fall, ever, so long as they were doing evil to serve the greater good.

A character can have a mix of evil and good motivations.

Imagine a vigilante motivated by love and compassion for innocent people in general to protect them from aggressors.

But also by sadism and cruelty- which he works off on those aggressors. A crueller, but less sociopathic version of Dexter or The Punisher, in short.

The ends certainly wouldn't justify the means- and the character could be evil- but their streak of "altruism, compassion, and making personal sacrifices to help others" is far wider than normal for an Evil character.

Loxagn
2012-05-15, 12:32 PM
Usually, when I think of Lawful Evil, I think of a few famous characters.

Light Yagami from Death Note, for one. A brilliant, cunning manipulator who does unspeakable things in the name of what he believes is 'right'.

Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men. Evil, heartless, terrifying and brutally violent. But, he has a thoroughly rigid 'code' that he follows. Principles he will not betray for any reason.

In terms of a Lawful Evil organization, I usually think of The Alliance from Firefly, or else a Generic Evil Bureaucracy.

EccentricCircle
2012-05-15, 01:20 PM
a Lawful evil character certainly doesn't have to believe that what they are doing is evil. if they believe that their actions serve some sort of greater good they can be convinced that they are still a paladin while actually being the blackest of blackguards. that sort of character makes a very interesting villain.

ChaosLord29
2012-05-15, 01:41 PM
You want a good example of Lawful Evil character who's example you can follow? Look no further than our very own Elan's father, General Tarquin. Personality wise he believes in the value of family, appreciates a good time, a good debate, a good sense of humor and can be downright sassy, but in the end, it's all about him and his goal of eventual, total dominion of the continent and he's willing to do anything to make that happen.

Think about the Lawful Neutral character, who follows the letter of the law and imposes order without regard for good and evil. Now imagine you're that, except that you enforce law and order with regard to your own selfish, evil ends. You lack sympathy, not empathy.

If your familiar with the series, Tywin Lannister of Game of Thrones is another good example to follow. He doesn't kill needlessly, but he doesn't mind lopping off a few heads or employing chaotic evil killers (like the mountain) to fulfill his goal, a lasting legacy for his house and family, and that the Lannisters should rule the 7 Kingdoms.

TheOOB
2012-05-15, 01:59 PM
There are many ways you can roleplay any alignment. The first question when playing any evil character is simple, is your character a villain? Not every evil character is(in fact I've played several heroes who are evil).

Lets like at what the alignment means. Evil is simple, Evil people are people willing to cause harm to people(innocents) to achieve their goals. A Lawful person believes in the importance of tradition, and authority and typically follows some code or set of rules.

So a Lawful Evil person is someone who harms people, but their actions are constrained by rules, codes, and/or traditions. Maybe they are a villain with standards, maybe they are a hero who consistently uses evil means to good ends, or maybe they are a corrupt politician, gaining power through legitimate, if underhanded means.

A Lawful Evil person does not just kill people for fun(thats Chaotic Evil, and a stupid one at that), and they rarely do evil for evil's sake(ignoring Devils for the moment).

Dr.Epic
2012-05-15, 04:18 PM
Basically, you have rules you follow (lawful) but you're not afraid to hurt, harm, or kill people that stand in the way of your personal goals (evil). I mean good characters can kill people too, but evil people usually do it for more trivial reasons and don't shed any tears about it. It's only certain people you care about. Most are just like pawns or tools.

Burner28
2012-05-16, 08:22 AM
A chaotic evil person on the other hand is "smash smash smash I love to smash".

Not necessarily as that is just one flavour of Chaotic Evil.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-05-16, 08:25 AM
The way you think it should be roleplayed.

QuidEst
2012-05-16, 08:31 AM
Quick and easy vice for CE: Wrath
Quick and easy vice for NE: Greed
Quick and easy vice for LE: Pride

For LE, you've got masterminds, certain fanatics, dictators, smug legalistic manipulators from behind the scenes, grand viziers (although I repeat myself), and so on.

It would be nice to give him some justification for why he hates good. He can be unbalanced, and enjoy their pain (giving him undercurrents of CE restrained by self-discipline in order to be more effective), or he could be an isolationist that wants man to stand alone, without guidance or interference (pitting him against neutral and evil deities as well). Maybe he's bent on imposing order, and evil is the way to get there, meaning good stands in his way (making him view his teammates as wrecking balls with funny habits of eating and sleeping, to be pointed at things to wreck until they're no longer useful). Just a few ideas.

Clawhound
2012-05-16, 08:59 AM
Recall that The Mafia is Lawful Evil.

If you are in a family, you are loyal to the family and the family is loyal to you. The head of the family gets the biggest rewards, but he also has to spread those rewards downward. If he doesn't spread the wealth, those under him will get unhappy and remove him.

I can see scenarios to being a mafioso.

The family don wants you to join an adventuring company. Make sure that anything for sale comes to his family first. He always wants the first pick of treasures for sale that come out of the wilderness. He does not want his enemies getting that good stuff instead of him. Your job is to make that happen. And if you happen to get rich and powerful along the way, you might just be the guy who can fill his shoes and become the next head of the family.

JustSomeGuy
2012-05-16, 10:57 AM
+1 Tywin Lannister.

Personally i don't think lawful evil hates good - they are too selfish/scheming to care if someone is good or not, as long as they don't screw up 'the plan'. I would say they work with them where useful too.

For me, the best example is Carl Weather's character in Predator. He has a mission, and will use anything and anyone to achieve it. He still holds belief that he is doing the greater good though, and values friends and such - but not above the mission (although he has a change of heart later on which is very much not LE, his early stuff is textbook to me).

Other examples - the Jewhunter (Inglorious B's), Rawls (the Wire), the old guy who was also in star trek (voyager perhaps? He was the shapeshifting security guy) who was police chief or something (LA Confidential).

LibraryOgre
2012-05-16, 12:29 PM
So, I like the Hackmaster, and it's definitions of alignment. Briefly, the Law-Chaos is means, while Good-Evil is ends.

Law believes in structure and society. Chaos believes in individual initiative and a freedom from societal constraints. This doesn't mean that a Chaotic person has no discipline or cannot make plans... he just makes plans with others who want to be in on his plans, and doesn't work on the scale of large organization, but rather individual actors. Evil believes in the advancement of self, even at the expense of others.

A lawful evil person uses the structure of society to advance his own agenda. The law is a bulwark, a castle from which he can advance himself, or which can serve to shield him from the more powerful who will attempt to squash him. Lex Luthor (the modern, businessman, version) is Lawful Evil. The structure of society protects the things he has built for himself, and so he frequently reinforces that structure to aid in his own comfort. The pain of others is not the goal of his work... he's not insane... but it is irrelevant to his goals, unless he thinks they can also further his goals.

Contrast this to Superman, who is Lawful Good. The law, to him, is a bulwark to shield the weak from the strong. He recognizes that the system can be manipulated by those of less than pure intent, but that does not negate the value of having a system. He creates and supports institutions that support his ideals for society... the Justice League is a good example of this, and the Justice League frequently works with governments, and is often hesitant to exceed its mandate; they don't randomly overthrow dictators because they can, because the upset to structure can sometimes cause more evil than a corrupt structure. If something isn't working, it should be fixed, rather than scrapping it and getting something better is a fairly lawful stance.

Contrast this Lawful Good to Green Arrow, who is firmly Chaotic Good. Yes, Ollie Queen has run a ginormous company, and has even been mayor. But his actions tend to be personal, and he's less about creating institutions than about individual action. Unlike Superman, he dismissed all officers as "blue fascists" (a view that mellowed a bit with time) due to the corruption of a few. If something isn't working, it should be scrapped and replaced with something else, as a chaotic view.

hamishspence
2012-05-16, 12:36 PM
The pain of others is not the goal of his work... he's not insane... but it is irrelevant to his goals, unless he thinks they can also further his goals.

I could see non-insane characters whose goal is the pain of others. They would be sadistic and hedonistic- their goal is to maximise their own pleasure- and the sight of others in pain (emotional, for some, physical, for others) is the source of it.

At the mild end, it could be a malicious gossip whose "meat and drink" is the sight of another grieving because of a ruined relationship.

Tyndmyr
2012-05-16, 12:36 PM
He also has this burning of hatred of anything that comes up "Good" on the Detect Good, and he kills it.

He also hates elves.

That sounds more like chaotic evil...

Lawful evil usually tends strongly toward the law side of the spectrum. Duty, honor, these are things that matter. They may not acknowledge good and evil as anything but the fulfillment of these things, or they may see other things as less valuable than upholding law and order.

He does not wish to destroy things or hurt people simply for the lulz, nor does he even necessarily enjoy taking such actions when he must. However, he is willing to do things other people may see as unacceptable in order to preserve and advance what he sees as just and right. Killing all the children of the barbarian tribe to prevent them from growing up to exact revenge on his society? Harsh, but if it's legal, he might well do that.

hamishspence
2012-05-16, 12:39 PM
There's differing degrees of evil- LE might run from the character who hates evil deeds but thinks that they are necessary, to the character who loves them- without ever changing on the Law-Chaos axis.

Conversely, you could have Chaotic Evil Well Intentioned Extremists- "scruples" don't have to be an LE-only trait.

LibraryOgre
2012-05-16, 12:47 PM
I could see non-insane characters whose goal is the pain of others. They would be sadistic and hedonistic- their goal is to maximise their own pleasure- and the sight of others in pain (emotional, for some, physical, for others) is the source of it.

At the mild end, it could be a malicious gossip whose "meat and drink" is the sight of another grieving because of a ruined relationship.

I'd argue that would be a form of insanity... but, then, I'm pretty firmly LG. :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2012-05-16, 12:48 PM
I figure that while it might shade toward insanity at the extreme end, it's not too atypical of human psychology. Enjoying the suffering of an enemy seems to be awfully common, at least.

Tyndmyr
2012-05-16, 01:50 PM
I'd argue that would be a form of insanity... but, then, I'm pretty firmly LG. :smallbiggrin:

I'll cop to being LE.

I'd consider that CE. NE at best.

Being out to fulfill your own pleasures is not at all lawful in orientation. And those pleasures being the pain of others is definitely evil.

hamishspence
2012-05-16, 02:43 PM
Being out to fulfill your own pleasures is not at all lawful in orientation.

True- but it's not necessarily a guarantee that the character is nonlawful, after other traits are taken into account. It may be an aspect of their personality- but it doesn't have to be the primary one.

Serpentine
2012-05-16, 02:52 PM
The incredibly easy shorthand to determine between what type of evil would do what action ask yourself: Would the Joker do this, or Lex Luthor?http://chzheroes.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/superheroes-batman-superman-dammit-lex-i-wanted-those1.jpg

The description in the OP looks pretty okay to me. Remember: there isn't just one way to play any alignment, and not every single characteristic, deed or goal of the character need be an alignment for the character to be of it. The "freaking out and wanting to attack anything that pings as Good" bit, for instance, although probably CE itself, can still fit on a LG character. I personally would discourage its use, though, as among other things it's pretty damn hard to justify it in-character...

hamishspence
2012-05-16, 02:55 PM
The "freaking out and wanting to attack anything that pings as Good" bit, for instance, although probably CE itself, can still fit on a LG character. I personally would discourage its use, though, as among other things it's pretty damn hard to justify it in-character...

I think you mean LE- LG wouldn't fit.

A belief that "altruists are the enemy of all that lives" and a somewhat proactive method of dealing with enemies, might be the rationale for that attacks on The Good.

Rion
2012-05-16, 04:41 PM
I don't know if other will agree, but I always found Legate Lanius (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBAHzsqBmCA) from Fallout: New Vegas to be a great example of LE.

Serpentine
2012-05-16, 04:47 PM
I think you mean LE- LG wouldn't fit.Um...
<.<
>.>
Indeed v.v

A belief that "altruists are the enemy of all that lives" and a somewhat proactive method of dealing with enemies, might be the rationale for that attacks on The Good.Mmmaybe... It wouldn't be enough to convince me if I were DM.

hamishspence
2012-05-16, 04:54 PM
"Revulsion/hatred for those who are Good" while more of a Card Carrying Villain trait, might fit with certain philosophies.

If, just as a sadistic person might pleasure just in witnessing someone else in emotional/physical pain, we have a person who finds revulsion, hatred or disgust in witnessing others in a state of emotional/physical happiness,

then such a person might be expected to go out of their way to oppose, undermine, even attack, those who are causing such happiness.

LibraryOgre
2012-05-16, 05:49 PM
Being out to fulfill your own pleasures is not at all lawful in orientation. And those pleasures being the pain of others is definitely evil.

Yes and no. I don't see being somewhat hedonistic as being inherently Chaotic, but a lot of it comes down to "Are you willing to weaken an organization to fulfill a personal goal?" A neutral person might. Chaotic definitely. Lawful will definitely look at the RoI on breaking that organization.

Serpentine
2012-05-16, 05:58 PM
"Revulsion/hatred for those who are Good" while more of a Card Carrying Villain trait, might fit with certain philosophies.

If, just as a sadistic person might pleasure just in witnessing someone else in emotional/physical pain, we have a person who finds revulsion, hatred or disgust in witnessing others in a state of emotional/physical happiness,

then such a person might be expected to go out of their way to oppose, undermine, even attack, those who are causing such happiness.There you go, that'd probably do it.

Man on Fire
2012-05-17, 06:45 AM
For me it's always finding character I would consider Lawful Evil, take a quote from them and make it the sentence that would define the character the best.

Solaris
2012-05-17, 11:53 AM
A character can have a mix of evil and good motivations.

Imagine a vigilante motivated by love and compassion for innocent people in general to protect them from aggressors.

But also by sadism and cruelty- which he works off on those aggressors. A crueller, but less sociopathic version of Dexter or The Punisher, in short.

The ends certainly wouldn't justify the means- and the character could be evil- but their streak of "altruism, compassion, and making personal sacrifices to help others" is far wider than normal for an Evil character.

Ordinarily I would agree with you, but this is an Anti-Paladin. Unless it means something vastly different than it did back in AD&D, it's someone who strives for evil as much as the Paladin strives for good.

dropdadgbe
2012-05-17, 12:27 PM
Even if you don't wind up taking any of the stats, you may want to take a look at the variant paladins from the SRD & Unearthed Arcana:

LG - Paladin of Honor
CG - Paladin of Freedom
LE - Paladin of Tyranny
CE - Paladin of Slaughter

Good seems to be more about helping other people. Evil is more about helping oneself. Evil can range between actively enjoying hurting other people to just not giving a damn what happens to them as long as you get what you want (the latter is more realistic).

I think Tywin Lannister and Joffrey Baratheon are probably both LE, but Joffrey delights in hurting people and Tywin doesn't seem to care.

LE and CE are both evil, but they go about it in different ways. LE prefers law because it creates a system they can game to their benefit. CE couldn't care less about the system so long as it means they can do what they want. Some chaotics are in fact anarchists who want to actively subvert the system, but I think the majority couldn't care less whether the system is there or not.

On the other hand, LG and CG both want to do good, but they fundamentally disagree on whether the law itself is good. LG may prefer law because it creates a system in which people are protected and can potentially do more good by working together than they could by themselves, whereas CG may oppose law because they find it cumbersome or are concerned about corruption.




Recall that The Mafia is Lawful Evil.

If you are in a family, you are loyal to the family and the family is loyal to you. The head of the family gets the biggest rewards, but he also has to spread those rewards downward. If he doesn't spread the wealth, those under him will get unhappy and remove him.
+1 for mafia. Sure, they're outlaws, but they've got their own internally-consistent code of conduct that you don't dare stray from. Also, they're more than happy to take advantage of the law when it suits them.

My character right now is a LE undead banker and mafia princess. She prides herself on staying true to her word, but that doesn't mean her word isn't full of loopholes. (Not every possible loophole under the sun, mind you -- some loopholes are just too tacky.)

hamishspence
2012-05-17, 12:37 PM
Ordinarily I would agree with you, but this is an Anti-Paladin. Unless it means something vastly different than it did back in AD&D, it's someone who strives for evil as much as the Paladin strives for good.

While it's hard to imagine an evil force willing to grant that level of "evil power" to a Well Intentioned Extremist, I wouldn't say it's impossible. There's blackguards out there (Michael Ambrose the witch hunter, in Tome of Magic, fo4 example) who still see themselves as servants of good, the order that cast them out as the corrupt ones, and the deity's ceasing to grant them paladin powers as a Test of Faith.

Dragon Magazine 312's Lawful Evil paladin variant (the Despot) is also much more Lawful than Evil- gets Aura of Law, gets Smite Chaos.

LibraryOgre
2012-05-17, 12:53 PM
I think one of the main problems the two-axis system has is that many behaviors associated with "Chaos" are also behaviors associated with "Evil", and many behaviors associated with "Law" are also associated with "Good." If you look at most mythological systems, the forces of Chaos were almost always those that later got painted as "evil", while those of order almost always got painted as good... because society was the factor that kept people alive, and anything that tore down societies and institutions... even relatively bad societies and institutions... was likely to destroy everything.

LibraryOgre
2012-05-17, 12:54 PM
I think one of the main problems the two-axis system has is that many behaviors associated with "Chaos" are also behaviors associated with "Evil", and many behaviors associated with "Law" are also associated with "Good." If you look at most mythological systems, the forces of Chaos were almost always those that later got painted as "evil", while those of order almost always got painted as good... because society was the factor that kept people alive, and anything that tore down societies and institutions... even relatively bad societies and institutions... was likely to destroy everything.

Man on Fire
2012-05-19, 05:20 PM
Popular types of Lawful Evil:

"I can see your whole history in your eyes. You were born with nothing. You had to struggle, connive and claw your way to power. But true power, the divine right to rule, is something you're born with." - Azula, Avatar The Last Airbender

Born to rule - You are proud and you have right to - you are from the upper class, a noble or a wizard or anyone well respected. Since you were born everything was given to you and you think you was born to rule. You think yourself choosen to lead people and they are just insignificant cattle that is there for you to control anyway you want to. Nobody will order you around and if somebody has enough power to, you will find a way to dispose of them and take it for yourself.
Some examples: Baron Zemo (Captain America, Thunderbolts), Scar (Lion King). Preffered theme song: Carolus Rex by Sabaton

"Pay a man enough and he'll walk barefoot into Hell"- David Xanatos, Gargoyles

Corrupted Lawyer - You are master schemer. You know people, you understand how they think and you threat them as paws you can move around and sacrifice as a part of your plans, as you move towards your goal. You know and understand the laws and can stretch them at your will, to get away with whatever you want. You always know how to get scott free from anything - you know who to pay or which political protectors seek. You rarerly get your hands dirty, but if you do, fight is more like a game of chess for you - you already planned every move and predicted what your opponent will do. You are also man of your word - people just aren't careful about the wording.
Some examples: Lex Luthor (Superman), Griffith (Berserk), Triple H (WWF/WWE), Doctor Doom (Fantatic Four), Leonardo Leonardo (Clerks)

"On it's own humanity is a destructive force. It needs a master." - Ras Al Ghul, Batman

Tyrant - You have a goal. A great goal. A goal who will change the wole world. And boy, does it needs changing. It's corrupted, rotten, full of chaos and destruction, a world where murderers and rapists can walk freely, where injustice prevails. You will put an end to it. Once and for all, you will cleanse this world from all this flith and create utopia. Utopia under your rule. You are closer to the heroes than they might acknowledge, you may follow the same ideals, but your methods are quite unnaceptable for those pink-collored glasses-wearing fools who doesn't realize you cannot make an omlette without breaking some eggs. You know you're right and you will create better world, even if you have to bathe this one in blood of thousands innocent. Once you are in charge, you will keep those flithy cattle in line, no crime will go unpunished, especially the crime of raising against you.
Some examples: Raoh (Fist of the North Star), Nox (Wakfu), Vultrumites (Invincible), Brian Zoldrak (Super Robot Wars), Lady of Charm (Black Company), Light Yagami (Death Note, before he moves into neutral evil territory), Archangel (Guyver), Redcloak and Tarquin (Order of the Stick)

Righteous Doggy
2012-05-19, 07:49 PM
I'm curious, why do most peoples idea of lawful evil point to evil lawyers and politicians? There are more examples of lawful evil outside of that aren't there?

Deophaun
2012-05-19, 08:12 PM
I'm curious, why do most peoples idea of lawful evil point to evil lawyers and politicians? There are more examples of lawful evil outside of that aren't there?
Because they're going to be the most consistent archetypes. Businessmen would also tend towards the lawful side (e.g. Lex Luthor), but then they often cross into politics as well (e.g. President Lex Luthor).

jaybird
2012-05-19, 08:16 PM
I'm curious, why do most peoples idea of lawful evil point to evil lawyers and politicians? There are more examples of lawful evil outside of that aren't there?

There are, but those two categories are the most commonly seen. IMO the best quote summing up Lawful Evil is from Vito Corleone in The Godfather - "A man with a gun can steal a briefcase of money, but a lawyer with his briefcase can steal the entire bank".

Sergeantbrother
2012-05-19, 11:46 PM
I think that another interesting, and one of my favorite, archetypes for a LE character is someone who believes in some greater good but is willing to do evil things to achieve that good goal. This could involve a great variety of different goals, including religious fanaticism, devotional to a political cause, a crime fighter, etc. This can be particularly interesting in introducing shades of gray into a campaign, like if the character actually is making the world a better place through his evil actions or fighting a greater evil.

This is an evil character who doesn't dislike good people, he believes himself to be good and helps good when he can, though may fight against the good guys as well if they get in the way. This character may also engage in all sorts of other good behavior, helping the needy, saving the innocent, etc.

hamishspence
2012-05-20, 04:06 AM
This is one of my preferred archetypes for Evil characters in general- and is supported by various comments in Book of Vile Darkness (its description of Elric of Melnibone in the Anti-Heroes section of the back of the book) and Champions of Ruin.

It can even be elaborated to Evil alignments other than LE- the CE Well Intentioned Extremist could be a rebel against tyranny in general and upholder of anarchy, who descends into disturbingly ruthless methods in the process. V in the V for Vendetta comic, for example.

Another one is the character who "only just qualifies as aligned"- most people would think of them as Neutral, except, they commit evil deeds (mild ones) just a little too often to qualify. "Spiteful and petty" might be their nature, rather than savagely malevolent.

7RED7
2012-05-20, 10:02 AM
Wouldn't the simplest explanation be...

From Lawful: Either a high level of self control, or a heavy focus on working within a set of rules. This would imply a certain amount of rigidity or consistency in motive and action. You place emphasis on what you allow and do not allow yourself to do.

From Evil: A moral foundation that does not provide incentive to help others unless it profits you (sharing this trait with Neutral), but can extend as far as harming others without cause or remorse for your own ends. This doesn't force you to perform evil acts, but also places no limit on how far you will go to profit yourself.

People are throwing a lot of specifics around, but the alignments are more about guidelines or limits. They can either determine the steady state, or set the boundaries of motives and action depending on how you use them.

Having an alignment doesn't mean "Play a guy that acts like this...", but determines the overall influence on the character's decision making.

hamishspence
2012-05-20, 10:10 AM
True. If part of the character's concept is tied to their alignment (say, they have an Evil-only PRC) and if the DM tends to change character alignment if they think the behaviour is inappropriate,

then it can be handy to be able to point out: "My character is evil because they..." and give a specific reason.

It might be the "no limit on how far they will go to profit themselves" for Selfish Evil.

Or it might be "no limit on how far they will go For The Greater Good" for Altruistic Evil.

Or, for that matter, it might be very limited, but the limits are wider than one would expect of a Neutral character. "Evil but with scruples".

Rogue Shadows
2012-05-20, 10:17 AM
Lawful evil is probably both the hardest and easiest evil to play. You can do ANYTHING you want and it can be in character, so long as it serves your ends. A chaotic evil person on the other hand is "smash smash smash I love to smash". As shown by the Demons.

Chaotic Evil doesn't have to be that. Chaotic Evil basically means you have no scruples. Chaos in general doesn't mean you can't plan for the long-term, it just means that your plans are likely to be morphic and subject to change.

Besides which, alignment is a sum of parts, not every part individually, unless that character is literally an embodiment of Chaos and Evil. The point is, individual aspects of a character can be lawful, neutral, chaotic, good, or evil.

hamishspence
2012-05-20, 10:30 AM
Besides which, alignment is a sum of parts, not every part individually, unless that character is literally an embodiment of Chaos and Evil. The point is, individual aspects of a character can be lawful, neutral, chaotic, good, or evil.

Indeed. I enjoy "thought experiments" of how far away from the basic tropes of their alignment a character can get without actually changing.

How good, (in the form of compassion) can the "most good" Evil characters get?

How non-neutral (in the form of being willing to make personal sacrifices for stranger), can the "least neutral" Neutral characters get?

How evil (in the form of selfishness), can the "most evil" Good characters get?

And so forth.