What is the best Melee Support Build in Pathfinder?

[Tokuhara]

Looking to build a military captain who will fill the role of Support and Party Face, but not be a caster, though dips in casting could work. I him to be a melee class who is a PF-equivalent to 4e's Warlord: the party's quarterback.

Is this possible? And I don't want him to be self-optimized. He's a team player who's skill is making the rest of the party look good. He gives up his spotlight to his allies so they can shine in combat.

[Bovine Colonel]

Disregarding tier imbalances, Paladin and Bard would, in my opinion, be the two best choices but you specified non-caster. The Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) class might work for your purposes, especially if you're using the Standard Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/standard-bearer) archetype. Said archetype is third party, though, so I'm not making any guarantees regarding its quality.

[Tokuhara]

Disregarding tier imbalances, Paladin and Bard would, in my opinion, be the two best choices but you specified non-caster. The Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) class might work for your purposes, especially if you're using the Standard Bearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/standard-bearer) archetype. Said archetype is third party, though, so I'm not making any guarantees regarding its quality.

Cavalier is very good, but to correct you, Standard Bearer is from Ultimate Combat, which was made by Paizo. This is the book that brought the Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger into existence, so I doubt a Paizo book is "3rd Party."

Anywho, Cavalier makes the "battlefield quarterback" viable, but what all should I do? Should I take a dip into Bard and go Battle Herald, go Cavalier 20, or possibly grab a couple levels of Paladin to make him more Charisma-Focused? And more importantly for Cavalier, what order is the "quarterback" order? I believe (thanks to The Gamer's Guide to the Cavalier podcast episode. Yes, it's a shameless shout-out to a very well done podcast series) that the Dragon Order is the premier support Order. Is there a better choice?

[Bovine Colonel]

Cavalier is very good, but to correct you, Standard Bearer is from Ultimate Combat, which was made by Paizo. This is the book that brought the Samurai, Ninja, and Gunslinger into existence, so I doubt a Paizo book is "3rd Party."

Oh, fudge me. I meant the Inspiring Commander (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/-3rd-party-publishers---cavalier-archetypes/rite-publishing/inspiring-commander) archetype from Rite Publishing.

[ngilop]

LOL yes I would say either Bard


or the Cavalier with the Inspiring Commander archetype, its prety dead on IMO with what you are looking for.

[Tokuhara]

Oh, fudge me. I meant the Inspiring Commander (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/-3rd-party-publishers---cavalier-archetypes/rite-publishing/inspiring-commander) archetype from Rite Publishing.

Ah... Standard Bearer can do the job as well, seeing as how my GM is kinda wary of non-core classes, let alone 3rd party stuff. My GM is the man who claims that Monk is overpowered, Wizards are too soft and need buffs, and that Orcs with Fighter Levels are worthy opponents for 20th level characters. Not saying he doesn't do a good job as a GM, he just doesn't use the forums to enhance his game, which is okay by me. To each their own.

[deuxhero]

Paladin. Just by being alive allies get some bonuses (and there are feats to improve these), you can share Smite Evil with friends, you are an acceptable healer and you got a spell list with lots of buffs.

[Tokuhara]

Paladin. Just by being alive allies get some bonuses (and there are feats to improve these), you can share Smite Evil with friends, you are an acceptable healer and you got a spell list with lots of buffs.

The party has a healbot cleric, but having some Archetypes to remove what I likely won't use/get could be nice. Any archetypes that are heavily front-loaded and give let me keep HAP (going Beast Rider Strategist)

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I recommend Magus....

OR


Order of the Dragon is my preferred order for this. Much better "quarterback" order

[Tokuhara]

I recommend Magus....

ha. ha. VERY funny Duncan...

So OotD is the best order for a support cavalier?

[doko239]

Warrior of the Holy Light paladin archetype from Ultimate Magic could be a possibility. Give up spellcasting for more uses of LOH, and can spend a use of LOH to create a beefed-up Bless effect that gets more powerful as you progress.

Add Fearless Aura and Dragonbane Aura feats, and you become a mobile buff machine.

Edit: Holy Tactician from Ultimate Combat is a very nice one too. Replaces Aura of Courage with Battlefield Presence, allowing you to grant teamwork feats to all allies within 30 feet. Also gives you a pseudo-Smite Evil that works with all allies, and gives allies extra 5-foot steps by spending a move action.

[Tokuhara]

Warrior of the Holy Light paladin archetype from Ultimate Magic could be a possibility. Give up spellcasting for more uses of LOH, and can spend a use of LOH to create a beefed-up Bless effect that gets more powerful as you progress.

Add Fearless Aura and Dragonbane Aura feats, and you become a mobile buff machine.

Edit: Holy Tactician from Ultimate Combat is a very nice one too. Replaces Aura of Courage with Battlefield Presence, allowing you to grant teamwork feats to all allies within 30 feet. Also gives you a pseudo-Smite Evil that works with all allies, and gives allies extra 5-foot steps by spending a move action.

Holy Tactician would be good, since IIRC, I don't lose Divine Health. So Beast Riding Strategist 5/Holy Tactician Paladin 3/? 12

[grarrrg]

role of Support and Party Face, but not be a caster, though dips in casting could work.

One of the first things that came to mind was Inquisitor.
Specifically an Infiltrator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/infiltrator) with the Conversion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/inquisitions/conversion-inquisition) Inquisition.

Inquisitor has 6 Skills/level, so plenty for Face skills.
Infiltrator adds your WIS to Bluff/Diplomacy checks.
Conversion replaces CHA with WIS for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate checks.

End result for a 1 level investment, DOUBLE WIS to Bluff and Diplomacy.

Also, starting at 3rd level you receive bonus Teamwork Feats, but other DON'T need to have them for them to work for you. This way if the party wants to they can pick them up, but even if they don't, the feats aren't wasted for you.

At 5th you'd pick up the Bane ability, Branded for Retribution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/branded-for-retribution) will let your allies share in the "fun" (recommend Extended Bane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extended-bane) and/or Extra Bane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-bane))

For 8 levels, you may want to look at the Shared Judgment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shared-judgment) feat, which lets you...share...your..judgment...

[Tokuhara]

One of the first things that came to mind was Inquisitor.
Specifically an Infiltrator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/infiltrator) with the Conversion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/inquisitions/conversion-inquisition) Inquisition.

Inquisitor has 6 Skills/level, so plenty for Face skills.
Infiltrator adds your WIS to Bluff/Diplomacy checks.
Conversion replaces CHA with WIS for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate checks.

End result for a 1 level investment, DOUBLE WIS to Bluff and Diplomacy.

Also, starting at 3rd level you receive bonus Teamwork Feats, but other DON'T need to have them for them to work for you. This way if the party wants to they can pick them up, but even if they don't, the feats aren't wasted for you.

At 5th you'd pick up the Bane ability, Branded for Retribution (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/branded-for-retribution) will let your allies share in the "fun" (recommend Extended Bane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extended-bane) and/or Extra Bane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-bane))

For 8 levels, you may want to look at the Shared Judgment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/shared-judgment) feat, which lets you...share...your..judgment...

So it's the exact same as Strategist getting Teamwork feats and using his features to "grant" them to the party?

And I never saw Inquisitor as a Diplomancer, but holy crap! Double-stat to 2 of the holy trinity of Diplomancy!

Sadly, there already is a Witch-Hunter Inquisitor/Freebooter Ranger in the party.

[grarrrg]

Holy Tactician from Ultimate Combat is a very nice one too. Replaces Aura of Courage with Battlefield Presence, allowing you to grant teamwork feats to all allies within 30 feet. Also gives you a pseudo-Smite Evil that works with all allies, and gives allies extra 5-foot steps by spending a move action.

I second Holy Tactician. Unlike similar "Teamwork Share" abilities, the Paladin's is unlimited uses/unlimited duration.


So it's the exact same as Strategist getting Teamwork feats and using his features to "grant" them to the party?

Nope.
Inquisitors have "Solo Tactics".
Basically, you get to pretend your allies have all of your Teamwork feats, so for you, they're basically feats.
It's "stealth encouragement", you can take all the Teamwork feats you want and get their 'normal' benefits all by yourself. Your teammates see you have all these Teamwork feats, so they are more inclined to take them.



And I never saw Inquisitor as a Diplomancer, but holy crap! Double-stat to 2 of the holy trinity of Diplomancy!

And all available for a 1 level dip!
ACT NOW!! SUPPLIES ARE unLIMITED!!!

[Tokuhara]

I second Holy Tactician. Unlike similar "Teamwork Share" abilities, the Paladin's is unlimited uses/unlimited duration.



Nope.
Inquisitors have "Solo Tactics".
Basically, you get to pretend your allies have all of your Teamwork feats, so for you, they're basically feats.
It's "stealth encouragement", you can take all the Teamwork feats you want and get their 'normal' benefits all by yourself. Your teammates see you have all these Teamwork feats, so they are more inclined to take them.




And all available for a 1 level dip!
ACT NOW!! SUPPLIES ARE unLIMITED!!!

So a 3 level dip in Holy Tactician is good for a Battlefield Leader?

Ok. Our Inqisitor is definitely taking Teamwork Feats so with me getting them as bonus feats, he and I can double team enemies for fun results.

Would taking one level be good, considering that I am CHA-focused?

[grarrrg]

So a 3 level dip in Holy Tactician is good for a Battlefield Leader?

Ok. Our Inqisitor is definitely taking Teamwork Feats so with me getting them as bonus feats, he and I can double team enemies for fun results.

Would taking one level be good, considering that I am CHA-focused?

Holy Tactician is good (I like 8 levels myself *coughratfolkcough*), but I do not (necessarily) recommend pairing it with Inquisitor, mainly due to the MADness. Unless you rolled really well, and have more stats than you know what to do with, you probably shouldn't mix Inquisitor and Tactician.

If you need the Skills, then Bard is a better fit for a Paladin pairing.

Hmm... actually, a dip of Bard then going into Pathfinder Chronicler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/pathfinder-chronicler) wouldn't be the worst idea.
It's 'basically' a Rogue without Sneak Attack. You get the full 8skills/level, Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Performance, and a bunch of other odd abilities.
Including the ability to Aid Another for +4 instead of just +2.

Also on the CHA front is Oracle > Lore Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) > Lore Keeper. You use CHA for Knowledge checks instead of INT.

[Tokuhara]

Holy Tactician is good (I like 8 levels myself *coughratfolkcough*), but I do not (necessarily) recommend pairing it with Inquisitor, mainly due to the MADness. Unless you rolled really well, and have more stats than you know what to do with, you probably shouldn't mix Inquisitor and Tactician.

If you need the Skills, then Bard is a better fit for a Paladin pairing.

Hmm... actually, a dip of Bard then going into Pathfinder Chronicler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/pathfinder-chronicler) wouldn't be the worst idea.
It's 'basically' a Rogue without Sneak Attack. You get the full 8skills/level, Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Performance, and a bunch of other odd abilities.
Including the ability to Aid Another for +4 instead of just +2.

Also on the CHA front is Oracle > Lore Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/lore) > Lore Keeper. You use CHA for Knowledge checks instead of INT.

Well, my build so far is Beast Rider Strategist Cavalier 5/Holy Tactician 3/? 12, so I need roughly 12 levels to do as much Leader stuff as I can.

[grarrrg]

I just had a great idea for a build. I even thought up a decent nickname for it.

I present:
"Talk...to the Fist!"

Infiltrator Inquisitor 2/Monk X
Infiltrator 1 gives Wis-to Bluff/Diplomacy.
Conversion Domain gives Wis-to Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate
Infiltrator 2 gives Wis-to-Initiative
Possibly take up to 4 levels of Inquisitor for better Judgment effects, and a 2nd daily use.

Monk is...not yet fully determined.
Main points: Is Wis-focused, has 4 skills/level, and is usually the LAST choice for a Diplomancer. An Inquisitor dip fixes this oversight.

Take the Intimidating Prowess feat to get Str-to-Intimidate.

And if talking doesn't work?
Then they can talk...TO THE FIST!

[Tokuhara]

I just had a great idea for a build. I even thought up a decent nickname for it.

I present:
"Talk...to the Fist!"

Infiltrator Inquisitor 2/Monk X
Infiltrator 1 gives Wis-to Bluff/Diplomacy.
Conversion Domain gives Wis-to Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate
Infiltrator 2 gives Wis-to-Initiative
Possibly take up to 4 levels of Inquisitor for better Judgment effects, and a 2nd daily use.

Monk is...not yet fully determined.
Main points: Is Wis-focused, has 4 skills/level, and is usually the LAST choice for a Diplomancer. An Inquisitor dip fixes this oversight.

Take the Intimidating Prowess feat to get Str-to-Intimidate.

And if talking doesn't work?
Then they can talk...TO THE FIST!

That's freaking hilarious, but is there a way to get Wisdom to hit and to damage in melee?

[grarrrg]

That's freaking hilarious, but is there a way to get Wisdom to hit and to damage in melee?

Sensei (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sensei) Monk gets Wis-to-hit with Unarmed and Monk weapons.

Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) Monk gets Wis-to-hit with Bows (but sort of defeats the point of 'Talk to the Fist')

Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) feat is Wis-to-hit with Deity's Favored Weapon, but requires Channel Energy, and the Channel Smite feat.

Guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon property is Wis-to-hit AND damage, BUT is "2nd Party" material (same company, but made for/during 3.5)

[Tokuhara]

Sensei (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/sensei) Monk gets Wis-to-hit with Unarmed and Monk weapons.

Zen Archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) Monk gets Wis-to-hit with Bows (but sort of defeats the point of 'Talk to the Fist')

Guided Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/-guided-hand) feat is Wis-to-hit with Deity's Favored Weapon, but requires Channel Energy, and the Channel Smite feat.

Guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon property is Wis-to-hit AND damage, BUT is "2nd Party" material (same company, but made for/during 3.5)

So Sensei Hungry Ghost Monk?

Since I plan on being Wis-centric, I plan on using Vanara (+2 Dex & Wis is NICE), plus if I took Monkey-Style (hur hur) feats, it would be both mechanically and flavor-wise optimal. I could also take Elemental Fist (Fire) for Flaming Fists. And it isn't fighting for him: it's "Aggressive negotiations."

And for fluff reasons, he looks like this: http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/18585/958896-bof2_meta_sten_thumb.jpg but with flaming legs as well

[doko239]

If you go Holy Tactician, you can get back Aura of Courage by dropping a level into Inheritor's Crusader. You could then eventually get Fearless Aura and Dragonbane aura.

[grarrrg]

First the LOLZ!!1!

I dare someone to show up for a game with the following build:
Inquisitor 1 (as above)/Monk 6+ w/Vow of Silence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-vows/vow-of-silence)
Maxed ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate
Character description:
"He lets his fists do the talking"
:smallbiggrin:


Anywho...Back to (relatively more) seriousness.


So Sensei Hungry Ghost Monk?
Sensei/Monk of the Lotus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-lotus) would fit more flavorfully.
Stunning Fist is traded out for the more "diplomatic" Touch of Serenity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/touch-of-serenity-combat).


Vanara ... plus if I took Monkey-Style (hur hur) feats, it would be both mechanically and flavor-wise optimal.
I don't get it...
Will he also be a master of gorilla warfare!?

[Tokuhara]

First the LOLZ!!1!

I dare someone to show up for a game with the following build:
Inquisitor 1 (as above)/Monk 6+ w/Vow of Silence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-vows/vow-of-silence)
Maxed ranks in Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate
Character description:
"He lets his fists do the talking"
:smallbiggrin:


Anywho...Back to (relatively more) seriousness.


Sensei/Monk of the Lotus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-lotus) would fit more flavorfully.
Stunning Fist is traded out for the more "diplomatic" Touch of Serenity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/touch-of-serenity-combat).


I don't get it...
Will he also be a master of gorilla warfare!?

I will do that! A silent Monkey-Man Inquisitor (as above) 3/Sensei Monk of the Lotus (with Vow of Silence) who studied Monkey-Style and took Elemental Fist (Fire).

And the Monkey Style when used by a Monkey-Man is kinda humorous. And yes.

[grarrrg]

I will do that! A silent Monkey-Man Inquisitor (as above) 3/Sensei Monk of the Lotus (with Vow of Silence) who studied Monkey-Style and took Elemental Fist (Fire).

And the Monkey Style when used by a Monkey-Man is kinda humorous. And yes.

Just be prepared to drop Vow of Silence if your DM doesn't like Mimes...

[Tokuhara]

Just be prepared to drop Vow of Silence if your DM doesn't like Mimes...

:-( Bummer. Gotta run that by the DM, but I don't think he'll complain (too bad)

So what trait and feats should I grab, and IF there's a PrC that is worth taking, should I take it?

[Akal Saris]

If you change your mind and go with Beast Rider Strategist Cavalier 5/Holy Tactician 3/?, then I would follow up with Bard 1/Battle Herald 10/X 1. Battle Herald looks like it would grant quite a few support options for that build.

[Tokuhara]

If you change your mind and go with Beast Rider Strategist Cavalier 5/Holy Tactician 3/?, then I would follow up with Bard 1/Battle Herald 10/X 1. Battle Herald looks like it would grant quite a few support options for that build.

I was leaning towards that, since the build reminds me of my old character from 3.X. He was a Human Cleric 1/Human Paragon 3/Marshal 6/Dragon Lord 10. I miss him, so now it's appropriate I resurrect him as a Beast Rider Strategist 5/Holy Tactician 3/Bard 1/Battle Herald 10/Hellknight 1

Now, what feats should I grab, and what trait should I grab (I get 1 at first level)

[doko239]

For Teamwork feats, I'd suggest Lookout, Shake it Off, and Coordinated Charge:

Lookout basically says, if anyone can act in surprise round, everyone can.

Shake it Off gives you +1 to all saves for each adjacent ally (max +4).

Coordinated Charge lets you spend an immediate action to charge whenever someone else does.

Add Improved Initiative to the above. For your trait, take Reactionary (+2 trait bonus to Init). That's +6 init before dex. Then, talk whoever your group rogue is into taking the Bandit archetype. That way, they get a full-round action in surprise round instead of just a standard action.

Basic tactic is, keep Lookout up at all times OOC. Initiative is rolled, your side can always act in surprise round. Due to your high Initiative, you have a good chance of acting before the enemy does.

Have allies hold action until you've acted. On your initiative, switch Battlefield Presence to use Coordinated Charge.

As soon as their initiative is up, have your bandit rogue buddy charge. Everyone else charges at the same time. In surprise round.

...

SURPRISE! :smallbiggrin:

You can potentially finish an encounter before your enemies can act, EVEN IF THEY SURPRISE YOU. :smallcool: If they survive, spend another move action next round to switch your aura to Shake it Off, and now everyone's got awesome saves.



Also, consider subbing two levels of Inheritor's Crusader for either 2 levels of Battle Herald or one level and your dip into Hellknight. You'll get Smite Evil and Aura of Courage, which you've lost due to the Holy Tactician archetype, as well as Destroyer of Tyranny:

Destroyer of Tyranny (Su): At 2nd level, a crusader can shatter the oppressive influence of others. Any creature targeted by a crusader’s channel positive energy ability or lay on hands gains a new saving throw against any ongoing charm or compulsion effect upon him. At the GM’s discretion, this can also allow the target a new saving throw against effects brought on by the power of belief, intimidation, or trickery, even if not actually a charm or compulsion.

Word of Healing lets you use Lay on Hands at 30' range, in exchange for halving the amount healed.

Unsanctioned Detection can help you with that one spot check you REALLY need to make.

Edit: Duck and Cover is awesome too. Share reflex saves with adjacent allies, and provide partial cover if you're wearing a shield.

[Tokuhara]

For Teamwork feats, I'd suggest Lookout, Shake it Off, and Coordinated Charge.

Consider subbing two levels of Inheritor's Crusader for either 2 levels of Battle Herald or one level and your dip into Hellknight. You'll get Smite Evil and Aura of Courage, which you've lost due to the Holy Tactician archetype, as well as Destroyer of Tyranny:

Destroyer of Tyranny (Su): At 2nd level, a crusader can shatter the oppressive influence of others. Any creature targeted by a crusader’s channel positive energy ability or lay on hands gains a new saving throw against any ongoing charm or compulsion effect upon him. At the GM’s discretion, this can also allow the target a new saving throw against effects brought on by the power of belief, intimidation, or trickery, even if not actually a charm or compulsion.

Word of Healing lets you use Lay on Hands at 30' range, in exchange for halving the amount healed.

Unsanctioned Detection can help you with that one spot check you REALLY need to make.

I'll drop Hellknight for 1 level of Inheritor's Crusader. Good enough for me.

Teamwork feats aren't my main worry, but thanks man.

Planning on taking the Chivalrous Trait for +1 Diplomacy and Knowledge: History checks

[doko239]

I just edited the crap out of my last reply, take another look :smallbiggrin: