Am I reading this right?

[killianh]

So I was reading up on some stuff to help build a warlock\something else gestalt class and found two classes that work for increasing the hell fire ability: Uncanny trickster and Legacy Champion.

When I read through them though I thought up something far more useful then just hell fire, which is what has led me to this question: Does Legacy Champion's increases to class features apply to Uncanny Trickster? If so then you would gain all of the Legacy abilities then apply the class features to Uncanny trickster, which would give you skill tricks and favourite tricks, as well as class features to apply to another class.

On something like a warblade with one of the legacy weapons could have all of the extra stuff and Level 20 Warblade abilities with a more optimized legacy weapon.

More important (and potentially more broken) does this apply to classes that grant duel class features? So i.e. Mystic Theurge, Enlightened Fist, Ultimate Magus, or the classes that grant casting levels with other things like IotSV, arcane trickster, etc?

I couldn't find anything RAW that said otherwise and from what I've seen its generally accepted that casting and casting levels are a class feature of PrCs so it seems logical and it works that you would only be trading 3 levels worth of class features for everything in Legacy champion and a butt load of skill tricks, but I still want to ask you guys if I'm missing something before I take this to my DM.

[Darrin]

When I read through them though I thought up something far more useful then just hell fire, which is what has led me to this question: Does Legacy Champion's increases to class features apply to Uncanny Trickster? If so then you would gain all of the Legacy abilities then apply the class features to Uncanny trickster, which would give you skill tricks and favourite tricks, as well as class features to apply to another class.


Oh, it gets much worse than that. You can use Legacy Champion to advance the class abilities of Uncanny Trickster... which you can then use to increase the class abilities of Legacy Champion, rinse and repeat. That will generally get some heavy objects thrown at your head.



On something like a warblade with one of the legacy weapons could have all of the extra stuff and Level 20 Warblade abilities with a more optimized legacy weapon.


Yes, Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion can be used to advance Warblade. This includes getting +1.0 Initiator Level, and another +0.5 Initiator Level for Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion. So you can advance your IL faster than if you were just a straight Warblade 20.



More important (and potentially more broken) does this apply to classes that grant duel class features? So i.e. Mystic Theurge, Enlightened Fist, Ultimate Magus, or the classes that grant casting levels with other things like IotSV, arcane trickster, etc?


Generally, yes, this should work with dual-progression classes. However, you do lose caster levels, so it's not exactly the most optimal build.



I couldn't find anything RAW that said otherwise and from what I've seen its generally accepted that casting and casting levels are a class feature of PrCs so it seems logical and it works that you would only be trading 3 levels worth of class features for everything in Legacy champion and a butt load of skill tricks, but I still want to ask you guys if I'm missing something before I take this to my DM.

The problems with this:

1) Those 3 levels of class features, if they are Tier 1 class levels, are worth way much more than whatever you can get out of Legacy Champion or Uncanny Trickster.

2) The designers didn't really think through all of the implications of Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion. You may run into a lot of rules headaches where you'll need a favorable DM ruling to sort things out.

3) This is somewhat high-level optimization, and if your DM isn't comfortable with that, then RAW/RAI be stuffed, you may get smacked with the banhammer anyway. At the very least, brush up on your book-dodging skills.

[killianh]

So it is a broken as I thought :smallbiggrin:

More broken for Warblade and the like than the higher end casters though.

On top of that I can create a chain once I get past level 7 in LC to get bonus\favourite trick for every trick for free.

That and invest in my reflex skill to dodge books. Awesome :smallsmile:

Seems all thats left is to invest in some basketweaving and I'm solid

[Darrin]

On top of that I can create a chain once I get past level 7 in LC to get bonus\favourite trick for every trick for free.


There's still some considerable argument about whether you can advance a PrC beyond the levels listed in the book (such as taking Hellfire Warlock or Uncanny Trickster beyond 3 levels). That's definitely something you'll want to clear with the DM first.

This is also where the wording of the class abilities can get persnickety... if you get certain things according to a formula (such as "at every odd level" or "every three levels after X"), then Legacy Champion might still work.

If your class abilities are granted explicitly at certain levels, such as "at 2nd and 4th you get X" (such as with Master of Nine's stances), then it probably doesn't work.