Education Feat and Knowledge Devotion

[Darth_Versity]

So I know Knowledge Devotion is always a handy feat for someone that's using attack rolls. But is it worth getting the Education feat from the Eberron campaign setting to get all knowledge skills as class skills on a character like a warblade to maximise knowledge devotions usefulness?

[Amphetryon]

So I know Knowledge Devotion is always a handy feat for someone that's using attack rolls. But is it worth getting the Education feat from the Eberron campaign setting to get all knowledge skills as class skills on a character like a warblade to maximise knowledge devotions usefulness?

Do you have a bonus Feat to spare? Do you anticipate making lots of Knowledge checks outside combat? If the answer to either of those is "yes" then you may well find it well worth your while.

[The-Mage-King]

A suggestion, to make it easier: are you running a human Warblade?


Would you be willing to trade off a feat at first level and your first level of Warblade to Never Worry About Cross-Class Skills Again?

Dip Factotum 1, take Able Learner. :smalltongue:


But yeah. Take it if you think that you'll need more knowledge checks. Don't, if you don't.

[Slipperychicken]

If you're planning on sinking a lot of ranks/effort into it, and Knowledge is independently useful in the games you play, I'd think so. A Factotum dip with Able learner (for knowledge skills) is another good way to go if there are other obscure skills you feel like picking up (like Use Magic Device), or if you like INT synergy. You can go farther into Factotum for things like Cunning Surge, but that's more of a personal preference for Factotum8/Initiator.


EDIT: [Shakes fist] Damn you, Swordsages!

[Darth_Versity]

Not really thinking along dipping lines, but more along the lines of 'is knowledge devotion good enough to be worth a second feat to up its benefit?'

[Righteous Doggy]

Not really thinking along dipping lines, but more along the lines of 'is knowledge devotion good enough to be worth a second feat to up its benefit?'

Well, otherwise you need to burn 11? skillpoints to have it usable on all enemies, with a chance of +2 attack/damage if you roll a 10 or over with a 18 int warblade. You could always take background Librarian and see if the dm lets you make them all in class skills :smalltongue:

Personally, I think the idea of a barbarian librarian is kinda epic...

[Amphetryon]

Personally, I think the idea of a barbarian librarian is kinda epic...
Could someone help me find my brain? Righteous Doggy just made it explode. . . .

[Bit Fiend]

Personally, I think the idea of a barbarian librarian is kinda epic...

Agreed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8) :smallbiggrin:

[Righteous Doggy]

Could someone help me find my brain? Righteous Doggy just made it explode. . . .

My favorite characters all happen to be librarians :smallsmile:.

Btw, a common use for knowledge devoution is Cloistered cleric with a monks belt and war domain/holywarrior. Congratz! You now know everything, have fist that do D10s, and have more Ac than you need.

And that video is pretty righteous ^_^.

[gbprime]

Ranger is an excellent chassis for this as well. Both two weapon fighting and archery benefit from the extra hit and damage, and with a base 6 skill points the class has the chops to cover most or all of the knowledge skills.

Make it a mystic ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, Arcane Strike, and an elvencraft longbow... and watch the veins on your DM's head. :smallamused:

[DefKab]

Personally, I think the idea of a barbarian librarian is kinda epic...

Would she be named Mariam? Madam Mariam, Barbarian Librarian.

[animewatcha]

Ever thought of combining it with power attack? Cause that is up to 5 'free' bab that can be converted into damage/PA-line carnage.

[Righteous Doggy]

Ever thought of combining it with power attack? Cause that is up to 5 'free' bab that can be converted into damage/PA-line carnage.

Where are you getting 5 from? at level 10 getting 36+ is stil very difficult... I thought that was half the point of attack roll bonuses anyway?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Agreed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8) :smallbiggrin:

On an unrelated note, I may well be the 1,000,000th viewer of that video (assuming YouTube updates in real time). Immediately after I watched it (on my phone), I went to the list that it came from, and it says 1,000,015 views. I know it's not likely, but still. :smallbiggrin:

[gbprime]

Where are you getting 5 from? at level 10 getting 36+ is stil very difficult... I thought that was half the point of attack roll bonuses anyway?

I think they're referring to the fact that Knowledge Devotion tops out at +5 to hit and damage, and that allows you to throw more BAB penalties onto Power Attack and still be able to hit the broad side of the proverbial barn.

[FMArthur]

Honestly, any ToB class can afford to piss away its feats because they have class features that can be relied on to take the burden. You won't be weak if you spend two feats on a the cool knowledgable-warrior character as a warblade, and you are taking direct combat benefit out of it anyway even if it seems small sometimes. Two feats for KD is not a terrible trade regardless.

Being an out-of-combat knowledge monkey is a very handy side effect of this combination, giving you a special peacetime role that is unlikely to overlap with someone else's. I've always found it useful and fun.

[Draz74]

Spending a feat on Education won't ruin a good character, but ... eh, personally, I'd rather not. Feats are precious, and some of them give you a lot more in the way of new options than just adding skills to your class list.

All the ToB classes have at least one good Knowledge skill out of the box, and the Knowledge Devotion feat itself will give you another one of your choice. That means you can choose two of the six monster categories for such a character to really know how to fight (with high bonuses).

Dipping one rank in the other four skills cross-class, so that you can get at least a +1 bonus and maybe more if you get lucky, isn't all that painful.

I'd rather do this and save a feat (and some skill points), rather than make sure that I'll always be taking advantage of KD in every battle.

[Bloodgruve]

Collector of Stories skill trick hasn't been mentioned yet. 2 skill points at 2nd level to give you a +5 Knowledge check is pretty good. May be an alternative to a feat. Check with your DM to make sure that they work together though.

Blood~

[Curmudgeon]

Collector of Stories works just fine with Knowledge Devotion, with two limitations:

You still can't identify any creatures without at least 1 skill rank in the associated Knowledge skill (since the DC is 10 + HD, and only DC 10 or less checks can be made untrained; even 1/8 HD puts the DC above 10).
Skill tricks are limited to 1 use per encounter. If you're up against multiple creature types you get the bonus for just one Knowledge check.

[Bloodgruve]

I had seen some debate against Collector of Stories and Knowledge Devotion somewhere but I would argue that work together also.

[Righteous Doggy]

I had seen some debate against Collector of Stories and Knowledge Devotion somewhere but I would argue that work together also.

I kick butt better becuase I know things about monsters. I know things about monsters becuase I collect stories... Whats the debate exactly?

[Benly]

Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories don't work together strictly as written. Collector of Stories explicitly applies to knowledge checks to identify monsters, which is a particular application of the Knowledge skill. Knowledge Devotion doesn't say "when you identify a monster, you get such-and-such bonus"; instead it gives you a new skill option to roll the skill and get the bonuses..

It would certainly make thematic sense to houserule them as working together, because they're narratively similar, but going off the mechanical details of their wording they don't.

[animewatcha]

Take the knowledge roll. You have bonus to hit and dam. Add 5 to result and get entitled to the appropriate info about mob. What's so hard about it?

[Benly]

Take the knowledge roll. You have bonus to hit and dam. Add 5 to result and get entitled to the appropriate info about mob. What's so hard about it?

There's nothing "hard" about it, it's just that going strictly off how the two are written, it's not how they work. Knowledge Devotion doesn't work off the monster-identification check. It uses a separate roll, and so Collector Of Stories doesn't apply.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't play it however feels right at your table, or that them not working together makes more sense, or anything like that - I am just saying that this is how these two abilities are written. Personally, I think that having Knowledge Devotion run off the identification check mostly serves to streamline the whole process harmlessly, but the rules aren't written in the most streamlined way they could be.

[Draz74]

Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories don't work together strictly as written. Collector of Stories explicitly applies to knowledge checks to identify monsters, which is a particular application of the Knowledge skill. Knowledge Devotion doesn't say "when you identify a monster, you get such-and-such bonus"; instead it gives you a new skill option to roll the skill and get the bonuses..

It would certainly make thematic sense to houserule them as working together, because they're narratively similar, but going off the mechanical details of their wording they don't.

Yeah, that's what I thought too ... but Curmudgeon is usually very conscientious about that sort of detail ...

[Curmudgeon]

Knowledge Devotion and Collector of Stories don't work together strictly as written. Collector of Stories explicitly applies to knowledge checks to identify monsters, which is a particular application of the Knowledge skill. Knowledge Devotion doesn't say "when you identify a monster, you get such-and-such bonus"; instead it gives you a new skill option to roll the skill and get the bonuses.
I believe you're mistaken.
Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD.

Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature or to learn its special powers or vulnerabilities, you gain a +5 competence bonus on the check. To use Knowledge Devotion you must make a Knowledge check based on the creature type. To know what that type is, you must succeed on a Knowledge check associated with that creature type. You cannot try the same Knowledge check again. Collector of Stories pertains to identifying a creature (your basic Knowledge check) and to learning its vulnerabilities (the benefit of Knowledge Devotion). It's a single check both to identify the creature and to obtain the Knowledge Devotion bonus, and that single check receives the CoS bonus.

[Benly]

So, here's the problem. The confusion comes from:


Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill. You then receive an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat.

And it sure looks like that means it piggybacks on the Knowledge check. Except that the later text makes clear that it doesn't:


You can make only one Knowledge check per creature type per combat.

Which is shortly thereafter clarified as:


Alhandra's Knowledge (arcana) check grants her a +3 insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against the
black dragon. Later, a half-dragon enters the fray. Alhandra cannot make another check since she has already checked for the dragon type this combat, but she can apply the +3 insight bonus to her attack rolls and damage rolls against the half-dragon as well.

So, here's the problem. Knowledge Devotion is driven by a kind of check that you can only make once per creature type per combat; this is made unambiguously clear with the half-dragon example. It doesn't say she can't check to get a higher bonus, it says she can't make the check again at all. If we assume that Knowledge Devotion works off the monster-knowledge check as defined in the PHB, you are forbidden to make a second Knowledge check to identify another dragon if you have already identified a dragon this fight.

On the other hand, "a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook" can equally well be read to mean "a knowledge check, using the correlations between type and skill listed on page 78" rather than "make the Knowledge check described on page 78". This reading does not require the unusual nerf of identification checks that the other reading does, and so it's the one that I subscribe to. Unfortunately, it means that Knowledge Devotion is a separate check that is not subject to Collector Of Stories.

[Righteous Doggy]

I... fail to see where your coming from Benly, sorry. Its not allowed a second time because he already made the check, and why would you roll twice to recognize the monster? Does that really make sense?

[Curmudgeon]

This reading does not require the unusual nerf of identification checks that the other reading does, and so it's the one that I subscribe to. Unfortunately, it means that Knowledge Devotion is a separate check that is not subject to Collector Of Stories.
There is no "unusual nerf of identification checks"; there is instead a complete prohibition against retrying any Knowledge check. Identification of the monster, and bonus based on Knowledge Devotion, are required by this rules limitation to be a single check.

[Benly]

I... fail to see where your coming from Benly, sorry. Its not allowed a second time because he already made the check, and why would you roll twice to recognize the monster? Does that really make sense?

You can only roll once per monster type, such as dragon or aberration, with Knowledge Devotion. That is made explicit. If that is also the roll used for monster identification, then you have the situation where you start fighting a white dragon (for example), make your knowledge check, a wyvern joins the fight, and you are not able to make a check to identify the wyvern because you have already identified a dragon this fight.

That said, if you interpret the knowledge rules as "you make one Knowledge: Arcana check at the start and then use that roll to identify every monster that appears for the duration of the encounter", it is internally consistent. However, since "until the end of the encounter" wasn't a thing that was done at the time 3.5 started, it seems odd to assume it as the default for a core mechanic.

edit because I post slow:


There is no "unusual nerf of identification checks"; there is instead a complete prohibition against retrying any Knowledge check. Identification of the monster, and bonus based on Knowledge Devotion, are required by this rules limitation to be a single check.

Again, the system for Knowledge Devotion would forbid making a knowledge check against a new creature entering the fight if it is of the same type as a previous creature in the fight. That said, if your table has always played such that you make one K: Arcana check at the beginning of a fight and use it for every monster that K: Arcana could apply to in that fight instead of making checks against each kind of creature encountered, I can see how it doesn't seem contradictory.

[Righteous Doggy]

I've never had to use several knowledge checks in a fight, really only if something is off, such as a less common creature. Just one roll for the whole lot if its a slightly varied bunch. I always see the check as...
Oh hey, random encounter. *rolls* I recognize thats a human gaurd! I know its weakness! *arrows knee*
but I like to use the quick/efficient instead of raw when I can, and most of my dms haven't stopped me to open a book.

[Benly]

I've never had to use several knowledge checks in a fight, really only if something is off, such as a less common creature. Just one roll for the whole lot if its a slightly varied bunch. I always see the check as...
Oh hey, random encounter. *rolls* I recognize thats a human gaurd! I know its weakness! *arrows knee*
but I like to use the quick/efficient instead of raw when I can, and most of my dms haven't stopped me to open a book.

That's a reasonable time-saver, the same way that rolling initiative for groups of goons at a time is a reasonable time-saver even though theoretically each creature is supposed to have its own initiative.

To clarify: I have always seen Knowledge checks used such that a separate check is made for each species in a fight, such that a fight with a wyvern and a green dragon would require two separate Knowledge: Arcana checks to answer two separate "questions". Everyone I know does it that way, and I have always assumed that was the default. If you do this, it seems unreasonable that Knowledge Devotion could be the same check, for reasons I have described.

That said, I can see how it would be possible to read the Knowledge rules such that you assume a single check is made and checked against the DC for every monster of the type in the fight, and if you do this then it is reasonable to assume that Knowledge Devotion is piggybacked on the same check. I have never been at a table where Knowledge identification is played that way, but I'm perfectly willing to believe they exist.

[Righteous Doggy]

Maybe it would be simpler to see it as pulling out a bunch of knowledge of this one grouping of thing, rather than as "I need to remember EXACTLY what that thing is... crap rolled a 1!(Fails to recognize own species)" and more of... "Hey, that thing has scales. What do I know about scaley things"

[Benly]

Maybe it would be simpler to see it as pulling out a bunch of knowledge of this one grouping of thing, rather than as "I need to remember EXACTLY what that thing is... crap rolled a 1!(Fails to recognize own species)" and more of... "Hey, that thing has scales. What do I know about scaley things"

Can I ask that you not drag out hyperbole about "fails to recognize own species"? Because that's equally applicable to either category: if you're fighting orcs, goblins, humans and elves under the one-check system and roll a 1 on your K: Local, you don't know what any of these strange beasts might be, as opposed to "well, you've never seen an orc up close but you know what these other guys are". It doesn't add to the conversation except as an attempt to make whichever reading you don't support look dumb.

[Righteous Doggy]

Was actually refering to my own group rulings, because players usually use humanoids which is knowledge local. Which if you ruled a one on could lead to interesting circumstancse...

[Benly]

Was actually refering to my own group rulings, because players usually use humanoids which is knowledge local. Which if you ruled a one on could lead to interesting circumstancse...

Right, but it's equally ridiculous whichever way you do Knowledge checks, so using that as your example for one and "what do I know about dragons" as your example for the other seems kind of like trying to win an argument through insult.

That said, in my games, if you roll 1 on a common-knowledge creature, you just don't know anything immediately useful - you know that orcs are big muscly smelly jerks, but not anything of tactical or strategic value.

[Righteous Doggy]

Rule of funny and cool can be very entertaining, dood~ Do it however you like... Its too late for me to put a great arguement.

Anyways, how do you even know which knowledge check you were supposed to be rolling? ever thought about that logic?

[Benly]

Rule of funny and cool can be very entertaining, dood~ Do it however you like... Its too late for me to put a great arguement.

Anyways, how do you even know which knowledge check you were supposed to be rolling? ever thought about that logic?

..okay?

I'm not looking for a fight or anything, I'm just actually genuinely curious about whether other people do the one-roll-for-all-monster-species-at-once thing. I don't have an investment in people doing it one way or the other, it just strikes me as weird that you have these two very different possible ways of reading a fairly basic rule.

[Acanous]

From an in-game standpoint, all knowledge skills are the same thing (Your memory of archived facts) and each category of knowledge check simply expands upon your knowledge in that area. So you're taking one action to "Think about what you're looking at" and the most applicable knowledge is checked.

From a RAW perspective, you can only make one such check per round, which *Kind of* makes sense (Hm, we've got scaley things, goopey things, and glowy things coming at us, which one should I analyze first?) but it's all considered the same skill. Like Craft, Knowledge is one skill with many subcategories.
(Craft is "Make things" with the subcategories of "Make wooden things" "Make Metal things" Etc.)
So it does make sense that you always get the applicable Knowledge check.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

..okay?

I'm not looking for a fight or anything, I'm just actually genuinely curious about whether other people do the one-roll-for-all-monster-species-at-once thing. I don't have an investment in people doing it one way or the other, it just strikes me as weird that you have these two very different possible ways of reading a fairly basic rule.

But it's two seperate things, no?

You encounter a green dragon. Roll knowledge arcana, get your +5 CoS. You roll a 3 and are granted a, say, +2 bonus on attack and damage vs dragons this fight. The DM also tells you that you know they like to eat elves (and perhaps other more relevant info).

Now a wyvern enters the fray. You can make a new knowledge arcana check and you roll a natural 20, but you don't get the +5 since skill tricks go only once per encounter. The DM informs you that this is also a dragon, a wyvern, even and tells you it has a poison attack, a fondness for yellow flowers and his telephone number (because you rolled really high on the knowledge). However, your attack and damage bonus remains +2, since you can only roll for knowledge devotion (dragon) once per encounter.

Without re-reading the rules, that's the way I deal with this. I honestly do not see the problem.

[Curmudgeon]

Autopsibiofeeder has parsed the rules in a straightforward fashion. The first check for Knowledge of a creature observed in an encounter is also the Knowledge Devotion check result for its creature type in the fight. Other creatures in the fray allow a new Knowledge check for each creature and, if it's the first of its type in that battle, that's also applicable to a new Knowledge Devotion result for a new creature type. If the player wishes, one of those checks also benefits from their sole use of Collector of Stories for the encounter.

There's no need for house rules about group checks for creature types. You do need to track the Knowledge Devotion results for each different creature type encountered, of course.

[Darth_Versity]

Autopsibiofeeder has parsed the rules in a straightforward fashion. The first check for Knowledge of a creature observed in an encounter is also the Knowledge Devotion check result for its creature type in the fight. Other creatures in the fray allow a new Knowledge check for each creature and, if it's the first of its type in that battle, that's also applicable to a new Knowledge Devotion result for a new creature type. If the player wishes, one of those checks also benefits from their sole use of Collector of Stories for the encounter.

There's no need for house rules about group checks for creature types. You do need to track the Knowledge Devotion results for each different creature type encountered, of course.

While I agree that rolling the Knowledge Devotion check in with identifying a creature is easier, that is not RAW. Benly has it right. The check for Knowledge Devotion is a special check that is available when you take the feat.

The simple proof of this is based on the creature type. If I was fighting a Hill Giant, Fire Giant and Ogre all at once I would roll 3 times to identify them (adding Collector of stories to one roll) but only roll once for Knowledge Devotion and applying the bonus to all three enemies.

It would make sense to say that you only roll once and apply to everything but thats not the RAW reading.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

While I agree that rolling the Knowledge Devotion check in with identifying a creature is easier, that is not RAW. Benly has it right. The check for Knowledge Devotion is a special check that is available when you take the feat.

The simple proof of this is based on the creature type. If I was fighting a Hill Giant, Fire Giant and Ogre all at once I would roll 3 times to identify them (adding Collector of stories to one roll) but only roll once for Knowledge Devotion and applying the bonus to all three enemies.

It would make sense to say that you only roll once and apply to everything but thats not the RAW reading.

Sure, you can roll the Knowledge devotion check seperately or combine it with the knowledge check you wanted to make anyway (where the latter makes an awful lot of sense to me).
However, the confusion in this thread is, if I read it right, that rolling Knowledge devotion and knowledge (normal) in one roll would result in that you cannot roll the knowledge (normal) again in that combat for the same creature type, which just is not the case. They are two separate things.

[Darth_Versity]

Sure, you can roll the Knowledge devotion check seperately or combine it with the knowledge check you wanted to make anyway (where the latter makes an awful lot of sense to me).
However, the confusion in this thread is, if I read it right, that rolling Knowledge devotion and knowledge (normal) in one roll would result in that you cannot roll the knowledge (normal) again in that combat for the same creature type, which just is not the case. They are two separate things.

Actually I believe the confusion came from Collector of Stories. If collector of stories can apply to Knowledge Devotion then you can only roll 1 knowledge check per encounter per creature type. As this is clearly not the case the Collector of Stories obviously does not apply to Knowledge Devotion.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Actually I believe the confusion came from Collector of Stories. If collector of stories can apply to Knowledge Devotion then you can only roll 1 knowledge check per encounter per creature type. As this is clearly not the case the Collector of Stories obviously does not apply to Knowledge Devotion.

Emphasis mine. CoS can apply to Knowledge devotion, but only once per encounter. You get a +5 for the first dragon (which fuels your knowledge devotion), and not for the second dragon, but that doesn't mean you cannot roll knowledge for the second dragon. If then an aberration joins the fight, you won't get a +5 on your knowledge devotion (dungeoneering) check.

If I have a skill trick that gives me a +5 on tumble to avoid an AoO once per encounter, does that mean I can only roll tumble to avoid an AoO once per encounter?

[Darth_Versity]

Emphasis mine. CoS can apply to Knowledge devotion, but only once per encounter. You get a +5 for the first dragon (which fuels your knowledge devotion), and not for the second dragon, but that doesn't mean you cannot roll knowledge for the second dragon. If then an aberration joins the fight, you won't get a +5 on your knowledge devotion (dungeoneering) check.

If I have a skill trick that gives me a +5 on tumble to avoid an AoO once per encounter, does that mean I can only roll tumble to avoid an AoO once per encounter?

Sorry, you missunderstand because i didn't explain properly. The original point that was made by Bloodgruve was that Collector of Stories applied to Knowledge Devotion. Benly then questioned this stating that Identifying a Moster (which is what Collector of Stories applies to) was not the same thing as Knowledge Devotion (which is its own skill check, seperate from Identifying a monster)

Some people complained that they were the same check, not different once. My point is simply that Knowledge Devotion can only be used once per creature type, where as a Identifying a Monster can be done once per monster on the field. If they were the same thing then Knowledge Devotion would have a different result per monster, not per creature type.

Since this proves that they are not the same skill check then it also proves that Collector of Stories does not apply to Knowledge Devotion.

[Bloodgruve]

If I were the DM and a player wanted to base his character around the study of opponents and knowledge devotion to defeat them I would allow Collector of Stories to work. I would hope that they would use these to flesh out the character and give it some purpose. They are so thematically close that I would argue RAI even if it may not RAW.

I would think the Education feat would be good here. It will save you from multiclassing and Able Learner. I am looking at a Duskblade with an Archivist dip with Knowledge Devotion to work the 'I know where to hit this guy' flavor (throwing in Versatile Spellcaster for fun)

Blood~

[Benly]

If I were the DM and a player wanted to base his character around the study of opponents and knowledge devotion to defeat them I would allow Collector of Stories to work. I would hope that they would use these to flesh out the character and give it some purpose. They are so thematically close that I would argue RAI even if it may not RAW.

Blood~

It's a totally reasonable house rule and, all told, I'd probably allow it too. My only point is that it's not RAW; if you don't like the RAW that's something to sort out at your table.

[Curmudgeon]

While I agree that rolling the Knowledge Devotion check in with identifying a creature is easier, that is not RAW. Benly has it right. The check for Knowledge Devotion is a special check that is available when you take the feat.

Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill. The feat specifies that you can make a Knowledge check, but doesn't describe this as a special check. It does not grant any exception to the Try Again limit for the skill.

It would seem that you and Benly are reading something in the feat that the rest of us aren't seeing. Could you describe which parts of the RAW establish that this Knowledge check is special, or somehow exempt from the regular skill rules?

[Benly]

The feat specifies that you can make a Knowledge check, but doesn't describe this as a special check. It does not grant any exception to the Try Again limit for the skill.

It would seem that you and Benly are reading something in the feat that the rest of us aren't seeing. Could you describe which parts of the RAW establish that this Knowledge check is special, or somehow exempt from the regular skill rules?

Okay, the issue depends on a particular reading of the Knowledge checks to identify and from the particular rules laid out in Knowledge Devotion's description. The theoretical situation I'm about to propose isn't a rhetorical trap or anything, I'm just trying to make clear what the different readings that lead to this are.

Suppose you had a PC who was in a fight with a wyvern. The PC's player asks to roll K: Arcana to identify the wyvern's abilities (per PHB, since wyverns are dragons). He makes his check and you proceed. Halfway through the fight, a green dragon appears. The PC's player wants to use Knowledge to find out what the green dragon's abilities are. Which of the following do you do?

1: The player rolls K: Arcana again, this time as a separate check to identify the creature because he is asking a different "question" and therefore needs a different check.
2: The player does not roll K: Arcana again; the previous check identifies how much he remembers about all kinds of dragons right now, so the results of the previous check are compared to the green dragon's DC.
3: The player does not roll K: Arcana again; he's gotten all he can from that skill this fight. He does not learn anything about green dragons.


Now, here's the reason for this question. I have always played it as 1, and every table I've played at has 1 - but it is possible (if not intuitive to me personally) to read it as 2, so I assume there may be tables out there where it's played at 2.

Knowledge Devotion explicitly uses method 2, as made clear in its example of use. Therefore, if you are from a table that uses method 1 for Knowledge checks, it seems "obvious" that Knowledge Devotion is a different check. If you have always used method 2, it may seem equally "obvious" that it is not. That is where all this confusion is coming from.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I also have the feeling you guys are reading something in the descriptions I am not seeing.


Sorry, you missunderstand because i didn't explain properly. The original point that was made by Bloodgruve was that Collector of Stories applied to Knowledge Devotion.

Aye :smallsmile:.


Benly then questioned this stating that Identifying a Moster (which is what Collector of Stories applies to) was not the same thing as Knowledge Devotion (which is its own skill check, seperate from Identifying a monster).

Rolling a knowledge check to identify a monster is not exactly the same thing as using knowledge devotion, I follow you that far. But I think we have an "a cow is an animal, but not all animals are cows"-situation. Rolling knowledge to identify is not using knowledge devotion, but using knowledge devotion is rolling knowledge to identify a monster (and using your findings to tactical combat advantage). It is, as I read it, a (let's say) subclass of rolling knowledge to identify you can gain access to once per encounter per creature type if you have the feat.


Some people complained that they were the same check, not different once.

The same check, yes, that is how I interpret it. I read the whole knowledge devotion thing as: 'once per encounter per creature type, you can use the knowledge you get from rolling a knowledge (abc) check to your advantage in combat: you get a +x/y/z bonus on attack and damage vs. that creature type for the remainder of the encounter'.

If you also have CoS, you can get a +5 on one single knowledge check to do this per encounter.

Now, if the DM wants you to roll the knowledge devotion separately I would feel that as unnecessarily complicated but I could live with that.


My point is simply that Knowledge Devotion can only be used once per creature type, where as a Identifying a Monster can be done once per monster on the field. If they were the same thing then Knowledge Devotion would have a different result per monster, not per creature type.

Yes. But they are not the same thing, not in that sense. Therefore:


Since this proves that they are not the same skill check then it also proves that Collector of Stories does not apply to Knowledge Devotion.

I don't follow you here, because we work from different base assumptions. I see where you are coming from, but I just do not agree. I interpret the abilities in a different way.

[Darth_Versity]

Meh. We agree to dissagree. I'll still use the method you use in actual play as its simpler, I just don't think its the RAW.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Meh. We agree to dissagree. <snip>

Agreed :smallwink:.

[Curmudgeon]

Okay, the issue depends on a particular reading of the Knowledge checks to identify and from the particular rules laid out in Knowledge Devotion's description. The theoretical situation I'm about to propose isn't a rhetorical trap or anything, I'm just trying to make clear what the different readings that lead to this are.

Suppose you had a PC who was in a fight with a wyvern. The PC's player asks to roll K: Arcana to identify the wyvern's abilities (per PHB, since wyverns are dragons). He makes his check and you proceed. Halfway through the fight, a green dragon appears. The PC's player wants to use Knowledge to find out what the green dragon's abilities are. Which of the following do you do?

1: The player rolls K: Arcana again, this time as a separate check to identify the creature because he is asking a different "question" and therefore needs a different check.
2: The player does not roll K: Arcana again; the previous check identifies how much he remembers about all kinds of dragons right now, so the results of the previous check are compared to the green dragon's DC.
3: The player does not roll K: Arcana again; he's gotten all he can from that skill this fight. He does not learn anything about green dragons.


Now, here's the reason for this question. I have always played it as 1, and every table I've played at has 1 - but it is possible (if not intuitive to me personally) to read it as 2, so I assume there may be tables out there where it's played at 2.

Knowledge Devotion explicitly uses method 2, as made clear in its example of use. Therefore, if you are from a table that uses method 1 for Knowledge checks, it seems "obvious" that Knowledge Devotion is a different check. If you have always used method 2, it may seem equally "obvious" that it is not. That is where all this confusion is coming from.
I see your confusion, but it arises from attempting to either completely conjoin or completely separate the single check (per type) restriction of Knowledge Devotion with the single check (per creature) restriction of Knowledge. These are the same check for the first instance of each creature type in an encounter, but not thereafter.

For every creature you may make a single Knowledge check; that may identify the creature's characteristics. But that check is also used for Knowledge Devotion if it's the first check for that type of creature in an encounter.

So in your scenario the answer is 1. for Knowledge and 2. for Knowledge Devotion.

[cagemarrow]

If you can afford another level dip Dragon Fire Adept 1 is great for this too. Choose the Draconic Knowledge invocation and get +6 to all knowledge checks as well as the ability to make checks untrained as if you were. In addition you get the dragon blood type and a weak fire breath weapon usable every round. :)

[kevindean]

In my opinion, education is really failing today. We should fight for our kids, for their future. If you click here (https://papersowl.com/blog/architecture-dissertation-topics) then maybe we can win. For the sake of our kids!

[Thurbane]

I'll present a couple of alternatives to the Education feat:

Able Learner feat (if you're human): while it won't increase your max cross-class skills ranks, it will allow you to buy Knowledge skill ranks on a 1-for-1 ratio. The benefit of this over Education, is that it works for ALL skills, so you can grab things like Autohypnosis, Iaijutsu Focus etc.

Codex Anathema (Lords of Madness): this magical tome, after it is used, imparts the reader with Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 2 ranks and Knowledge (the planes) 2 ranks. It also gives a +2 inherent bonus to Int, and inflicts a loss of 2 points of Wis. It's quite expensive (37,500hp), but if you're high enough level and can afford it, it's a way to grab some skill ranks without losing a feat. And a Warblade would always appreciate a boost to Int.

Just noticed the thread necro :smallconfused:

[Nifft]

In my opinion, education is really failing today. We should fight for our kids, for their future. If you click here (https://papersowl.com/blog/architecture-dissertation-topics) then maybe we can win. For the sake of our kids! This is a spam-bot performing necromancy in order to click-bait you into something... maybe a phishing site? Whatever it is, don't click and don't respond.


I'll present a couple of alternatives to the Education feat:

Able Learner feat (if you're human): while it won't increase your max cross-class skills ranks, it will allow you to buy Knowledge skill ranks on a 1-for-1 ratio. The benefit of this over Education, is that it works for ALL skills, so you can grab things like Autohypnosis, Iaijutsu Focus etc.

Codex Anathema (Lords of Madness): this magical tome, after it is used, imparts the reader with Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 2 ranks and Knowledge (the planes) 2 ranks. It also gives a +2 inherent bonus to Int, and inflicts a loss of 2 points of Wis. It's quite expensive (37,500hp), but if you're high enough level and can afford it, it's a way to grab some skill ranks without losing a feat. And a Warblade would always appreciate a boost to Int.

Just noticed the thread necro :smallconfused:

Yeah I was all excited to have an opinion on the thread's topic too. It's a good topic. :annoyed:

[Thurbane]

I think this thread needs to be locked, it keeps attracting spam bots who think we are interested in online education for some bizarre reason.