Core Only Arcane Trickster

[koboldish]

I am making a new character for a core only 3.5 campaign. The party is very small, and my character has to fill the roles of both rogue and mage. Is arcane trickster a viable option? Please post builds with both optimal stealth (and other skillmonkey stuff) and spellcasting. It would be much appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

[Roguenewb]

Yeah, its legit. Its not the most powerful option, but like most of the classes in the DMG, its a theurgy type mixing class. You need a three level hit to rogue, and you pick up 7d6 sneak attack on your wizard, and you get piles more skill points. Remember that some spells that allow attack rolls allow adding SA. Easiest Build:

Gray Elf (Int needs to hit 20)

Wizard 5 (Buying 4 ranks in Hide, MS, Escape Artist)/Rogue 1 (Spend 13 points to hit 8 in Hide, MS and 3 in Escape Artist and 2 in Disable Device)/Assassin 1 (9 ranks, putting 5 more in disable device)/Arcane Trickster 10/ Wizard 3.

You end up with 7d6 SA, and 9th level spells, not too shabby. In Core, Rogue/Assassin is the only way to double up on SA die to get in early. Death attack, eh. A couple of stupid spells, eh. It's just a front loaded SA die. See if you can get a DM to allow *avenger* in a core only game, as it's just assassin not limited to evil.

In combat, use magic to render foes flat-footed, through Invis, Illusions, Grease, whatever, then hit them with a ranged touch spell to get SA. Hell, with a level 1 grease, you can hit for 7d6 with Ray of Frost. If you hit with Scorching Ray, you're looking at 19d6, Enervation, 1d4 neg levels and 7d6 negative energy damage. Finally, something high level like Polar Ray is going to hit for 25d6. Silly stuff. Between magic and skill points nothing in the universe will be able to keep you out where you want to be.

Good luck dude.

Edit: If you can get away with using UA, because it's on the SRD, you can get the second SA with Sneak Attack Fighter, which will probably make life easier. Cause casters don't need skills like Disguise, and Disable Device.

[Flickerdart]

If you wanted to focus more on skills than spells you could enter it as Bard - Rogue 3/Bard 7/AT 10 gives you top level Bard spells, slightly more HP (9d6+10d4+6, avg 63, vs 17d4+2d6+4, avg 53), a fat stack of skill points, a better class list, freedom to pick a race and a more robust BAB - +12/+7/+2 as opposed to the Wizard build's +9/+4. If you want Inspire Courage +2 you can go Bard 8/Rogue 1/Assassin 1 instead, but you do lose a point of BAB.

Obviously not as powerful as 9th level Wizard spellcasting though, but when you have that, 7d6 SA is kind of pointless anyway.

[Larkas]

FWIW, here is the Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) Roguenewb talked about.

[koboldish]

Thanks! Feats? And what alternative in the PH should I use if my DM doesn't allow gray elves?

[Venusaur]

Another cool option is the Beguiler. It is a base class in the PHB2 that has rogue skills, and a spell list made up of Illusions and Enchantments. Also look for the Unseen Seer in the complete mage.

Edit: wow I missed the title

[koboldish]

The campaign is core only. I will look up the classes for another campaign though. The DM says no to gray elves:smallannoyed:.

[White_Drake]

Why not? Gray Elves are core (Monster Manual I), and with any elf, you're not exactly breaking the game.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why wouldn't a DM allow Gray Elves in a core only game. Otherwise you would have said, "PHB Races Only" not "Core Only" game, right?

[Eldariel]

Wizard 5 (Buying 4 ranks in Hide, MS, Escape Artist)/Rogue 1 (Spend 13 points to hit 8 in Hide, MS and 3 in Escape Artist and 2 in Disable Device)/Assassin 1 (9 ranks, putting 5 more in disable device)/Arcane Trickster 10/ Wizard 3.

Why would you ever take the first level in Wizard? First level in Rogue, get your 60 skill points including in-class Hide, MS, Escape Artist & co. and go from there. Cross-class skill cap is not affected by your current skills. If they're class skills once they're always class skills far as skill cap is concerned. Just use your 9 ranks on Assassin-level to level up the skills you need and cross-class the rest.

If you can't go Gray Elf, Human works decently also; they get the same number of skill points though they miss out on the Int-bonus for save DCs, spell slots and such. And they miss out on the Dex for your combat rolls, AC and stuff. But you do end up with more HP & carrying capacity at least.

[Flickerdart]

Halfling and Gnome would be good alternatives - while you don't care about Strength, the extra Dexterity (for to-hit on your rays) or Constitution (for your puny wizard hit points) is never wasted, and a sneaky trickster will find a good use for the gnome's many bonuses to stuff.

[nedz]

The party is very small, and my character has to fill the roles of both rogue and mage. Is arcane trickster a viable option?

What sort of mage are you trying to build ?

I ask because most people would look at synergies between rogues and mages and look to spell options which play to that.

[Eldariel]

But to be clear:
Human-or-Gray Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Whatever 3 (Archmage & Loremaster are the best options here, though Wizard works too) is a perfectly viable build and even non-Skill Bonus races can work (Gnome, Goblin or Halfling, as mentioned).

You aren't quite as powerful as a straight mage but you do have a decent skill list to make up for it. Don't forget to max out Use Magic Device. It's powerful. As a mage you need Spellcraft & Concentration and want Knowledge: Arcana and if you gotta handle traps, Disable Device and Search. Rest you're free to use however the hell you want; Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Gather Information & Intimidate are all great skills to max.

Forgery, Open Lock, etc. are probably worth a point too and Hide & Move Silently can be useful though you can mostly do that stuff with spells already. Of course, much depends on your stats; if you have high Wis or Cha you should obviously go for those skills as you'll be actually good at that stuff.

[ericgrau]

Generally you pick ranged touch spells, win initiative or cast greater invisibility or use impromptu sneak attack or cast grease at lower levels and sneak attack away. Get quicken spell as soon as you get 4th level spells to quicken damage cantrips and get double the sneak attack.

The prestige class is also good for disabling traps and opening potentially trapped locks from a safe distance. Your high int helps too.