[3.P + 3.5] So, I hear crusaders are fun.

[Karoht]

I have a friend imploring me to try a crusader in an upcoming Pathfinder/3.5 campaign.

First time with the class. Any tips or pointers? Stat recommendations? Items to keep an eye out for? Any weaknesses I should be extremely aware of and possibly work on?

I'm not looking to be optimized 100% but I don't want to be a slouch either.
Thoughts?

[Snowbluff]

Tips: Extra Granted Maneuver is a mush have. If going high optimization, check out Idiot Crusader.

Another good option is to dip 3-5 levels of bard, pick up Word of Creation, SOng of the White Raven and Song of the Heart. Bardsader! Focus on White Raven.

White Raven Tactics is too good. The White Raven Stance can pretty much make anyone a good melee. Also, keep in mind that you are your own ally.

Healing Strikes from Devoted Spirit are really good as well.

Stone Power is cool, too. Free temp HP + your damage pool = max toughness.

Stats: Con. So much Con. Str will help you dish out damage, but constitution will help you survive the heavy frontline work the crusader thrives on.

Weaknesses: Hitting things is important. Missing on a strike really sucks. Crusader builds can also end up rather feat starved.

[deuxhero]

FYI, Maneuver Cards (off WotC site) are greatly recommended for Crusader's refresh method

Ask the DM if you can use the Raptoran Fighter/Cleric ACF that trades heavy armor for flight in medium with a Crusader.

[Righteous Doggy]

White Raven Tactics is too good. The White Raven Stance can pretty much make anyone a good melee. Also, keep in mind that you are your own ally.

Warning, doing this may get a book thrown at you. A big one.

[deuxhero]

Or ToB being banned.

[Righteous Doggy]

Or ToB being banned.

Or worse, nerfed to a book thats probably one of the most fun and balanced.

[The Glyphstone]

Crusaders are pretty much moderately optimized out of the box, like the other ToB classes. Take Extra Granted Maneuver and you're good.

Melee area denial is one trick the Crusader can do quite well - get a Reach weapon and a handy-dandy Enlarge Person, stock up on Devoted Spirit maneuvers on top of the standard chain-tripper build, and you're pretty much a 20+ft. radius zone of No.

Also, http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0 - the closest thing ToB has to an errata, and it's fairly good. It patches a few big holes, like how the Crusader's stances don't line up, though it also nerfs White Raven Tactics a bit.

[Snowbluff]

Warning, doing this may get a book thrown at you. A big one.


Or ToB being banned.


Or worse, nerfed to a book thats probably one of the most fun and balanced.

Wargh! I was suggesting using WRT on yourself! I was talking about the stances! The Stances! :smalltongue:

[Righteous Doggy]

Wargh! I was suggesting using WRT on yourself! I was talking about the stances! The Stances! :smalltongue:

Careful how you word things, thats the second time you've done it! :smalltongue:

[Essence_of_War]

There is a pretty good Crusader Handbook in my sig. It can give you lots of neat ideas for feats, maneuvers, etc.

Couple things to keep in mind:
1) The crusader has a messed up stance progression. It has 3rd level stances (Thicket of Blades, pretty unreal) but it can't take it until 8th level because it gets stances known at 1,2,8...Ask your DM to fix this by adding a stance known at 5-6 rather than 8, or consider dipping a bit for your first 6 levels. Even something as simple as Fighter 6 w/ Dungeoncrasher ACF can be synergize really nicely with the Crusader!
2) Extra Granted Maneuver is fantastic. Take it. Don't look back.
3) You will, in all likelyhood, be extremely difficult to kill through straight hit point damage. Enjoy. :smalltongue:

As far as feats go, it's tough to go wrong with Stone Power, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and Power Attack. I'd highly recommend taking Thicket of Blades as a stance to go with those. Other than that, it's really hard to go wrong with just about any selection of maneuvers, but as I mentioned before, the handbook can guide you to some of the coolest options.

Edit:

Crusaders, like most melee options, get a lot of mileage out of two-handed weapons, although early on in their careers, sword n' board can be just dandy also.

Stat-wise, you'll really want to push Str/Con. You have a sort of "divine grace lite" and a smite class feature that makes Cha good too, and if you plan on doing any lockdown, having a non-10 dex is also good.

This feeds into your weaknesses. Your will save and reflex save will leave MUCH to be desired. Watch out for all the usual magical domination/charm/stun nonsense and consider investing in some way to cover this save. Similarly, expect to take full damage from ALL of the AoE stuff that enemy casters will sling at you. You'll have a ton of HP, but you're not going to be saving for half very often. I really like taking a 2 level warblade dip for Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, + 2 others to allow you to replace will save/reflex save with a concentration check at least 1/encounter. You get a class feature, Zealous Surge, that can also help, it's really better for negating natural 1s rather than really improving your saves.

[Particle_Man]

A fun multi-class is cleric/crusader/ruby knight vindicator (though if you don't have Wee Jas in your campaign you need to work with the DM for an appropriate God). Another might be Crusader/Eternal Blade (though that is more for Warblades). But going straight Crusader is fine too although you need a feat at level 18 or 15 to get the highest level stances.

Some of the Devoted Spirit maneuvers/stances are alignment specific, so you might want to look at them before picking your alignment. The Lawful stance is rather nifty. Note that a lot of Devoted Spirit abilities, like the smite class ability, works on any enemy that is not your exact alignment, which is nifty.

The Stone Power stuff only works when you are standing on the ground. Some of it only works if you are standing on the ground and not moving more than 5 feat. Just something to be aware of.

White Raven stuff is great for your friends.

There are two maneuvers that require shields to work. See if you like the maneuvers, before deciding on sword-and-board vs. 2-handed weapon.

The Smite ability is a minor thing. You might see if your DM will be very nice and modify it to be more in line with what Pathfinder Paladins can do with smite, but that would be an extra, not something to push for.

I suggest you get some cards (even playing cards, if you like) to shuffle to duplicate the "random" effect of the maneuvers.

There is a feat in PHB II that gives you an Aoo if your opponent doesn't move. Combine with Thicket of blades for an Aoo every round, if you like.

I would mention Factotum but then the DM would throw things at you. :smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

The Stone Power stuff only works when you are standing on the ground. Some of it only works if you are standing on the ground and not moving more than 5 feat. Just something to be aware of.


Stone power works whenever you hit something, or use a Stone Dragon maneuver, which is practically every round for a Crusader.



Stone Power
When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack rolls. This number cannot exceed your base attack bonus. You gain temporary hit points equal to twice the number that you subtract from your attack rolls (to a maximum of+10). These temporary hitpoints last until the beginning of your next turn.


Factotum+ToB isn't broken. It's basically a Factotum that can hit things better, get enemies Flat-Footed without leaping through rules loopholes, and have a built-in use for those Cunning Surge actions.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Stone power works whenever you hit something, or use a Stone Dragon maneuver, which is practically every round for a Crusader.

Except for when you're using a Devoted Spirit or White Raven strike. And it doesn't say it activates on a hit, if you miss, you still get the temp HP.

[Essence_of_War]

And it doesn't say it activates on a hit, if you miss, you still get the temp HP.

Exactly this. I've seen many people misread Stone Power and assume "it's just like power attack". It is not.

Protip: Use all of the time. :smalltongue:

[Slipperychicken]

Except for when you're using a Devoted Spirit or White Raven strike. And it doesn't say it activates on a hit, if you miss, you still get the temp HP.

Yeah, I meant "try to hit". The language on the feat is clear: you get the benefit whenever you "use an attack action" OR "full attack" OR "initiate a stone dragon maneuver". That's every time you swing, including as part of maneuvers. Most of those strikes from other disciplines specify that you make an attack as part of the strike, regardless.

[Evil the Cat]

Stone power works whenever you hit something, or use a Stone Dragon maneuver, which is practically every round for a Crusader.

Actually, it says you can use Stone Power with the attack action, the full attack action, or stone dragon strikes in melee combat. Stone Dragon maneuvers require you to be on the ground.

Since it specifically says the attack action, and not an attack, it becomes an issue.

Strikes aren't actually attack actions, and neither are AoOs, so there will be a lot of times where a crusader can't use this.

An attack, and an attack action are two different things.

[Karoht]

So if starting at level 1 and multiclassing a bit, you guys recommend cleric levels first, followed by Crusader?

How well does Paladin synergize? Again, this is a Pathfinder and 3.5 campaign, I have the choice of which version of the class I want. Any thoughts there?

If I were to start with Crusader, what level should I exit Crusader into the second class?

[Answerer]

Tips: Extra Granted Maneuver is a mush have. If going high optimization, check out Idiot Crusader.
Not true. Especially if you're at high levels, you have enough initially granted that you're not likely to blow through them all before a refresh anyway – in which case it's an almost-entirely wasted feat.

[2xMachina]

So if starting at level 1 and multiclassing a bit, you guys recommend cleric levels first, followed by Crusader?

How well does Paladin synergize? Again, this is a Pathfinder and 3.5 campaign, I have the choice of which version of the class I want. Any thoughts there?

If I were to start with Crusader, what level should I exit Crusader into the second class?

With ToB, I think entering the class at late as possible is the way to go. Since non initiator classes gives 1/2 Initiator lvl, delaying entry into crusader lets you net higher lvl maneuvers.

[Essence_of_War]

So if starting at level 1 and multiclassing a bit, you guys recommend cleric levels first, followed by Crusader?

What's your intended build? Are you trying to get into Ruby Knight Vindicator?

If so, I'd recommend deciding if you want to focus on maneuvers or spells. If you want to be a more powerful caster:
Cleric 4/Crusader1 is the preferred entry.
If you want more emphasis on the martial aspect, you might try:
Cleric2/Crusader3


How well does Paladin synergize? Again, this is a Pathfinder and 3.5 campaign, I have the choice of which version of the class I want. Any thoughts there?

It's depends. As a dip it isn't great since the divine-grace-lite class feature explicitly does not stack with the paladin's divine grace. As a caster/turning method to get into RKV it's reasonable. The Battle Blessing feat for paladin casting + Divine Impetus class feature of RKV is actually a pretty neat synergy.


If I were to start with Crusader, what level should I exit Crusader into the second class?

Again, it depends. If you want Stone Power early, you might like to do Crusader 1/Other Class X/Crusader 2.

What sort of build are you envisioning?

[Midnight_v]

Keeping in mind of course that crusaders are pretty much good enough on their own. I think the above poser is right. Crusader 1, X (in multiples of 2), Crusader X.
Just the way the IL progression goes.

[Answerer]

It's nice to delay the first level of any initiating class, because you start with more-than-one Maneuvers Known. I.e. a Something 4/Crusader 1 can choose 5 second-level maneuvers, rather than first-level maneuvers. This is nice.

[Essence_of_War]

It's nice to delay the first level of any initiating class, because you start with more-than-one Maneuvers Known. I.e. a Something 4/Crusader 1 can choose 5 second-level maneuvers, rather than first-level maneuvers. This is nice.


The reason that I suggest starting with Crusader is because one of the pre-reqs for Stone Power is that you need to have 1 SD maneuver, and Stone Power gets the most benefit when you're able to use it at low->mid levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to suggest another class option, inquisitor.

Break off points at 2,4,5(with other dip)6,8, or 10.

Can't RKV, due to no turn undead (unless you duck out at 5, dip cleric and RKV all day long, but still.

The judgement will make you even harder to kill. Fast healing 1 on an already tough frame will be virtually unkillable at low levels. Add in some divine spells for self healing and you will not go down. Free domain as well. Trade it for travel devotion.

I would go Crusader 1 / inquisitor 5 / cleric 1 / RKV. Bane is really nice. Outflank will be a nice teamwork feat to boost to hit, or Shake it off to boost saves.

[Tyndmyr]

I have a friend imploring me to try a crusader in an upcoming Pathfinder/3.5 campaign.

First time with the class. Any tips or pointers? Stat recommendations? Items to keep an eye out for? Any weaknesses I should be extremely aware of and possibly work on?

I'm not looking to be optimized 100% but I don't want to be a slouch either.
Thoughts?

It's pretty solid. Especially early on, you really can't jack it up too badly. Provided you use a 2h weapon, it's not even feat dependent, so sort out your PrC goals early on, and prep for that.

Stone Power really is pretty awesome. You can be an all-day dealer of death with that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm a big fan of using Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) with the Heart aspect and taking the feat Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon. Use your breath attack as often as possible to keep as many opponents entangled as you can, the debuff will give your party a huge advantage and it will give opponents a reason to focus attacks on your tanky character. Often a Crusader finds himself without one of his favorite strikes available, and the breath attack gives you something to do when that happens.

For gear, you want to get a weapon with the Wrathful Healing property from Enemies and Allies (page 20, sidebar). It costs a +2 and makes it so every time you deal damage with it, you're healed for an equal amount, which includes Str bonus, Power Attack, extra dice from strikes, etc.

Extra Granted Maneuver has already been mentioned a few times, Shield Specialization and Shield Ward (PH2) are useful since you have some nice shield-dependent maneuvers anyway. If you use a psionic race or get Wild/Hidden Talent or Warped Mind, Deflective Armor (RoS) is extremely good. Extra Smiting (CW) is actually pretty nice for more uses of your Smite Everyone.

[navar100]

1) Write down the maneuvers on index cards. Just name, summary, and page number for reference is fine. Use them to shuffle and draw to represent the recovery mechanism.

2) Unless you don't mind spending a feat for a stance, multi-class two levels before you reach Crusader level 8. Otherwise your stance progression will always be one level too soon before an available stance. Best to mutliclass warblade or swordsage. You still need to spend a feat for a 3rd level stance and/or 6th level stance. This makes more sense upon reading and understanding the book.

3) Extra Granted Maneuver is worth it. You recover maneuvers every three rounds instead of four. It makes a difference. I'm partial to the feat Vital Recovery. It's like a free Potion of Cure Light Wounds every combat, Cure Moderate Wounds at mid levels. It helps to mitigate Steely Resolve when you aren't using a Devoted Spirit healing strike.

4) Crusaders have cool stances in Devoted Spirit. Iron Guard's Glare is an excellent party buffer at low level and still useful later. Thicket of Blades is a popular one on these boards for area control. My favorite is Aura of Perfect Order. An automatic 11 on a d20 is tremendous. Auto-make a save or auto-hit on a strike maneuver. Immortal Fortitude is good for high level play.

5) There are three maneuvers in White Raven you want when available. Always take them: White Raven Tactics, Order Forged From Chaos, White Raven Hammer. Just take them.

[Karoht]

Honestly? My plan is to basically be a self-healing invincible 2-handed melee smasher of doom. Possible Vampiric weapon involved as well. Highly self-reliant, with a party as a means to an end. Considering playing an evil alignment. Haven't put much more thought into it than that, but the research directions I've been given have been great.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Honestly? My plan is to basically be a self-healing invincible 2-handed melee smasher of doom. Possible Vampiric weapon involved as well. Highly self-reliant, with a party as a means to an end. Considering playing an evil alignment. Haven't put much more thought into it than that, but the research directions I've been given have been great.

Wrathful Healing weapon property, Enemies and Allies page 20. Costs a +2, you're healed for every point of damage the weapon deals.

[Karoht]

Wrathful Healing weapon property, Enemies and Allies page 20. Costs a +2, you're healed for every point of damage the weapon deals.I will double verify that this is a permitted sourcebook for the campaign, and totally do that.

[Answerer]

Unfortunately, Evil Crusaders miss out on a few of the healing maneuvers; you might ask your DM if you can wiggle around that.

[Righteous Doggy]

Unfortunately, Evil Crusaders miss out on a few of the healing maneuvers; you might ask your DM if you can wiggle around that.

Well, from what I read theres only one thing you miss, and thats a stance. You have either an Aura of Triumph and Tyranny and the Tyranny one looks horrendously bad... and theres a doom/radiant charge that are almost identicle. Just ask to remove the alignment restrictions for you and/or target and it'll help alot.

[Karoht]

Great, more stuff to look into.
D20srd, here I come.

[Iferus]

You should pick up a few of those sweet healing weapon crystals. Just forget AC, take the damage and heal while attacking with your insane to hit bonus!

[Slipperychicken]

Wrathful Healing weapon property, Enemies and Allies page 20. Costs a +2, you're healed for every point of damage the weapon deals.

It heals half of the damage it deals to creatures, and costs +3. It also specifies positive energy. It's quite good for bruisers, especially Frenzied Berserkers.



Wrathful Healing:

This enchantment can only be placed on a melee weapon, creating positive energy that flows to its wielder. When the weapon deals damage to a creature, the wielder heals a number of hit points equal to half the damage dealt. If the wielder already has full hit points, there is no effect. Because the weapon channels positive energy, it damages an undead wielder instead.

Caster Level: 15th; Prerequisites:
Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, regenerate; Market Price:
+3 bonus.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It heals half of the damage it deals to creatures, and costs +3. It also specifies positive energy. It's quite good for bruisers, especially Frenzied Berserkers.

You're right, I was just going from memory. I did know it was in a hard to find sidebar, though! Its biggest selling point is that most vampiric weapon effects only count the weapon's base damage, whereas Wrathful Healing counts your total damage dealt per hit.

[Slipperychicken]

You're right, I was just going from memory. I did know it was in a hard to find sidebar, though! Its biggest selling point is that most vampiric weapon effects only count the weapon's base damage, whereas Wrathful Healing counts your total damage dealt per hit.

No problem, we all make mistakes (hell, even me in this very thread). I really see it paying off in those slugfests where you and your opponent are just dealing melee damage to each other, and it turns into a war of hp-attrition. Or whenever you have to wade through little guys and don't want them slowly wearing you down.

[Particle_Man]

Honestly? My plan is to basically be a self-healing invincible 2-handed melee smasher of doom. Possible Vampiric weapon involved as well. Highly self-reliant, with a party as a means to an end. Considering playing an evil alignment. Haven't put much more thought into it than that, but the research directions I've been given have been great.

It might help in that case to know what is the end to which your party is a means.

[Psyren]

Honestly? My plan is to basically be a self-healing invincible 2-handed melee smasher of doom. Possible Vampiric weapon involved as well. Highly self-reliant, with a party as a means to an end. Considering playing an evil alignment. Haven't put much more thought into it than that, but the research directions I've been given have been great.

You're better off being good imo. Monsters tend to be evil, which means you get insane bonuses from the good maneuvers, and the healy stuff tends to be good too. You can be a total badass without kicking puppies.

[Karoht]

You're better off being good imo. Monsters tend to be evil, which means you get insane bonuses from the good maneuvers, and the healy stuff tends to be good too. You can be a total badass without kicking puppies.I'm almost always a good alignment, or neutral. This was probably going to be one of my first forays into an evil alignment in any serious way. The hard as nails motif was working really well with a brand of evil I liked. Not the kick puppies evil either.

If being good will grant me better bonuses, I think I'll stick with that then.


It might help in that case to know what is the end to which your party is a means.Means to an end in that there are just some things this guy can't do by himself.


========
So I had a word with the DM, who is more familiar with the Crusader than I am. He was saying that if I go White Raven I will want Charisma. For that reason he feels that Paladin makes a better secondary class choice as opposed to Cleric, but I'll have to check that out. He was also making a very strong case for me to go Ruby Knight Vindicator. So yes, more research. Yay.

[The Glyphstone]

You don't need Charisma for White Raven maneuvers at all - the only relation WR has to Charisma is having Diplomacy as its keystone skill, and even that's mostly irrelevant unless you use the Tactical feat.

[Slipperychicken]

You don't need Charisma for White Raven maneuvers at all - the only relation WR has to Charisma is having Diplomacy as its keystone skill, and even that's mostly irrelevant unless you use the Tactical feat.

This. Unless you're really building around the (very few) maneuvers which require saves, Charisma is not a priority, but it's nice to have a 12 if you can afford it. You can freely dump Wisdom. Also, the Crusader's Cha to Will explicitly doesn't stack with Paladin's Divine Grace.

If you wind up taking levels in a casting class, Rhino's Rush + Leap Attack Charge makes for a nasty opener. Just don't go too far down the charger route :smallbiggrin:

[Karoht]

Yeah, I've never been a major fan of chargers. Especially mounted. Just not my thing.

[The Glyphstone]

I had a post, but then the forum eated it.

short version: Evil crusader works if you pick the right kind of evil. Healing maneuvers only fizzle against identical alignments, so Lawful Evil Crusader can't heal vs. Lawful Evil enemies.