Suggested Bard Optimization

[Frank N. Stein]

I've been playing a pure bard since I began playing Dungeons and Dragons, and have been looking for a bit of variety since level five. I really like the bardic spells, but our campaigns are almost always of the hack-and-slash variety, so they don’t fit in as well as the quickened, empowered Elemental Ruptures the party wizard can rattle off. Spells like grease and glibness are fantastic in concept, but aren’t used often in our campaign, if at all. I’d like a bard who has offensive spells, as well as buffers, but can also hold his own in a hand to hand battle with a decent BAB, and saves. If I’m asking for an impossible combo, let me know. I’m hoping for a progression to twentieth level, but however far you can get, I’ll be glad for it. :smallsmile:

Thanks!

[ChaosLord29]

Well, it doesn't exactly mean being able to stand up in combat, toe to toe, but if you grab weapon finesse, a decent Dexterity score an start using a whip, you can trip or disarm your opponents with reach all day long.

Truth be told, you're just not going to be able to optimize a Bard for melee combat, and you're going to have to take the hit somewhere. Multiclass fighter or rogue for more survivability or damage output respectively, but you sacrifice your arcane spellcasting ability (there's potential there for an Arcane Trickster though).

[Lostbutseeking]

Simple enough really

Bard 8 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime chord 2 / Virtuoso 8

With Dragon fire inspiration and IC optimisation to flavor.

Alternatively Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime chord 2 / Virtuoso 8

Which can grab wraith strike.

At the cost of spellcasting for melee power - a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion barbarian 1 dip offers significant improvements.

[Morph Bark]

Depends on what you got skill-wise so far. For making Inspire Courage even better, there is Heartfire Fanner. You could also take a level in Mindbender.

[Frank N. Stein]

Hmmm... Great ideas so far. I probably should've provided more information on my character. :smallfrown: I recently LOST my character sheet, but because I'm revamping my character, I should be fine until we set up another session. Just to shorten the post a bit, I've put a spoiler up:
Jebeddo Scheppen Doublelock, Neutral Good Gnome
Ability Scores: (at twelfth level, no item bonuses)
STR:11
CON:14
DEX:13
INT:14
WIS:8
CHA:19

I rolled terrible base stats to start out with... I've maxed out Charisma so far.
For skills, I'm maxing Bluff, Diplomacy, Listen, Sense Motive, Tumble, and Perform: String Instruments

As for stat boosting items, I have a +4 Periapt of Wisdom, and a +4 Ring of Constitution.

The Heartfire Fanner looks very interesting, but I'm not sure if our DM will allow Drag Mag classes. By 'Hold his own in a battle' I meant 'have a decent enough Base Attack Bonus, so that it's plausible for him to even try attacking it'. Unfortunately, when in combat, I often find myself being targeted by the monsters that are a bit tougher to kill, because I'm giving my fellow party members a massive bonus with my Inspire Courage. I have a few whips in mind that I've been itching to use though... :smallbiggrin: If you wouldn't mind posting the strengths and weaknesses of the build you suggest, I'd be terribly grateful. I'm making charts of several options so I can pick the best suited! Thanks for the help so far! :smallsmile:

[Gandariel]

Check Slippers of Battledancing, Snowflake Wardance, and a lot of Dragonfire Inspiration!
Also yeah, Sublime chord is the to-go way to get actual useful spells

[gorfnab]

A gish based Bard might give you some more options for combat. Something like Bard 8/ Paladin 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 3 or Bard 6/ Warblade or Crusader 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8.

[Dexam]

The Heartfire Fanner looks very interesting, but I'm not sure if our DM will allow Drag Mag classes. By 'Hold his own in a battle' I meant 'have a decent enough Base Attack Bonus, so that it's plausible for him to even try attacking it'.
Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn is your friend here - you'll need ranks in Perform (Dance), however. By expending a use of your Bardic Music, you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with one-handed slashing weapons for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Perform (Dance). Downsides are that you can't use a shield with this feat, and you're fatigued for 10 minutes after use (a wand of Lesser Restoration is one way to overcome this problem).

Also, have a look at the Crystal Echoblade in Magic Item Compendium. It's a +1 Longsword that adds half your bard level as sonic damage whenever you're using Bardic Music. The weapon can also be further enhanced.


Unfortunately, when in combat, I often find myself being targeted by the monsters that are a bit tougher to kill, because I'm giving my fellow party members a massive bonus with my Inspire Courage. I have a few whips in mind that I've been itching to use though... :smallbiggrin: If you wouldn't mind posting the strengths and weaknesses of the build you suggest, I'd be terribly grateful. I'm making charts of several options so I can pick the best suited! Thanks for the help so far! :smallsmile:
Greater Mirror Image spell from Players Handbook II is your friend here. A 4th level Bard spell, it's like Mirror Image but it's an immediate action to cast, and will add one image per round up to a maximum of 8 images.

I might also suggest the Melodic Casting feat from Complete Mage. This will allow you to cast spells (and use scrolls and staffs, but not wands) while maintaining your Inspire Courage - buff your allies while you buff your allies!

Some good Bard "combat" spell choices:
- Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium: a 1st level spell that will add +1 to your Inspire Courage.
- Improvisation from Spell Compendium: a 1st level spell that gives you a "luck pool" equal to twice your caster level; the luck pool can be spent at a rate of half your caster level on skill checks, ability checks, and attack rolls (e.g. at level 12 your luck pool is 24, which means you could add +6 to four separate attacks over 4 rounds).
- Grease from PHB: cast under foes to make them prone and flat-footed, or cast on their weapons to disarm them.
- Glitterdust from PHB: negate invisibility and blind your foes? Yes please!
- Haste from PHB: +1 to attack rolls and Ref saves, increased movement speed, and an extra attack at the highest attack bonus... for all of the party.
- Slow from PHB: reducing attackers options is always handy.
- Ray of Dizziness from Spell Compendium: like Slow, but no saving throw. However it only affects a single target, and is Mind Effecting.

[Togo]

A lot depends on what you're looking for.

Staying with bard means you get 5th and 6th level spells, more inspire courage, inspire greatness, and mass suggestion. That's a nice lot of abilities, and almost any p-class will involve leaving them behind. If you want to stick with it, then you're really looking for items, spells and feats. I'd recommend snowflake wardance, the regalia of the hero (MiC 207-208), and some of kind of harmonising weapon. Also, if you're looking to defence, miss chance is your friend. A cloak of discplacement, mirror image greater, and greater blink are all good effects that stop monsters hitting you quite so often. Or get some kind of short range teleport like anklets of translocation, and at least make the monsters pay for closing in on you. Bear in mind though that these will probably make you competant and less vulnerable in combat, you'll still be second to straight melee builds in terms of damage, just as your spells are second to straight spellcasters. Your strength lies in save-or-suck effects, buff, debuff and the ability to fill any role in a pinch.

If you want to stop being a bard..., then the question is what you want to be. Sublime chord gives you wizard spells, and is probably the best spellcasting option. If you want to do damage in combat, then you need to leverage the inspire courage you've already got, and go for multiple attacks. Bizzare though it may sound, I'd suggest either master thrower (Complete warrior), or chamelon (races of destiny).

Master thrower means you specialise in thrown dagger attacks, and you'll eventually get many many attacks a round, all of which get your inspire courage bonus. It's hard to qualify for though.

Chamelon offers the same flexbility as the bard, but in a very different way. You'll get more strange spells, a combat bonus and some odd abilties - just not all at the same time.

Personally, I'd stick with bard and try and get some better spells. You'll struggle to compete on damage with melee characters, and at spellcasting with straight wizards, particularly in the next few levels, but with your charisma you should be getting some decent save DCs, so some mind controlling spellcasting, and some debuff spells, should see you rise in effectiveness with your own niche. You're about to get access to bolts of devilment, body harmonic, and greater blink, all of which are pretty nasty, particularly body harmonic, which can end fights in a round.

I'd also have a look at harmonise, greater (races of stone). This spell allows you to start bardsongs as a move action, so you don't have to spend your whole first round of every combat inspiring courage, which gets dull pretty fast. Combine that with a few swift spells or bardic feats, and you should be getting three actions a round - Spell as standard action, bardsong as move action, and spell or effect or item as swift action.

[Malroth]

Dragonfire inspiration + Knowledge devotion+ Master Thrower = FUN

[Frank N. Stein]

Again, great suggestions! Thanks to everybody who has posted so far! I’ve just reached twelfth level with this character, so I won’t be getting to level 13 any time soon. Fortunately, I’ve already begun collecting parts of Regalia of the Hero, and have two pieces. Togo, thank you SO MUCH for telling me about Greater Harmonize. I already have a sword that allows me to start up my music as a free action, but it has such terrible attack and damage, I never bother attacking with it. Thanks for the spell suggestions, everyone! They’re as useful as the progression tables. If you have any more ideas, feel free to put ‘em up here. I’ve got my work cut out for me for a while, making progression tables. I’ll let you guys/girls know which build I pick! :smallbiggrin:

[Lostbutseeking]

How about a Bard/Sublime Chord/Shadow Dancer/Ur-Priest/Fochlucan Lyrist

Fochlucan Lyrist builds have the habit of being all but unplayable until very high levels, that one more so than most due to using Shadow Dancer to get evasion.

[Frank N. Stein]

I actually have a 12 level build (humbly named The Alternative Hero-Bard of Awesomeness) which takes this path: Devoted Evoker 5/Druid 1/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 3/ Fochlucan Lyrist 2 (and up). It lets you get into the Lyrist at tenth level, and gives you four spell lists to choose from. On the downside, most of the highest level spells I can get from such lists are hovering around the 3rd level range (on average). If I use the two levels of arcane spell progression from the Lyrist, I can cast up to seventh level spells, thanks to the Sublime Chord. Now tell me, is that a pretty good setup, or are there better? The Alternative Hero-Bard of Awesomeness build is pretty high up on my list, but I still haven't made all of the builds that you guys have suggested. LostButSeeking, I'm working on both of yours as we speak... or type, rather. :smallwink:

[Aeryr]

Alternatively Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime chord 2 / Virtuoso 8


I encourage this.

Or if you are going to focus on melee combat, disregarding spells.

Stalwart battle sorcerer 1 / Bard 3 / Warblade 2 / Warchanter 5 / Seeker of the song 2 / Warchanter +5 / Any bard prc that you like + 2

With the following feats

Dragon heritage (piroclastic), weapon focus (this is free from the sorcerer level), dragonfire inspiration, combat expertise (to be able to access warchanter), skill focus (perform [any]), song of the white raven (to start bardic songs as a swift action), song of the heart (to increase the efectivity of your songs), lingering song (to increase the songs duration)

At level 12 you can keep two songs at once, and initiate them as swift actions. You can use two dragonfire inspirations (adding fire and sonic damage) at once. At level 13 you will be able to keep three songs at the same time, so you can add inspire courage to the mix, at level 18 you can use inspire legion instead, to give everyone a huge attack bonus, and a huge increase to damage.

Being human, or using flaws, pushes the feats up for more awesomeness. The last 7 levels are not really necessary and can be substituted with any bard prc that you like.

Get a best of legends, a badge of valor and cast inspirational bost and at level 12 you can deal +4d6 Fire damage and +4d6 Sonic damage, and so can everyone in your party. Alternatively you can go for +4 to attack and +4d6 +4 sonic damage. At level 13 you don't even have to choose, +4 to attack, +4D6 fire, +4D6 sonic, +4 to damage. As a bonus you have better BAB than most bards, but your spells are a lot worse.

[Lostbutseeking]

Now tell me, is that a pretty good setup, or are there better? The Alternative Hero-Bard of Awesomeness build is pretty high up on my list, but I still haven't made all of the builds that you guys have suggested. LostButSeeking, I'm working on both of yours as we speak... or type, rather. :smallwink:

It's an invalid build as you are unanable to enter Sublime Chord before your 11th level due to it's skill requirements.

This is the Fochlucan Lyrist resource: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

What Angus was suggesting is a form of the Ur-Sublime Lyrist, done well this is probably the strongest way to use the Fochlucan Lyrist. To get the most out of it you will need to get evasion without class levels. This means either the DM letting you use a ring of evasion to qualify or using Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open least chakra. The shadow template also works if LA buyoff is allowed. Having done that you do something like this Bard 6 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 8. The level of Mindbender isn't strictly needed, any Prc that favors the Fort save will do, Mindbender opens up Mindsight however which is awesome. The last level of bard can be something else as well so long as it has the needed skills as class skills ( and you get at least 7 levels of bard casting before 11).

The Savage Bard variant makes qualifying for Ur-Priest easier as well by giving you a strong fort save.

[Morph Bark]

It's an invalid build as you are unanable to enter Sublime Chord before your 11th level due to it's skill requirements.

This is the Fochlucan Lyrist resource: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872158/Tools_for_Fochlucan_Lyrist_Builds

What Angus was suggesting is a form of the Ur-Sublime Lyrist, done well this is probably the strongest way to use the Fochlucan Lyrist. To get the most out of it you will need to get evasion without class levels. This means either the DM letting you use a ring of evasion to qualify or using Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open least chakra. The shadow template also works if LA buyoff is allowed. Having done that you do something like this Bard 6 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Bard 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 8. The level of Mindbender isn't strictly needed, any Prc that favors the Fort save will do, Mindbender opens up Mindsight however which is awesome. The last level of bard can be something else as well so long as it has the needed skills as class skills ( and you get at least 7 levels of bard casting before 11).

The Savage Bard variant makes qualifying for Ur-Priest easier as well by giving you a strong fort save.

The last Bard level can be switched for Warblade, netting you White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge or some nifty Diamond Mind maneuvers. It might be better to switch the Mindbender level for Warblade though, so that at level 20 you end up with BAB+16, but you won't get WRT or IHS, unless you take Savage Bard so you can still take Warblade at level 9 instead of before Ur-Priest.

If you get DMM: Persist and Snowflake Wardance or Song of the White Raven, you will definitely be a one-man party. All that it's lacking from the typical set-up's abilities is trapfinding and Sneak Attack, which you can get via spells anyway. The build is also pretty viable across all levels.

[Lostbutseeking]

Unless you are using once a class skill always a class skill or something to that effect your 10th level class must have have Knowledge Arcana & Listen on it's skill list and might well require Perform as well.

Bard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Warblade 1 / Bard 1 / Sublime chord 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 8 works however, you just have to use Savage Bard to meet the save requirement on Ur-Priest. That and you will need 16 int (14 if you're human) to meet the skill requirements.

When you take Warblade at 9 you can immediately grab Song of the White Raven for your feat, take Bolstering Voice for your stance, White Raven Tactics, Wall of Blades and Iron Heart Surge for manuevers.

BAB really shouldnt be much of a concern - you can just persist divine power and be done with it or just ignore it and spend your actions casting - you have dual 9ths at 19 afterall. Mindsight on the otherhand is irreplaceable and much more powerful.

[Frank N. Stein]

Sounds great, but... The alignment prerequisite for Ur-Priest is Evil. Even if my DM allowed me to bypass that, I'd still have to meet the requirements for Malign Spell Focus, which also requires you to be evil.:smallfrown: The entire essence of Ur-Priest is bad. Perhaps if I was a Good Ur-Priest, I would only suck divine essence from evil gods... But then I'd still get evil powers. It's kinda a lose-lose situation. I can't find the shadow template that somebody suggested. If someone could lead me to a site with it on there, or the title of the book it's in, it'd help loads. I'm trying to keep my ring slots open, and our campaign is fairly opposed to psionics. I don't know if I'd be able to get the Impulse Boots for that reason. I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I'm completely new with most of the classes some of you are suggesting (Mindbender, for example)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Sounds great, but... The alignment prerequisite for Ur-Priest is Evil. Even if my DM allowed me to bypass that, I'd still have to meet the requirements for Malign Spell Focus, which also requires you to be evil.:smallfrown: The entire essence of Ur-Priest is bad. Perhaps if I was a Good Ur-Priest, I would only suck divine essence from evil gods... But then I'd still get evil powers. It's kinda a lose-lose situation. I can't find the shadow template that somebody suggested. If someone could lead me to a site with it on there, or the title of the book it's in, it'd help loads. I'm trying to keep my ring slots open, and our campaign is fairly opposed to psionics. I don't know if I'd be able to get the Impulse Boots for that reason. I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I'm completely new with most of the classes some of you are suggesting (Mindbender, for example)

Shadow is either from Manual of the Planes or the Planar Handbook (both 3.0).

Have you looked at the Adaptation for the Ur-Priest? There's an entire little blurb about alternate fluffs; from worshiping a dead/fallen god, or elevating something non-divine to a god.

Impulse Boots isn't psionics - it's a different subsystem called Incarnum from the book Magic of Incarnum.

[Lostbutseeking]

Shadow creature is a template from Lords of Madness (pg 167).
Impulse boots are a soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum, which is not Psionics, it's an entirely seperate system based on making 'items' from the matter of souls.
Mindbender is from Complete Arcane (pg 54).

The Ur-Sublime Lyrist is restricted to Neutral Evil for aligntment - Ur-Priest requires evil while Fochluchan Lyrist requires a neutral component. If you wan't to be good it's not a build for you. It's also not a build I recommend unless you are starting at a high level.

[White_Drake]

Isn't Dark Creature (from Tome of Magic) a superior streamlined version of that?

[Frank N. Stein]

Well, since my character suddenly becoming inexplicably evil wouldn't go over very well with the party... I'll scrap the Sublime Ur-Lyrist build until I can find alternative fluff, or just get it approved by our DM. Kuulvheysoon, if you could remember the book you saw the adaption for the Ur-Priest, it'd definitely help move things along. It's a great setup, but it's just the fluffing that needs reworking. If I can't get it refluffed, I might go with Aeryr's build, or Lostbutseeking's, although that doesn't mean it's set in stone. If anybody else feels like making up a bard optimization, go ahead, try it out.

While I'm still typing, does anybody have any magic items they feel are worth taking a look at? It could pertain to bards, but it doesn't have to. Post the stats along with it, if you're up to it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Unless you are using once a class skill always a class skill or something to that effect your 10th level class must have have Knowledge Arcana & Listen on it's skill list and might well require Perform as well.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm

"If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) "

You would have to pay 2 skill points per rank if it wasn't on your class list at that particular level, but you most certainly can keep the ranks maxed out to level +3 on those levels.

[Lostbutseeking]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm

"If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) "

You would have to pay 2 skill points per rank if it wasn't on your class list at that particular level, but you most certainly can keep the ranks maxed out to level +3 on those levels.

You would be amazed at how much of an idiot I feel like right now. Not that it helps with the Ur-Sublime Lyrist - you just can't afford to be buying skills at 2 points a rank.

@white drake, apart from being native to the plane of shadow and having some abilities that are impeded by daylight the two templates don't really have much in common.

Item wise most everything is in MIC; the Vest of Legends, Badge of Valor, Crystal echoblade and the Harmonizing enchantment. The badge is the most important of them by a long way.

Then add a masterwork instrument from Song and Silence. ( preferably a horn) and eventually the Slippers of Battledancing from the DMG2.

[Invader]

Simple enough really

Bard 8 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime chord 2 / Virtuoso 8

With Dragon fire inspiration and IC optimisation to flavor.

Alternatively Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime chord 2 / Virtuoso 8

Which can grab wraith strike.

At the cost of spellcasting for melee power - a Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion barbarian 1 dip offers significant improvements.

How does virtuoso help out with a melee focused bard? I'm not really familiar with bards because I've never played one, I just looked a the Prc and it looked kind of underwhelming to me. Is there some mechanic I'm just over looking?

I've also seen this mentioned in quite a few bard builds Dragon fire inspiration but I've never actually looked it up.

[Lostbutseeking]

Virtuoso isn't there for melee capability, it's there for spell casting. The power of it lies in that it improves Bardic Music ( well uses per day and IC bonus only) as well as any existing spellcasting class ( except on it's first level ). Which means you can use it to progress Sublime Chord spellcasting without gimping music progression.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Kuulvheysoon, if you could remember the book you saw the adaption for the Ur-Priest, it'd definitely help move things along. It's a great setup, but it's just the fluffing that needs reworking. If I can't get it refluffed, I might go with Aeryr's build, or Lostbutseeking's, although that doesn't mean it's set in stone. If anybody else feels like making up a bard optimization, go ahead, try it out.

It's in Complete Divine, directly underneath the original class description, right above the prerequisites.

A fair trade for Spell Focus (Evil) would likely be something along the lines of Heretic of the Faith (Lost Empires of Faerun) or True Believer (refusing to accept the god's death).

True Believer would probably fly better, as it's exchanging a mechanically weaker feat for deliberately 'misinterpreting' the class.

[Frank N. Stein]

As I've been looking at the suggested classes more in depth, I'm finding that some I really don't like, the Virtuoso for example. Sure, they get a bunch of songs that can create various magical effects, but some of them are pretty cruddy. Calumny? I honestly can't think of a time when I would ever need to use it. Sharp note would be useful, if only it were at a greater range. The ones that are fairly effective come at the cost of ridiculously high Performance Points, like Revealing Melody. There are a few classes that are really cool though, like the Heartfire Fanner. Yes, I know, it's Drag Mag content, but it's still a very cool idea, and could be very useful in combat. Another one of my favorites is the Ur-Priest. Facing one immensely powerful enemy just got so much easier. :smallamused: I know a certain group of people who should get very nervous if I can use it, eh White_Drake? :smallbiggrin: Virtuoso seems to me like a filler PrC, just there for the spells... Not a big battle changer, per say.