Big Bad Villain Showdown

[ChaosLord29]

Okay, trying my hand at a VS thread and would like to do it right the first time. Fortunately, this is something my various circles of friends have been bandying back and forth for a while on and I have a wealth of information to draw upon for setting the stage.

The matchup is simplicity itself, the major villain of two all time fantasy, science fiction classics:

In the Fantasy corner, representing the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, weighing in as one of the most legendary spellslingers of all time, the wizard-who-must-not-be-named, the Dark Lord himself . . .
Voldemort!

And in the Sci-fi corner, a living legend of the Dark Side, the Betrayer of the Jedi, the Champion of the Sith, and one of the baddest bads of a galaxy far far away . . .
Darth Vader!

I've got more than a few die hard Star Wars fans for friends, and even a few people who read the Harry Potter series before they saw Star Wars, so there's plenty of partisan support for both sides. I like to think that I'm unbiased, but I have to admit that (subjectively) I think Vader is a much cooler villain, but that doesn't necessarily mean a thing in a duel between the two of them.

I'd like to hear from both sides, but some ground rules need to be laid out to keep things fair. If you're going to ignore one of these for the sake of discussion, make it clear in your post and make sure it's still relevant.

1) Assume both characters to be at the height of their power.


Vader as Dark Lord of the Sith under Palpatine, following the Jedi Purge.
Reincarnated Voldemort, with his original wand.



2) At no time are any "Macguffins" or other story necessary elements in play, i.e. Vader will not have a change of heart in the middle of the battle because he misses his kids, Voldemort's wand will not backfire, nor does Vader have to be the Chosen One to defeat Voldemort (Though technically speaking, he is . . .)

3) No surprise rounds; both combatants are assumed to be aware of one another at the start of the fight and begin 10 paces apart (about 25 feet, standard duel distance, even for Wizards apparently).

4) This isn't necessarily about either party killing the other. Just 'winning' the duel. I've heard too many time from the Potter fans that Voldemort is unkillable, due to twists of fate, the horcruxes, etc. etc. For the sake of this duel, let's assume the Horcruxes, even if they keep Voldemort 'alive' will not stop Vader from lopping his limbs off with a lightsaber. The duel ends when one party is decidedly unable from continuing to fight.

5) Finally, for the sake of argument and a fair playing field, let's assume that 'Magic' and 'The Force' can more or less affect one another. There's plenty of literature in the Star Wars expanded universe that the Force understood differently by different practioners, is commonly referred to as 'magic' and can accomplish many strange and otherwise thought to be impossible things by the Jedi and Sith. Magic in the Harry Potter universe is not limited simply to wands and spells and it's evident that a wizard need not speak his spell, and for many other creatures the use of a wand is not necessary. For our duel, Magic and the Force are assumed to be two sides of the same coin.

If you think any of these rules are unfair or unreasonable or without basis, say so, and we'll consider amending them.

Like I said before, my friends and I have had plenty of fun discussing this fight one way or another and while I don't expect consensus necessarily from the forum, I would like to see what fun can be had with it by all of you too.

[Dr.Epic]

Vader. No question.

Voldemort spent an entire series trying to kill one kid with barely any experience and he had dozens of opportunities for him or someone else to kill Harry. Really, the only reason Voldemort got so far was because all the good wizards were so incompetent.

[comicshorse]

Vader force pulls Voldemort's wand out of his hand and then telekinitecally chokes him to death without even bothering to get his hands dirty.

Seriously we are talking about a guy who has spent his life at war with people with more powerful weapons that the average HP wizard dreams of versus a guy who spends most of his time in hiding bullying his minions.

[ArlEammon]

This isn't so much of a curb stomp towards Vader as some of you imagine. Voldemort has elemental magic and instant Avada Kedavra.

[Prime32]

Voldemort has elemental magic and instant Avada Kedavra.Avada Kedavra has been dodged by untrained housewives, and Vader is a Jedi with a weapon that can deflect energy blasts. Sure it would kill him if it hit, but a blaster would also kill him if it hit.

[ChaosLord29]

When I first considered this matchup, I went into it with an open mind, but over many lengthy debates, I find myself decidedly on the side of Vader.

My reasoning? Simple enough.

Combat Experience. Darth Vader is a veteran of two wars, having proven himself in single combat and on the battlefield since he was 16 years old. Voldemort, though by all accounts is a masterful duelist of the wizarding world, is somewhat less practiced by comparison. The closest thing the wizarding world has to a trained warrior is an auror, who is part policeman, part detective, part duelist, and while Voldemort has obviously had to defeat his fair share in order to rise to the top, it's hard to believe he's really had to engage in anything nearing a pitched battle as Vader knows them, let alone a military campaign.

So, while both are cold blooded, dyed-in-the-wool, methodical, merciless killers, Vader is also a soldier, warrior and fighter first, whereas Voldemort is really just a scholar made tyrant.

That gives Vader two key advantages, complimented by his abilities as a Jedi:

One, and this is a big one, reaction times. The biggest deciding factor not only in regular duels, but wizard duels and firefights as well. Voldemort may be good, good enough at least to win against the likes of other wizards (most of whom again are not trained fighters, let alone killers). But is he Jedi good? Vader's reaction times are precognitive! He literally knows what is going to happen split seconds before it happens. All Jedi and Sith can do that, which is why lightsaber duels are so necessarily complicated, and elaborate; they're executed several moves ahead of what is actually happening, just like a chess game, and Vader is purportedly one of the best at it!


Two, while both combatants began their training at an early age, (Vader: 9 and Voldemort 12) Voldemort went to school to learn wizardry, and Vader went to the Jedi academy to learn to become a Jedi Knight. Emphasis their on KNIGHT. Jedi training isn't just books and Force techniques, they hone themselves towards physical and martial perfection, a task Anakin Skywalker excelled at. Voldemort by comparison has by all accounts not done anything approaching a hard days work since leaving the orphanage. It's no wonder wizards in Harry potter are given to portliness and girth, since they've no need for exercise or physical exertion; Maybe the aurors do something to stay in shape (a gym in the Ministry of Magic?), but Vodlemort isn't even one of those. Vader is the picture of health and physical fitness when he's encased in his suit at 23 years old, and in effect stops aging. His strength, agility, endurance, toughness and even perception are all enhanced, by the mechanical augmentations Palpatine puts him through. Voldemort is a 70 year old man in comparatively good health to other wizards and 70 year olds.

Right there, I think Vader has all the advantage he needs. He can anticipate Voldemort's spells, even as Voldermort is thinking of them, use the Force to effectively counter with barriers, waves of kinetic energy, even cancel or breach them entirely, or else evade them with his superior agility and reflexes, waiting for an opportunity to make his own attack. If it really comes down to the end, The Dark Lord of the Sith can just run the Dark Lord of Wizards ragged and move in for a kill once his opponent is exhausted.

[ChaosLord29]

Avada Kedavra has been dodged by untrained housewives, and Vader is a Jedi with a weapon that can deflect energy blasts. Sure it would kill him if it hit, but a blaster would also kill him if it hit.

I wouldn't even be certain Avada Kedavra would kill Vader outright, given his cybernetic augmentations. Remeber Obi-wan says "He's more machine now than man." and Vader's suit, in addition to being a righteous set of armor, is also his life support system, as in his bodily functions are mechanical. Wizards also have spells that can shut down machines, but will Voldemort think to use one of those first?

I like to think that his lightsaber might be able to deflect spells, the same way Gryfindor's sword does (or most solid objects in the Potter universe for that matter), but even if it doesn't, Vader's got that indestructible right glove which survives the explosion of the Death Star (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Glove_of_Darth_Vader)!


Vader force pulls Voldemort's wand out of his hand and then telekinitecally chokes him to death without even bothering to get his hands dirty.

I like the sentiment, but let's assume that Voldemort can use magic to stop Vader from simply pulling the wand from his hand the same way a shield spell stops expelliarmus. Same thing with Force Choke.

[comicshorse]

[QUOTE=ChaosLord29;13236528

I like the sentiment, but let's assume that Voldemort can use magic to stop Vader from simply pulling the wand from his hand the same way a shield spell stops expelliarmus. Same thing with Force Choke.[/QUOTE]

I seem to remember wizards are pretty terrible without there wands. In fact its a sign of how good Voldemort is that he, unlike most, can still do any magic without a wand.
As for stopping him pulling the wand away that comes down to reaction time and who gets in first and as you yourself pointed out Vader's reflexes are combat honed

[Devonix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRLuPHvF6Fo

Luke wins against Harry so from that... Though Luke does have more skill than Vader does at the point this battle was taken.

[ChaosLord29]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRLuPHvF6Fo

Luke wins against Harry so from that... Though Luke does have more skill than Vader does at the point this battle was taken.

Potter had help from the Macguffin to defeat Voldemort, who was by all accounts clearly Harry's superior as a wizard. Not sure it's really relevant.


I'm with Vader on this, for reasons already outlined, but one should note that Avada Kedavra apparently also 'kills' inanimate things. I believe it was used once to shatter a statue, or set fire to something, can't recall specifically. HELP ME HARRY POTTER PEOPLE, YOU'RE MY ONLY HOPE.

Definitely more relevant, since, as you noted, powerful spells tend to impact the scenery around them (usually as physical force). Again, you run up against a problem though. Clothing obviously doesn't protect wizards from other wizards spells, but would some kind of armor? If stone and metal stops spells, would metal armor worn provide some protection? I think a good case can be made for Vader's right hand (made from a Mandalorian Iron crushgauntlet, and an indestructible Sith Amulet) would be more than sufficient to block spells. Mandalorian Iron (Beskar (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_iron)) is one of the toughest alloys in the Star Wars universe, and one of the few materials capable of withstanding a lightsaber blade. The Sith talisman was itself indestructible through the power of the Force, making it akin to a protective shield cloak like the ones made by the Weasely twins.

[Xondoure]

Avada kedavra kills life force. I see no reason it wouldn't work on Vader or his lightsaber. Plus the guy can freaking teleport.

Seriously, HP wizards have some crazy powerful magic to abuse, Voldemort was limited by his pride when it came to Harry, who was forced to rely on various magical protection as well as the help of others to survive. A thing Voldemort is keen to point out to anyone who will listen. The only being Voldemort ever had any trouble fighting was Albus Dumbledore. And Dumbledore had the elder wand!

This is my mini rant about how were it any other setting the default is "the teleporter wins" but since it's Harry Potter people just laugh it off.

Edit: Also not that easy to remove a wand. You never see Jedi force grabbing lightsabers out of other Jedi's hands.

[ChaosLord29]

Avada kedavra kills life force. I see no reason it wouldn't work on Vader or his lightsaber. Plus the guy can freaking teleport.

Seriously, HP wizards have some crazy powerful magic to abuse, Voldemort was limited by his pride when it came to Harry, who was forced to rely on various magical protection as well as the help of others to survive. A thing Voldemort is keen to point out to anyone who will listen. The only being Voldemort ever had any trouble fighting was Albus Dumbledore. And Dumbledore had the elder wand!

This is my mini rant about how were it any other setting the default is "the teleporter wins" but since it's Harry Potter people just laugh it off.

Edit: Also not that easy to remove a wand. You never see Jedi force grabbing lightsabers out of other Jedi's hands.

You make some good points, especially about the wand and Avada kedavra directly affecting life force, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge on the teleport thing. Were we talking about Nightcrawler or Blink here, I'd say that'd give them a definite edge over someone like Vader (despite his precognition) but Aparating isn't quite as simple as teleporting. It seems to require a good deal more concentration, effort and a clear mental image of where you are going and how you're going to be situated when you arrive there, as opposed to just teleporting anywhere in your line of sight.

I agree it won't be as simple as Vader yanking the wand from Voldemort's hand with the Force. For the record, Jedi and Sith do sometimes use Force push or pull to disarm one another, but it's the kind of thing you have to do while you're opponents focus is elsewhere, since normally during combat their focus is on their weapon. At the same time, you're dividing your own focus to do something as so refined with the Force (compared to a simple generally directed blast of kinetic energy). It's much harder than say, casting Expeliarmus on your opponent.

[Whoracle]

In the HPverse there are some instances of "Anti-Muggle" wards, as well as the "Put-Outer" Dumbledore uses.

Vader depends on muggle tech to survive. If Ol' Noseless can fire off an anti tech field fast enough, Vader's toast. Now, if Voldy is clever enough to actually DO this, given his contempt for muggles, is another question, but if he does, there's nothing Vader can do except maybe take Voldy with him.

Ideal case for Voldy:
- Port in
- Click the Putouter/Antitech-Spell in Vaders general direction
- Port out fast as hell
- Use clairvoyance-spell or something like that to monitor Vaders demise
- Port back in after an hour or so and teabag the now-dead sith-PEZ-dispenser.

[Hopeless]

Okay in case this hasn't been mentioned but that suit of body armour Vader is wearing was constructed by the Sith.

The been in existance how many thousands of years?

Makes use of technology and powers that were developed by an order of force user no jedi really knows much about... and you place him up against Voldermort who is essentially a lich with at least 7 phylacteries...

Anti-technology spells won't work, we're talking about something developed with far more than science, in all probability Vader will kill Voldermort and upon being told that Voldermort has the means to return from the dead Vader will simply thank him and ask that he try harder next time since he real;ly isn't much of a threat to someone who has spent the last twenty odds years in a Sith alchemically enhanced power suit after effectively being bathed in lava after losing both arms and legs (yes 1 was a prosthetic) the Avra Kedavra isn't going to be as effective as it would be normally since the killing curse is suppose to inflict unthinkable torment which is why Voldermort loves it so much on Vader on the other hand it would most likely do little more than tickle him...

Now the Emperor on the other hand might be very interested in Voldermort and I can't help wondering why noone has wondered if the Sith are the successors to Voldermort given their somewhat shared point of view... but the Sith have had millennia to improve on what Voldermort wishes he could get away with...

[thubby]

if we assume force and magic powers interact, I'd give it to vader. he has actual precognition, and his powers are a lot faster than even the simplest magic.

[Ashen Lilies]

Vader relinquished Han Solo of his blaster easily enough, though a case could be made for Solo simply being stunned from seeing Vader so casually block his blaster bolts. I assume though, that Jedi tend not to disarm each other that way because while *you* have the force, so does the other guy. Voldemort does not, and his most likely means of protecting himself (protego) requires you to (a) know that you are in the process of being disarmed (usually by hearing the other guy yell "Expelliarmus!" at the top of his lungs), and (b) be able to say/think the appropriate counterspell quickly enough to avoid your wand ending up in the other dude's hand. Against Vader, Voldemort will be left weaponless before he even realizes it.

[Whoracle]

Okay in case this hasn't been mentioned but that suit of body armour Vader is wearing was constructed by the Sith.

The been in existance how many thousands of years?

Makes use of technology and powers that were developed by an order of force user no jedi really knows much about... and you place him up against Voldermort who is essentially a lich with at least 7 phylacteries...

Anti-technology spells won't work, we're talking about something developed with far more than science, in all probability Vader will kill Voldermort and upon being told that Voldermort has the means to return from the dead Vader will simply thank him and ask that he try harder next time since he real;ly isn't much of a threat to someone who has spent the last twenty odds years in a Sith alchemically enhanced power suit after effectively being bathed in lava after losing both arms and legs (yes 1 was a prosthetic) the Avra Kedavra isn't going to be as effective as it would be normally since the killing curse is suppose to inflict unthinkable torment which is why Voldermort loves it so much on Vader on the other hand it would most likely do little more than tickle him...

Now the Emperor on the other hand might be very interested in Voldermort and I can't help wondering why noone has wondered if the Sith are the successors to Voldermort given their somewhat shared point of view... but the Sith have had millennia to improve on what Voldermort wishes he could get away with...


From Wookiepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader's_armor):


As the suit doubled as armor, the life-support system was made to be somewhat tough, though the electrical systems themselves were delicate.

Reinforced though it may be, fry the circuits and Vader's done. The armor might deflect AK and its ilk, but if the circuitry simply stops working there's nothing Vader can do.

From what I gather from the Sith Alchemy (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_alchemy) page, it seems to me that this'd be sufficient in hardening the armor against physical shock et al, but I guess if any force user had access to detailed knowledge on Vaders suit, he could have stopped the machinery from working. Vaders suit doesn't protect him from force lightning, after all. It's just that anti-tech spells tend to not need detailed information on the target, it simply works.

That said, Vader is still ways cooler than Voldy could ever hope to be.

[Fragenstein]

I think Hopeless is confusing Avada Kedavra (The Killing Curse), with Crucio (The Cruciatus Curse). The first one simply kills instantly and without fail. The Boy who Lived only did so because of the use of ancient metamagic which was counted as in class above anything the Wizarding World normally deals with.

Voldemort would put up a better fight than most people are giving him credit for. Think of how much Vader slowed down after being mechanized. Where in movies 1-3 of the Star Wars frachise, Jedi and Sith are both moving around the battlefield like kung fu masters on fast-forward.

Movies 4-6, however, shows that Obi Wan is old-and-slow, Vader is limited by the nature of his prosthetics and Luke is the product of a rushed training schedule. The genuinely talented dualists are gone by the time Vader rises to power. Even with the precognitive edge, Vader might not be quick enough.

Wizards, on the other hand, are still capable of fast paced and complex personal combat. Most of the action we witness is watered down as it's being performed either by amateurs or by people holding themselves back. When the war truly heats up and Wizards start going for each others' throats, spells are both cast and blocked with little forewarning. Think of how casually Snape was able to dismiss everything a determined Harry was able to throw at him.

There was more power in that universe than was really given exposure.

It seems to come down to a few important questions...

Can a lightsaber really block Avada Kedavra? A spell that cuts through all defenses other than an ancient spell powered by a dying life force? If so, then Vader has a chance.

Is Vader quick enough to to block Expelliarmus? Without his saber, Vader is a dead man. Alternatively, is his mastery of the force powerful enough to keep the saber in-hand even against the power of a disarming spell?

Vader has little in the way of ranged attacks. A few TK tosses and the Force Choke is all he's ever really demonstrated. Voldemort, on the other hand, has an entire library of ranged attacks to use along with true flight and teleportation (while Harry and pals had some difficulty with Apparating, the more experienced powerful wizards seemed more capable).

Voldemort has speed, range, destructive power and anti-tech fields on his side. Vader has... a deep voice, life support and a really sweet sword. All of his best work had been carried out before being crippled. After that, he managed to kill one old man who wanted to die anyway. Everything else was performed by the Imperial armies under the authority of the Emporer.

[Traab]

The problem with fighting vader is, most of voldemorts spells tend to be single target, point and shoot abilities, not unlike a blaster. And when the hell was the last time you ever saw a single person with a blaster kill a jedi/sith? Combine that with the fact that aside from force lightning, (which I dont know if vader can even DO) his force abilities are silent, invisible, and so are far harder to anticipate and block, and you have a distinct disadvantage at range for voldemort. "Is vader reaching out with his hand to take my wand? To force choke me? To hit me in the back of the head with some rubble?"

The question of avada kedavra being blockable by a lightsaber is an interesting one. I have a better idea though. "Nox" Heh, wonder if he could turn off a "light" saber by using that charm? Would be funny as hell if he could. "Avada Kedavra! Nox!" Vader gets a killing curse to the face when his saber turns off in mid block. Joking aside, I would expect that it could take at least one AK to the blade. Whether it would damage the saber and leave it broken after the fact is a good question. A better one would be, with force precog, would vader even try to block it if it would destroy his saber/glove/suit?

All that being said, back to my first point. If the fight lasts long enough and voldemort figures out his single target blasts arent working, he DOES have other options. Im not sure what vader could do to stop fiendfire for example. Might even have a psychological advantage against him. Seeing something hotter than lava heading right for him again, could cause some nasty flashbacks.

[Ashen Lilies]

The problem with fighting vader is, most of voldemorts spells tend to be single target, point and shoot abilities, not unlike a blaster. And when the hell was the last time you ever saw a single person with a blaster kill a jedi/sith?

Jango Fett. :smalltongue:


Combine that with the fact that aside from force lightning, (which I dont know if vader can even DO) his force abilities are silent, invisible, and so are far harder to anticipate and block, and you have a distinct disadvantage at range for voldemort. "Is vader reaching out with his hand to take my wand? To force choke me? To hit me in the back of the head with some rubble?"

I'm pretty sure Vader specifically can't lightning it up, as it would damage his own suit circuitry. The rest of the stuff is valid though. :smallsmile:

[Nerd-o-rama]

I have to side with the Vader team here.

Voldemort: *draws wand*
Vader: *draws and ignites lightsaber*
Voldemort: "Avada Kedavra!"
Vader's lightsaber: *spang*
Voldemort: *back to being incorporeal for a decade*

Vader's just kind of designed to kill a single opponent with a raygun effortlessly. Voldemort's not even much of a duelist in his own canon, he's just a demagogue with an infinite supply of instant death spells (which happen to behave exactly like blaster bolts).

[Traab]

Jango Fett. :smalltongue:



I'm pretty sure Vader specifically can't lightning it up, as it would damage his own suit circuitry. The rest of the stuff is valid though. :smallsmile:

Who did jango fett kill in a one on one fight with a blaster? I recall obi wan saber smacking the taste out of his mouth for the most part at the clone facility, and him getting his head chopped off by mace windu at the grand finale. Im not saying he didnt kill someone in the melee, but I dunno if that really counts as one on one. Ok, he did kill a nameless jedi here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzdMyqZsJ2k) I could quibble about him having flanked that jedi and caught him by surprise but ill give credit for the kill. But watch what happens 48 seconds into the film. Thats what a MASTER does when faced off against a blaster opponent. Fett is voldemort, windu is vader. That would be how the fight would tend to go, deflect, deflect, disarm, decapitate. Unless voldemort figures out direct attacks are a bad choice fast, the fight would likely end about that quickly.

[Emmerask]

Well the killing curse would certainly kill Vader no matter his robot parts with life support systems (no amount of life support brings back a dead person^^)

As for the Voldemort is not even able to kill a child... well it was prophecy, no one can do anything against fate, so I wouldn´t use this fact to measure the combat effectiveness.

I still would think vader would win because of one glaring weakness, hp wizards are nearly useless without wands, coupled with the force power to see the shortterm future (ie a few seconds) perfectly gives vader instant reaction time, so he will most likely be able to force pull/push the wand before Valdemort can react.

[Ashen Lilies]

It... was actually the nameless Jedi whom I was referring to. >.>

But if you don't count that then I guess that's your call and I'm not really gonna argue it, as I was mostly just cracking wise. :smalltongue:

[Fragenstein]

The problem with fighting vader is, most of voldemorts spells tend to be single target, point and shoot abilities, not unlike a blaster. And when the hell was the last time you ever saw a single person with a blaster kill a jedi/sith?

Blasters fire a relatively slow moving bolt of plasma, though. It's debateable whether or not these move faster than an expertly executed spell.

Plus not all spells are that limited in their targeting. Incarcerous spells cause ropes or chains to appear from nowhere to bind a target, for example.

Further, if we posit that magic and the Force are analagous, then wouldn't the various incarnations of Protego keep the majority of Vader's attacks at bay? He'd be limited to chucking a few loose items around at Voldemort.

Weak. Repello would stop that.

Then we get into Bedazzling charms and, most important, the various methods of rendering things invisible. By the time Vader even draws his saber, Voldemort may have set up an immunity to Force powers, thrown objects, turned invisible and moved to anyplace in the room. Occlumency would then prevent Vader from using Force-based senses from locating the wizard.

From there he has a host of powers that can turn the battleground itself against Vader; anything from indirect indendiary attacks to explosions, bringing inanimate objects to life or turning the floor into perma-glue.

I don't know. A Voldemort who refutes hubris and takes his opponent seriously is going to have a lot more death options to deal out then an asthmatic Moff choker.

[polity4life]

...if we posit that magic and the Force are analagous...

A Voldemort who refutes hubris and takes his opponent seriously...

Those are two very big assumptions. The second could be possible but all evidence points to the contrary. The former is mirky. But if Vader supposedly has eight-tenths the power of Palpatine and Palpatine was the strongest Sith in galactic history then I'm inclined to believe that Vader has this.

Those bits on power comparisons come from the Wookieepedia pages for Anakin and Palpatine, so take them as you will.

[Ashen Lilies]

As mentioned before, if a portly, middle-aged housewife can dodge a spell, I'm willing to bet that Vader can too. :smalltongue:

[Fragenstein]

Those are two very big assumptions. The second could be possible but all evidence points to the contrary. The former is mirky. But if Vader supposedly has eight-tenths the power of Palpatine and Palpatine was the strongest Sith in galactic history then I'm inclined to believe that Vader has this.

Those bits on power comparisons come from the Wookieepedia pages for Anakin and Palpatine, so take them as you will.

The 5th condition listed in the first post states that the Force and magic can affect each other. We're really only taking that into consideration for this matchup.

If a light saber can block spells, then by all rights Protego and Occlumency should block force powers.


But, fine. I'll settle it with my trump card:

"Lord Vader's dead?! How the hell did that happen?"

"A wizard did it, sir."


Side bet: We've seen that Death Star technology doesn't just blow up entire planets, but it can also be focused on capital ships. Given that Hogwarts and the Ministry of Magic are the two best protected structures in the Wizarding world, could either withstand a direct hit?

[JustSomeGuy]

If a light saber can block spells, then by all rights Protego and Occlumency should block force powers.

Assuming their powers basically cancel each other, it appears to be a dragon vs. elf fight.

[Traab]

The 5th condition listed in the first post states that the Force and magic can affect each other. We're really only taking that into consideration for this matchup.

If a light saber can block spells, then by all rights Protego and Occlumency should block force powers.


But, fine. I'll settle it with my trump card:

"Lord Vader's dead?! How the hell did that happen?"

"A wizard did it, sir."


Side bet: We've seen that Death Star technology doesn't just blow up entire planets, but it can also be focused on capital ships. Given that Hogwarts and the Ministry of Magic are the two best protected structures in the Wizarding world, could either withstand a direct hit?


No, no it couldnt. Even if by some psychotic twist of impossible fate the building did survive the initial hit, id say plunging into the molten core of the earth through the hole that got punched all around it would finish things nicely. At the very least making the whole point moot.

[Fragenstein]

No, no it couldnt. Even if by some psychotic twist of impossible fate the building did survive the initial hit, id say plunging into the molten core of the earth through the hole that got punched all around it would finish things nicely. At the very least making the whole point moot.

An alternate-universe PS238 was once ripped into orbit and protected for an extended period of time by a single super-powered child. So...

Could Hogwarts do the same?

Further, we all know that the 'vulnerable' exhaust port on the first Death Star was ray-shielded against blasters. Could Avada Kedavra simulate a proton torpedo strike and set off the destructive chain reaction?

[Nerd-o-rama]

A Voldemort who refutes hubris and takes his opponent seriously

would no longer be Voldemort.

[Mewtarthio]

Side bet: We've seen that Death Star technology doesn't just blow up entire planets, but it can also be focused on capital ships. Given that Hogwarts and the Ministry of Magic are the two best protected structures in the Wizarding world, could either withstand a direct hit?

No. We're talking about a weapon that blows up entire planets. Even if you could somehow shield a single building from that, what would be the point? The building's not much good when there's no more Earth for it to sit on.

Seriously, we're talking about an attack so powerful that the wizards wouldn't even conceive of anyone using it.

[Prime32]

In the HPverse there are some instances of "Anti-Muggle" wards, as well as the "Put-Outer" Dumbledore uses.

Vader depends on muggle tech to survive. If Ol' Noseless can fire off an anti tech field fast enough, Vader's toast. Now, if Voldy is clever enough to actually DO this, given his contempt for muggles, is another question, but if he does, there's nothing Vader can do except maybe take Voldy with him.

Ideal case for Voldy:
- Port in
- Click the Putouter/Antitech-Spell in Vaders general direction
- Port out fast as hell
- Use clairvoyance-spell or something like that to monitor Vaders demise
- Port back in after an hour or so and teabag the now-dead sith-PEZ-dispenser."Anti-tech fields" are generated as a side effect of having massive amounts of magic in one location, like Hogwarts. There's no reason to believe that anyone could weaponise that.

In addition, enchanted Muggle items (such as cars and cameras) work inside such fields just fine. Vader's suit was created with Sith alchemy, so it should be immune.


Further, we all know that the 'vulnerable' exhaust port on the first Death Star was ray-shielded against blasters. Could Avada Kedavra simulate a proton torpedo strike and set off the destructive chain reaction?Could Voldemort fly into deep space while being fired on by TIE Fighters and ginormous laser batteries, then escape the explosion of a moon-sized object in Earth orbit? (also given the short range of HP spells I'm pretty sure he'd have to fly into the exhaust port himself and attack the reactor directly)

[Fragenstein]

Seriously, we're talking about an attack so powerful that the wizards wouldn't even conceive of anyone using it.

Yeah. I've often wondered what would happen if there were all-out, genocidal war between the muggles and wizards. We seem to outnumber them significantly, use actual military tactics and have weapons that can make killing curses look like a cat scratch.

Sure, they'd likely slaughter a LOT of people before we caught on, but then could any of their installations even withstand a nuclear strike?

That actually would have been a better tact for Voldermort to follow. Expose the wizards to the muggles and force war between the two. Whoever was left standing should be easy pickings for the Death Eater army he kept safely tucked away.

But, like Nerd-o-rama said, that just doesn't seem to be his style.

[Mystic Muse]

Further, we all know that the 'vulnerable' exhaust port on the first Death Star was ray-shielded against blasters. Could Avada Kedavra simulate a proton torpedo strike and set off the destructive chain reaction?

How would Voldemort even find out about the exhaust port, let alone find it? I realize he could cast Avada Kedavra without speaking, but he still has to know it exists. Does he have a lot of Bothans to die to bring him this information?

[JustSomeGuy]

No surprise rounds; both combatants are assumed to be aware of one another at the start of the fight and begin 10 paces apart (about 25 feet, standard duel distance, even for Wizards apparently).

No death stars, exhaust ports, mass warfare etc. 1-on-1 face off guys!

[Fragenstein]

Could Voldemort fly into deep space while being fired on by TIE Fighters and ginormous laser batteries, then escape the explosion of a moon-sized object in Earth orbit?

Probably, but he'd apparently have to Animage himself into a womp rat to avoid being hit.


"How would Voldemort even find out about the exhaust port, let alone find it? I realize he could cast Avada Kedavra without speaking, but he still has to know it exists. Does he have a lot of Bothans to die to bring him this information?"

House elves. They're probably the only ones who can Apparate past a deflector shield, anyway.


No surprise rounds; both combatants are assumed to be aware of one another at the start of the fight and begin 10 paces apart (about 25 feet, standard duel distance, even for Wizards apparently).

No death stars, exhaust ports, mass warfare etc. 1-on-1 face off guys!

Well, it was just a side-bet anyway. I still stand by Vader being slowed by his prosthetics and Voldemort having a greater array of powers giving the victory to the wizard.

[sol_kanar]

If a D&D-like time-discrete combat were to happen between the two, I think the outcome will heavily depend on the initiative roll. If Vader wins, he can Force Choke and/or step in melee range and quickly gain the upper hand. If Voldemort wins, he can Avada Kedavra and then, based on the outcome of that, eventually fly away, going out of Vader's range, and throw everything at him (note that, for example, imperio is not a bolt, nor is crucio).

I think that both have at least one power able to one-shot their opponent, if not countered. Voldemort has powers with a longer range and more versatility, but Vader would toast him in close quarters.

So, it depends on the initiative roll :-)

[Chen]

Even if you can't use force telekinesis to directly harm someone I can't imagine it would take that much effort to just break the damn wooden wand. At which point Voldemort is kind of screwed. Presuming Vader's precognition would show Voldemort aiming his wand and shooting at him, breaking it seems pretty reasonable. That or picking up some big rock and just hitting Voldemort from behind with it. Or throwing his lightsaber past Voldemort and having it come back and cut him in half. That last one is probably the simplest because Voldemort is not a precog so he needs to keep his eye on Vader. Something hitting him from behind is likely to catch him unaware.

Depending on the Magic/Force interaction Vader may just be able to absorb the killing curse (and any other curse) regardless. Vader showed he could absorb blaster bolts in Empire so its not impossible that he'd just absorb whatever curses Voldemort threw at him (that were projectiles) and just kill him with his lightsaber.

[Xondoure]

If force=magic, than yeah protego works. Also an important note, pre cog is not an instant win for Vader. Because he happens to be fighting the greatest legilimens on earth. And given that Vader has never been very good at obscuring his thoughts, well, he can be read like an open book is what I'm getting at.

And as for any nonsense about Vader's armor absorbing spells. Well, a few seconds of lightning did the trick so we know it isn't indestructible. And the Killing curse cannot be blocked. I'd say it's canon that it can't be dodged but I would die laughing before I got to the end of that sentence. Vader vs. Voldemort would be vader trying to close the gap while Voldy flicks away any attempts at telekinesis. Then he teleports and smacks him with the killing curse.

I love Vader much more, I really do. But coolness does not equal power and I'm tired of seeing that in vs. threads.

Harry get's brought up whenever Voldy get's mentioned. But Harry only survived due to the power of plot. Or in universe, a crazy amount of fortuitous circumstance and the sacrifice of other wizards. When Voldy is fighting an opponent that isn't psychologically tied to his one moment of failure, he has yet to be defeated.

[ChaosLord29]

Assuming their powers basically cancel each other, it appears to be a dragon vs. elf fight.

Precisely.

[ChaosLord29]

If force=magic, than yeah protego works. Also an important note, pre cog is not an instant win for Vader. Because he happens to be fighting the greatest legilimens on earth. And given that Vader has never been very good at obscuring his thoughts, well, he can be read like an open book is what I'm getting at.

And as for any nonsense about Vader's armor absorbing spells. Well, a few seconds of lightning did the trick so we know it isn't indestructible. And the Killing curse cannot be blocked. I'd say it's canon that it can't be dodged but I would die laughing before I got to the end of that sentence. Vader vs. Voldemort would be vader trying to close the gap while Voldy flicks away any attempts at telekinesis. Then he teleports and smacks him with the killing curse.

Ok, if the Force and Magic can be used to counter one another, I think Voldemort still has an edge in that he's capable of spells and power rivaling Palpatine (An ages old Sith Sorcerer himself). Vader should be more than capable of defending himself thanks to his precognition and superior agility and more focused counters and defenses.

As for the legilimens, I don't what makes you think Vader isn't any could at shielding his mind. If you're referring to Luke 'feeling the good in him' that's because Luke is his son and is bonded to him in much the same way a Padawan and his Mentor are (thanks to their family ties and their duel on Cloud City). Vader long keeps his mind shielded from the Emperor (who must surely rival Voldemort in terms of mind probes.

And as for the Killing Curse being unblockable, that's unblockable by any spell. Mundane objects like stone, earth and metal seem perfectly capable of blocking spells, as given by the fact that Wizards take cover behind them during battle. Avada Kedavara itself is blocked by a statue (which shatters) at one point, but Vader's armor is made of the same stuff as starship hulls. And as I've noted before, his right guantlet is literally indestructible, being made of a metal which blocks lightsabers and a Sith Talisman.


Well the killing curse would certainly kill Vader no matter his robot parts with life support systems (no amount of life support brings back a dead person^^)

As for the Voldemort is not even able to kill a child... well it was prophecy, no one can do anything against fate, so I wouldn´t use this fact to measure the combat effectiveness.

I still would think vader would win because of one glaring weakness, hp wizards are nearly useless without wands, coupled with the force power to see the shortterm future (ie a few seconds) perfectly gives vader instant reaction time, so he will most likely be able to force pull/push the wand before Valdemort can react.

I must disagree on the whole "life support issue" as one of the previous posters pointed out, Darth Vader's armor is a combination of technology and Sith Alchemy. Vader is sustained not only by his own iron will to live, but the arcane technologies of Palpating (not easily replicated as it turns out) and the power of the Force. It's almost like the Vader is wearing a horcrux of his own, in which case it's debatable whether Avada Kedavara would have any effect on it.

I would reiterate Whoracle's point, that perhaps an anti-technology spell could be used to short out the electronics in Vader's armor which would almost surely leave him blind (he sees using the helmets augmented viewing systems, which are not Sith Alchemy) and likely wheezing as his 'pacemaker' shorts out. The power of the Force and the Sith Sorcery in the armor would keep him alive surely, but he'd be no where near full strength.

The larger point is, Voldemort having limited to no experience with anything resembling a 'life support system' is unlikely to even suspect Vader's armor is anything but that, fancy spell blocking armor.


Yeah. I've often wondered what would happen if there were all-out, genocidal war between the muggles and wizards. We seem to outnumber them significantly, use actual military tactics and have weapons that can make killing curses look like a cat scratch.

Sure, they'd likely slaughter a LOT of people before we caught on, but then could any of their installations even withstand a nuclear strike?

That actually would have been a better tact for Voldermort to follow. Expose the wizards to the muggles and force war between the two. Whoever was left standing should be easy pickings for the Death Eater army he kept safely tucked away.

But, like Nerd-o-rama said, that just doesn't seem to be his style.

Interesting issue for another thread guys, haha. Though I'm with you on the Muggles winning thing.

[Dr.Epic]

I don't want to nitpick, but the title is misleading. Vader is not the Big Bad. He's only the Dragon. The Big Bad - the Emperor in this instance - is the absolute leader. The Dragon is just their right hand man although they can be just as powerful or even more powerful.

Either way, I still say Vader wins and the Emperor could beat Voldemort too. Heck, I think some of those awful, weak battle droids from the prequels could take out a good number of HP wizards.

[Xondoure]

Okay leaving this conversation before I get too upset. Star Wars is a wonderful piece of fiction. But I really can't stand how overpowered people represent it in vs. threads. I just don't see any way Vader is equipped to deal with a mind reading, teleporting, fiendfyre throwing, force power blocking, flying, disarming, instant kill sending, mind controlling, immortal hax machine.

[Whoracle]

I would reiterate Whoracle's point, that perhaps an anti-technology spell could be used to short out the electronics in Vader's armor which would almost surely leave him blind (he sees using the helmets augmented viewing systems, which are not Sith Alchemy) and likely wheezing as his 'pacemaker' shorts out. The power of the Force and the Sith Sorcery in the armor would keep him alive surely, but he'd be no where near full strength.

Just one more thing on this: Wookiepedia, as I linked above, exhaustingly dissects Vaders armor. Seriously, just try to read that article. Someone had waaaay too much time. It's not only Vaders pacemaker, it's his breathing, his circulatory system (apparently) as well as his complete limbs. And those systems weren't enhanced with Sith Alchemy (or so it seems). Vader wouldn't be only blind, but motionless (except for rolling around), unable to breathe, and his heart'd stop beating. While this may not count as death, in my book it certainly counts as defeat.

Granted, Voldy'd be too stupid to do such a thing...

Also, on the point of antitech being a side effect of magic: Can't check right now, but I seem to remember that most instances of anti-tech (and muggle repellant) were explicitly called "wards" in the HP books. In GoF, during the quidditch world cup they had people setting up the wards and all that. Wards for me equal spells, although not the bolt-of-coloured-light kind. And yes, enchanted muggle items still work, but I am under the impression of that being a case of either the items being too mundane (purely mechanical systems will still work, like a clock or a water mill or something) or being excepted by the caster.

Vaders systems are, as has been mentioned above somewhere, way more sophisticated than a simple clockwork, so not too mundane, and I doubt even Voldy'd be stupid enough to explicitly except his opponents armor from such a spell.

[Mutant Sheep]

Okay leaving this conversation before I get too upset. Star Wars is a wonderful piece of fiction. But I really can't stand how overpowered people represent it in vs. threads. I just don't see any way Vader is equipped to deal with a mind reading, teleporting, fiendfyre throwing, force power blocking, flying, disarming, instant kill sending, mind controlling, immortal hax machine.

Why do you assume that magic blocks force but force doesn't block magic?:smallconfused: Force push force push force push=stalemate. But Vader can still walk when force pushing, Volde can't exactly just appereate when engaged in a force/magic duel. So endless circling as Volde makes his constipated groan and Vader twirls his lightsaber wishing he had time to fling it at him.:smallsigh:

[Forum Explorer]

Okay leaving this conversation before I get too upset. Star Wars is a wonderful piece of fiction. But I really can't stand how overpowered people represent it in vs. threads. I just don't see any way Vader is equipped to deal with a mind reading, teleporting, fiendfyre throwing, force power blocking, flying, disarming, instant kill sending, mind controlling, immortal hax machine.

Because quite frankly HP wizards are retarded. I think Word of God is that a SWAT team would pretty much always win against Aurors if the SWAT team knew what they were up against.

Mind Reading? Vader is an expert Mind Reader himself and has plenty of defenses against it.

Teleporting? It's not instant (but it is quick) but precog + the nigh unlimited range of the force pretty much negates it.

Fiendfyre? I know almost nothing about besides it being a fire that can't be put out by with water. I doubt it would even hurt Vader.

Force Power Blocking? Well I don't know what the shield spell does but it is slower then an instantaneous force power.

Flying? Meet unlimited range of the force.

Disarming? Meet unlimited range of the force

Instant kill? Sure if he can hit Vader who can float as many objects as he wants in front of him and has Precog

Mind Controlling? Not a bad idea really but it can be fought by a strong will which Vader has and it needs to hit as well.

Immortal? Mostly irrelevant to the conditions of the OP.

By unlimited range of the force I'm referring to where Vader chokes somebody through a TV screen. If I remember correctly Vader was in orbit and the guy was on the ground. So if Vodly is in sight he is more then close enough to hit with any ability which is basically an instant kill.

[hamishspence]

By unlimited range of the force I'm referring to where Vader chokes somebody through a TV screen. If I remember correctly Vader was in orbit and the guy was on the ground. So if Vodly is in sight he is more then close enough to hit with any ability which is basically an instant kill.

Nope- that was Admiral Ozzel, and both were aboard the Executor at the time.

That said, ship-to-ship Force Choking (via video-link) does happen in the EU- C'baoth does it in Outbound Flight.

[Dr.Epic]

Nope- that was Admiral Ozzel, and both were aboard the Executor at the time.

That said, ship-to-ship Force Choking (via video-link) does happen in the EU- C'baoth does it in Outbound Flight.

That quote of mine from your post - I never posted that. What the what? Why does it say Dr. Epic and post something to something else? I'm confused!!!:smalleek: My mind can not comprehend this!!!:smalleek:

[ChaosLord29]

Okay leaving this conversation before I get too upset. Star Wars is a wonderful piece of fiction. But I really can't stand how overpowered people represent it in vs. threads. I just don't see any way Vader is equipped to deal with a mind reading, teleporting, fiendfyre throwing, force power blocking, flying, disarming, instant kill sending, mind controlling, immortal hax machine.

Look, I for one am not saying Vader would win because he's cooler. But in your description of Voldemort you've got the problem right here, for the purposes of this duel, he can't be an immortal hax machine. You have to assume the Force can counter Magic and magic can counter the Force, and if you assume both those things, then at the end of the day Vader is a Lightsaber wielding dark knight of the Sith and Voldemort is just a 70 year old Englishman with a stick.

[Prime32]

That quote of mine from your post - I never posted that. What the what? Why does it say Dr. Epic and post something to something else? I'm confused!!!:smalleek: My mind can not comprehend this!!!:smalleek:Don't get too worked up about it.

[Aotrs Commander]

At the end of the day, the (preportedly, by the wizard's own perceptions) pinnicle of HP magical offensive is basically a ray-gun, equivilent, if you want to be generous, to a slow-firing phaser. It can be dodged and blocked by solid objects. It's power is fairly impressive by 20th century Earth standards. But not by most sci-fi standards (or, if we're honest, by the standards of most RPG games, tabletop or otherwise.)

Voldemort was a threat only because the HP wizarding world is phenominally and deliberately insular and culturally stagnated, and even then only because of their ability to control small-scale outbreaks into the muggle world with cover-ups. (Given how patronisingly the wizarding world takes the muggles, it's also entirely possible that things like nukes or airpower are something the would never have even considered.) Wizarding "wars" are clearly fought with small unit actions (with the "muggle" wars being thought of as something of a side-show).

Voldemort is not bullet-proof. A sniper could take him out (in the same manner, to be fair, that it could be said for Batman as well, or Captain America (justified, in fact...!). Vader himself is arguably sniper-proof only because of the force-deflection powers. And I think he'd be hard pressed to stop two snipers firing from opposite directions simultaneously (if you could pull it off...)

The HP wizards are capable of some pretty impressive feats, but not in combat-related areas, and they are hopelessly tactically naive, even by the low standards of Star Wars (where it is considered good tactics from infantry to walk towards each other slowly, while firing...); their tactics are optimised for dealing with other wizards. And demonstrably showed by the HP series, wizards are not very good at lateral thinking, as we could come up with dozens of ways to abuse their spells better than they could.

If Voldemort gets initiative, there is a reasonable chance he could get lucky and knobble Vader, if we assume that their respective mind-control powers cancel out and that AK is sufficiently powerful that it can't be deflected by a lightsabre. (If it can, then Vader wins hands down. There is a possibilty of that, as it's only "unblockable" by the standards of 20th Century Wizarding Earth, who have no energy weapons to speak of. Indeed, given that, fanfiction aside, most HP shielding spells don't appear to be that common, impressive, or geared up to deal with high-impact energy (or even any reasonable kineitc impact, since hand-to-hand combat still occurs, which you would have thought couldn't happen it their shields worked universally), it might be argued that a regular bullet/.50 cal/RPG-22 is pretty much "unblockable."

HP is just not a high-powered environment, despite all of it's considerable heft in utility and arguably medical areas. Which is why it tends to come across as losing in most verses settings.

Heck, I wouldn't rate Voldemort as being able to take Batman, Cap or Colonel Jack O'Neill, for that matter, in a straight fight...! (Okay, maybe that last one, but then again...)

It's not a matter of cool, it's a matter of HP being woefully under-optimised for doing anything other than fighting itself or "bully" fights in which magic grants it an overwhelming advantage (i.e. 20th century muggles.)



Edit: The analogy just hit me. Wizard combat is a bit like the origin of martial arts weapons, i.e. the adaption of tools into weapons. Wizarding combat is very much like a martial arts fight, big flashy, but not really all that efficient and completely buggered if the other guy is not inclined to play ball and fight on the same standards. MA movies/anime (etc) and humour aside, martial arts are not a match for bullets. Wizards are in a similar (if not nearly as severely disadvantaged) boat.

[Jothki]

That quote of mine from your post - I never posted that. What the what? Why does it say Dr. Epic and post something to something else? I'm confused!!!:smalleek: My mind can not comprehend this!!!:smalleek:

What are you talking about?

[Mutant Sheep]

What are you talking about?

Look at the thing he quoted.:smallannoyed: Then follow the green arrow. Not his post, but the thing is attributed to him. Weird.

[Fragenstein]

Wow, still haven't settled this. People are really overestimating Vader...


F'Explorer -- Fiendfyre is a magical, living flame that is both voracious and unstoppable. It's capable of destroying everything in its path, including items otherwise deamed indestructable (including ancient artifacts and Voldemort's own horcruxes).

The only reason why Crabbe's use of it didn't consume all of Hogwarts was because it'd been summoned within a pocket-dimension... which now no longer exists because it was destroyed by Fiendfyer.

Neither would survive being bathed in the stuff, but at least Voldemort would presumably have control over it by being the (experienced), caster of the spell.

Crabbe was a hack who shouldn't have been playing with such a powerful dark art and ended up dying because of it.

Vader would be facing a living wall a flame the size of a tsunami with the mind of an enraged shark and the destructive power of the Death Star itself. That spell alone would leave our Sith Lord as a quickly dissapting cloud of wheezy vapor.

Precognition isn't going to do much against that other than let you know how badly it's going to hurt.

Plus, people keep talking about Vader's reaction time and how quickly Force powers can be brought into play. Really, though, that was Anakin. After the big burn, Vader spent three movies lumbering around like an arthritic wookie. He couldn't even keep up with Luke and was impressed by a simple leap out of a shallow pit.

Ooh... most impressive... not. Vader wasn't even fast enough to keep from getting tagged in a light-saber duel vs. the relatively rank amateur. Remember when Luke got his hand cut off? Immediately before, he lands a solid blow on Vader's shoulder. If that arm hadn't been an armored prosthetic, the fight would have been over. Way to almost lose against someone with less training than the average Youngling.

Even his powers themselves take a moment of concentration to use. Remember him stepping backwards and going into a state of near meditation before eventually a few medium sized pieces of equipment start smacking Luke around? If Voldemort had been given that much time to mount an offense, Vader and his next three generation of children would have been wand-smacked into oblivion.

Sectumsempra, on the other hand, is a spell capable of slicing just as effectively as a light saber. Only it does the job invisibly, silently and from a distance.

The movies try to give every Harry Potter spell a visible source so that the audience can relate to the action, and even then it allows for sourceless, area-effect spells.

"Accio: Light Saber. Oh, neat. Now I have a wand AND a light saber."

"(Silent) Anapneo. Phew. For a minute there, it felt like I was being choked."

"Immobulus. You know, there's nothing like a massive burst of magical power that completely immobilizes every enemy in the room. Including mechanical ones. Hold still, Vader. I 'got some more stuff I want to show you."

Seriously. Wands aren't blasters. They don't always fire off a bright burst of light that can be deflected by a light saber, and Vader doesn't have a personal force field. Just armor, an inhaler and apparently limbs in need of an oil change because the boy is just too damn slow.

[polity4life]

Snip

On the flip side, the fight could go like this:

Voldermort, with his usual taunting tone says, "Oh, what a strange looking one you are! What, do you seek my power? Do you seek to usurp the greatest wizard ev-..."

All the while, Vader, while merely staring at his opponent, has without motion or word summoned every bit of matter he can focus on and collapses it all onto the same spot Voldermort is occupying. Splat. Then Vader sends out his kinectic Force ball to blow up what's left (see Wookieepedia).

I don't say that as a Star Wars fanboy but if we're going to assume one side can unleash its full potential without any hope of defense then so can the other.

[Aotrs Commander]

The truth of the matter of nearly all of these verses threads is there is a large degree of rocket tag (and thus luck) and without actually specifically "playing in out" blow by blow one can only make broad estimations. I think Vader is most likely to win, but only "most likely" and it really all depends on who gets the first shot off.

However, it ALSO must be noted, that whenever you see a fight within something's own genera, they also virtually never use the insta-kill tactics that verses threads often espouse.



The fact Voldemort never did use Fiendfyre suggests it was sufficiently unstable, even with his mastery, that is would be unlikely to be his first opening move; especially against a "muggle"; by the same token, Vader is not likely to start out with his top level attacks on a non-Force-user. (As I've said before, we're talking about Vader and Voldemort, not Two Random Guys With Their Powers.)

Fiendfyre also strikes me as the wrong tool for the job. It seems much less of an anti-person spell, more of a demolitions-type spell.

[Fragenstein]

Voldermort, with his usual taunting tone...

Yeah. MASSIVE drawback to all of Voldemort's power. I will admit that. Vader doesn't mess around with intimidation. Ruthless. Go for the kill and discard the body.

But don't forget that Voldemort can actually be the same way when he knows he's facing a genuine threat. In the first book, through the possessed body of Quirrell, he waits only long enough to find the Stone. After that it's all "Don't hesitate, kill him now!"

He can go for the jugular when he knows the other guy is a threat. Most of the posturing he displays after that is an attempt to re-establish his aboslute dominance over the Death Eaters.

I believe it's not until two or three books into the series that he starts saying "Bring me the boy alive, I must execute him publicly." And that's only because his own people are starting to doubt that the Dark Lord can take on The Boy who Lived.

Other enemies just... die.

So I'll give you that, and I believe I've agreed to this once already. If Voldemort pisses around and allows Vader the opening salvo, he could lose. even then it's not for certain because he has defensive magic of his own that can stop any incoming Force attack from any direction. And he has the reaction time of a snake.

"Trying to crush me? Well, I could just repel all of those thrown objects. After all, we wizards have at least three different spells that do the exact same thing and more... But I'm not even standing there anymore. Nice attempt, however."

[Chen]

We're assuming a Force/Magic transperence, so presumably neither will be able to affect the other with their force/magic (protego/force absorb should cover pretty much everything). The killing curse is unblockable but then again its easily dodged throughout the books/movies (and oddly in the movies it does seem "blockable" whenever people seem to be duelling). With precognition I can't imagine Vader getting hit by it (unless the precognition shows him the result of what will happen and it turns out to be nothing).

Without a wand Voldemort is also at a huge disadvantage. Even if you can't force grab the wand (since we said direct powers are cancelled out) you could throw things at it. It doesn't take much force to break a small piece of wood. Basically it ends up with the fact that Vader is an armoured cyborg and Voldemort is just an old man.

Even if somehow that avenue of attack is cancelled by magic or whatnot, it ends up being an old man vs another old man who also happens to be a cyborg with a sword that cuts through practically anything.

[Fragenstein]

(...force absorb...)

Ah, damn you, expanded universe. Tutaminis. Energy Control abilities taught in Jedi 101 and used to explain how Yoda caught Force Lightning with his bare hands.

If Vader were a master of this technique then every spell cast on him would potentially only make him stronger. But, then again, so would have the Force Lightning attack used by Palpatine to kill him. Vader may have used this to block Solo's blaster attacks in Cloud City, but that's apparently up for debate given his legendarily indestructible glove and cybernetic arm.

When I first saw that as a kid, I assumed he was using the Force to protect himself. Then, after learning it was an artificial hand, that it was either just damn tough material or had a miniaturized deflector shield.

Wookipedia seems to be split on the blaster-blocking between Tutaminis powers and the Mandalorian Crushgaunt.

If Vader actually is a master of the Force Absorb, then that would mean his defenses actually DO match Voldemorts. That evens things up greatly.

But why, then, why he die from an energy attack?

[Nerd-o-rama]

But why, then, why he die from an energy attack?

As much as I hate to get into a debate on the minutiae of Star Wars physics - and I really hate it - I feel obliged to point out that Vader wasn't really in top form or capable of concentrating at that point. And with a hand missing and all that conductive wiring exposed, he was particularly vulnerable to electrical discharge (regardless of the 'source' of Force Lightning, I'm pretty sure its physical properties are the same as electrical current).

[Forum Explorer]

I would love to argue about Fiendfyre I really would, but like I said before I only have the vaguest idea on what it actually is so I can say anything.

I will however point out that the HP universe seems to be full of things that are 'unblockable' or 'indestructible' which are then promptly blocked and destroyed. Some are blocked by insanely simple things even. Like the Killing Curse being blocked by hitting pretty much any object in the way.

[Hopeless]

Ah, damn you, expanded universe. Tutaminis. Energy Control abilities taught in Jedi 101 and used to explain how Yoda caught Force Lightning with his bare hands.

If Vader were a master of this technique then every spell cast on him would potentially only make him stronger. But, then again, so would have the Force Lightning attack used by Palpatine to kill him. Vader may have used this to block Solo's blaster attacks in Cloud City, but that's apparently up for debate given his legendarily indestructible glove and cybernetic arm.

When I first saw that as a kid, I assumed he was using the Force to protect himself. Then, after learning it was an artificial hand, that it was either just damn tough material or had a miniaturized deflector shield.

Wookipedia seems to be split on the blaster-blocking between Tutaminis powers and the Mandalorian Crushgaunt.

If Vader actually is a master of the Force Absorb, then that would mean his defenses actually DO match Voldemorts. That evens things up greatly.

But why, then, why he die from an energy attack?

He didn't, do you honestly think Palpatine would give him that new cybernetic body armour without adding a few optional extras to protect him if Vader actually turned against him?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I would love to argue about Fiendfyre I really would, but like I said before I only have the vaguest idea on what it actually is so I can say anything.

I will however point out that the HP universe seems to be full of things that are 'unblockable' or 'indestructible' which are then promptly blocked and destroyed. Some are blocked by insanely simple things even. Like the Killing Curse being blocked by hitting pretty much any object in the way.

You see, Avada Kedavra has no save, but it still requires a touch attack. Dumbledore is smart and remembers that the AC bonus from cover counts against (non-incorporeal) touch attacks.

[Fragenstein]

I would love to argue about Fiendfyre I really would, but like I said before I only have the vaguest idea on what it actually is so I can say anything.

I will however point out that the HP universe seems to be full of things that are 'unblockable' or 'indestructible' which are then promptly blocked and destroyed. Some are blocked by insanely simple things even. Like the Killing Curse being blocked by hitting pretty much any object in the way.

Yeah, Avada Kedavra gets blocked by statues, can be dodged and at one point fails to kill an animated construct. If the Tutaminis abilities count as Protego, then the spell should actually overwhelm them.

If the light saber blade itself counts as a physical barrier, then it might block the spell.

That still doesn't get you around a room-sized Immobulus spell. Area affect, can probably be blocked by Protego - which might include Vader's theorized Tutaminis.

But Immobulus also affects muggle technology to the point of even locking up electronics. Clearly, any Force Absorb that Vader had mastered was unable to protect his arm, otherwise he wouldn't have lost his hand to Luke.

So... area affect Immobulus to lock up Vader's arms, legs and rebreather even if he's able to keep his own flesh from being affected. He's boned. Winner: Voldemort.

Everything Vader has, the wizard can match and more. Voldemort has 360 degree protection spells that don't require concentration to maintain. Vader might have the ability to absorb spell energy, but he's shown limited ability to do so if at all. Otherwise he has to actively block attacks.

Voldemort has mobility, invisibility and quite possibly a way to thwart Force Procognition through Occlumency. He has a greater command of the battlefield and better reflexes. He has a greater variety of indirect attacks including incendiaries, instant pitfalls, explosives and glue traps. He has area affect attacks.

His greatest weakness is his wand, and as an experienced duelist would be used to people trying to take it away. There are a myriad of spells used in the books to make items difficult to destroy -- only the kids and Hagrid get to see their own wands broken. Never mind that the movie had Harry snapping the Elder Wand like a twig. That was the movie. The books required that it be hidden away as it was too difficult to destroy.

The wizard has more defenses, better defenses and more attacks -- including several instant kills that Vader lacks. Vader wins only if he gets a lucky disarm or manages to catch Voldemort within melee range.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, Avada Kedavra gets blocked by statues, can be dodged and at one point fails to kill an animated construct. If the Tutaminis abilities count as Protego, then the spell should actually overwhelm them.

If the light saber blade itself counts as a physical barrier, then it might block the spell.

That still doesn't get you around a room-sized Immobulus spell. Area affect, can probably be blocked by Protego - which might include Vader's theorized Tutaminis.

But Immobulus also affects muggle technology to the point of even locking up electronics. Clearly, any Force Absorb that Vader had mastered was unable to protect his arm, otherwise he wouldn't have lost his hand to Luke.

So... area affect Immobulus to lock up Vader's arms, legs and rebreather even if he's able to keep his own flesh from being affected. He's boned. Winner: Voldemort.

Everything Vader has, the wizard can match and more. Voldemort has 360 degree protection spells that don't require concentration to maintain. Vader might have the ability to absorb spell energy, but he's shown limited ability to do so if at all. Otherwise he has to actively block attacks.

Voldemort has mobility, invisibility and quite possibly a way to thwart Force Procognition through Occlumency. He has a greater command of the battlefield and better reflexes. He has a greater variety of indirect attacks including incendiaries, instant pitfalls, explosives and glue traps. He has area affect attacks.

His greatest weakness is his wand, and as an experienced duelist would be used to people trying to take it away. There are a myriad of spells used in the books to make items difficult to destroy -- only the kids and Hagrid get to see their own wands broken. Never mind that the movie had Harry snapping the Elder Wand like a twig. That was the movie. The books required that it be hidden away as it was too difficult to destroy.

The wizard has more defenses, better defenses and more attacks -- including several instant kills that Vader lacks. Vader wins only if he gets a lucky disarm or manages to catch Voldemort within melee range.

Most of those spells are slow in comparison though. Vader can just use force choke or can just removed the air around Voldemort if he can't hit him directly. Similarly there are example of Jedi using the force to breath when otherwise unable. And Force Choke disables opponents fast. We see it drop opponents in a few seconds. Similarly Vader can throw his lightsaber and animate it to just keep attacking. Not to mention throwing whatever else is around to kill or distract Voldemort.

Remember in that fight against Luke (pretty much all of them come to think of it) Vader wasn't trying to kill him but was trying to provoke him into falling to the dark side. Subconsciously he just didn't want to hurt his son. That puts him at a pretty big disadvantage in a fight.

As for Vader being slower after becoming a cyborg, eh. We don't see him run sure. When does he need to? His walking seems to let him keep up with whoever he's fighting at the time and he uses the force to disarm and disable his opponent.

I don't see how Occulmancy would disable Force Precog. It's not exactly reading his mind, it's the force warning him what's going to happen.

[Xondoure]

Okay, stepping in again as I have calmed down considerably. And no, I don't think force absorb is going to cut it with Sectumsempra.

But really, remember that lightning barage in the films when Voldy got the elder wand? (Which did not obey him at the time, so normal wand power.) Seems like more than enough to kill Vader. Or hell, just don't use the energy attacks. What's vader going to do in a war of attrition? Cause as I see it the Force user will tire out first. Because here we get to the cheapest part of the HP verse; spell casting is all but free.

Edit: If I were voldemort I'd simply fly out of any possible melee range and stay there. Then I'd summon a dementor. :smalltongue:

If that isn't allowed I'd probably just cast an emp ward, or whatever it is that shorts out electricity in HP.

Allowing for some supposed invulnerability to that that seemed lacking in RotJ, I'd swish and flick heavy objects at Vader. Contrary to popular belief force users really don't have the final say in telekinetics. And it seems to be incredibly draining for them at the best of times. If I needed to throw Vaders guard off I'd just cast imperio. Even if Vader makes his will save that leaves him distracted long enough to get a solid hit in.

[Fragenstein]

I don't see how Occulmancy would disable Force Precog. It's not exactly reading his mind, it's the force warning him what's going to happen.

It's all about mental shrouding. Force Precognition only works because the Force moves through and makes up the entire universe. It's this connection that allows a Jedi or a Sith to predict what's about to happen, much like Vader was able to sense Obi Wan's presence on the first Death Star.

Luke was able to protect himself from discovery while hiding on the second Death Star by shielding his mind. Vader had to provoke him into attacking with taunts about his sister, and still managed to be surprised by a diving Luke.

Yoda himself repeatedly claims that the dark side is shrouded and thus makes the future difficult to read. If Occlumency comes off as being very related.

However, if you want to place an iron-clad division between Occlumency as a simple mental shield and Dark Side Shrouding as a deeper ability, then I'm confident that I can come up with a spell that equates.

"And Force Choke disables opponents fast. We see it drop opponents in a few seconds."

In a high-powered wizard duel, 'a few seconds' is enough time to cast multiple spells or Apparate out of the choke. Imagine an olympic Ping-Pong player taking a few seconds to return a serve.

"Similarly Vader can throw his lightsaber and animate it to just keep attacking. Not to mention throwing whatever else is around to kill or distract Voldemort."

As stated before, wizards have spells that prevent them from being hit by flying objects or taking comand of inanimate objects or destroying same, banishing same or freezing them into place or switching them off.

It's just not a fair fight. Voldemort has a bottomless tool chest of solutions to every Sith problem. I saw Star Wars back in 1977 before even knowing what A New Hope meant. I've worshipped Vader as possibly the coolest villain ever to stalk the screen. I still know that world breaking, Deus Ex Magica is going to take him down.

[Chen]

Okay, stepping in again as I have calmed down considerably. And no, I don't think force absorb is going to cut it with Sectumsempra.

So Voldemort's protection works against all force powers, but none of Vader's work against Voldemort's magic? That seems fair. In putting forth the whole Force/Magic transperency I don't see why we assume one side's powers completely stop the other's but the opposite does not apply.

[Fragenstein]

So Voldemort's protection works against all force powers, but none of Vader's work against Voldemort's magic? That seems fair. In putting forth the whole Force/Magic transperency I don't see why we assume one side's powers completely stop the other's but the opposite does not apply.

Jedi and Sith don't seem nearly as big on defense as wizards. For the most part, we see them blocking attacks with their light sabers, which require a single point to deflect. It's very rare that we see a Force user simply employing a constant immunity to energy attacks. If it were that easy then Order 66 would have failed miserably.

Also, Sectumsempra has no clear transmission of energy. It simply causes a deep, lethal cut to be drawn along its target path. Maybe there's an unseen broadcast of power that Vader's Force sensitivity could pick up on, allowing him to move his saber along with the spell and keep it blocked. Maybe not.

We need to move back to whether or not the Force based Tutaminis skills can absorb any and all spell energy and whether nor not Vader actually has enough mastery of them to protect both himself and the technology he so depends upon. Otherwise, Vodemort's area effect spells are going to bypass the light saber defense entirely.

Concussive explosions, fire, electrical storms and paralytic waves are all things that Voldemort can conjure up around Vader. Plus Xondure has a point in that Voldemort can summon allies to help him out. Sith have no related abilities.

If all else fails, then we're back to teleporting out while Fiendfyre consumes the entire room, everything in it and whatever building they're fighting within.

[Xondoure]

So Voldemort's protection works against all force powers, but none of Vader's work against Voldemort's magic? That seems fair. In putting forth the whole Force/Magic transperency I don't see why we assume one side's powers completely stop the other's but the opposite does not apply.

Because this isn't a fair fight. The Harry Potter universe has some pretty damn nasty powers, and Vader, even as Anakin, is severely restricted by being a melee combatant.

This is fighter vs. wizard, except it's more like paladin vs. wizard with no spell per day limit and instant cast times. (Admittedly few ninth level spells.)

Edit: Basically force powers aren't that great. Eleven year old wizards learn how to maneuver objects better, and flying + teleporting trumps magic jumping. Precog is awesome, but against a wall of cut isn't going to do much.

[Traab]

Does voldemort even know sectumsempra? I thought that was snapes personal spell? Even if he does know it, how well does it cut through armor? Also, it seems to me that a lot of you guys are assuming that voldemort will go straight for the aoe/invisible spells, when in reality he most likely wouldnt waste time doing anything unusual, he would likely go for crucios, ak, and other fairly standard, point and shoot type spells that move slower than a blaster bolt. This gives vader the chance to make his move while fairly easily blocking/avoiding/absorbing, whatever voldy is using.

Im not saying its beyond possible that voldemort would figure it out in time, im just saying that its hardly cut and dry. If vaders force precog tells him trying to block an ak with his hand or lightsaber is a bad idea, he will either duck out of the way, or float debris in its path to take the hit for him.


Eleven year old wizards learn how to maneuver objects better

No they dont. They learn to levitate things. Thats pretty much it. I dont think they get any sort of fine control over the movement of random objects. As far as I recall, they can float, summon, or banish items. Each is a different spell, and I dont think its something you can casually use to replicate telekinesis while still at hogwarts.

[Fragenstein]

Does voldemort even know sectumsempra? I thought that was snapes personal spell? Even if he does know it, how well does it cut through armor? Also, it seems to me that a lot of you guys are assuming that voldemort will go straight for the aoe/invisible spells...

Voldemort uses this spell to kill Snape towards the final battle. Further, it only affects living tissue and seems to bypass clothes in producing the slashes. There's a good chance that it would ignore armor and allow for a quick beheading.

Unless, of course, Vader counts as being Undead. In that case he'd show wounds that had no effect on him.

But this also demonstrates how Voldemort does have a rutheless side, as well. He doesn't toy with Snape at all. When he needs him to die, he just kills him. And he doesn't always do that with Avada Kedavra.

[Xondoure]

Voldemort uses this spell to kill Snape towards the final battle. Further, it only affects living tissue and seems to bypass clothes in producing the slashes. There's a good chance that it would ignore armor and allow for a quick beheading.

Unless, of course, Vader counts as being Undead. In that case he'd show wounds that had no effect on him.

But this also demonstrates how Voldemort does have a rutheless side, as well. He doesn't toy with Snape at all. When he needs him to die, he just kills him. And he doesn't always do that with Avada Kedavra.

I imagine he used that spell for the poeticism of Snape having invented it. But yes, if AK was somehow absorbed (I don't see how, it's function is to end things. It's not just energy, it's death. Whatever it hits, even if the first strike just lands of the armor, should die or be destroyed) Voldemort could simply target Vader's flesh directly. He'd have to score a direct hit on Vader's head, which could be hard against a Precog, but I've mentioned before how easy it would be to keep Vader stunned, even if only for half a second (here's a fun one, petrificus totalus.)

[Traab]

I imagine he used that spell for the poeticism of Snape having invented it. But yes, if AK was somehow absorbed (I don't see how, it's function is to end things. It's not just energy, it's death. Whatever it hits, even if the first strike just lands of the armor, should die or be destroyed) Voldemort could simply target Vader's flesh directly. He'd have to score a direct hit on Vader's head, which could be hard against a Precog, but I've mentioned before how easy it would be to keep Vader stunned, even if only for half a second (here's a fun one, petrificus totalus.)

Unless vader pulls off his helmet, he doesnt HAVE any exposed flesh for voldemort to hit. He is in a full body life support suit. Also, one thing to add in, dont count out vader if he loses the suit. if you recall, he lost a hand, got electrocuted, and yanked off his helmet after a lengthy grab and drag by luke and was still able to have a nice goodbye speech for his son. I dont think anything but an instant kill will stop vader before he does whatever he is trying to do. Im seriously picturing a full on saber charge, he takes an ak to the chest that actually works, and as he falls his sword is aimed to cut voldy in half. :smallbiggrin: Mutual kill.

[Xondoure]

Unless vader pulls off his helmet, he doesnt HAVE any exposed flesh for voldemort to hit. He is in a full body life support suit. Also, one thing to add in, dont count out vader if he loses the suit. if you recall, he lost a hand, got electrocuted, and yanked off his helmet after a lengthy grab and drag by luke and was still able to have a nice goodbye speech for his son. I dont think anything but an instant kill will stop vader before he does whatever he is trying to do. Im seriously picturing a full on saber charge, he takes an ak to the chest that actually works, and as he falls his sword is aimed to cut voldy in half. :smallbiggrin: Mutual kill.

Except that Sectumsempra seems to be a straight flesh only ability. Meaning it moves through everything else as if it weren't there.

[ChaosLord29]

Except that Sectumsempra seems to be a straight flesh only ability. Meaning it moves through everything else as if it weren't there.

It's never really established that a protego or other form of shield spell wouldn't block Sectumsempra, and I'm still firmly of the mind that a shield of the Force could be used to deflect magical spells (with the exception of AK). I would even go so far to point out that most curses in the Harry potter universe seem to have a counter-curse. Not that it seems to be as easy as dropping a spell of the equivalent level or paying two blue mana, but why shouldn't Vader be able to use the Force to block spells in a more subtle manner? After all, that's how Jedi protect themselves from Force Choke.

You might even go a step further. There's a Force Technique that allows you to cut your opponent off from the Force, as long as you can keep it up. Sort of an anti-magic field of Force Powers. It's not a stretch to say that Vader couldn't use either of these tactics to shut down Voldemort's spell casting in which case you've got a case of Elf vs Dragon, rather than Paladin vs Wizard.

[Xondoure]

Because I hate EU BS. Or more relevantly, because Vader shows no evidence of such an ability.

And force pushing against a spell won't work, force absorb might, but then what about stuff like levicorpus? Which he could get out of. But would slow him down enough to land a better hit in. All Voldy has to do is break Vader's concentration for a split second and boom. By by Annie.

Oh, and since when is Vader comparable to a Dragon, in any sense other than second to the big bad?

[hamishspence]

Voldemort uses this spell to kill Snape towards the final battle.

As I recall, he just gave Nagini the order to bite Snape.

[Emmerask]

As I recall, he just gave Nagini the order to bite Snape.

Yep that is what happened, he just trapped Snape in the impenetrable orb with Nagini in it...
But I wouldn´t put it past the ****ty movie that is Deathly Hallows to change that up too (the movies are pretty much irrelevant, cause they have very little to do with Harry Potter tbh)

[Chirios]

I don't get why people rate Potterverse wizards so highly. They're incompetent, they're underpowered compared to most verses magic users, and they're just generally idiots. Voldemort is one of the stupidest big bads in all of fiction, and that's saying something.

A wizard is basically a human with a wand. They haven't got superspeed, they aren't super agile, they aren't super strong. This means that even the best of wizards can only cast a spell at the same rough speed at which an Olympic level boxer can throw a punch. Their combat spells aren't instantaneous, and so can be dodged. In fact if I remember my mythology correctly, none of their spells act instantaneously.

Imo, any fight between Voldemort and Vader would amount to Vader force pushing/ force choking Voldemort, throwing said idiot into a wall before chopping his head off.

[hamishspence]

Yep that is what happened, he just trapped Snape in the impenetrable orb with Nagini in it...


I've seen the movie- aside from the lack of cage for Nagini, the scene is the same. In the book I think the orb was just moved close enough to Snape for Nagini to bite him through the bars.

[Xondoure]

Well then I suppose I misremembered. And Chirios. It really doesn't matter that magic is underpowered in comparison to other universes. It is still magic and they can pull it off at pretty ridiculous speeds in comparison to most settings. Also, I'd say seeing as advanced wizards only have to point, they can throw spells at a significantly faster pace then it takes to throw a punch. Not mentioning how ridiculously overpowered they become given prep time. (felix felicis anyone)

Voldemort did not understand the prophecy, and let his pride get in the way. That is the only smudge on an otherwise perfect record. And it is one that Vader shares I might add.

[leafman]

Couldn't Vader skip the slow Force Choke and go straight for the Force Crush? First move of combat Force Crush, no floating objects, no time consuming strangling, just crunch. Would Voldy even be able to block it? He doesn't seem the type to open with a defensive spell.

As to Vader not being able to take Voldemort's wand, who says Vader has to take it? A little force manipulation, and Voldemort has a snapped wand, no harder than wrenching machinery off walls to throw at your son.

[Prime32]

Well then I suppose I misremembered. And Chirios. It really doesn't matter that magic is underpowered in comparison to other universes. It is still magicSo the Force loses because it isn't called magic (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicByAnyOtherName)?


Not mentioning how ridiculously overpowered they become given prep time. (felix felicis anyone)Except that wizards aren't actually capable of this, since there are no instances of anyone using Felix Felicis for a fight even in the history books. For all we know you can only use it once per lifetime, or some property of the stuff prevents you from thinking of it. But even if the reason is just "they're idiots", it's still a reason.


Voldemort did not understand the prophecy, and let his pride get in the way. That is the only smudge on an otherwise perfect record. And it is one that Vader shares I might add.Voldemort also underestimates anyone who isn't a wizard, grossly misunderstands the motivations of his own men on multiple occasions, spends time gloating and taunting his opponents, and insists on carrying out his plans in a needlessly elaborate and dramatic fashion (like trying to use six legendary artefacts as Horcruxes when one random rock would do the same thing and be harder to locate).

[ChaosLord29]

Because I hate EU BS. Or more relevantly, because Vader shows no evidence of such an ability.

Point taken, it would be wrong to assume that Vader has access to the vast array of Force abilities demonstrated throughout the entirety of the expanded universe.


And force pushing against a spell won't work, force absorb might, but then what about stuff like levicorpus? Which he could get out of. But would slow him down enough to land a better hit in. All Voldy has to do is break Vader's concentration for a split second and boom. By by Annie.

We know he can put up a shield of Force energy (not kinetic) since that's universally demonstrated amongst Force users of the 'Jed Knight' calibre. It's one of the fundamental ways in which one Jedi or Sith defends themselves against the directed for abilities of another. It can be overwhelmed, or negated by more subtle applications of the Force, but I see no reason why such a technique shouldn't block Sectum Sempra.


Oh, and since when is Vader comparable to a Dragon, in any sense other than second to the big bad?


Because if you take away Voldemort's magic, he's just a 70 year old Englishman in surprisingly good health, despite not having done any kind of exercise for nigh on 60 years (I'm assuming he had recess at the Orphanage). He can thank his wizard's uncanny vitality that he's not overweight, arthritic or suffering from a host of other ailments, but there's no reason to think he could even win a footrace against Potter.

Take away the Force and Vader is still a trained killing machine in a suit of powered armor, capable of crushing a man's throat with one hand and wielding a weapon that can cut through steel like so much butter.

Maybe not Elf/Dragon, more like scholar/knight.


Well then I suppose I misremembered. And Chirios. It really doesn't matter that magic is underpowered in comparison to other universes. It is still magic and they can pull it off at pretty ridiculous speeds in comparison to most settings. Also, I'd say seeing as advanced wizards only have to point, they can throw spells at a significantly faster pace then it takes to throw a punch. Not mentioning how ridiculously overpowered they become given prep time. (felix felicis anyone)

Voldemort did not understand the prophecy, and let his pride get in the way. That is the only smudge on an otherwise perfect record. And it is one that Vader shares I might add.

Even if we assume that Voldemort has the fastest reflexes and spell casting times of any wizard in the Potter universe, you still have to admit that Vader is going to be that much faster, thanks to his precognition and Force enhanced reaction times. Remember that it's two fold, the Force allows the user to see things split seconds before they happen and the Force flows through them, directing them to act faster than any other mundane human. Wizards may not be mundane, but they demonstrate no such abilities themselves.

I think you posited the best chance Voldemort has when you pointed out his ability to fly. It's honestly something I hadn't thought of. Using that he could escape the range of most of Vader's Force techniques and even the odds a bit where mobility is concerned. I still think Vader could defend himself pretty handily from the spells Voldemort would the direct at him, but any time he Force jumped high enough to strike Voldemort would be a gamble.

[Xondoure]

I'm still going to put forward legilimens as a possible balancing act to precog. Vader has never seemed particularly competent at keeping his emotions in check.

Basic principle remains. Fly out of range, hit Vader with a mind control spell, than send something else his way while he's fighting that off. Rinse and repeat. All else fails nuke the area and apparate out.

[Jahkaivah]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c226/saxcsa/Amon_in_the_Revelation.png

Amon comes out of nowhere and takes Vader's force and Voldemort's magic.

Now it's a fair fight.

[Xondoure]

Well in that case Amon wins because he's still in the can't lose arc of his story.

[ChaosLord29]

I'm still going to put forward legilimens as a possible balancing act to precog. Vader has never seemed particularly competent at keeping his emotions in check.


I think you're missing a key point about Precognition vs Legilimens. Even assuming Voldemort can read Vader's mind, all he can tell is that Vader is anticipating his actions (including reading his mind) split seconds before even Voldemort knows what he is going to do. It would be like playing chess, while your opponent knows what your next few moves are, and you know that he knows. It doesn't really give you a huge leg up, because even if you try and bluff, he still knows exactly what is going to happen after the bluff. Vader doesn't know that Voldemort is going to cast AK at him, all he knows is that the wizard is going to cast a spell at him and he has to either block it with the Force or dodge out of the way.

As for Vader not being able to conceal his mind very well, I have no idea where you're drawing that from. I can cite multiple Expanded Universe examples, none of which are particularly 'over-powered' but to keep things fair, lets just use the films. Luke, undeniably knows Vader better than he knows himself, reading not necessarily his thoughts, but feeling the good buried deep within him. That's born of Luke's close bond to his father, and the man who nearly killed him on several occasions.

Even by the Return of the Jedi though Luke is still relatively inexperienced by Jedi standards, especially compared to Palpatine, who is not only a powerful Force user, but the resident expert on keeping his thoughts from being read, and reading the minds of others. Even he, could not sense the turmoil in Vader, or his intentions towards his newly discovered son. Or what about Obi-wan? Another experienced user of the Force who knew Anakin arguably better than anyone else, yet could no longer sense good in him or foresee, that in the end Vader would prove so good as to save his son.


Basic principle remains. Fly out of range, hit Vader with a mind control spell, than send something else his way while he's fighting that off. Rinse and repeat. All else fails nuke the area and apparate out.

Still definitely Voldemort's best shot. I'm not quite prepared to give it to him however, on the grounds that Voldemort doesn't quite possess the keen tactical mind that would immediately conclude this to be the best strategy. Odds are good, he's never been in any sort of melee combat in his life, nor really even been exposed to it, and when confronted with someone charging towards him swinging a lightsaber, it's difficult to say whether his first thought would be to flee into the sky, or too attempt to blast his opponent into oblivion. I'm inclined to say the latter, if only because Voldemort never really makes tactical use of the flying thing except when his opponent (Harry during the escape at the beginning of book 7) is also airborne.

Also, we know that their are plenty of Force Techniques that require only indirect line of sight and aren't based off of proximity. Vader uses Force choke on Admiral Ozzel from his meditation chamber. Now, if they're both aboard the Executor, and Ozzel is on the bridge, that puts him several kilometers away from Vader, and yet the Sith Lord has no trouble crushing his windpipe. If Ozzel is in fact on another Star Destroyer in Death Squadron (a distinct possibility), then Vader is executing him at the range of several thousand kilometers using nothing but the picture of Ozzel on the viewscreen for a medium. Quite a feat, even by wizarding standards.

[Emmerask]

Except that wizards aren't actually capable of this, since there are no instances of anyone using Felix Felicis for a fight even in the history books. For all we know you can only use it once per lifetime, or some property of the stuff prevents you from thinking of it. But even if the reason is just "they're idiots", it's still a reason.

Actually it was used for fighting in Half Blood Prince by Hermoiny, Ron Ginny and others during the fight below the Tower (or at least I think it was used because Harry gave them the potion to use beforehand).
And its poisonous when used too often in too short a time plus one of the hardest potions to produce ie I would guess only a handful of master potioneers could create it.

[Traab]

I still think vaders main chance at victory will be how long it takes voldemort to realize that direct damage spells arent the way to go. I say we assume vaders force absorb and saber combo is capable of deflecting/absorbing any direct bolts of magic, if the fight takes long enough, voldemort will start going for the more esoteric and area of effect types of spells, like feindfire, transfiguration of the environment, other spells to that effect. Basically, attack him indirectly with spells that he cant just reflect with a saber.

On the opposite side, if voldemort pulls off the fly technique, if I were vader, I would start floating numerous smallish rocks and launching them at voldemort several at a time to break his concentration. It may work, it may not, I know his shields do well at blocking magical energy, not as certain about force created railgun shots. :p Ok, im sure they wouldnt be launched that hard, but if they can hit with enough force to break through a shield, or even crack him in the face, it could bring voldemort back to earth, or at least keep him off balance somewhat so he cant just do strafing runs with impunity.

*EDIT* Also, im not sure how much vader can do at once with the force, but he has line of sight on voldemort, which lets him break out force chokes and direct telekinesis attempts. How much can vader do at the same time, and how much can voldemort BLOCK at the same time? If voldemort is fending off chokes, stones being flung at his head, and having to fight against being pulled down to earth at the same time, it could be too much for him.

[ChaosLord29]

I still think vaders main chance at victory will be how long it takes voldemort to realize that direct damage spells arent the way to go. I say we assume vaders force absorb and saber combo is capable of deflecting/absorbing any direct bolts of magic, if the fight takes long enough, voldemort will start going for the more esoteric and area of effect types of spells, like feindfire, transfiguration of the environment, other spells to that effect. Basically, attack him indirectly with spells that he cant just reflect with a saber.

I'm inclined to agree with you on all three counts. Firstly, Voldemort, while an expert duelist amongst wizards does not routinely demonstrate a mind for tactical maneuvers and strategy. Far from it in fact. Despite his grasp on the laws of magic and whatnot, Voldemort seems to share the weakness f almost every wizard in the HP universe in that he is unfamiliar and easily surprised by new spells, techniques, and that which he does not understand.


On the opposite side, if voldemort pulls off the fly technique, if I were vader, I would start floating numerous smallish rocks and launching them at voldemort several at a time to break his concentration. It may work, it may not, I know his shields do well at blocking magical energy, not as certain about force created railgun shots. :p Ok, im sure they wouldnt be launched that hard, but if they can hit with enough force to break through a shield, or even crack him in the face, it could bring voldemort back to earth, or at least keep him off balance somewhat so he cant just do strafing runs with impunity

While a straight force push at this point is out of the question with Voldemort flying around, you point out that their are several Force techniques we know Vader to be an expert in that require only LoS: Force Choke (and it's more lethal combat variants), and telekinetic combat.


*EDIT* Also, im not sure how much vader can do at once with the force, but he has line of sight on voldemort, which lets him break out force chokes and direct telekinesis attempts. How much can vader do at the same time, and how much can voldemort BLOCK at the same time? If voldemort is fending off chokes, stones being flung at his head, and having to fight against being pulled down to earth at the same time, it could be too much for him.

To answer your questions as best I can, both Vader and Voldemort demonstrate a certain expertise at multi-tasking both attack and defense. Voldemort during his duel with Dumbledore and later while facing down a trio of the Order of the Phoenix's best wizards. Vader too though demonstrates a similar expertise in his duel against Obi-wan, and against Luke 2 films later, using both offensive and defensive Force and saber techniques.

[Xondoure]

RE: Legilimens: No, it's not like the chess scenario. Because Vader's moves would be equally forecasted to Voldy. So we're back to standard fare Jedi fighting, where both can predict the others moves, and it's who works fastest.

So to finish off.

Voldemort flies up high. Voldemort smacks Vader's head around with Imperio long enough to distract Vader. Voldemort hits him hard. Force tele kinetics that are all but the most basic push and pull seem to require concentration. Concentration Voldemort does not have to give.

[Chirios]

Well then I suppose I misremembered. And Chirios. It really doesn't matter that magic is underpowered in comparison to other universes. It is still magic and they can pull it off at pretty ridiculous speeds in comparison to most settings.

There's no evidence for this statement in the books at all.


Also, I'd say seeing as advanced wizards only have to point, they can throw spells at a significantly faster pace then it takes to throw a punch.

They don't just have to point, they have to point, think the words in their head, then do a sequence of little flicks and pulls depending on what the spell is. Just like a boxer has to think where he's going to hit, then throw his arm forward.

They're people with sticks, take the stick away, break the stick and they become useless. If they had any sort of speed or physical advantage they would use them.


Voldemort did not understand the prophecy, and let his pride get in the way. That is the only smudge on an otherwise perfect record. And it is one that Vader shares I might add.

LOL. Harry gave Voldemort a detailed explanation about why he couldn't kill him using the elder wand, so why didn't Voldemort just, oh I don't know, strange the boy? Or use someone elses wand? Or stab him? Or do any one of a billion things that would've led to Harry's death?

Because he is a moron.

[ChaosLord29]

RE: Legilimens: No, it's not like the chess scenario. Because Vader's moves would be equally forecasted to Voldy. So we're back to standard fare Jedi fighting, where both can predict the others moves, and it's who works fastest.

Hold on a minute, you haven't even given a justification as to why Voldemort should still be able to read Vader's mind sufficiently, and even then it shouldn't negate precognition.

If one party can predict the other's actions and the other can read that party's thoughts, then all that means is that the latter is able to know that his actions are precogitated. It doesn't allow him to negate the precognition by any stretch.


Voldemort flies up high. Voldemort smacks Vader's head around with Imperio long enough to distract Vader. Voldemort hits him hard. Force tele kinetics that are all but the most basic push and pull seem to require concentration. Concentration Voldemort does not have to give.

Or Voldemort attempts to fly away and Vader hits him with Force Choke, meaning Voldemort must now either shield himself from the ability or begin/continue his offensive. Vader meanwhile is already anticipating whatever Vodlemort decides to do by moving in to strike him with a well landed Force Jump and a debilitating strike from his lightsaber.

[ThirdEmperor]

Vader's got this.

HP universe wizards might be powerful, but they're slow. It might seem relatively simple to point a wand at someone and say 'Avada Kadavera', but in combat that's a crucial few seconds slower than pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger or extending a hand and thinking "I want to crush the life out of your puny little lungs now".

Jedi on the other hand are very, very fast, considering they can block blaster shots, which can't be easy even with precog powers. Pretty much only ways I can really see this fight happening is;

A. Vader force-chokes Voldermort before the latter can get off a spell,

or B. Voldemort wins initiative and being the uncreative moron he is, throws an Avada Kadavera at Vader 'cause that's pretty much his solution to everything. Vader promptly deflects said spell and force-chokes Voldy before he can cast another.

[Hubert]

Maybe we should add the following rule to the "versus" threads:

In a A vs. B scenario, assume that:

1) Both opponents will act intelligently and efficiently with the goal to kill or incapacitate their enemy. Even if A is known to boast for 10 minutes before doing anything and B always forgets all the attacks he has at his disposal.

2) Bot opponents will be given, previous to the encounter, a detailed overview of their opponent's capabilities. E.g., Voldy will get to view the Star Wars movies, and Vader will read the HP books.

I mean, evaluating the interactions of different powers (force vs. magic) is already very subjective and open to interpretation. Additional layers of "Voldy is a moron so he will never do that" or "Vader can do that in theory but never uses it in practice" only make the issue more subjective.

[Devonix]

Maybe we should add the following rule to the "versus" threads:

In a A vs. B scenario, assume that:

1) Both opponents will act intelligently and efficiently with the goal to kill or incapacitate their enemy. Even if A is known to boast for 10 minutes before doing anything and B always forgets all the attacks he has at his disposal.

2) Bot opponents will be given, previous to the encounter, a detailed overview of their opponent's capabilities. E.g., Voldy will get to view the Star Wars movies, and Vader will read the HP books.

I mean, evaluating the interactions of different powers (force vs. magic) is already very subjective and open to interpretation. Additional layers of "Voldy is a moron so he will never do that" or "Vader can do that in theory but never uses it in practice" only make the issue more subjective.

But then it stops being a Versus battle between the two characters and starts being a battle between random abilities present in those universes wielded by the fans.

[Aotrs Commander]

But then it stops being a Versus battle between the two characters and starts being a battle between random abilities present in those universes wielded by the fans.

Exactly.

The characters have to act in a manner to which they presented (especially if they are villains) or you're not actually comparing characters, you're comparing universe mechanics.

[ChaosLord29]

Maybe we should add the following rule to the "versus" threads:

In a A vs. B scenario, assume that:

1) Both opponents will act intelligently and efficiently with the goal to kill or incapacitate their enemy. Even if A is known to boast for 10 minutes before doing anything and B always forgets all the attacks he has at his disposal.

2) Bot opponents will be given, previous to the encounter, a detailed overview of their opponent's capabilities. E.g., Voldy will get to view the Star Wars movies, and Vader will read the HP books.

I mean, evaluating the interactions of different powers (force vs. magic) is already very subjective and open to interpretation. Additional layers of "Voldy is a moron so he will never do that" or "Vader can do that in theory but never uses it in practice" only make the issue more subjective.


But then it stops being a Versus battle between the two characters and starts being a battle between random abilities present in those universes wielded by the fans.

I'm inclined to agree with both of you, so let's try and compromise:

Character flaws are relevant to the battle as are character advantages, (i.e. Voldemort's usual underestimation of muggles, and Vader's tendency to choke first and ask questions later). For the purpose of the fight however, we're going to assume no monologuing or pontificating at length, since that's usually something forced on the villain by the plot anyway (Giving the protagonist a chance to ready himself or pull some trick out of his sleeve).

Second, and I really should have included this in the original rules, opponents know nothing about one another, except what they can gauge of one another in the matter of moments before the 'duel' begins. We're looking to see who would win in a fight, not who the better grand strategist is (and even more subjective endeavor).

[Xondoure]

Vader's got this.

HP universe wizards might be powerful, but they're slow. It might seem relatively simple to point a wand at someone and say 'Avada Kadavera', but in combat that's a crucial few seconds slower than pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger or extending a hand and thinking "I want to crush the life out of your puny little lungs now".

Jedi on the other hand are very, very fast, considering they can block blaster shots, which can't be easy even with precog powers. Pretty much only ways I can really see this fight happening is;

A. Vader force-chokes Voldermort before the latter can get off a spell,

or B. Voldemort wins initiative and being the uncreative moron he is, throws an Avada Kadavera at Vader 'cause that's pretty much his solution to everything. Vader promptly deflects said spell and force-chokes Voldy before he can cast another.

Force choke can be countered. And quite honestly, I've only ever see it used on the weak willed, so I don't think it's a very effective technique.

Voldemort on the other hand has a total petrification spell.

Seriously people first years require great sweeping wand motions and verbal components. Powerful wizards in the setting barely have to flick and think the spell allowed. That's pretty darn fast and there's no real stamina restraint on HP spell casting. Most force powers meanwhile take a lot of concentration to perform. Concentration Voldemort doesn't have to give.

And yes I can give a reason Voldemort could use legilimens. Because the only person who never succumbed is Snape. Who, in a lot of ways, is a Vader equivalent who is not wrapped around the dark lord's little finger. Vader get's manipulated by everyone, including his own son. His emotions lie raw and open for the whole world to see. And you're telling me the most advanced legilimens on the planet won't be able to predict his movements?

Because that is what it would do. Vader knows what he is going to do before he moves his body in all instances other than dodging, which is mostly reflex. This means all of Vader's attacks will be telegraphed in advance. Which is all he needs to set up protego or whatever, and I already have a reason Vader can't dodge below.

So again. Voldemort flies away. He then proceeds to cast petrificus totalus or imperio, or levicorpus, and Voldemort is forced to fight off the resulting effect leaving him open to a more direct attack. Because I feel like the power of the spell, let's say he uses his trademark killing curse. Let's be kind about it even. Let's say it hits the lightsaber. The lightsaber is now dead. Rinse and repeat strikes the armor. The armor is now shattered. The third strike hit's the man. The man is now dead.

Avada Kedavra kills things. Yes it can be dodged. Try dodging when you're busy getting mind raped. Voldemort wants to kill someone that isn't Harry then the fight is going to be brutal and efficient. He wants to kill Harry with magic because he is convinced that it is necessary in order for his power base to be cemented. But I will reiterate, he never acts nearly as foolishly against any other foe.

The HPverse is filled with whimsy and the occasionally ridiculous, but treating it as underpowered goes nowhere. It doesn't have much in the form of truly epic level magic but it's strength is in the fact that magic is essentially unlimited and very adaptable.

SW on the other hand. Started out as a rather cool setting where guns didn't shoot straight and the best weapon you could have was a laser sword. They are fantastic movies and Vader makes a much better villain. But honestly people, we never see near the kind of agility that anyone in the prequels had. Vader is an old man with a very powerful sword that can deflect energy weapons. That is considerably less useful against any one not using only energy weapons. Or when one of the energy weapons also happens to be pure death. And therefore not block able without destroying whatever you put in front of it.

[leafman]

My understanding of legilimens is that it takes a good deal of concentration to perform, not something you can do on the fly mid-combat.

The mind is not a book, to be opened at will and examined at leisure. Thoughts are not etched on the inside of skulls, to be perused by any invader. The mind is a complex and many-layered thing... It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their victims and to interpret their findings correctly.
Even a master can only read minds and know what they read is true under certain conditions. Snape doesn't elaborate on what those conditions are but I would guess "trying not to die" wouldn't be one of them. Even if reading thoughts is easier than delving into memories, it would be difficult to pull off in combat. I would equate it to attempting to read the newspaper and play a First Person Shooter at the same time.
Force Precog is akin to spidey-sense, it warns you when you are in danger with enough lead time to react, but it isn't necessarily going to let you view the result of every action you can take.

[Forum Explorer]

We see Vader use force choke to crush high ranking officers throats. How are these people weak willed? Also how would you counter it? Most spells seem to require the ability to speak so it interrupts most spells as well.

As for flying away? Vader can still use force choke, throw objects, throw his lightsaber, or just use force pull or force push.

Now onto force push. We see it destroying droids and throwing them back. So it isn't just moving the target, it's hitting them, hard. Sure the droids are pretty wimpy but even they don't die to falling over. Force push is like getting hit with an invisible battering ram. You go flying and it causes a lot of damage.

Also I keep mentioning this but Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke in any of his duels. He was trying to corrupt him but he did not want to kill his son. He blundered around and basically taunted Luke to try and get him angry.

Don't most spells need to be aimed? You say casting is fast but it really isn't. They usually have to shout out the name of the spell, aim, go throw the necessary motions and then the spell is cast. As far as quick magic goes it isn't that fast in comparison.

We do know Vader can multitask as he sends multiple objects at Luke while still fighting with his lightsaber.

[Xondoure]

At Voldemort's level spells are nonverbal. And again, protego would block most brute force uses of the force if we assume neutrality. Remember that Voldemort can also teleport. Vader landing a single hit in at range given that rather strains my suspension of disbelief.

And legilimens get's used by Voldemort mid combat against Harry when he's fighting Dumbledore. But I'm not advocating that kind of forced use. I'm advocating the constant use of it Vodemort has that allows him to know when people are lying. You can't hide your actions from him.

As for throwing rocks. Well, other than reducto making that hilarious I'll add once more that the Force is really pretty shoddy at Telekinetics. It can do blasts of force just fine but when it comes to picking things up and directing them in any direction other than "to my hand" it seems to take a good deal of concentration. This is all neglecting teleport as an instant out.

Reducto is a pretty fun spell in general. I wonder what that would do to the robotic parts of Vader's armor?

force choke, assuming it can't be blocked and is usable in combat (fighting against Kenobi? Bah, who needs force choke against a guy who kicked my ass so hard I don't have one anymore. I repeat force choke does not really seem like it has any place as a combat ability outside of SW:TOR) Then that simply gives Voldemort a timer before he must distract Vader. Luckily that timer is more than enough to hit him with imperio or confound the guy. Which would conveniently break his concentration leaving Voldemort to then hit him with something harder.

[ChaosLord29]

At Voldemort's level spells are nonverbal. And again, protego would block most brute force uses of the force if we assume neutrality. Remember that Voldemort can also teleport. Vader landing a single hit in at range given that rather strains my suspension of disbelief.

I don't know about all that. Simpler spells definitely, but in his spell duel with Dumbledore in the Ministry he gets pretty melodramatic with the screaming and the wand waving. The bigger 'nuke' spells are you call them seem to be those that require just that sort of extra concentration and elaborate wand waving. I think it's fair to say that even if it doesn't exhaust physical stamina the way using the Force does, Vader and Voldemort are going to be pretty equal where concentration and focus are concerned for simple techniques and more complex ones.

After all, we see Vader tossing around a myriad of objects at Luke without even breaking a sweat, and while the graphics of the day couldn't handle it, we know him to be capable of greater feats of the Force based on his usage as Anakin (Not EU).


And legilimens get's used by Voldemort mid combat against Harry when he's fighting Dumbledore. But I'm not advocating that kind of forced use. I'm advocating the constant use of it Vodemort has that allows him to know when people are lying. You can't hide your actions from him.

Voldemort uses legilimens successfully against his Death Eaters and other easily cowed minions, but Snape fools it for a long time. And Voldemort's use of Legilimens against Harry we know to be more pronounced because of the bond they share. He couldn't do that to just anyone in the middle of a fight because Harry is like a sort of leech on his mind.


As for throwing rocks. Well, other than reducto making that hilarious I'll add once more that the Force is really pretty shoddy at Telekinetics. It can do blasts of force just fine but when it comes to picking things up and directing them in any direction other than "to my hand" it seems to take a good deal of concentration. This is all neglecting teleport as an instant out.

You've got me on Reducto, but can Voldemort cast it in a wave against multiple incoming projectiles? I assume so, but reducing their mass may not be enough.

Teleporting in the HP universe isn't an instant out. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's not Nightcrawler we're talking about here. Aparating requires at least a few seconds of concentration and a clear image of where to go or else you risk splinching. It's not just point and click.

As for the refined use of Force Telekinetics? Look at what Anakin does in Episode II (don't watch the movie, it's horrible, I'll just explain it XD), when he cuts Padme's pair delicately using a knife and only brief concentration. If he's capable of that as a Padawan, it's not difficult to extrapolate that the Force Throw he uses against Luke in The Empire Strikes back is only the tip of the iceberg. While he may not be versed in telekinetic lightsaber combat, there's little doubt in my mind that Vader at least has the potential for such an ability, and has a very refined control over the Force.


Reducto is a pretty fun spell in general. I wonder what that would do to the robotic parts of Vader's armor?

We've covered this. Vader's armor is made with Sith Sorcery, and should provide rudimentary protection against spells. Not to mention that you're basically imparting uses to reducto that have never been demonstrated in the HP universe before.


force choke, assuming it can't be blocked and is usable in combat (fighting against Kenobi? Bah, who needs force choke against a guy who kicked my ass so hard I don't have one anymore. I repeat force choke does not really seem like it has any place as a combat ability outside of SW:TOR) Then that simply gives Voldemort a timer before he must distract Vader. Luckily that timer is more than enough to hit him with imperio or confound the guy. Which would conveniently break his concentration leaving Voldemort to then hit him with something harder.

Force Choke is another of those abilities that requires a subtle use of the Force and you're right that it's not often used in combat. The more common technique is Force Wound, or Force Crush, both of which Vader knows and can use (according to the EU or by extrapolation from his use of Force Choke). These are rather more immediate attacks which rupture organs and severely impair foes if they are not blocked, and would readily render Voldemort a wheezing husk of a thing.

~~~~~
tl;dr

Both Vader and Voldemort are masters of their respective forms of "magic", and I think it's too subjective to assume one can get a formidable leg up on the other their. For almost every spell there is a Force Equivalent or a way to block it, and vice versa. Voldemort can fly, but Vader isn't crippled simply by ranged combat. They're both master mentalists and a battle between their formidable minds is likely to go nowhere.

The only thing that tips it in Vader's favor, is that all magic and mental functions equal, Vader is a trained warrior and precognitent, whereas Voldemort is an aging scholar turned maniac.

[Xondoure]

If I could rule the EU out of all Star Wars discussions believe me I would. I really can't stand how overpowered things have become. Force wound against Kenobi, or anyone else. Again if he had these abilities, why were they not present in the films? (easy answer, they did not exist.)

And you guys are again are confusing Harry's experience with magic, with Voldemorts. Voldemort has never displayed any trouble with any spell. He and his lieutenants have fought out three to four competent opponents at a time laughing. Vader's good but he's one guy. So assuming he can overwhelm Voldemort with mass of attacks seems quite doubtful.

And I did not advocate what he did to Harry, for those reasons. I was simply talking about the passive ability to read people that it gives him. And Snape is the best occlumens in the series. Vader is the most emotionally manipulated character I can think of.

So again, imperio or crucio, or any other mind altering spell. And then hit him with AK.

Please explain how Vader manages to block psychic attacks of that level, I'd love to hear all about how when tracking down the Jedi Vader was able to withstand the mental attacks of Guwana, the greatest telepath the force has ever seen. :smallsigh:

Edit: Oh, and Voldemort is an immortal experienced killer. Aging scholar really doesn't come close.

[ChaosLord29]

If I could rule the EU out of all Star Wars discussions believe me I would. I really can't stand how overpowered things have become. Force wound against Kenobi, or anyone else. Again if he had these abilities, why were they not present in the films? (easy answer, they did not exist.)

Easier answer, he had only just turned to the Sith at that point. His grasp of Dark Side powers was only rudimentary. Also, even easier explanation, it's a pg-13 movie where they can only depict so much with CGI for a family oriented audience. I agree that the EU gets overpowered, which is why I'm not basing my arguments on powers displayed in say, the Force Unleashed, for example. I'm just extrapolating certain prerequisite abilities from the movies, same as you.


And you guys are again are confusing Harry's experience with magic, with Voldemorts. Voldemort has never displayed any trouble with any spell. He and his lieutenants have fought out three to four competent opponents at a time laughing. Vader's good but he's one guy. So assuming he can overwhelm Voldemort with mass of attacks seems quite doubtful.

And I did not advocate what he did to Harry, for those reasons. I was simply talking about the passive ability to read people that it gives him. And Snape is the best occlumens in the series. Vader is the most emotionally manipulated character I can think of.

You specifically mentioned Harry, and it's never made apparent can read minds all the time. And while I'll give you Anakin's heel face turn as an example of emotional manipulation, Vader is the original Ice Man. You have yet to refute my counter arguments that Vader is at least as competent as Snape where hiding his emotions are concerned, based on the fact that both of them betray their masters for the sake of love.

I am also arguing specifically that Voldemort's experience and spell casting ability make him Vader's equal against Force Powers. Where other less experienced wizards would quickly be overwhelmed, Voldemort can hold his own against powers that don't require complicated wand techniques or magic words.

I think Vader still has the edge thanks to his precognition, but we've argued that point going no where. I still insist that being able to read your opponents mind, does not give you an edge if he is precognitive, since you're just reading something you already know (your own actions). That's all still assuming Voldemort can read Vader's mind so coherently.


So again, imperio or crucio, or any other mind altering spell. And then hit him with AK.

Please explain how Vader manages to block psychic attacks of that level, I'd love to hear all about how when tracking down the Jedi Vader was able to withstand the mental attacks of Guwana, the greatest telepath the force has ever seen. :smallsigh:

I'm not basing any of my arguments on the EU, and I'm not going to cite his experience during the Jedi Purge. Vader is at least as accomplished a mentally as Snape, in protecting his thoughts and making his will into reality. Training in the Force requires it, as does Vader's own experiences. He is only ever manipulated as Anakin, by the Palpatine, who you must admit would give Voldemort a run for his money where mental abilities are concerned.


Edit: Oh, and Voldemort is an immortal experienced killer. Aging scholar really doesn't come close.

Voldemort is a 70 year old man who's only ever fought the greatest duelists the wizarding world has to offer (pretty paltry compared to the monsters, assassins, Jedi and Sith that Vader has dispatched in his sordid history). He was an orphan and then a student of wizardry and then turned into a killer and would be tyrant. Vader was an orphan, then a Jedi Knight, then a General of the Republic, then a Lord of the Sith. All in about half the time that Voldemort has been alive.

Face it, Voldemort plays at war against the civilians of the wizarding world, at best facing down other great wizard duelists and the equivalent of a small governments secret service. Vader has fought in wars on a galactic scale and hunted down and slaughtered hundreds of other Jedi during the purge.

I'm not saying this because I think it makes him cooler, I'm saying it because it gives him the definitive advantage in combat experience and lethality.

[Xondoure]

Easier answer, he had only just turned to the Sith at that point. His grasp of Dark Side powers was only rudimentary. Also, even easier explanation, it's a pg-13 movie where they can only depict so much with CGI for a family oriented audience. I agree that the EU gets overpowered, which is why I'm not basing my arguments on powers displayed in say, the Force Unleashed, for example. I'm just extrapolating certain prerequisite abilities from the movies, same as you.

How is crushing someone's internal organs a prerequisite for cutting off their air supply?


You specifically mentioned Harry, and it's never made apparent can read minds all the time. And while I'll give you Anakin's heel face turn as an example of emotional manipulation, Vader is the original Ice Man. You have yet to refute my counter arguments that Vader is at least as competent as Snape where hiding his emotions are concerned, based on the fact that both of them betray their masters for the sake of love.

I specifically mentioned I didn't mean what he did to Harry. And when was Vader ever an ice man? He may have appeared so due to the whole mask plus voice modulation thing, but he hunts down his old master to gloat and kills him even though he knows somethings up after being provoked. Then later his son makes an emotional appeal and he's gone. Simply speaking Vader as he was presented was strong willed, but empathetic. Anakin as a backstory just makes him look like a puppet on strings.


I am also arguing specifically that Voldemort's experience and spell casting ability make him Vader's equal against Force Powers. Where other less experienced wizards would quickly be overwhelmed, Voldemort can hold his own against powers that don't require complicated wand techniques or magic words.

Glad we're in agreement. Voldemort's the best the wizarding world has to offer except maybe Dumbledore (or a hypothetical adult member of the potter gang.)


I think Vader still has the edge thanks to his precognition, but we've argued that point going no where. I still insist that being able to read your opponents mind, does not give you an edge if he is precognitive, since you're just reading something you already know (your own actions). That's all still assuming Voldemort can read Vader's mind so coherently.

Yeah it doesn't help him much when Vader dodges. Really I'm just stating Voldemort would be able to read Vader's actions fast enough to dodge or counter himself. Again, considering he's faced multiple opponents at once and done just fine I don't see this being much of a stretch.


I'm not basing any of my arguments on the EU, and I'm not going to cite his experience during the Jedi Purge. Vader is at least as accomplished a mentally as Snape, in protecting his thoughts and making his will into reality. Training in the Force requires it, as does Vader's own experiences. He is only ever manipulated as Anakin, by the Palpatine, who you must admit would give Voldemort a run for his money where mental abilities are concerned.

No I really mustn't. Well, manipulation wise sure. Palpatine's a much smarter individual than Tom Riddle. But Darth Sidious does not have anything on the level of Imperio. Hell, his strongest ability outside of planet eating force storms (sigh...) is basically Crucio. So what's stopping Voldemort from throwing imperio or a confundus charm?


Voldemort is a 70 year old man who's only ever fought the greatest duelists the wizarding world has to offer (pretty paltry compared to the monsters, assassins, Jedi and Sith that Vader has dispatched in his sordid history). He was an orphan and then a student of wizardry and then turned into a killer and would be tyrant. Vader was an orphan, then a Jedi Knight, then a General of the Republic, then a Lord of the Sith. All in about half the time that Voldemort has been alive.

Face it, Voldemort plays at war against the civilians of the wizarding world, at best facing down other great wizard duelists and the equivalent of a small governments secret service. Vader has fought in wars on a galactic scale and hunted down and slaughtered hundreds of other Jedi during the purge.

I'm not saying this because I think it makes him cooler, I'm saying it because it gives him the definitive advantage in combat experience and lethality.

Considering this is a duel I really don't understand how said experience is worthless. If anything I'd say it puts Vader at a disadvantage, because while Vader is used to fighting other jedi close and personal, Voldemort doesn't need to change tactics nearly as drastically.

[Chen]

Force Choke is another of those abilities that requires a subtle use of the Force and you're right that it's not often used in combat. The more common technique is Force Wound, or Force Crush, both of which Vader knows and can use (according to the EU or by extrapolation from his use of Force Choke). These are rather more immediate attacks which rupture organs and severely impair foes if they are not blocked, and would readily render Voldemort a wheezing husk of a thing.


Having caught the beginning of Episode 3 the other day, I can tell you Force Choke can easily be used in combat. Dooku chokes Obi-Wan and then throws him across the room when they're fighting to "save" Palpatine.

[Tvtyrant]

You know, if Horcruxs are almost invincible, and you can make animals into a Horcrux, then wouldn't it make more sense for Voldemort to force someone else to make him into one, and thus be effectively invincible? Or have three people all make each other into them, so none of them can be destroyed unless you destroy them all together.

As it is though, couldn't Vader force-throw his sword and take off Voldemort's arms?

[Xondoure]

You know, if Horcruxs are almost invincible, and you can make animals into a Horcrux, then wouldn't it make more sense for Voldemort to force someone else to make him into one, and thus be effectively invincible? Or have three people all make each other into them, so none of them can be destroyed unless you destroy them all together.

As it is though, couldn't Vader force-throw his sword and take off Voldemort's arms?

Well Harry's a horcrux and he isn't exactly invincible. And no, Throwing the lightsaber is a silly idea. That one's pretty easily dodge able.

[ChaosLord29]

Well Harry's a horcrux and he isn't exactly invincible. And no, Throwing the lightsaber is a silly idea. That one's pretty easily dodge able.

Generally I would agree, for another Jedi, with a lightsaber. But Voldemort's agility can't possibly be anywhere capable of the agility of another Force user, and it really just begs the question, "What is he going to dodge or deflect it with?" I mean, is there a spell for reflecting that amount of heat, light and energy? It's not like he can just lift his wand up to do it.

[Xondoure]

Generally I would agree, for another Jedi, with a lightsaber. But Voldemort's agility can't possibly be anywhere capable of the agility of another Force user, and it really just begs the question, "What is he going to dodge or deflect it with?" I mean, is there a spell for reflecting that amount of heat, light and energy? It's not like he can just lift his wand up to do it.

"Nox"

Also he can teleport, fly, and be invisible.

Edit: Oh, and basic telekinetic rules still apply, so he should be able to flick it aside with his wand considering there is some mass to it.

Edit2: And I don't really see Vader moving fast enough to make that work.

[Traab]

You know, if Horcruxs are almost invincible, and you can make animals into a Horcrux, then wouldn't it make more sense for Voldemort to force someone else to make him into one, and thus be effectively invincible? Or have three people all make each other into them, so none of them can be destroyed unless you destroy them all together.

As it is though, couldn't Vader force-throw his sword and take off Voldemort's arms?

The problem isnt that horcruxes themselves are invincible, its the protections layered around them that make it so. Feindfire isnt that obscure of a spell, frigging GOYLE was able to cast it his 7th year. (or crabbe, the point remains) Yes it killed him, but they are card carrying members of the moron club. The real issue with destroying the horocruxes was getting to them to do the deed. The locket was hidden in a secret cave behind numerous wards, placed in a horribly poisonous basin of liquid that had to be drunk to get rid of it, protected by a lake full of inferi. Then, to make it even better, it could only be opened by parseltounge. Im assuming that was needed, or else they would have just stabbed it while it was shut and not risked opening the thing.

[ChaosLord29]

"Nox"

Also he can teleport, fly, and be invisible.

Edit: Oh, and basic telekinetic rules still apply, so he should be able to flick it aside with his wand considering there is some mass to it.

Edit2: And I don't really see Vader moving fast enough to make that work.

He might be able to deflect it with a telekinetic type spell, but c'mon we've already agreed that Vader is the faster, more agile and more reactive opponent here, given his extensive training and Force fueled reflexes.

Doesn't 'Nox' just make that one 'lumos' spell go out? How is that relevant to a lightsaber?

Edit: http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wand-Extinguishing_Charm

And as for our above argument, I've given it some thought and I have an important question. Do protection and shield spells counter curses like 'Imperio' and 'Confundum'? Because if they do, I believe it's a moot point, since Vader should be able to deflect them with a shield of the Force protecting either his mind or just directly stopping the spells.

If shield spells do not, and they are purely mental abilities (like Legilimens), I would argue thusly: Harry Potter manages to shake of an Imperius Curse, without doing anything terribly beyond his control, and the spell is inherently a battle of wills in much the same way as Legilimens (though less direct), meaning if you really want to use the Imperius curse on someone, it's going to take more or less of your focus depending on how strong the mind is. Now you've already admitted that Vader has an iron will (". . . Vader as he was presented was strong willed, but empathetic."), meaning for Voldemort to make the Imperius Curse effective against him, he's going to have to try and bend Vader's will to his. I don't think that'll allow him enough concentration to cast any other spells.

But like I said, this all hinges on whether spells that target the opponents mind can be countered with protective spells like 'protego'. I'm fairly certain that is the case though, since they still seem to have a 'component' that emanates from the wand.

[Xondoure]

List of spells I thought I might add to the conversation. Full list here. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells)

Of particular note is Finite Incantum which is an area effect spell that turns off magic. And Anapneo which literally heals force choke. It should also be noted I stopped at F. So there may be many more. And that Voldemort probably knows all of them, but is unlikely to use them until after his usual methods have been exhausted. I'd also like to add that Vader's armor shouldn't be infinite. So Voldemort could just keep hitting it with powerful curses until it breaks. Because Potter magic has few limits to such an effect. Really this is just a demonstration on versatility. Anything thrown at Volde could likely be shot down or transfigured unless it was magic in which case protego should be enough to offset it. And Vader's defenses are not infallible, we've seen a lightsaber and force lightning cut through them. So eventually he's going to fall. Quite quickly really. The killings curse when it lands should be more than enough to destroy Vader's armor, and then the rest of him. There's a reason it's unforgivable after all.

Anapneo (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Anapneo)

Aresto Momentum (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Aresto_Momentum)

Confringo (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Blasting_Curse)

Crucio (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Cruciatus_Curse)

Defodio (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gouging_Spell)

Deprimo (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Deprimo)

Duro (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Duro)

Epoximise (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Epoximise)

Expelliarmus (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Disarming_Charm)

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Expulso

Fianto Duri (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fianto_Duri)

Finite Incantum (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Finite_Incantatem)

Edit: And no, shield spells don't block unforgivables. The confundus charm I'm not so sure of.

EDIT2: Man some of these spells are fun. Here's a really fun one Voldemort's own personal magical barrier destroyer. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_penetration_spell)

So uhm... what was it about force protected armor?

[Traab]

List of spells I thought I might add to the conversation. Full list here. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_spells)

Of particular note is Finite Incantum which is an area effect spell that turns off magic. And Anapneo which literally heals force choke. It should also be noted I stopped at F. So there may be many more. And that Voldemort probably knows all of them, but is unlikely to use them until after his usual methods have been exhausted. I'd also like to add that Vader's armor shouldn't be infinite. So Voldemort could just keep hitting it with powerful curses until it breaks. Because Potter magic has few limits to such an effect. Really this is just a demonstration on versatility. Anything thrown at Volde could likely be shot down or transfigured unless it was magic in which case protego should be enough to offset it. And Vader's defenses are not infallible, we've seen a lightsaber and force lightning cut through them. So eventually he's going to fall. Quite quickly really. The killings curse when it lands should be more than enough to destroy Vader's armor, and then the rest of him. There's a reason it's unforgivable after all.

Anapneo (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Anapneo)

Aresto Momentum (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Aresto_Momentum)

Confringo (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Blasting_Curse)

Crucio (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Cruciatus_Curse)

Defodio (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gouging_Spell)

Deprimo (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Deprimo)

Duro (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Duro)

Epoximise (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Epoximise)

Expelliarmus (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Disarming_Charm)

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Expulso

Fianto Duri (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Fianto_Duri)

Finite Incantum (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Finite_Incantatem)

Edit: And no, shield spells don't block unforgivables. The confundus charm I'm not so sure of.

EDIT2: Man some of these spells are fun. Here's a really fun one Voldemort's own personal magical barrier destroyer. (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_penetration_spell)

So uhm... what was it about force protected armor?

Finite isnt a catch all spell that shuts down magic. If it was, it would have been used way more often than a protego. Why shield when you can just cancel all magic but the unforgiveables in the area around you?

Also, though you dont use it, Nox. I included that as a joke. It works to turn off your own light spell, not to shut down every source of light around you. If it worked that way, dumbledoore wouldnt need that silly deluminator. The lightsaber is a technological device. It isnt powered by the force like a lumos that can cut you. So nox as a technique for turning it off is just plain silly.

Back to your list, anapneo is used to stop standard choking, like if you inhale a piece of food, it doesnt say it will counter any spell that may be choking you. It will dislodge a block in your throat, not counter a spell that is crushing your windpipe.

Arresto momentum sounds useful, but thats a real mouthfull, and I fail to see how that would do anything but possibly stop voldemort from plummeting to his doom if vader manages to try to slam him out of the sky. Assuming it even works against a magical attack instead of someone free falling.



Deprimo sounds like yet another spell that would be used to copy a part of the actual telekinesis of a force user. But as vader can make you move in any direction at will, for a magic user it requires a hefty use of various spells to copy the same effect.

Duro is a cool spell, ill admit.

Epoximise is a noncanon spell added into a trading card game. If you want to go that far looking for specific spells, then vader should be able to use all EU abilities as well.

Fianto seems to be a nice and strong shield effect, but its hard to say what level of power vader can bring against it.

I ignored the standard attack spells you listed because we already know voldemort has a long LONG list of potential spells he can use to try to hurt voldemort, so I fail to see how showing several varying levels of explosion charms would matter unless your claim is that certain ones would make it through his force absorb or something.

[Xondoure]

Epoximise is a stand in for various sticking charms which are canon. A well placed one could have some nasty effects to be sure.

And really, if you're going to say a spell that specifically heals choking wouldn't work against choking I'm not sure what to say.

Finite Incantum seems likely to be a much higher level spell than protego. Protego also has the added benefit of throwing your opponents spells against them.

[Traab]

Epoximise is a stand in for various sticking charms which are canon. A well placed one could have some nasty effects to be sure.

And really, if you're going to say a spell that specifically heals choking wouldn't work against choking I'm not sure what to say.

Finite Incantum seems likely to be a much higher level spell than protego. Protego also has the added benefit of throwing your opponents spells against them.

Its a spell to stop someone from choking on a lump of pork, its not a spell to counter a curse that is crushing your throat. As for protego, I was always under the impression that it only worked to stop various low to mid level spells at best. Nothing powerful would be stopped by it. But its been awhile since I read the books. The written explanation for finite seems to claim it basically shuts down all magic in the area its cast. That is so stupidly overpowered that it cant be right. It has to only work on certain spells, or only on a certain level of magic, because otherwise harry could have cast finite incantatum on the fiendfire in the room of requirement and stopped it cold.

[Xondoure]

I'd hazard a guess that fiendfyre is on the power level of the unforgivables yes. And the spell does indeed seem to only work to a certain level. I'm guessing telekinesis is within that area.

Edit: It's worth noting that more powerful wizards can put more power into spells. So voldemort's shield charm would be a good deal more effective than say, one constructed by Mundungus Fletcher.

[ChaosLord29]

See for every spell on that list, there's an effective counter through one or more Force Techniques, all of which any competent Jedi can perform, and we know Vader is a more than competent Jedi. Granted, you don't see Vader perform every one in the movies, but then again Voldemort doesn't perform every one of those spells either.

We assume that he could perform them, because he's a master wizard. I think it's only fair to assume Vader has in his repertoire a similar mastery of fundamental Jedi and Sith techniques. Force Lightning is an example of a technique Vader can't do. It's an advanced Dark Side technique, and quite frankly doesn't suit Vader's style. Force Breech, Force Barrier and Force Wave however, are all well within the limits of what a Force user of his level should be capable and have knowledge of, and with those three abilities alone Vader could effectively counter every spell on that list . . .

With the exception of the Unforgiveable curses. Now I'm a little hazy about them not being able to be blocked. Avada Kedevara we know can be blocked by solid matter. Crucio seems to be similar to Force Choke though in that it just requires line of sight and a certain proximity. And once again, even if the Imperius Curse cannot be blocked by shields or even solid matter, it Harry Potter shook it off through sheer force of will. I think it's reasonable Vader could do the same.

It comes down to a fundamental question. You seem to be of the opinion Xonodoure, that Voldemort is a more accomplished wizard, than Vader is a Jedi, whereas I believe their respective power levels are close enough to cancel each other out. Voldemort's spells might be more specialized and/or showy, but they're not outside the reach of what is possible of a Force user of Vader's caliber (if not his particular expertise).

[Xondoure]

No I'm of the opinion that force powers were never supposed to be as powerful as high fantasy. If you have counters, please list them.

Edit: Unforgiveables. Avada Kedavra kills whatever it touches, and it's fast enough Vader probably won't be able to throw a boulder in front of it. If it hits the armor, the armor is done. And I'm not sure how long Vader can live without his life support. Crucio probably requires line of sight. And the beauty of imperio is it does not have to be fully effective. While Vader is fighting a force of will battle that he has no experience against (Harry had to train before he could fully subvert it, and it still wasn't an instantaneous out) Voldemort can simply launch another spell such as Avada Kedavra. And with his focus split the dark lord of the with is going to sit their and take it. End match.

[ChaosLord29]

No I'm of the opinion that force powers were never supposed to be as powerful as high fantasy. If you have counters, please list them.

See, I think your using 'powerful' there in a different context. The Force is supposed to be the ultimate power in the galaxy. With the exception perhaps of Force Lightning (You mentioned, I believe, the massive Force Storms that Palpatine conjures in the EU; but again we're not really taking that into account here), it may not be as flashy or ostentatious as the spells in the Potter-verse, but I think that's more a function of the limits of the technology they were using at the time to depict it, rather than a good indicator of what can be done with the Force. I mean, in the EU books, the Force does incredible things the equal of many of the greatest spells in Harry Potter, which I might also add were books. They just happened to be written as books first, and made into movies in an era where technology could better approximate the sort of 'magic' they were using.

Specific counters to follow.


Edit: Unforgiveables. Avada Kedavra kills whatever it touches, and it's fast enough Vader probably won't be able to throw a boulder in front of it. If it hits the armor, the armor is done. And I'm not sure how long Vader can live without his life support. Crucio probably requires line of sight. And the beauty of imperio is it does not have to be fully effective. While Vader is fighting a force of will battle that he has no experience against (Harry had to train before he could fully subvert it, and it still wasn't an instantaneous out) Voldemort can simply launch another spell such as Avada Kedavra. And with his focus split the dark lord of the Sith is going to sit their and take it. End match.

You can't tell Vader isn't fast enough to block or dodge AK when Harry himself was. It gets blocked by a tombstone for crying out loud, a couple of inches of stone. Vader can deflect blaster bolts which move somewhere faster than a speeding bullet and (significantly) slower than the speed of light. You don't see spells move anywhere near bullet speed, or else wizards (who have human reflexes) would never be able to block or counter them. Vader's reflexes are super human, and he has a lightsaber, which is a blade of pure energy, held in place by a magnetic field.

Vader has already trained to resist mental subversion. It's part of the training that every Jedi receives, and if you're going to argue that it shouldn't count because the Imperius Curse is different, then you're also going to have to accept that Voldemort can't use magic to block Force techniques like choke and wound because 'they're different'.

Secondly, if you're using your will to focus on Imperius in order to dominate a strong mind, we know that you can't cast another spell while you're doing it. I don't even have to argue that it requires too much of a strain on one's concentration because the use of the spell requires the wand. The spell is not complete until you have either given up trying to control your opponent, or you have complete dominion over them and we know that you can't cast two spells at the same time. The same cannot be said for Force Powers.

[Xondoure]

Blocking it is one thing. So it hits his lightsaber. The lightsaber is now destroyed. Dodging it is another in all that robotic armor, especially when he's distracted. Because that's the thing. Ending imperio and immediately firing off Avada Kedavra is going to take Voldemort less time to recover than it will Vader. Because Vader is just suffering from being mind raped on a level well beyond anything we see in Star Wars. Suggestion is one thing, dominate person is a whole other beast. Alternatively, Just use a weaker version of the spell that tore through Hogwart's defenses and then use a sticking charm or petrificus totalus to set up the shot.

Oh and as for hp magic not having good telekinetics, Locomotor is basically absolute control of an object, if that's even needed.

The reason I used that other spell was because it was basically force crush. Of note, there is also a curse used by dolohov that tears up your internal organs. It was mitigated by a hasty protego charm, but most curses have a specific counter curse. So if we assume transparency I think it's safe to assume Voldemort would know that counter curse, but correct me if I'm stretching there. Also Voldemort knows all those spells by virtue of having gone to school and being the most accomplished dark wizard known. Vader is very much a knight, whose main trick has always been his lightsaber. If it were Darth Sidious I'd be more inclined to believe deep knowledge of pretty much all and any force techniques, but it doesn't appear if Vader was ever that technical.

[Traab]

Oh please, vader is hardly some novice to people trying to control him, and he is hardly going to be left reeling by some voice that tries to make him put down his lightsaber. As for the ak, if it hit his saber HILT I would agree with you, but its not going to. It will hit the beam of raw energy contained by a forcefield. At worst it might make him have to turn it back on. They call it unblockable, but that is so much raw energy contained in there, its like the difference between swinging a bat hard enough to knock someone out, (stunner) versus swinging the bat hard enough to bust a hole in the hoover dam. We just dont know for sure what will happen in that scenario.

It could be that they cancel each other out like two avada kedavras smashing into each other, or it could be strong enough to deflect it without issue, or it could be too weak to block it. In which case, yes, vader IS going to dodge, because he wont be on his knees sobbing just because he heard voldemort say, "put down the saber" in his head. Blaster bolts move faster than spells and he can avoid those bolts. Visible spells would be eye rollingly easy for him to avoid/block/counter.

You talk about the shield breaker spell, I didnt see the movies, they annoyed the hell out of me early on so I stopped around goblet, but I doubt very much voldemort could just walk up in the middle of his fight, flick his wrist, and fling such a massive amount of energy at vader without any warning. Locomotor is possible, except we only ever see it being used on inanimate objects, and the only time we see it used in combat is a variation that animated suits of armor as if they were alive. So its hard to judge just what its capable of in determining movement speed, and ease of control in combat. Can you have it active while using other spells? We never see someone casting locomotor and other spells at the same time as their trunk or whatever is moving.

[Xondoure]

Alright so where is all this mind control in star wars? "These are not the droids you are looking for" is maybe a confundus charm power level wise. Imperio is a whole other beast that gives you complete control of their actions and motivations, but allows them to work independent of you. There's a reason it's unforgivable and that's because it's freaking scary powerful and dangerous. Easily the most justified in it's position as an unforgivable. You get hit with that for the first time and it isn't something you can just shrug off. Harry resisted the order to jump on the desk, but it took time and he stood there stalling before crashing into it. So yeah, I'd say it serves a pretty good chance at distracting him.

And a lightsaber is raw energy, that's fine. It still dies. The killing curse kills things (including the killing curse when it hits.) The only recorded measure of it ever not killing things is priori incantatem, and the raw unbeatable power of love. Newsflash, love in the form of selfless sacrifice is pretty much the opposite of the dark side. That's the entire point of the Star Wars films and Luke and Anakin's character arcs. And it certainly won't help unless Luke or Leia show up and start getting crucified.

As for the shield breaker, he doesn't need to unleash that much raw power. Vader's defenses are in no way that strong (the shield was disintegrating everything it touched, and were built at least partly from the already existing hogwarts defenses which being magic, means ancient = stronger) A weaker version would do the trick just fine.

[Prime32]

And a lightsaber is raw energy, that's fine. It still dies. The killing curse kills things (including the killing curse when it hits.) The only recorded measure of it ever not killing things is priori incantatem, and the raw unbeatable power of love. Newsflash, love in the form of selfless sacrifice is pretty much the opposite of the dark side. That's the entire point of the Star Wars films and Luke and Anakin's character arcs. And it certainly won't help unless Luke or Leia show up and start getting crucified.A lightsaber is basically an advanced blowtorch. Extinguishing the flame is pointless, it will just come back.

[Traab]

Alright so where is all this mind control in star wars? "These are not the droids you are looking for" is maybe a confundus charm power level wise. Imperio is a whole other beast that gives you complete control of their actions and motivations, but allows them to work independent of you. There's a reason it's unforgivable and that's because it's freaking scary powerful and dangerous. Easily the most justified in it's position as an unforgivable. You get hit with that for the first time and it isn't something you can just shrug off. Harry resisted the order to jump on the desk, but it took time and he stood there stalling before crashing into it. So yeah, I'd say it serves a pretty good chance at distracting him.

And a lightsaber is raw energy, that's fine. It still dies. The killing curse kills things (including the killing curse when it hits.) The only recorded measure of it ever not killing things is priori incantatem, and the raw unbeatable power of love. Newsflash, love in the form of selfless sacrifice is pretty much the opposite of the dark side. That's the entire point of the Star Wars films and Luke and Anakin's character arcs. And it certainly won't help unless Luke or Leia show up and start getting crucified.

As for the shield breaker, he doesn't need to unleash that much raw power. Vader's defenses are in no way that strong (the shield was disintegrating everything it touched, and were built at least partly from the already existing hogwarts defenses which being magic, means ancient = stronger) A weaker version would do the trick just fine.

But the fake moody had to concentrate to try and make harry do it. Its not just a fire and forget spell. So for as long as vader is fighting the control, voldemort is fighting to maintain it, meaning stalemate. Voldemort isnt going to cast imperio then blow up vaders face mask while he is struggling to not do the funky chicken, or whatever command he gives.

AK hitting the saber would at worst turn it off. It wouldnt magically travel through the energy beam and hunt down the electrical components and kill those too. Worst case, vader has to turn his saber off and back on. Best case it deflects it due to the effects of the shield holding the lightsaber beam in. That shield is holding a LOT of energy in place, I dont think its unreasonable to think it would stop an ak. Yeah yeah, unblockable, but you know what? I dont think the people who tested that had lightsabers to work with. Its able to maintain the shape of a lightsaber as it cuts through blast doors, doors that by definition should not be penetrable, I dont think a high yield blast of energy will do the job.

Yeah, and unlike the shield, vader can MOVE if the force tells him he should. Voldemort was almost literally shooting at the broad side of a barn there. Vader isnt just going to stand there and take a wrecking ball to the face if he can just avoid it.

Look, im not trying to say that voldemort will lose, im just trying to counter the people who think vader basically has no chance, because voldemort knows 400 spells. Im saying that probably 300 of those spells are yawn worthy to vader and no challenge to block dodge or avoid, and of the other 100, most of those are of limited utility, or not likely to be used unless the battle becomes long and protracted. After all, voldemort doesnt get 3 months to prepare for this, he just gets a scary black armored guy with a glowing wand coming towards him.

[ChaosLord29]

Its able to maintain the shape of a lightsaber as it cuts through blast doors, doors that by definition should not be penetrable, I dont think a high yield blast of energy will do the job.

If you think about it, AK is only unblockable in terms of other spells and magic. A three inch stone grave marker manages to block it just fine and doesn't even have the decency to explode into rubble.

You don't ever really see the spell hit metal, but I think it's safe to say that something like a steel door would do a fine job of stopping AK (there are other spells which hit with greater kinetic and explosive force). Compare that to the blast doors in Star Wars which are made of the same material that armors the hull of capital class starships, meant to block turbolasers and torpedos. I'm not talking X-Wing laser canons and proton torpedos here, I'm talking capital ship torpedos and missiles and lasers which have a comparable yield to small tactical nuclear weapons.

And the lightsaber cuts through that stuff like so much drywall (not quite hot knife through butter status, but definitely faster than cold knife through butter straight out of the freezer). That lightsaber blade is doing the work of a ship mounted laser weapon, and the confinement field has to be able to shield it the same way. Frankly, the physics of lightsabers is basically another kind of magic, but that only further establishes that a light saber blade should be more than capable of blocking any but the most raw, destructive spells, like a master class enfringo or bombardia maximus.

[Traab]

If you think about it, AK is only unblockable in terms of other spells and magic. A three inch stone grave marker manages to block it just fine and doesn't even have the decency to explode into rubble.

You don't ever really see the spell hit metal, but I think it's safe to say that something like a steel door would do a fine job of stopping AK (there are other spells which hit with greater kinetic and explosive force). Compare that to the blast doors in Star Wars which are made of the same material that armors the hull of capital class starships, meant to block turbolasers and torpedos. I'm not talking X-Wing laser canons and proton torpedos here, I'm talking capital ship torpedos and missiles and lasers which have a comparable yield to small tactical nuclear weapons.

And the lightsaber cuts through that stuff like so much drywall (not quite hot knife through butter status, but definitely faster than cold knife through butter straight out of the freezer). That lightsaber blade is doing the work of a ship mounted laser weapon, and the confinement field has to be able to shield it the same way. Frankly, the physics of lightsabers is basically another kind of magic, but that only further establishes that a light saber blade should be more than capable of blocking any but the most raw, destructive spells, like a master class enfringo or bombardia maximus.

Exactly, I wouldnt expect vader to deflect that shield breaker spell with his lightsaber, but thats more because it looks like it has one hell of alot of kinetic energy backing it up. That being said, that also looked like one of those adrenaline fueled overpowered spells that you would only see if vader made voldemort snap with rage. Im not talking a, "why wont you DIE?!" kind of snapping, I mean a primal scream unleashing sort of hate that could only be triggered by knowing that his immortality is going bye bye chunk by chunk right in front of him. In other words, its not something likely to turn up in this duel.

[leafman]

Alright so where is all this mind control in star wars?.

Remember that time an entire Galactic Senate decided that the Chancellor was no good and they voted in a new one, then a few years later they decided "screw being a republic, being an empire would be awesome", so they voted to make the Chancellor the first Galactic Emperor? Yeah, that was mind control on a massive scale. :smalltongue:

[ChaosLord29]

I'm inclined to say that's definitely the kind of spell that Voldemort could technically pull out of his bag of tricks at any given time, but not any given moment. I saw the film just recently, and he does have to wind up considerably, and he's not under any sort of pressure when he does it. So even if he can perform such a spell, it doesn't strike me as the kind of spell that can be used at the drop of the hat.

But then, as Xonodure has noted, Voldy does have the ability to fly, and if Vader doesn't keep up the harassment with various objects hurtling towards him, bursts of force push and pull, and the occasional Force Crush or Choke to keep him on his toes, he might just be able to pull off such a spell.

[ChaosLord29]

Remember that time an entire Galactic Senate decided that the Chancellor was no good and they voted in a new one, then a few years later they decided "screw being a republic, being an empire would be awesome", so they voted to make the Chancellor the first Galactic Emperor? Yeah, that was mind control on a massive scale. :smalltongue:

There's some evidence to support that Palpatine was using mass manipulation through the Force against the Senate, but he also coupled that with a campaign of mundane political misdirection.

[Xondoure]

You guys, AK kills things. Full stop. If it hits the lightsaber the lightsabers done. If the lightsaber prooves that much of a problem expelliarmus would work long enough to get a hit in against Vader himself.

And Imperio takes significantly less force of will for the user than the resistor. If that weren't the case weak willed people could never use it. So voldemort could cast another spell while Vader is still struggling to shrug it off. If you want proof of this try every time someone cast a spell while they had someone under the imperious curse.

And the shield breaker spell I don't expect to come into effect. It's really more of an example of the sheer magnitude of spell casting vader has to be able to resist. Couple that with versatility on a whole different scale, as well as better mobility and mental attacks... I just don't see Vader pulling out of this one.

[Tvtyrant]

You guys, AK kills things. Full stop. If it hits the lightsaber the lightsabers done. If the lightsaber prooves that much of a problem expelliarmus would work long enough to get a hit in against Vader himself.

And Imperio takes significantly less force of will for the user than the resistor. If that weren't the case weak willed people could never use it. So voldemort could cast another spell while Vader is still struggling to shrug it off. If you want proof of this try every time someone cast a spell while they had someone under the imperious curse.

And the shield breaker spell I don't expect to come into effect. It's really more of an example of the sheer magnitude of spell casting vader has to be able to resist. Couple that with versatility on a whole different scale, as well as better mobility and mental attacks... I just don't see Vader pulling out of this one.

What exactly keeps Vader from simply holding small rocks in the way of AK? If it really "kills" what it hits, then it should simply destroy the rock and then dissipate.

[ChaosLord29]

You guys, AK kills things. Full stop.

No, no it doesn't. You have nothing to support that claim. It kills living things apparently by separating their soul from their body. Solid matter blocks its path and has a tendency to be blasted or shattered depending on its composition but we're talking about a blade of pure energy here!

The containment field for the lightsaber alone should be enough to deflect it, in much the same way any other kinetic barrier would.


And Imperio takes significantly less force of will for the user than the resistor. If that weren't the case weak willed people could never use it. So voldemort could cast another spell while Vader is still struggling to shrug it off. If you want proof of this try every time someone cast a spell while they had someone under the imperious curse.


Firstly, I think the point is that weak willed people cannot make the Imperius Curse work. The same way AK doesn't work without the will to murder, Crucio doesn't work without the will to inflict pain, Imperius doesn't work without the will to dominate. Secondly, Voldemort can't cast another spell while he's trying to bend Vader to his will because his wand is being used to perform the Imperius curse, and it's established that a wand cannot cast more than one spell at once, and even a wizard with two wands can't cast two spells. Thirdly, and most significantly, the effect of being released from the curse appears to be instantaneous, as at the end of the film, people everywhere are shown to be released once Voldemort is killed, and each of them has had full knowledge of their actions the whole time, and doesn't appear at all confused, except at how the curse has been released.


And the shield breaker spell I don't expect to come into effect. It's really more of an example of the sheer magnitude of spell casting vader has to be able to resist. Couple that with versatility on a whole different scale, as well as better mobility and mental attacks... I just don't see Vader pulling out of this one.

I'll give it to you that wizards in HP have flashier magic, but I'm wondering what this level of versatility is really doing for Voldemort. Sure, he can turn a teapot into a Gerbil if he needs to, but at the end of the day is AK really that much more effective than say, crushing someone's windpipe with the Force? It doesn't even have the weakness that true love can stop it by some arcane, eldritch rule. Fiendfyre? Handy if you need to mow down a bunch of low level wizards or torch a building/forest but for a one on one duel wouldn't it be more efficient to simply launch a blast of directed kintetic force at them?

And I'd like to put this one to rest once and for all. Apparation is not teleporting. You have to have a clear mental image of where you're going and how you will arrive there, you can't be distracted, and you can't cast another spell while you're doing it (wand limitation). Voldemort can fly. That doesn't make him more agile, it just gives him the ability to make this a ranged fight when it normally wouldn't be.

Let me put it this way: Do wizards ever get Uncanny Dodge? Evasion? Improved Evasion? Enhanced Movement Speed? Those abilities all come standard with being a Jedi Knight (in the RPG), and Vader is a Jedi Master, and Dark Lord of the Sith. He is one of the fastest, most canny, agile duelists the Star Wars universe has ever seen (next to his son), and oh yeah, he's precognitent.

[Aotrs Commander]

If Voldemort can disarm Vader with Expelliarmis, Vader can disarm Voldemort by the simply expedient of pulling his wand out of his hand with TK, which in his case only take the speed of motion, he doesn't have to even vocalise.

Vader without lightsabre is in a far better position than Voldemort without wand.



According to the HP Wiki, AK didn't blow up the animated centaur statue, or even de-animate it, when Dumbledore used it to intercept. I can't find my sister's copy of OotP, does anyone want to confirm?

If true, it seems very likely that the lightsabre would be able to deflect the attack, just in it's physical properties, granting Vader an easy win. (If he can deflect AK, he can deflect pretty much every spell, since they are essentially all ranged touch attacks in D&D parlance.)

[Fragenstein]

If Voldemort can disarm Vader with Expelliarmis, Vader can disarm Voldemort by the simply expedient of pulling his wand out of his hand with TK, which in his case only take the speed of motion, he doesn't have to even vocalise.

Vader without lightsabre is in a far better position than Voldemort without wand.



According to the HP Wiki, AK didn't blow up the animated centaur statue, or even de-animate it, when Dumbledore used it to intercept. I can't find my sister's copy of OotP, does anyone want to confirm?

If true, it seems very likely that the lightsabre would be able to deflect the attack, just in it's physical properties, granting Vader an easy win. (If he can deflect AK, he can deflect pretty much every spell, since they are essentially all ranged touch attacks in D&D parlance.)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right on that part. Avada Kedavra didn't kill the animated centaur, and Expelliarmus is only going to work if Vader is preoccupied to the point where his Force Precognition can't give him enough advance warning to deflect the spell. Remember, that's only a glimpse into the next second or two when it comes to combat. It's not like Vader will have the entirety of the fight played out for him.

And that's only assuming the Dark Arts can't obfuscate Force Precognition in a similar manner as the Dark Side itself can manage. I still maintain that Occlumency could be considered an ability related to the way that Luke hid his presence and enraged ambush during the final confrontation with Vader. Did it give him enough forewarning to keep from getting tackled from above? I don't remember him being prepared for that, but it's been a while since I've watched that scene.

Regardless, precognition is only going to work if Vader can find a way to prevent Voldemort's actions. If he's as arrogant and dismissive as everyone claims, then he's just as likely to use his Dark Mark to summon a mass of Death Eaters to deal with Vader without getting his hands dirty.

Can the Sith really prevent teleportation? Can Vader defeat nine skilled wizards at once? How better prepared will Voldemort be after watching Vader dispatch nine of his best soldiers?

I'll give you that the expanded universe, even if not entirely canon, could give Vader a better array of powers and physical agility than he demonstrated in the three movies, but that still pales in comparison to what Voldemort can pull out of thin air just from what's shown in the books.

Go ahead and give Vader's light saber status equal to the Sword of Gryffindor. Give it the ability to deflect Avada Kedavra. Give his Sith-created prosthetics the same status, making everything immune to Reducto or the dozen other ways wizards have of dealing with technology. Give his life support a status equal to a horcrux. He still can't do half the things a wizard is capable of.

Mobility. Flexibility. Lethality. Invisibilty. Minions. Voldemort has the edge in all of these. Even if you allow for Vader to call in Stormtroopers via commlink in the same way Voldemort uses his Dark Mark, an entire roomfull of them can be subdued with a single spell. Deatheaters will be much more difficult to handle as a group.

[Aotrs Commander]

Go ahead and give Vader's light saber status equal to the Sword of Gryffindor. Give it the ability to deflect Avada Kedavra. Give his Sith-created prosthetics the same status, making everything immune to Reducto or the dozen other ways wizards have of dealing with technology. Give his life support a status equal to a horcrux. He still can't do half the things a wizard is capable of.

Mobility. Flexibility. Lethality. Invisibilty. Minions. Voldemort has the edge in all of these. Even if you allow for Vader to call in Stormtroopers via commlink in the same way Voldemort uses his Dark Mark, an entire roomfull of them can be subdued with a single spell. Deatheaters will be much more difficult to handle as a group.

Well, to be fair, the Jedi didn't exactly handle dozens of minions all that well, did they? (Especially when shot in the back.) Numbers will always tell against one guy, because outside of anime and RPGs, where the protagonists are sometimes literally unkillable with standard arms, it only takes one guy getting lucky. I'll go ahead and agree than Death Eaters are better combatants than OT-Era Storm Troopers, though, head for head. (Where "better" would mean "have a greater offensive output due to flexibility of attack and probably mobility" not "better trained, motivated or necessarily skilled", though we are talking OT-Era Storm Troopers...!)

(Though I think Voldy would be just as hard pressed if fighting a couple of platoons of troops with vehicle support; if AK only works on living beings and easily destructible matter (e.g. 20th century construction material, thin armour plate (i.e. hollow animated armoured suits), there's a very good chane it'd do squat against, say an AT-ST.)

Weight of numbers is pretty much a garenteed victory against a much smaller force, unless the smaller force is actually immune to the attacks altogether (see many RPGs/anime, and in which case numbers are irrelevant when you have an overwhelming advantage) especially when that force is not in a defended position, and has only so much concentration to go around. Even Jedi can't deflect shots coming from opposite directions with one lightsabre; it physically can only be in one place at a time!

So, yeah, saying Vader won't fair so well when out-numbered ten to one by reasoably dangerous ranged combatants isn't really saying all that much. I doub't he'd fair all that well against ten mid-level Jedi, if one of them was Yoda or Obi-Wan or something, either.

[Tiki Snakes]

Of course, if we're expanding this from a 1on1 to allow minion resources, things get very silly very quickly and do not look rosey for Voldemort at all.

[Aotrs Commander]

Of course, if we're expanding this from a 1on1 to allow minion resources, things get very silly very quickly and do not look rosey for Voldemort at all.

Yeah, when it comes to "Vader calls up a, say, Imperial Corvette to shoot Turbolasers while he sits and has a cup of tea on the bridge" there's not a lot Voldy can do!

(Though the OT did specify a combat starting at about ten paces, so...)

[Traab]

You guys, AK kills things. Full stop. If it hits the lightsaber the lightsabers done. If the lightsaber prooves that much of a problem expelliarmus would work long enough to get a hit in against Vader himself.

And Imperio takes significantly less force of will for the user than the resistor. If that weren't the case weak willed people could never use it. So voldemort could cast another spell while Vader is still struggling to shrug it off. If you want proof of this try every time someone cast a spell while they had someone under the imperious curse.

And the shield breaker spell I don't expect to come into effect. It's really more of an example of the sheer magnitude of spell casting vader has to be able to resist. Couple that with versatility on a whole different scale, as well as better mobility and mental attacks... I just don't see Vader pulling out of this one.

A lightsaber isnt alive, good luck killing a beam of energy. Worst case he has to turn it back on.

As has already been said, if expelliarmus works on vader, then vader can tear voldemorts wand out of his hand with the force. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander after all. And without saber or wand, vader has the edge, as all his abilities are "wandless" He doesnt need his lightsaber to crush your throat, he doesnt need his lightsaber to slam tombstones into your face. Voldemort does need his wand to have anything close to effective magic use though. So let them disarm each other, worst case both will roll their eyes and summon their weapon all over again. After all, I think voldemort can wandlessly summon his wand, and wel all know that vader can easily call his lightsaber to hand.

No he cant. One spell at a time. If voldemort was capable of casting two spells at once, priori incantatum would have ended a lot faster, and with a far less favorable outcome for harry. Imperio is channeled, as long as voldemort is trying to dominate vader, he cant cast another spell, and vader wont stand there blinking in a daze for several seconds after he fights it off. (if he can, we really cant say for sure)

Yes, voldemort has a metric buttload of spells he can fling around. He has more spells than vader has had hot dinners, the problem is, to vader, the vast majority of them are nothing more than different colored slow moving blaster bolts for him to deflect. The number of spells that voldemort has that could actually be effective in a fight against vader is far smaller. Then you have things like that force absorb which adds even more defensive abilities to stop voldemorts various attacks, and the number of potentially effective spells shrinks even further. What this means is, voldemort needs time to FIND these effective spells. He needs time to determine what isnt working and how to get around vaders defenses. He isnt going to fly into the air and go thermonuclear right off the bat. It just isnt his style of combat. I still say the fight is at least as likely to work like THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjnD6NdC3e4) as it is with voldemort manging to survive long enough to figure out the combination of spells he will need to beat vader.

[Fragenstein]

Of course, if we're expanding this from a 1on1 to allow minion resources, things get very silly very quickly and do not look rosey for Voldemort at all.

Just the opposite, and yes this would expand as summoning via Dark Mark is a staple of Voldemort's power base.

You're in a room, facing off against a lone wizard. Suddenly he makes an innocuous move and the room is now full of many wizards who were, just a second ago, on the other side of the planet. While your troopers are still pinning down your location, you're in a massive fight for your life.

Even if you last long enough to see them start flooding into the room, you only get to see all of them locked down by a single Petrificus Totalis, regardless of their numbers or reflexes. Or, hell, disintegrated as they enter the room by Repello Inimicum.

And -- Traab, the Potterverse spells are all more blaster-like in the movies. If you go by the books then you'll see more indirect abilities and spells with invisible or instant effects.

[Aotrs Commander]

Even if you last long enough to see them start flooding into the room, you only get to see all of them locked down by a single Petrificus Totalis, regardless of their numbers or reflexes.

Um...no. Petrificus Totalis is a point-attack spell. It doesn't affect an area. And also requries a ranged attack. So you can petrify one at a time.

There may be multi-target versions in the computer games, but if Vader's not allowed EU, Voldemort and company certainly aren't allowed noncanon computer game spells.

There might be an area-effect petrification spell (but I don't remember one off-hand, and it certainly isn't Petrificus Totalis.)



Come to think of it, my impression is likely that, if he didn't choose Force Choke (which is, to be honest a reasonable possibility) Vader's opening move would be a hard Force Push to knock Voldemort off his feet. Maybe I've just been watching too much Clone Wars, but that just seems sort of likely.

[Traab]

immobulous. Hermione used it to freeze the swarm of pixies. Dunno how effective it would be on people. But in either case, this is supposed to be a one on one battle, not a "who can summon their army first" fight. It defeats the purpose of having these two face each other.

[Fragenstein]

Ah, right. Immobulus. Same spell used to not only freeze pixies, but also Grydilows, a Whomping Willow, muggle-based burglar alarms and possibly at least one Deatheater.

And this isn't going to remain a one-on-one battle if people insist on portraying established character traits and full potentials. Summoning is a power inherent to Voldemort. If he loses the use of his Dark Mark, then what are we taking away from Vader's personal arsenal to match?

Stage the fight in the heart of the Death Star if you like. You're only getting around the support of the Deatheaters if Apparating can't get you through deflector shields.

[Aotrs Commander]

immobulous. Hermione used it to freeze the swarm of pixies. Dunno how effective it would be on people. But in either case, this is supposed to be a one on one battle, not a "who can summon their army first" fight. It defeats the purpose of having these two face each other.

Ah, yes, that. One would have to conclude it's stopping power must be finite or have other limitations, otherwise it would have seen more usage. Because if it was a genuinely anti-wizard automatic hit area-effect spell, everyone should have been using it; even it it could be ended from someone outside the area, the precious seconds would be incalculaly valuable. I don't think that all the Wizards in HP were that staggeringly inept to not use such an overwhelming advantage.

And if it is, and they were, then a) they deserve to be killed wholesale and b) they wouldn't use the spell on the Storm Troopers because of their catastrophically massive Stupid.

But given the fact the spell was used twice in the books and possibly four times in the movies, I think we conclude it wasn't that effective a spell, otherwise why would you ever use a stunner? (You can't counter a spell if you're paralysed.)

[Tiki Snakes]

If he loses the use of his Dark Mark, then what are we taking away from Vader's personal arsenal to match?

His ability to call in orbital strikes, air support and other reinforcements via his suits built in communications?

[Fragenstein]

His ability to call in orbital strikes, air support and other reinforcements via his suits built in communications?

Orbital strikes and air support won't work if you're confined to a single room, and would just as likely kill Vader along with Voldemort.

Other reinforcements are welcome to come seeing as how they're all just muggles anyway, and will arrive at best several minutes after the Deatheaters arrive. A single, lasting charm can kill each one as they pass through the door or they can be paralyzed in mass quatities... yadda yadda.

And -- Commander -- Immobulus saw restricted use against wizards as they have lasting, 360 degree protective charms that give them resistance to such things. Unless Vader calls in a mass of Force-wielding Stormtroopers, then they're going to be vulnerable.

I don't remember Vader ever actually taking on an apprentice. I believe even Mara Jade only answered to Palpatine.

[Traab]

Orbital strikes and air support won't work if you're confined to a single room, and would just as likely kill Vader along with Voldemort.

Other reinforcements are welcome to come seeing as how they're all just muggles anyway, and will arrive at best several minutes after the Deatheaters arrive. A single, lasting charm can kill each one as they pass through the door or they can be paralyzed in mass quatities... yadda yadda.

And -- Commander -- Immobulus saw restricted use against wizards as they have lasting, 360 degree protective charms that give them resistance to such things. Unless Vader calls in a mass of Force-wielding Stormtroopers, then they're going to be vulnerable.

I don't remember Vader ever actually taking on an apprentice. I believe even Mara Jade only answered to Palpatine.

Got a list here. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vader%27s_apprentice_%28disambiguation%29)

[Fragenstein]

Got a list here. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vader%27s_apprentice_%28disambiguation%29)

Ah, I should have known the greater expanded universe would have a few. The first three are clones of each other, the fourth is listed as non-canon. At least one other actually gave Vader the finger and left.

Of the remaining, how many existed simultaneously? How many could instantly traverse unlimited distances to appear at Vader's side on a whim? Was it ever demonstrated that Vader assembled an actual unit of trained force users?

Voldemort made heavy use of a mass of powerful, obedient, dark wizards who be anywhere on the planet in a heartbeat. Only deep magic could render select locations safe from their instant assaults and untraceable, unblockable summons. Even Hogwarts couldn't hold out against a sustained penetration.

[Xondoure]

No Vader can't just rip Voldemort's wand away because assuming transparency such an effect is easily parried. And that's the thing. The way magic works there's a counter spell for everything. And as what Vader can do can be replicated by a very narrow list of spells so Voldemort has those countercurses. Vader has no such knowledge. So he has no way of avoiding expelliarmus from being effective (though he could call it back immediately after) and there's just no way his armor will be able to stop all of Voldemorts attacks. Specifically finite, and finite incantatem which turns off magic. Which is probably why you don't see wizards wearing a whole lot of enchanted gear in combat (Most I can think of would be the shield charmed hats, and those were very weak better than nothing sorts of protection;) There's a turn off switch.

Once his armor is down, Petrificus Totalus, Crucio, Avada Kedavra, levicorpus, sectumsempra, transfiguration. Choose your poison. Vader's done. Reflex saves really only work on the energy blast spells. So AK and stupefy (I seem to recall expelliarmus explicitly not having an energy blast effect in the books outside of when it collided with Avada Kedavra but I may be wrong.)

And Apparition is teleportation. How is that in doubt? So it takes concentration, sure, but we've seen it used to jump into combat before so we know that's possible, and Voldemort's the best so he could do it better. You're thinking about it from the difficulty of Harry who is really bad at it, and just learnt it. Wrong perspective there.

Oh and launching a bunch of kinetic force directly at them will be protego'd away like there's no tomorrow. Try a shield charm against Fiendfyre. See what happens.

Actually Vader has to kill Voldemort before Voldemort get's irritated enough to use that spell. Note how Harry survived most of the time by running away as fast as he could. Vader won't run so Voldemort doesn't have to worry about that. Short of bypassing his defenses and crushing voldemort (which isn't going to happen. Dolohov fired a curse at Hermione that crushes her, so Voldemort will know the countercurse. Is that a stretch? Sure, but so is Vader using the force that way when he never used it in the films regardless of how useful it would have been. Same for force choke. Unless both can be countered, then their lack of use makes same. And well, Anapneo has already been mentioned. Telekinetic walls are not high class enough to beat a good shield charm.) Vader doesn't have any options.

Oh, and I just thought of a really nasty spell to add.

"Evanesco"

One spell, and it's an entire branch of transfiguration. That's right it's the vanishing spell. Doesn't destroy things, though it can send them into non being. Anyways, I wouldn't throw my lightsaber if I was Vader.

[Traab]

"Expelliarmus!"

/vader resummons his lightsaber

"Expelliarmus!"

/vader negates this attempt with his telekinesis now that he knows what that is.

And we are back to him deflecting virtually everything, dodging what he cant deflect, running forward, and decapitating voldemort as he tries to land a spell. Seriously, in a fight where both start off with no advance warning, what stops this from looking almost exactly like the death of jango fett? deflect deflect, deflect, decapitate.

As for crucio, doesnt vader live every moment in fairly high levels of pain? I dont think crucio would do much more than piss him off. I mean, he has dealt with having three limbs severed then set on fire by freaking lava. He has felt pain before.

As for this apparition stuff, I ignore that because from what I remember, thats pretty much movie only. I dont recall the death eaters teleporting around the department of mysteries in the book. And in all honesty, im pretty sure book canon is higher level than movie canon in the harry potter universe. Its the source material after all, the movie had scenes changed to make them work better on film. I dont recall anyone, voldemort or otherwise, teleporting in mid fight as a method of playing keep away. When the two sources contradict each other, the original source is generally the one thats "right"

[Prime32]

To those saying Voldemort would open the fight by disarming Vader...

Remember that scene where Harry was being chased by Death Eaters on brooms? They picked out Harry from his decoys the instant he used Expelliarmus, because he's the only wizard who would ever use it against someone who's trying to kill him. Similarly, Death Eaters only use disabling spells if they really have to, preferring to just kill people.

[Traab]

To those saying Voldemort would open the fight by disarming Vader...

Remember that scene where Harry was being chased by Death Eaters on brooms? They picked out Harry from his decoys the instant he used Expelliarmus, because he's the only wizard who would ever use it against someone who's trying to kill him. Similarly, Death Eaters only use disabling spells if they really have to, preferring to just kill people.

Thats actually a good point, however, voldemort MIGHT want to capture vader just to find out who and what he is. Oh a side note, WOOT! Im an ettin in the playground! Time to find a new id photo.

[Xondoure]

"Expelliarmus!"

/vader resummons his lightsaber

While he does so Voldemort disables the magic resistance in his armor. Next up levicorpus.

You do realize it only has to work once yes? Also I mentioned he could pull it back.



And we are back to him deflecting virtually everything, dodging what he cant deflect, running forward, and decapitating voldemort as he tries to land a spell. Seriously, in a fight where both start off with no advance warning, what stops this from looking almost exactly like the death of jango fett? deflect deflect, deflect, decapitate.

Not that many spells can be deflected like that. Stupefy would be the big one. Avada Kedavra is apparently up for debate. :smallsigh:


As for crucio, doesnt vader live every moment in fairly high levels of pain? I dont think crucio would do much more than piss him off. I mean, he has dealt with having three limbs severed then set on fire by freaking lava. He has felt pain before.

Crucio is the kind of pain that breaks people and leaves them mentally destroyed for the rest of their lives. (Poor Longbottoms) Not sure it's even on the normal scale.


As for this apparition stuff, I ignore that because from what I remember, thats pretty much movie only. I dont recall the death eaters teleporting around the department of mysteries in the book. And in all honesty, im pretty sure book canon is higher level than movie canon in the harry potter universe. Its the source material after all, the movie had scenes changed to make them work better on film. I dont recall anyone, voldemort or otherwise, teleporting in mid fight as a method of playing keep away. When the two sources contradict each other, the original source is generally the one thats "right"

I'd have to find the books to find more examples but the ministry wizards used it against the trio when they thought one of them had set off the dark mark at the tournament. It's a fast spell. Easily fast enough to be useful on the field.

[ChaosLord29]

While he does so Voldemort disables the magic resistance in his armor. Next up levicorpus.

Once his armor is down, Petrificus Totalus, Crucio, Avada Kedavra, levicorpus, sectumsempra, transfiguration. Choose your poison. Vader's done.

You're suddenly ignoring the fact that Vader can conjure a shield of the Force in exactly the same manner as Protego. Voldy would have to be constantly dispelling it in order to get anywhere, unless it's like an antimagic field, in which case, How does he himself cast spells?

I mean look, you don't just disenchant a magically crafted item by casting 'dispel magic'. Otherwise, Voldemort (and every wizard there for that matter) could simply have cast this at the Battle of 7 Potters and disenchanted their opponents' brooms (and one motorcycle), and watched their opponents plummet to their death.

There's no real canon definition of what 'Finite (incantatem)' does, but according to the HP wiki:
"Finite Incantatem is a general counter-spell used to terminate all spell effects in a surrounding area."

There's a more detailed analysis (with some assumptions) here:http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Muggles'_Guide_to_Harry_Potter/Magic/Finite_Incantatem

The key word there is 'spell' effects. Spells. Not enchantments. I know there's not really a bright line for what separates the two in HP but hear me out. Snape uses it as a general counter spell against the curses cast at the dueling club (spells). Hermione uses it against the rogue bludger (enchanted item). I'm inclined to think that it's not a blanket disenchantment ability, but rather an easy way for a Wizard to dismiss spells of lesser calibre. A 1st year can't use finite to counter an Auror's stunning spell for instance, the same way no one could use it to disenchant a Horcrux. Vader's armor isn't quite on the level of such an artifact, but I'd say a better comparison would be Gryffindors sword, which wasn't so much enchanted as it was created using magical techniques and magic itself (by Goblins).



Avada Kedavra is apparently up for debate.

Not up for debate. It does not destroy matter, it does not even phase inferi or animated objects, so it can certainly, beyond the shadow of a doubt be used to deflect AK, the otherwise 'unblockable spell'. Non directed spells like Confringo, or Fiendfyre, different story. Spells with actual 'missiles' like pretty much everything else, blockable.


Crucio is the kind of pain that breaks people and leaves them mentally destroyed for the rest of their lives. (Poor Longbottoms) Not sure it's even on the normal scale.


Harry survives more than a little bit of it unscathed, and Vader is arguably a little bit off the deep end as it stands (Casual disregard for life and all). Plus, most of his limbs are cybernetic and most of his nerve endings are dead. It's made pretty clear that once you're put into that life support armor, you stop 'feeling'.


Reflex saves really only work on the energy blast spells. So AK and stupefy (I seem to recall expelliarmus explicitly not having an energy blast effect in the books outside of when it collided with Avada Kedavra but I may be wrong.)

But you see, that's the point right here. Expelliarmus must have some kind of projectile element in order to collide with another spell. The ranged touch attack I think is the best metaphor, and with precognition and Force fueled reflexes, Vader's Touch AC should not be discounted.


Oh and launching a bunch of kinetic force directly at them will be protego'd away like there's no tomorrow. Try a shield charm against Fiendfyre. See what happens.

A bolt of kinetic force cannot be protego'd away any more than thrown rock can. Force Push uses kinetic force, not magical energy. Force Lightning is more or less the most pure expression of the Force which can still be felt physically (For the record, Vader cannot produce Force Lightning). When the Force itself is exerted against an individual, it's effects are metaphysical, even spiritual, and the best example of it's use would be the 'exorcising' of a Force Spirit.

Force Barrier (alternatively, Force Shield or Protection) is interesting because it's both a protective physical barrier (it can block blaster bolts), as well as a protection against less than physical Force Techniques because it draws on the user's emotion and will. There are separate techniques which are more powerful at solely protecting the user against specifically physical or metaphysical attacks, but Force Barrier is a generalized application of the technique.


I'd have to find the books to find more examples but the ministry wizards used it against the trio when they thought one of them had set off the dark mark at the tournament. It's a fast spell. Easily fast enough to be useful on the field.

It's not fast enough to be used to dodge spells, that's for sure. They actually do a good job of breaking down the components, and it's not as simple as you might think. Even if you're practiced at the spell itself, it's not the kind of spell you can use to go somewhere you haven't been to, seen or otherwise be able to picture clearly in your mind. Distractions, complications (like fluctuations in mass or destination) result in splinching, which is not a readily curable condition except with outside assistance.

At best, I'd say even a master wizard like Voldemort could use it to teleport only somewhere he's very familiar with, and can readily conjure to his mind in combat. And even then, if he's struck by even a Force Push, it's liable to result in some kind of mishap, which is further complicated by the fact that while aparating, Voldemort can't be using his wand to cast any offensive or defensive spells.

Technical details of aparation:
You have to be able to clear your mind and focus on your destiantion. Difficult, but not impossible in combat situation.

You have to be able to picture your destination and arrival. It's not enough to think of a place, even if you're looking directly at it, you have to be able to envision what you will see when you're done aparating, hence why most wizards close their eyes to aparate.

You can aparate with more than one person, and it's even possible to 'follow' someone's aparate, but again, you have to have a very clear conception of both yourself as you are leaving, and yourself arriving.

It's more or less like the Transporter in Star Trek. Sure, it technically works at close to the speed of light and can be used in a split second, but anything which disrupts the initial scan, or anything wrong on the other end of the pad can result in potentially fatal mishaps. And unlike Star Trek, there's no technician to initiate the secondary pattern buffer to compensate for the unexpected.

[ChaosLord29]

Ah, I should have known the greater expanded universe would have a few. The first three are clones of each other, the fourth is listed as non-canon. At least one other actually gave Vader the finger and left.

Of the remaining, how many existed simultaneously? How many could instantly traverse unlimited distances to appear at Vader's side on a whim? Was it ever demonstrated that Vader assembled an actual unit of trained force users?

Voldemort made heavy use of a mass of powerful, obedient, dark wizards who be anywhere on the planet in a heartbeat. Only deep magic could render select locations safe from their instant assaults and untraceable, unblockable summons. Even Hogwarts couldn't hold out against a sustained penetration.

This is a one on one fight, no minions, no reinforcements, no orbital strikes lol. I was thinking a muggles vs wizards thread might be fun to start though . . .

[Xondoure]

Since when can he throw up a force field? He can absorb energy (apparently.) But then just don't use energy attacks. The point is to break the sith sorcery (also apparently) on his armor, and thus, make him vulnerable to other attacks.

And the Longbottoms were exposed to it for hours. Harry was crucified for maybe a few minutes. It's magic pain, and thus cuts right through any numbness Vader might have and hits his nerve center directly. Can you imagine what that would be like if your nerves had been off for that long? Assuming he's always in pain, then it really wouldn't be on the same level as Crucio.

As for Apparition, again, that's not how we see it used at all. The ministry people apparated right in to the forest in a circle, so unless you're saying they had all stood in that circle in the woods before just in case, the spell works a little better than that. Yes you have to know what you're doing. Voldemort is not a seventh year wizard.

As a sidenote, I really do like Vader. Just not as an all powerful unstoppable killing machine. Because that's not what makes him awesome.

[ChaosLord29]

Since when can he throw up a force field? He can absorb energy (apparently.) But then just don't use energy attacks. The point is to break the sith sorcery (also apparently) on his armor, and thus, make him vulnerable to other attacks.

Not a force field, a Force Shield. It's a rudimentary Force technique that Jedi and Sith use as a general defense against other Force Powers. It's not as effective as countering your opponents Force Push with one of your own, or blocking their mental assault by focusing your mind into an invincible bastion of faith and will, and it's not as useful against blaster bolts as your lightsaber; but in a pinch, it can do the job of all three.

I've heard it both ways that Vader used Force Absorb against Han, but also it was just his indestructible right guantlet. There's no canon explanation for it, but if he can use Force Absorb, Vader could technically use that against say Fiend Fyre in order to not only put it out, but draw strength from it. A risky move for a Jedi (you have to resist the corruption of Dark Side techniques you absorb, letting go of the power slowly and without ambition), but Vader could more or less bask in the power of such a use of the Dark Arts.

Alternatively, if you go with him having an indestructible gauntlet, he can use it in lieu of his lightsaber to deflect any an every spell.


And the Longbottoms were exposed to it for hours. Harry was crucified for maybe a few minutes. It's magic pain, and thus cuts right through any numbness Vader might have and hits his nerve center directly. Can you imagine what that would be like if your nerves had been off for that long? Assuming he's always in pain, then it really wouldn't be on the same level as Crucio.

First of all, it never quite connected with me that the verb form of cruci was to be 'crucified'. Huh. Moving right along, Crucio clearly affects the nerves in a physical manner even if the pain is magically stimulated. We can tell, because various wizards are able to inure themselves against the pain. We can tell, because the pain itself persists after the spell, not simply as a memory, but as an after image, as well as the fact that it causes spasming and seizures. If it were a purely illusory attack, I'd say it could be effective, but I think it's pretty clear that when you use Crucio, you're feeling real pain. Magically induced maybe, but potentially the same kind of pain that could be replicated with say an Agonizer (man, I am full of Star Trek references today).


As for Apparition, again, that's not how we see it used at all. The ministry people apparated right in to the forest in a circle, so unless you're saying they had all stood in that circle in the woods before just in case, the spell works a little better than that. Yes you have to know what you're doing. Voldemort is not a seventh year wizard.

I suppose I did make an assumption there. I'd always figured that was a case of Side-alon apparition, and that the first person who used it was the one who had been there before(Hermione I think). Alternatively, I figured (Hermione) could have just pictured a forest, in Britain and 'blind apparated' as it were (BSG fans may now postulate this as a risky and potentially very dangerous maneuver.

Turning to best canon description I could find, courtesy of HP Wiki (Sourced, (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Apparition#cite_note-HBP-0)): "One must be completely determined to reach one's destination, and move without haste, but with deliberation."

Also, I forgot that Dobby manages to apparate to the Shell Cottage, a place he'd never been before. Now, House-elf magic works differently, but this suggests that all one really needs is a good description and reference point. So, you could probably definitely apparate to somewhere within your line of sight, within a good few feet. But you couldn't do it in a hurry, and you couldn't really predict your exact facing/positioning when you arrived.

So, dodging a spell with it is out of the question. I don't care how good you are with spells unless you've got a Shaolin monk's ability for serenity in the face of pain, your subconscious is going to foul things up right quick. That combined with the fact that using it in the middle of a fight would leave you more or less flat-footed (not necessarily in the D&D sense) once you arrived I think can be used to explain why wizards don't seem to apparate except as a more final means of escape.


As a sidenote, I really do like Vader. Just not as an all powerful unstoppable killing machine. Because that's not what makes him awesome.

I believe you. Quite honestly, the fact that you like both characters is the very reason you've stuck to your guns and through this long debate. I must applaud you and say that this is one thing we definitely agree on. Vader and Voldemort's ability to kick ass is not the only (or primary) thing that makes them cool. It's their style and flair and character while kicking ass that makes us love them. Nor is this thread about proving which character is cooler than the other. It's just a sort of really cool thought experiment or brain teaser for those who like that sort of thing.

[Xondoure]

Just figured I should clarify every few pages so I don't sound like I'm simply bashing. :smallbiggrin:

That I've heard of. (Force Shield, I'm lazy about quoting) But the problem with that is there's no reason Voldemort has to use spells that would be of low enough power to be absorbed. Whereas telekinesis is pretty firmly in the boundaries of what protego can defend against.

As for force absorb. Yeah I don't see it putting out Fiendfyre. There's absorbing energy, and then there's absorbing energy. Fiendfyre is the kind of thing that would cause overload. (It kills horcruxes, which absorb pretty much anything.)

So going back to scenarios here's what it seems to be so far. Voldemort launches AK at Vader. He parries. Vader tries to close the gap with a force leap. Voldemort teleports out of range and starts flying. Vader starts throwing objects, Voldemort either makes his cloak repellent, or sends them back to earth, turns them into birds, sends them back at Vader, whatever he feels is flashiest. Voldemort disarms Vader. Vader calls his lightsaber back maybe throwing a boulder to buy himself time. Still wouldn't really be fast enough to interrupt the line of sight needed for spells and Voldemort fries Vader's armor. If the spell doesn't rip his armor apart completely Vader's back to parrying spells/force abilities. To try and make the fight more interesting Voldemort transfigures the surrounding scenery into a bunch of giant snakes who all come crawling at Vader. While he's busy mowing them down with various lightsaber and force techniques Voldemort makes himself invisible. He's seen the force user react to things he can't see, so he knows the man can still dodge, but he's confident his spell plus occlumency is enough to keep the other unaware of his exact location. Using his super ventriloquism Voldemort begins to taunt the dark lord of the Sith. A boasting match ensues. Deciding to make things more interesting he casts imperio, and is surprised to find a strong amount of resistance on the other side. In an effort to make things more interesting he throws out a confundus charm and tries again (seriously, why does no one ever try this?) Yet still the Sith Lord resists. Growing bored. Voldemort vanishes Vader's helmet. Then he transfigures Darth Vader into a ferret. And then he kills the ferret. Or let's the ferret live out it's days unable to fully grasp what memories it has in its head because it's a ferret. Everyone shudders at the fridge horror that lies beyond transfiguration.

[Traab]

The aurors apparated to a location that magic had come from, it can be reasonably assumed that that was a maneuver they had been extensively trained in at the academy, but they didnt use it to dodge spells and keep up an assault. Thats my whole point. We never see apparition in the books be used as a method of dodging spells. As for disarm, deactivate magical armor, kill, etc. You seem to be giving voldemort an awful lot of foreknowledge on what vader is capable of and what he needs to do to beat him. You still havent countered the jango fett death except by claiming "not many spells can be deflected like that" Which is wrong, but deflected or outright blocked, it doesnt matter, vader is coming for you and is stopping your spells from hitting him.

Ten paces? Voldemort has enough time for 3-5 spells before vader is in range to cut off his freaking head. That isnt a lot of time to figure out whats wrong, come up with a counter plan, and implement it. Its not impossible that voldemort might be able to luckily guess a spell that vader cant just easily block/dodge/deflect while moving forward, im just saying that the initial rush is probably going to be vaders best chance at a victory. Because it will be the hardest thing for voldemort to stop.

[ChaosLord29]

@Xonodure

That I've heard of. (Force Shield, I'm lazy about quoting) But the problem with that is there's no reason Voldemort has to use spells that would be of low enough power to be absorbed. Whereas telekinesis is pretty firmly in the boundaries of what protego can defend against.

Telekinesis is the moving around of objects, Force Push is a blast of raw kinetic energy. Sort of like directed explosive force, the kind of thing that ruptures organs and crushes bones, as well as knocking you backwards. The best example of that in the movies is when Obi-wan and Qui-gonn are walking around in episode I cutting down droids with barely so much as a glance in their direction. On one hand, that's the droids being cheap, on the other, its the fact that they're not just falling over, their internal components are being smashed.

Also I think there's a bit of a contradiction their. Voldemort can use Protego to protect himself from abilities like Push and Thrown Objects, but Vader can't use the equivalent Force Technique to protect himself because Voldemort's spells aren't "of low enough power"?

It seems like the assumption there is that Vader's abilities are of a low enough power to be deflected by Protego, or else that Force Shield is somehow weaker than Protego. Either way, you're assuming that Vader can't put just as much power into his Force Abilities that Voldemort can into his spells.


As for force absorb. Yeah I don't see it putting out Fiendfyre. There's absorbing energy, and then there's absorbing energy. Fiendfyre is the kind of thing that would cause overload. (It kills horcruxes, which absorb pretty much anything.)

Force absorb can be used against Force Lightning, which I'd say is a pretty fair analogue for Fiendfyre (though again, it doesn't spread like fire, and isn't quite as flashy with the evil animal personification). And there's really no such thing as an "Overload" on the Force, not in the movies anyway. And we are excluding EU right?

To address the point more directly though, it probably wouldn't put out the fiery element of Fiendfyre, but it would rob it of it's dark magical power, reducing it to regular old fire. And Vader's suit just happens to be fireproof without really trying.


So going back to scenarios here's what it seems to be so far. Voldemort launches AK at Vader. He parries. Vader tries to close the gap with a force leap. Voldemort teleports out of range and starts flying. Vader starts throwing objects, Voldemort either makes his cloak repellent, or sends them back to earth, turns them into birds, sends them back at Vader, whatever he feels is flashiest. Voldemort disarms Vader. Vader calls his lightsaber back maybe throwing a boulder to buy himself time. Still wouldn't really be fast enough to interrupt the line of sight needed for spells and Voldemort fries Vader's armor. If the spell doesn't rip his armor apart completely Vader's back to parrying spells/force abilities. To try and make the fight more interesting Voldemort transfigures the surrounding scenery into a bunch of giant snakes who all come crawling at Vader. While he's busy mowing them down with various lightsaber and force techniques Voldemort makes himself invisible. He's seen the force user react to things he can't see, so he knows the man can still dodge, but he's confident his spell plus occlumency is enough to keep the other unaware of his exact location. Using his super ventriloquism Voldemort begins to taunt the dark lord of the Sith. A boasting match ensues. Deciding to make things more interesting he casts imperio, and is surprised to find a strong amount of resistance on the other side. In an effort to make things more interesting he throws out a confundus charm and tries again (seriously, why does no one ever try this?) Yet still the Sith Lord resists. Growing bored. Voldemort vanishes Vader's helmet. Then he transfigures Darth Vader into a ferret. And then he kills the ferret. Or let's the ferret live out it's days unable to fully grasp what memories it has in its head because it's a ferret. Everyone shudders at the fridged horror that lies beyond transfiguration.

I'd say that's definitely a best case scenario for Voldemort, but I have one or two points. One, Vader gets the first move. I'm not talking about rolling initiative here, I mean Vader has the sharper reflexes and faster agility. I'd say Traab was being generous when he said Voldemort has time to get off a few spells before Vader is in melee range.

So, Vader Force Jumps at Voldemort, moving almost faster than the eye can see, swinging his lightsaber in a wide arc, looking to finish the battle fast. Is Voldemort fast enough to raise a spell shield capable of blocking the lightsaber? Probably. Is he fast enough to fly out of the way before Vader can strike? Riskier, he might be grazed by the lightsaber while flying backwards. Can he apparate out of the way? I really don't see it happening unless he's going to apparate somewhere he can without having to think about it. As I've pointed out, Apparating can't be rushed, it has to be "deliberate". And there's nothing about black armored man suddenly next to you swinging a sword of light and heat that doesn't say "rushed".

So, Voldemort's best chance is to either raise a shield, or fly backwards and then upwards (at which point Vader probably mutters "Impressive":smallbiggrin:). Either of those actions leaves the ball in Vader's court, since Voldemort can't cast more than one spell at a time. He raises the shield, Vader's blow is deflected, he uses Force Choke. Voldemort flies into the air, Vader misses, and brings down a crushing Force Wave over Voldemort's head to bring him down to earth.

I won't go too far into the 'blow by blow' because there's a lot of extrapolation and assumptions being made, and it's impossible to completely get into the heads of these characters.

A final point though, you seem to have missed my arguments about how Voldemort can't simply disenchant Vader's armor, any more than he could simply disenchant Gryffindor's Sword. Finite Incantatem only works against spell effects, and even then, ones you're sure that can be canceled or overwhelmed easily. It doesn't work on brooms, and it doesn't work on Horcruxes, so it's pretty safe to say that it won't work on Vader's armor which lies somewhere in between the two in terms of magical enchantment (Sith Alchemy and Sorcery).

I like the transmuting snakes thing though, it neatly circumvents the minion rule, since this is something born of Voldemort's own individual power. You're right in that Vader would have no problem at all cutting them down, but it would work as a good distraction. You have to admit though that Force Techniques are easier to multi-task than spells.

@Traab

Ten paces? Voldemort has enough time for 3-5 spells before vader is in range to cut off his freaking head. That isnt a lot of time to figure out whats wrong, come up with a counter plan, and implement it. Its not impossible that voldemort might be able to luckily guess a spell that vader cant just easily block/dodge/deflect while moving forward, im just saying that the initial rush is probably going to be vaders best chance at a victory. Because it will be the hardest thing for voldemort to stop.

You and I seem to be of a like mind here, but I have to point out that Jango had already had his jetpack disabled, which would normally allow him to fly away from the Jedi's wrath. Voldemort can fly without the aid of the jetpack, and if he sees Vader block a spell or two with his saber or (seemingly) bare gauntlet, he's more than likely to fly into the air and formulate a strategy before Vader is in killing range.

It's at that point that I think Voldemort is in for the surprise of his (soon to be cut short) life, when Vader leaps 40-60 feet into the air, directly towards him, blasting him back down to earth with a Force Wave, or directly choking the life from his body, even as he swings his lightsaber at him for a killing blow. Either way, the Dark Lord only has a split second to react (without the benefit of being precognitent) and can't cast more than one spell at a time. His only hope is to conjure an equally powerful wave of Force of his own, and hope that it's fast enough not only to counter Vader's but powerful enough to stop the Sith Lord's forward progress. Possible for a master wizard of Voldemort's caliber? Yes. Likely to be his first thought in the middle of a combat situation? Hard to say.

His go to for any situation seems to be AK whatever happens to be in his way, in which case, Vader deflects the blast with his saber or his gauntlet, and the Force Choke or Force Wave hits Voldy full force. He's either knocked to the ground from 30-50ft up and crushed by the wave, or his throat is crushed and he wasted his chance to use the anti-choking spell and now has to try and use it while being choked.

[Xondoure]

Re: Telekinesis. Why yes, yes I am. Because telekinesis is pretty basic when it comes to magic power. And such uses of it could be blocked by a shield charm, which wouldn't stand up to a killing curse. What I'm saying is that force shield doesn't seem like it's enough to stop a wall of force thrown by a jedi or no one would ever get pushed. But Protego on the other hand has been shown to deflect just such a spell (stupefy.)

Force lightning is most certainly not fiendfyre's equal. That would be crucio judging by how Palpatine used it. The solid beam one I'm not so sure of an exact counterpart (other than movie Voldemort causing a freaking lightning storm way more powerful than any force lightning I've seen.) Neither has been shown to have the kind of power that fiendfyre has. That stuff kills horcruxes. Horcruxes which absorb any and all punishment thrown at them. Except for Basilisk fangs and Fiendfyre. (And so help me if anyone mentions Phoenix tears.) So force absorb, unless it's literally infinite (in which case, why doesn't Vader simply absorb the power from Luke's lightsaber?) is not going to cut it.

I disagree on Vader striking first because neither of them have ever really struck hard and fast right from the onset. Both like to boast a lot. So the fight would probably begin with them circling each other. And Vader's style is more to deflect any incoming attacks and eventually overpower the other side, not force leap right into it (he learned that lesson from being burned alive) And Voldemort has far less patience so he'd probably strike first, but as I said, I'm willing to concede that shot would be parried. It's here where Vader might try and leap in to the fray. I'm pretty convinced Voldemort would apparate out seeing as the blade coming towards him just parried the killing curse.

And voldemort was flying and casting at the same time. What's more, wizards can use a crushing downward force to send someone to the ground. Voldemort would be able to counter that.

And sure he can disenchant it, but not with finite incantatem (maybe finite) The armor was forged all magical to make it force resistant that doesn't mean there's no upward limit of force it simply can't take (I'd say AK would be enough to cut it off from the force, as that's what the spell does, cut off life force. And he's sure to try it again as soon as he get's a chance to when Vader doesn't have his lightsaber. If it doesn't kill Vader (which it might. It did hit the armor, so whatever affect it has on objects would be included, and magic does not mix well with tech, so it could shut off his life support.) It would leave him vulnerable to say, transfiguration (most charms he could probably absorb.)

[ChaosLord29]

Re: Telekinesis. Why yes, yes I am. Because telekinesis is pretty basic when it comes to magic power. And such uses of it could be blocked by a shield charm, which wouldn't stand up to a killing curse. What I'm saying is that force shield doesn't seem like it's enough to stop a wall of force thrown by a jedi or no one would ever get pushed. But Protego on the other hand has been shown to deflect just such a spell (stupefy.)

Okay, once again you're dealing with the fact that the films were made before special effects were at the point where they could be used to create big showy Force Powers. Necessary practical limitation of film making, not necessarily the Force. Secondly, the reason you don't see push and a lot of powers being used in the middle of lightsaber combat is because of techniques like Shield. Unless you are completely confident you can overwhelm your opponents shield, (i.e. Master vs Padawan), you need some kind of opportunity or opening against your opponent, hence why most Force Powers are used as sort of a combo technique with Lightsaber dueling.

Force Powers also don't scale the same way that spells seem to. When Vader uses Push, he can basically amp it up a few orders of magnitude higher than even an average Jedi Knight. So even though it's a rudimentary technique, knowledge of a rudimentary shielding technique isn't going to necessarily counter it. Compare that to the HP Universe where Voldemort's stunning or summoning spell isn't really going to be that much more powerful than Potter's. Voldemort can cast spells though that are orders of magnitude more powerful.


Force lightning is most certainly not fiendfyre's equal. That would be crucio judging by how Palpatine used it. The solid beam one I'm not so sure of an exact counterpart (other than movie Voldemort causing a freaking lightning storm way more powerful than any force lightning I've seen.) Neither has been shown to have the kind of power that fiendfyre has. That stuff kills horcruxes. Horcruxes which absorb any and all punishment thrown at them. Except for Basilisk fangs and Fiendfyre. (And so help me if anyone mentions Phoenix tears.) So force absorb, unless it's literally infinite (in which case, why doesn't Vader simply absorb the power from Luke's lightsaber?) is not going to cut it.

Crucio causes pain without physical damage. Force Lightning is just what it sounds like. Raw electrical energy guided and fueled by the force. Sure Palpatine was using it to torture Luke, but in combat it's more like being struck by a lightning bolt (or several depending on the wielder). On that note, shield can provide limited protection from Force Lightning, and a strong Jedi can even resist it's effects by sheer force of will. You need absorb or a specific lightside technique to truly counter it though.

See part of the problem here is that the horcrux's are plot devices, and even the fiendfyre thing was sort of a Deus Ex Machina on how to destroy that Horcrux in a hurry. It strikes me more that it's a specific weakness of Horcruxes more than it was the raw power of fiendfyre. Especially considering it was conjured by a less than stellar wizard (who subsequently lost control of it). But this discussion is devolving into too specific an analysis of a spell Voldemort is unlikely to use against a single foe, and one we never see him use in the films (for good reason I imagine; fiendfyre strikes me as the thing that a fellow dark arts user could quickly turn against a wizard silly enough to conjure such a recklessly destructive spell).


I disagree on Vader striking first because neither of them have ever really struck hard and fast right from the onset. Both like to boast a lot. So the fight would probably begin with them circling each other. And Vader's style is more to deflect any incoming attacks and eventually overpower the other side, not force leap right into it (he learned that lesson from being burned alive) And Voldemort has far less patience so he'd probably strike first, but as I said, I'm willing to concede that shot would be parried. It's here where Vader might try and leap in to the fray. I'm pretty convinced Voldemort would apparate out seeing as the blade coming towards him just parried the killing curse.

You're right that Vader is no frenzied berserker or blood knight (Darth Maul), but he's hardly a cautious combatant. Especially if Anakin (god I hate referencing the prequels) is any indication. Sure he's less reckless by the third film, but as Vader he's almost ten times more powerful and embittered. Vader is a strike first kind of guy, just like Voldemort I would say.

And what is it that has you so convinced Wizards can apparate out of the path of enemy attacks when we have literally never seen it used in the books or films to that effect?


And voldemort was flying and casting at the same time. What's more, wizards can use a crushing downward force to send someone to the ground. Voldemort would be able to counter that.

You're right, I'm not saying that wizards can't maintain two or more spells at a time, just that they can't cast more than one. Voldemort has to cast the spell that allows him to fly before he can cast another one. From there he's pretty much set. Compare that to Vader though who can Force Jump, use Force Choke/Push and swing his lightsaber all at the same time.

I did admit that Voldemort could counter such a technique, but the problem is, once again, that he can't counter it and block Vader's lightsaber strike at the same time.


And sure he can disenchant it, but not with finite incantatem (maybe finite). The armor was forged all magical to make it force resistant that doesn't mean there's no upward limit of force it simply can't take (I'd say AK would be enough to cut it off from the force, as that's what the spell does, cut off life force). And he's sure to try it again as soon as he get's a chance to when Vader doesn't have his lightsaber. If it doesn't kill Vader (which it might. It did hit the armor, so whatever affect it has on objects would be included, and magic does not mix well with tech, so it could shut off his life support.) It would leave him vulnerable to say, transfiguration (most charms he could probably absorb.)

Finite is just a derivation of Finite incantatem. It's dispel magic as opposed to counterspell, and in neither case is it ever made apparent that they could be used to disenchant items of power greater than that one Bludger Hermione stops. Also, I think you may have the wrong idea about Vader's armor. It wasn't specifically forged to resist Force Powers and whatnot. It was just forged to be really effing tough against everything. To extend the D&D metaphor, it's more like having Adamatine Armor or innate Energy Resistance rather than a specific enchantment.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue that his armor will protect him from AK or most other directed spells. Explosive force? Covered. Burns or electrocution? Not a problem. He's got his lightsaber and right hand for pretty much everything else, including AK.

[Traab]

Re: Telekinesis. Why yes, yes I am. Because telekinesis is pretty basic when it comes to magic power.

No, it isnt. To get Force telekinesis levels of control over an item, requires using a combination of multiple spells. You have wingardium, accio, a banishing charm, and that one that smashes things into the ground. Meanwhile a force user is just mentally willing an item to move how he wants it to. There is no, lift, move to the side, and banish upwards, its "go over there, really fast"

Im not saying that voldemort cant counter vader force chucking random objects, because he can, he just doesnt have the same fine control over movement that vader would have, at least, not without a great deal more effort and concentration.

[Xondoure]

No, it isnt. To get Force telekinesis levels of control over an item, requires using a combination of multiple spells. You have wingardium, accio, a banishing charm, and that one that smashes things into the ground. Meanwhile a force user is just mentally willing an item to move how he wants it to. There is no, lift, move to the side, and banish upwards, its "go over there, really fast"

Im not saying that voldemort cant counter vader force chucking random objects, because he can, he just doesnt have the same fine control over movement that vader would have, at least, not without a great deal more effort and concentration.

"Locomotor." Done. Wizards can make a kitchen clean itself, and that's not even very advanced. I'd like to see a Jedi pull that trick.

[Traab]

"Locomotor." Done. Wizards can make a kitchen clean itself, and that's not even very advanced. I'd like to see a Jedi pull that trick.

I get the feeling those "clean the counter" types spells are very specific. For example, that spell ONLY cleans the counters. You couldnt use it to collect dirty linen and put it in a basket. Thats really the problem with a lot of spells, they are very very specific, and cant be used for much beyond that narrow scope. Locomotor seems to just make objects follow along behind you, like cars on a train. Whereas the force is entirely will based and can do a wide variety of things just by virtue of wanting it. No exhaustive list of hundreds of spells for every occasion. Instead its a handful of abilities with an extremely broad range of applications. And yes, I bet if the urge hit him, Vader could have matched those house cleaning charms with an application of the force. The thing is, we rarely ever see the force get used outside of training or combat. It would be as if the only time we see spells used is in class or when fighting death eaters. It makes it harder to be certain that there is a spell capable of doing xyz. You can reasonably extrapolate based off of similar effects you have seen/read, but you cant point to a specific spot and say, "there, he uses that ability there."

[Fragenstein]

Okay, once again you're dealing with the fact that the films...

Yes. Let's deal with the films for the moment. You can hardly get closer to the original source than that, even with the limitations of special effects.

Vader's precognition failed to show Luke leaping out of the carbonite trap. Vader was 100% caught off guard by that relatively basic move (younglings can probably jump that high). It wasn't until a random noise caused Vader to look upwards that he even realized the boy wasn't in the pit.

He then was unable to leap up after Luke or use his TK to pull him down.

Vader was also surprised when Luke jumped to his death. There was no precognitive warning about that, and again Vader's TK was unable to catch the falling son so that he could be taken alive. It doesn't matter that Luke didn't actually die; brainwashing him would have been much easier in captivity than by allowing him to run around with his friends for another movie.

Vader was again taken by surprise when, in the final combat of Return of the Jdei, an enraged Luke dove at him from his catwalk/air duct hiding place.

Mace Windu's precognition was unable to keep Anakin from blindsiding him and Luke's own precognition was unable to keep from falling into Jabba's pit trap.

Further, Luke's Force Absorb didn't keep him from getting a hand chopped off and neither did Vader. Vader also wasn't able to protect himself (or at least his Sith-alchemy life support), from being wrecked by Force Lightning or from his own body being burned down to nubs by heat as Anakin. Nor was Force Absorb any sort of protection from Order 66.

Clearly, Force Precognition and Force Absorb are not the perfect defenses people are pretending them to be. Jedi and Sith both get caught by surprise quite often and they're every bit as vulnerable to energy attacks as anyone else, outside of a saber deflection... which won't help against any sort of area-effect attack, of which Voldemort has plenty.


And if we're going to restrict this to a one-on-one attack (banning the use of the Very-Voldemort-centric Dark Mark summoning), then we're foregoing base personalities and rendering the entire fight down to a logistical comparison of raw power. Once again, Voldemort wins.

Besides, if we really ARE going to play both personalities out to their fullest then they'd waste the first fifteen minutes of the combat trying to convince the other to join their side.

Vader's ability to sense Dark Side potential in a target would mark Voldemort as an awesome ally who could expand the power of Palpatine's regime immensely. Voldemort, on the other hand, should be able to see that Darth is certainly no muggle and would quickly realize that he could lead the Deatheaters to unimaginable victories.

[ChaosLord29]

Yes. Let's deal with the films for the moment. You can hardly get closer to the original source than that, even with the limitations of special effects.

Vader's precognition failed to show Luke leaping out of the carbonite trap. Vader was 100% caught off guard by that relatively basic move (younglings can probably jump that high). It wasn't until a random noise caused Vader to look upwards that he even realized the boy wasn't in the pit.

He then was unable to leap up after Luke or use his TK to pull him down.

Vader was also surprised when Luke jumped to his death. There was no precognitive warning about that, and again Vader's TK was unable to catch the falling son so that he could be taken alive. It doesn't matter that Luke didn't actually die; brainwashing him would have been much easier in captivity than by allowing him to run around with his friends for another movie.

Vader was again taken by surprise when, in the final combat of Return of the Jdei, an enraged Luke dove at him from his catwalk/air duct hiding place.

Mace Windu's precognition was unable to keep Anakin from blindsiding him and Luke's own precognition was unable to keep from falling into Jabba's pit trap.

You know, you're right. Precognition isn't perfect, it does allow you to be surprised, especially if your mind is on something else, or you're not directly focusing on your opponent. Furthermore, other Force users taking advantage of the same precognitive ability, often interpret that split second reaction a little further, hence why lightsaber and Force duels are often so complicated, they are by necessity carried out several moves in advance, like a chess game.

Furthermore, any supernatural senses granted by the Force can be of course be fooled or clouded by powerful emotions or certain other Force Techniques.

I think if you'll look carefully, just about everyone one of your examples there falls into one of the categories I've listed. Luke and Vader is again difficult material to draw on, because they are father and son. They share a powerful Force bond, and whenever they battle their is a fierce war of emotions on both sides. In either case, it's far from the typical duel between Jedi, even if it is the canon.

To reiterate, I'm fully prepared to admit that precognition is not a perfect defense. It is however, I believe, more than adequate to allow Vader to deflect any incoming spell thrown at him by Voldemort. Why? Because even if Voldemort shields his mind from Vader (Occlumency does have a counterpart Force technique), the spells themselves still have to travel at a speed significantly slower than blaster bolts or even bullets, I daresay. Vader may not even need to be precognitive at all, his reflexes are sharper than any wizards by wrote mastery of the Force and years of combat experience.


Further, Luke's Force Absorb didn't keep him from getting a hand chopped off and neither did Vader. Vader also wasn't able to protect himself (or at least his Sith-alchemy life support), from being wrecked by Force Lightning or from his own body being burned down to nubs by heat as Anakin. Nor was Force Absorb any sort of protection from Order 66.

Clearly, Force Precognition and Force Absorb are not the perfect defenses people are pretending them to be. Jedi and Sith both get caught by surprise quite often and they're every bit as vulnerable to energy attacks as anyone else, outside of a saber deflection... which won't help against any sort of area-effect attack, of which Voldemort has plenty.


Let's clear something up, Luke can't use Force Absorb at that point in the series, nor can I even think of any EU example where Force Absorb was used against a lightsaber. Anakin certainly didn't know it by Episode III, it's something he learned later as Vader. It's an incredibly advanced technique, the equal of Force Lightning in it's usage, and very specialized. The only Jedi ever to demonstrate it in the films is Yoda, and even that's debatable, as there is a light side technique for canceling Force Lightning without using Force Absorb

Maybe Vader could have absorbed the lightning that Palpatine turned on him, but the point of that whole situation was Vader was now willing to sacrifice himself for his son. It's the same with Order 66, most Jedi don't know Force Absorb, and the Jedi had already been placing their trust in the Clone Troopers. Most importantly, Order 66 was first and foremost a plot device, more than anything else, and the Jedi killed during it might as well have been extras judging by the films (I don't think you even would know any of their names unless you'd done some cursory EU research).

Again, I'm not saying that Force Absorb (which isn't even Canon by the way, lots of people just say it was Vader's Indestructible Gauntlet), and Precognition make Vader invulnerable. I am saying there's no good reason why the pair of them shouldn't allow him to deflect or absorb just about anything Voldemort can throw at him.


And if we're going to restrict this to a one-on-one attack (banning the use of the Very-Voldemort-centric Dark Mark summoning), then we're foregoing base personalities and rendering the entire fight down to a logistical comparison of raw power. Once again, Voldemort wins.

I do think it would be a very Voldemort thing to do to call in his Death Eaters. I also think Vader would go into this fight with less than an entire legion of the 501st backing him up.

I proposed this VS thread as a 1v1 because allies and troops further complicate the issue, but for the record, it is by no means meant to be a raw comparison of power. There's also, skill, cunning, technique, tactics and the other fundamental elements of their character to consider.


Besides, if we really ARE going to play both personalities out to their fullest then they'd waste the first fifteen minutes of the combat trying to convince the other to join their side.

Vader's ability to sense Dark Side potential in a target would mark Voldemort as an awesome ally who could expand the power of Palpatine's regime immensely. Voldemort, on the other hand, should be able to see that Darth is certainly no muggle and would quickly realize that he could lead the Deatheaters to unimaginable victories.

All right, I could see that. Ultimately though, Vader's loyalty is to the Empire, and Voldemort isn't about to play second fiddle to the emperor. So does that really change anything? I think they're both equally likely to break of 'negotiations' in an attempt to strike first, but I think Vader would still get the drop on the old man thanks to his superior agility and reflexes.

[Fragenstein]

<snip>

Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tutaminis) states that all Jedi are expected to master some degree of the Tutaminis skills prior to graduation. It also gives a few examples of how it can be used to catch/deflect lightsabers and seems to place raw blaster deflection in the same 'rare' category of mastery.

I bring this up because it's been claimed that Voldemort's area-effect spells would be countered by Vader's Force Absorb abilities. I say it's not that easy.

You also need to keep in mind that not all spells show themselves as a slow-moving pulse of energy. Some are instant and invisible. It keeps being brought up time and time again that anything Vader can't absorb can be deflected. Some spells have no true point-of-origin.

Well, he can't deflect the floor beneath himself detonating in a lethal explosion. Further, not all spells are slow moving. Many instant effects have already been mentioned pages ago.

You should also stop calling Voldemort an old man. Remember, this is post reincarnation -- which means he has a brand new, healthy body to make use of and his reaction times are quick enough to out-duel any wizard outside of the Elder Wand.

Further, we're starting this fight 1v1. If both characters are to realistically draw upon all of their staple resources, then call in the 501st by all means. They still can't teleport. Deatheaters will be there well before they even pinpoint the combat location. After that, the well-trained muggles would be neutralized with any number of single spells in a heartbeat.

Expecting Voldemort to seriously fight someone without making use of his Dark Mark would be like expecting Ash to enter a training facility without a pokeball. It's part of who he is and an established hallmark of his character.

To not use it would be out of character, which frees him up to make use of all the devastating spells that people claim he would avoid as they're not his normal style.

To say Fiendfyre is disqualified as being a deus-ex-machina is unrealistic. To say it's not really that powerful is equally so -- it ate a pocket dimension for Snape's sake.

To say that Vader has better tactics is just as bad. He's no more used to personally killing his foes than Voldemort. He sends in the Stormtroopers while Voldemort sends in the Deatheaters.

That leaves it to power versus power, and I'm going to say it again...

Mobillity. Versatility. Lethality. Minions. Stealth (invisibility and bedazzlement). Defense (actuall 360 degree shielding against energy and physical attacks). Voldemort has the edge in all of these.

The one area Vader has the advantage is hand-to-hand combat, and at the distance they're starting from there's no way Voldemort is still going to be there by the time Vader closes in.

[ChaosLord29]

[QUOTE]Wookieepedia (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tutaminis) states that all Jedi are expected to master some degree of the Tutaminis skills prior to graduation. It also gives a few examples of how it can be used to catch/deflect lightsabers and seems to place raw blaster deflection in the same 'rare' category of mastery.

I bring this up because it's been claimed that Voldemort's area-effect spells would be countered by Vader's Force Absorb abilities. I say it's not that easy.

You also need to keep in mind that not all spells show themselves as a slow-moving pulse of energy. Some are instant and invisible. It keeps being brought up time and time again that anything Vader can't absorb can be deflected. Some spells have no true point-of-origin.

Well, he can't deflect the floor beneath himself detonating in a lethal explosion. Further, not all spells are slow moving. Many instant effects have already been mentioned pages ago.

I've read the Wookiepedia article previously, and like I already pointed out, there's no canon answer as to whether Vader uses Force Absorb or just blocks the blaster bolts with his guantlet. Saying "Jedi are expected to master some degree of the Tutaminis skills prior to graduation" is like saying it's a general ed requirement. Jedi attempt to learn tutaminis because your Jedi training would not be complete without exploring the limits of your abilities.

You're right about explosive spells (like confrigo, which I already acknowledged in an earlier post), but as for some spells being instantaneous, I'm not convinced. Even spells that seem to be invisible can still be countered by shield spells or counter-curses, which heavily implies they do in fact have a point of origin and a 'bolt' for lack of a better term.


You should also stop calling Voldemort an old man. Remember, this is post reincarnation -- which means he has a brand new, healthy body to make use of and his reaction times are quick enough to out-duel any wizard outside of the Elder Wand.

I actually had not considered that. Voldemort's been reincarnated . . . So I assume that means he's back in his physical prime! Good point there. However, I must still contest that even a wizard is still dealing in the realm of human reaction times, which even padwan Jedi transcend at an early age.


Further, we're starting this fight 1v1. If both characters are to realistically draw upon all of their staple resources, then call in the 501st by all means. They still can't teleport. Deatheaters will be there well before they even pinpoint the combat location. After that, the well-trained muggles would be neutralized with any number of single spells in a heartbeat.

Expecting Voldemort to seriously fight someone without making use of his Dark Mark would be like expecting Ash to enter a training facility without a pokeball. It's part of who he is and an established hallmark of his character.

To not use it would be out of character, which frees him up to make use of all the devastating spells that people claim he would use as they're not his normal style.

Firstly, it would be a lot more complicated than just the death eaters casually wiping out an army of men armed with guns and their armored support (plus air support). Hell, I don't think if Voldemort conquered the wizarding world he would even stand a chance against the muggles. This is all a discussion for another thread though, and I would love to see you start it so we could continue it there :smallbiggrin:

And secondly, it's really not all that unreasonable to assume a 1v1. After all, Voldemort duels Dumbledore, his counterpart in a one on one match. He also engages Harry on several occasions in single combat even when he could bring his Death Eaters to bear against him. The Ash comparison is laughably fallacious. Voldemort can fight just fine all on his own, whereas the whole point of Pokemon is proxy battling.


To say Fiendfyre is disqualified as being a deus-ex-machina is unrealistic. To say it's not really that powerful is equally so -- it ate a pocket dimension for Snape's sake.

That's a misunderstanding, I was referring specifically to the effect that fiendfyre has on the horcruxes, not saying the spell should be disqualified. I'd love to see Voldemort use it, and Vader subsequently counter it with Force Absorb or a simple shield.


To say that Vader has better tactics is just as bad. He's no more used to personally killing his foes than Voldemort. He sends in the Stormtroopers while Voldemort sends in the Deatheaters.

That leaves it to power versus power, and I'm going to say it again...

Mobillity. Versatility. Lethality. Minions. Stealth (invisibility and bedazzlement). Defense (actuall 360 degree shielding against energy and physical attacks). Voldemort has the edge in all of these.

The one area Vader has the advantage is hand-to-hand combat, and at the distance they're starting from there's no way Voldemort is still going to be there by the time Vader closes in.

Vader has a lifetime of experience dueling Jedi and Sith during the Clone Wars and the Jedi Purge. Sure it's more expedient to send in the troops sometimes, but Jedi usually have to be handled by Vader personally. Same thing with Voldemort, he's not above getting his hands dirty, in fact, he seems to prefer it given how often his minions bungle things (again, just like Vader).

I'm not sure where you are drawing this list from, but I will give you Stealth and maybe Mobility since Voldemort can fly (I still think that flight can be countered by judicious use of Force Push and Pull). I don't see why I should give him Versatility when there is a force equivalent for all but the fanciest of spells (teleporting, reversing time), and no reason to give him Lethality when Vader by sheer weight of numbers has killed more opponents, and more of them closer to his own abilities.

****

Edit: Point that was brought up to me by a friend. I previously was willing to assume that Vader can't Force Pull Voldemort's wand for the same reason that most Jedi and Sith don't do that to one another at the start of a duel. However, Vader quite easily pulls Han's blaster out of his hand even though he is in the process of firing it.

My point here is that Voldemort probably has comparable reflexes (and as good a grip on his wand) as Han does that blaster (seeing as Han is one of the fastest shots in the galaxy, pushing the limits of human agility). Voldemort might have a spell that could counter the use of the Force in that manner, but I am not prepared to admit that Voldemort could cast that spell fast enough to counter it.

[hamishspence]

Let's clear something up, Luke can't use Force Absorb at that point in the series, nor can I even think of any EU example where Force Absorb was used against a lightsaber.

I can. Corran Horn's grandfather, Nejaa Halcyon, used it in the flashback scene in I, Jedi.

When stabbed by the Anzati Dark Jedi Nikkos Tyris, he draws the power from the saber, causing it to flicker out, hoists Tyris into the air, crushes him, and hurls him into a building (he explodes as he dies like Palpatine does, badly damaging the building)

What it doesn't do is fix any of the damage the saber did to him. So even if Force Absorb can be used against sabers, that doesn't mean the saber won't kill you.

[ChaosLord29]

I can. Corran Horn's grandfather, Nejaa Halcyon, used it in the flashback scene in I, Jedi.

When stabbed by the Anzati Dark Jedi Nikkos Tyris, he draws the power from the saber, causing it to flicker out, hoists Tyris into the air, crushes him, and hurls him into a building (he explodes as he dies like Palpatine does, badly damaging the building)

What it doesn't do is fix any of the damage the saber did to him. So even if Force Absorb can be used against sabers, that doesn't mean the saber won't kill you.

Well done. Apparently that's also what Satele Shan uses in the Hope promotional video for The Old Republic against Darth Malgus. I figured it was just a concentrated usage of Force Push.

[Xondoure]

Wizards also have a disarming spell. You don't see Voldemort's wand ever leaving his hand.

And no. No EU. Get it out. Send it away. It has no place here. It. Shall not. Pass!

Vader is never seen absorbing anything except maybe Han's Blaster, maybe. That is not sufficient proof of defense for a spell that was only stopped by being in a separate state of existence. And they needed little Deus Ex there seeing as they got out the basilisk fangs a moment later. Fiendfyre thus serves to prove a point about arrogance, and to demonstrate just how very very dangerous magic can be. Fiendfyre comes out that is game over.

So let's go to the movies, and the fact that special effects had not caught up enough to show just how EPIC the movie could have been. That's fine. Except that the special effects have been regularly updated for years (much to the fans chagrin.) And the Prequels show us the upper tier of what jedi can do. But Anakin isn't Vader in capabilities. Vader is stronger in the force but he is much slower and unable to use force lightning. In short, he is broken, which is why the emperor wants Luke in the first place.

So to end the ramblings, yes the films don't have epic level force abilities by any means, and I like it that way. Low magic, with magic still being able to sweep away vastly superior tech is what gave the force such gravitas. It was mystic, and mysterious, and just enough of an edge to put them beyond normal people. Which is awesome, and really helps set the tone of the original trilogy. Vader's a badass not because of his force powers, but because he's a follower of a now dead practice with no practical use in the field of tactics and modern warfare, but that's okay because he belongs to a different game. No where is this clearer than when Luke leaves the rebellion to face his father. This is the battle that determines the fate of all those lives below, but it was never about them. It was about the forces of will behind a few individuals who due to natural ability can pull all the strings.

That's awesome. But in terms of raw power it doesn't hold a candle to a universe where the rules are whatever powers the writer cares to think of with seven books of growth. Magic is not really given hard limits, and neither is the force. So we can't assume an upward limit for either of them theoretically. However what we see in action is not on the same scale. Physical enhancement to the point of being able to take down a bunch of mooks who insist on using the wrong tools for the job sure. (But switch to the right tools and suddenly Jedi aren't unbeatable, see Jango Fett.) Throwing around a few natural energy attacks that are far weaker than those blasters, but have an advantage in being a steady stream that needs to be continuously deflected by the opponent. And some rudimentary telekinetics. (Objects are either pulled, pushed, lifted, or very carefully made do slightly more complex tasks. Anything of any reasonable power or finesse takes a lot of concentration.)

Magic meanwhile masters basic tele kinetics at age eleven, and is able to toss staircases around centuries after the spell was cast when they really get going. Skips right past lightning and into instant death, gives you greater mobility meaning hand to hand expertise is negated. Allows you to attack people directly on the mental field. Capable of transforming any object not powerfully enchanted into any other object, or simply vanishing it into limbo. Charms any object to take on any set of characteristics you can imagine, and we haven't even gotten to the craziness that is potions.

Vader's abilities beyond his physical ones all have direct spell counterparts, and wizards are proven counter spellers in this setting. (Snape vs. Harry as an obvious example.) Voldemort meanwhile can hit Vader with a dozen things he has never seen before and would have no idea how to counter. (Throws a disarming curse, Vader tries to deflect it with his lightsaber. As he's calling it back through one AK. Direct hit is death and armor won't save you any more than clothes will. Why do you think no one bothers to go around wearing great hulking pieces of enchanted armor in Harry Potter? Because it's as impractical and ridiculous as plate mail in modern warfare.)

TL;DR the force was never shown to be something that could go toe to toe with higher powered forces of magic. Just because it's the end all be all in it's own universe doesn't mean it isn't limited to that universe's power scale. And the EU is horribly bloated as if a billion writers cried out their awsum ideas to make the world so much more EPIC and were suddenly silenced by the heavy hand of movie canon.

[ChaosLord29]

Wizards also have a disarming spell. You don't see Voldemort's wand ever leaving his hand.

And no. No EU. Get it out. Send it away. It has no place here. It. Shall not. Pass!

Vader is never seen absorbing anything except maybe Han's Blaster, maybe. That is not sufficient proof of defense for a spell that was only stopped by being in a separate state of existence. And they needed little Deus Ex there seeing as they got out the basilisk fangs a moment later. Fiendfyre thus serves to prove a point about arrogance, and to demonstrate just how very very dangerous magic can be. Fiendfyre comes out that is game over.

So let's go to the movies, and the fact that special effects had not caught up enough to show just how EPIC the movie could have been. That's fine. Except that the special effects have been regularly updated for years (much to the fans chagrin.) And the Prequels show us the upper tier of what jedi can do. But Anakin isn't Vader in capabilities. Vader is stronger in the force but he is much slower and unable to use force lightning. In short, he is broken, which is why the emperor wants Luke in the first place.

So to end the ramblings, yes the films don't have epic level force abilities by any means, and I like it that way. Low magic, with magic still being able to sweep away vastly superior tech is what gave the force such gravitas. It was mystic, and mysterious, and just enough of an edge to put them beyond normal people. Which is awesome, and really helps set the tone of the original trilogy. Vader's a badass not because of his force powers, but because he's a follower of a now dead practice with no practical use in the field of tactics and modern warfare, but that's okay because he belongs to a different game. No where is this clearer than when Luke leaves the rebellion to face his father. This is the battle that determines the fate of all those lives below, but it was never about them. It was about the forces of will behind a few individuals who due to natural ability can pull all the strings.

That's awesome. But in terms of raw power it doesn't hold a candle to a universe where the rules are whatever powers the writer cares to think of with seven books of growth. Magic is not really given hard limits, and neither is the force. So we can't assume an upward limit for either of them theoretically. However what we see in action is not on the same scale. Physical enhancement to the point of being able to take down a bunch of mooks who insist on using the wrong tools for the job sure. (But switch to the right tools and suddenly Jedi aren't unbeatable, see Jango Fett.) Throwing around a few natural energy attacks that are far weaker than those blasters, but have an advantage in being a steady stream that needs to be continuously deflected by the opponent. And some rudimentary telekinetics. (Objects are either pulled, pushed, lifted, or very carefully made do slightly more complex tasks. Anything of any reasonable power or finesse takes a lot of concentration.)

Magic meanwhile masters basic tele kinetics at age eleven, and is able to toss staircases around centuries after the spell was cast when they really get going. Skips right past lightning and into instant death, gives you greater mobility meaning hand to hand expertise is negated. Allows you to attack people directly on the mental field. Capable of transforming any object not powerfully enchanted into any other object, or simply vanishing it into limbo. Charms any object to take on any set of characteristics you can imagine, and we haven't even gotten to the craziness that is potions.

Vader's abilities beyond his physical ones all have direct spell counterparts, and wizards are proven counter spellers in this setting. (Snape vs. Harry as an obvious example.) Voldemort meanwhile can hit Vader with a dozen things he has never seen before and would have no idea how to counter. (Throws a disarming curse, Vader tries to deflect it with his lightsaber. As he's calling it back through one AK. Direct hit is death and armor won't save you any more than clothes will. Why do you think no one bothers to go around wearing great hulking pieces of enchanted armor in Harry Potter? Because it's as impractical and ridiculous as plate mail in modern warfare.)

TL;DR the force was never shown to be something that could go toe to toe with higher powered forces of magic. Just because it's the end all be all in it's own universe doesn't mean it isn't limited to that universe's power scale. And the EU is horribly bloated as if a billion writers cried out their awsum ideas to make the world so much more EPIC and were suddenly silenced by the heavy hand of movie canon.

There's some fairly well reasoned argument in there, and I'm prepared to agree with most of what you said.

One exception. The EU shows us exactly what the upper limits of the Force are. You want to disregard it, and so do I, on the grounds that there's some really bizarre, questionably canon stuff that happens in the EU. That's fine, I mean, I think a fight between EU Vader vs regular Vader would be a whole different thing. But on the question of whether the Force is comparable to magic in terms of raw power and flexibility, it gives us a definite answer. Yes.

Spells can accomplish things that the Force can't. Teleportation, Transmutation and Time Manipulation all readily come to mind. But it's a whole different thing entirely to say that a magic is on the whole more powerful than the Force. What about Revan manipulating whole planets to his will? What about Bastila turning the tides of space battles with her meditation? What about Force Storms capable of consuming starships?

The reason Wizards don't engage in close quarters combat? They're not fighters, warriors or soldiers. To be a wizard is to be a scholar of magic first, and anything else second. Jedi and Sith are warriors and agents of the Force first.

*****

It's not a spell that Vader is using to disarm Voldemort. It's an application of raw physical force that causes him to lose his grasp in his wand, and subsequently his ability to use magic. Even if he had the foresight, and wherewithal to cast Protego ahead of time, I'm not convinced that it would stop Vader from disarming him, because it seems to me that protego does not combat telekinetic attacks. Finite might work, but it's a reactionary spell, you can't use it until your opponent is already casting their own spell, so while it might be possible to counter another wizard, Vader doesn't have to say a word or flick a wand to do it (conjure the magic words in his mind for silent casting). I'm not convinced that Voldemort has the reflexes or ability to cast a spell faster than Vader can use so simple a Force Technique.

[hamishspence]

Some techniques of the Sith are referred to as "spells" by their practitioners, and the line between psychic power and magic gets especially blurry in these cases, where there are gestures, it's described as "arcane" and not every Sith has a talent for it.

Darth Zannah in the Bane books was an example of a Sith sorceress.

Teleportation first appears with the Aing-Tii monks in Timothy Zahn's Vision of the Future. They're described as not seeing the Force as "light and dark" but as a "full colour rainbow".

Time manipulation seems rarer- "flow-walking" allows someone to go back in time and witness events- but I think only Jacen, who went dark, is shown to actually interfere in some way.

In the Fate of the Jedi series, we find:
in the last book, that this manipulation was what freed the Big Bad in the series from her prison- Abeloth- and that it's happened before.

[GeekGirl]

Greetings all, As I am not a huge Harry Potter fan, I don't have much to add to the argument. I just have one question. I see people throwing Avada Kedavra around a lot as a pretty instant trump card to anything. It's been said (here) it can "kill" Vader's suit or even his saber. My question, do the books say it can stop machines from working, or break electronics? I did a small amount of research but couldn't find anything.

[hamishspence]

We saw references to a backfiring Avada-Kedavra blowing most of Harry's house apart in the description of what happened on the night Voldemort tried to kill him , in book 1- we see the actual damage in book 7.

[ChaosLord29]

Greetings all, As I am not a huge Harry Potter fan, I don't have much to add to the argument. I just have one question. I see people throwing Avada Kedavra around a lot as a pretty instant trump card to anything. It's been said (here) it can "kill" Vader's suit or even his saber. My question, do the books say it can stop machines from working, or break electronics? I did a small amount of research but couldn't find anything.

Nope, it doesn't even have the strength to blow apart a gravestone. Pretty much any inanimate object a sufficient size or density seems to provide cover from the vast majority spells.

Avada Kedavara kills living things, not even animated non-living things. It doesn't stop the Centaur statue that Dumbledore animates at the Ministry of Magic, it doesn't affect Inferi (zombies). There's a separate enchantment for shutting of muggle technology, and there's no clear spell for using it in combat.

[hamishspence]

There is a damaging component to Avada-Kedavra though- the hits on the statues blew bits off them- the head, in one case.

It leaves no marks on a living victim, but it seems to be capable of damaging unliving material.

[Traab]

You also need to keep in mind that not all spells show themselves as a slow-moving pulse of energy. Some are instant and invisible. It keeps being brought up time and time again that anything Vader can't absorb can be deflected. Some spells have no true point-of-origin.

Well, he can't deflect the floor beneath himself detonating in a lethal explosion. Further, not all spells are slow moving. Many instant effects have already been mentioned pages ago.

You are very correct in this part, but my main bone of contention with this argument is, "How likely is it that voldemort will use a massive area of effect type spell that vader cant deflect/absorb/dodge before vader runs up and cuts voldemorts freaking head off?"

That just becomes even more likely of a possibility with a reborn vader who is back in his physical prime. Jedi move way too fast for an unsuspecting voldemort to be able to stop in time. I still say the most likely result unless they start at opposite ends of a quidditch pitch, are a near copy of jango fetts death. Voldemort will cast a spell, be surprised by it being deflected/absorbed/dodged, see vader is coming closer at a VERY rapid pace, and likely get desperate to stop him, which will make it far harder for him to come up with the aoe effect spells in time. spell spell spell, hes dead jim. The only way this wouldnt be the most likely result is if voldemort has advance warning and time to figure out vaders weaknesses. WE know that vader could be nailed by blowing up the ground around him, or transfiguring his face into a tortise, or whatever, voldemort doesnt know he needs to do anything different from his normal style until its too late.

[hamishspence]

How about Snape's little nonverbal spell- Levicorpus?

We know other Death Eaters know it- since we see them use it on Muggles near the start of book 4.

Would it be that much of a stretch for Voldemort to know it?

[Traab]

How about Snape's little nonverbal spell- Levicorpus?

We know other Death Eaters know it- since we see them use it on Muggles near the start of book 4.

Would it be that much of a stretch for Voldemort to know it?

Not a stretch at all. Would it stop vader from righting himself with the force? Thats honestly one of the bigger questions. How hard would it be for vader to counter these movement impairing effects, should they actually hit him? I know jedi can use the force to improve their strength and speed, so does that mean an immobulous or petrificus totalis, or impedimentia would be ineffective?

[Xondoure]

Not a stretch at all. Would it stop vader from righting himself with the force? Thats honestly one of the bigger questions. How hard would it be for vader to counter these movement impairing effects, should they actually hit him? I know jedi can use the force to improve their strength and speed, so does that mean an immobulous or petrificus totalis, or impedimentia would be ineffective?

I say they would work just as long as it took Vader to right himself. In a duel, that's more than enough time.

[ChaosLord29]

I say they would work just as long as it took Vader to right himself. In a duel, that's more than enough time.

I'm inclined to disagree. Levicorpus is one of those spells that doesn't seem to have a 'bolt' or physical spell that is launched at the enemy, but considering all it really does is lift the opponent up by their ankles, Vader could easily right himself in midair with a judicious use of the Force (picturing a midair somersault here powered by the Force and Vader's momentum). Plus, there's nothing to stop him being able to deflect other spells in the mean time.

Voldemort's best chance I think is to conjure or transmute himself some snakey underlings to surround Vader before the Dark Lord of the Sith can jump into melee range. From there, he needs to fly into the air and start nuking (metaphorically) the area.

Vader's best case scenario, his superior reflexes and Force fueled agility allow him to lunge at Voldemort in the blink of an eye to deliver a killing blow. Assuming the Dark Lord is able to dodge or shield himself, he then attempts to fly or summon serpents, only to have Vader Force Pull his wand out of his hand.

Actually, I rather like that. Voldemort attempts to fly or summon serpents (both of which require at least the momentary use of his wand) at which point Vader Force Pulls it from his hand and into his own. Since Voldemort is already casting or has just finished casting another spell, he can't conjure a shield or counter Vader's use of the Force fast enough to resist. He can then mop up the Snakes at his leisure and watch as Voldemort now plummets to the earth and his inevitable demise either upon landing or at the Sith Lord's blade.

"All too easy."

[Traab]

The problem with figuring out who would win, is dealing with mutual mystery. Neither one has any idea what the other is capable of. Neither one knows what weaknesses their opponent may have, or what would work on them.

Vader has an initial advantage, in that he is faster than voldemort, and he doesnt require his lightsaber to be deadly. Voldemort has the advantage of a far greater spread of skills he can apply to the fight, but he is reliant upon his wand. He may not be totally crippled without it, but certainly far more than vader would be without his lightsaber.

Personalities. Vader is a battle hardened veteran. A man who has fought in wars, fought in duels, fought in ambushes on both sides. If there is one thing vader will be good at, its making his opponent dead, no matter what surprises may pop up. So in a fight with an unknown opponent with a myriad of unknown skills, vader has the ability to quickly adapt and compensate, as well as sniff out potential weaknesses in his enemy.

Voldemort is mainly a lead from behind general. He is immensely powerful, but much like palpatine, rarely has had to put his true skills to use, or had to fight for his life. He doesnt tend to deal well with shocks, and is so convinced of his total superiority, that someone surviving his assault throws him for a bit of a loop. His main experiences in combat are fighting people that are too terrified to fight back, his only real challenges have been dumbledoore and harry potter, and truthfully, only dumbledoore has had the skill to face him. Potter is pure plot armor. That leads me to think that facing vader would leave him rattled. Seeing someone fast, with clear killing intent, that his initial attacks, (and there is nothing to suggest that his first attacks would be anything but blaster bolt style spells) are totally ineffective against would likely unnerve him.


Abilities. Vader his greatly boosted strength and speed, well above human standard. He has a light saber capable of cutting through pretty much anything, and deflecting pretty much anything. Not only that, but he has the force, and can do a number of invisible attacks and defenses with them. Everything from boosting his strength and speed, to telekinesis, to (apparently) the ability to absorb energy attacks.

Voldemort has hundreds of spells, perhaps more, each with a unique type of damage it could cause. Everything from reversing vaders knees, to making him wish for the cool embrace of merely lava. he is capable of flight without a broom, and MIGHT be able to apparate in mid combat, at least with proper preparation. By which I mean he could use it as a taunting tool, he isnt fighting back, just letting vader flail around while he apparates all over the arena laughing. I dont think it would work if he was put under pressure of imminent death though. His defenses may be a bit more questionable though. It may take a fairly high end shield to resist a lightsaber strike, and one of the most well known tactics in light saber battles is deflecting attacks right back at the caster.



Weaknesses. Vader has a limited offensive base to work with. At range he is reduced to deflecting spells back at voldy, or using the force in telekinetic attacks like throwing objects, trying to grab voldemort, or force choking.

Voldemort. He has few effective defenses other than "fly away" and even that isnt guaranteed due to force jumping. Many of his most common spells are visible bolt types that are easy to deflect or dodge, meaning until he gets esoteric, his attacks will be mainly ineffectual. His arrogance will also make him more likely to screw up by refusing to admit that this strange muggle could kill him

[ChaosLord29]

I suppose I was being needlessly facetious above with the "All too easy." bit.

I tend to agree with Traab's assessment though. Especially where the combat experience is weighed.


Vader is a battle hardened veteran. A man who has fought in wars, fought in duels, fought in ambushes on both sides.

...

[Voldemort's] main experiences in combat are fighting people that are too terrified to fight back, his only real challenges have been dumbledoore and harry potter, and truthfully, only dumbledoore has had the skill to face him. Potter is pure plot armor.

Vader has had to fight for his life since he before he began his Jedi training. Vader has faced down assassins, Sith Lords, alien monsters, Jedi Knights and Masters, and some of the best gunmen in the Galaxy, all without the plethora of flashy spells Voldemort has at his disposal.

Voldemort on the other hand didn't even start killing till his late teens, and even then he hasn't faced a truly challenging opponent save Dumbledore himself. It's a question of, how seriously is Voldemort likely to take any opponent not a wizard and not Dumbledore, and how well is he likely to deal with an foe engaging in a kind of combat he has no experience with?

[Xondoure]

There are plenty of spells to send Vader crashing back if he tries to jump at Voldemort (expelliarmus and stupefy have shown that effect, more basic telekinetics would also work.)

[ChaosLord29]

There are plenty of spells to send Vader crashing back if he tries to jump at Voldemort (expelliarmus and stupefy have shown that effect, more basic telekinetics would also work.)

I'm sure, but the greater point is that Voldemort couldn't cast one of those spells and simultaneously block another Force ability, even if its as simple as knocking the wand from his hand.

Vader's biggest weaknesses are that he can't turn stones into snakes or fly of his own volition. He does however have an effective means of countering either of those in his opponent.

Voldemort's biggest weaknesses are his lack of actual combat experience, his slower reaction times, his inability to multitask, and finally (perhaps most pertinently) the fact that he is as good as dead without his wand. Those are all hard and fast cases.

He can't magically conjure a greater breadth of experience fighting foes like Vader. We've never even heard of a spell to amp up reflexes and agility. He can't cast more than one spell at a time and without his wand there's only one or two magical abilities he retains (Not Occlumency or Legilimens).

[Xondoure]

And where exactly is this amazing display of multitasking? Or for that matter enough finesse to pull a wand away? (You don't exactly have as firm a grip on a blaster) Plus you have to catch Voldemort truly by surprise, which isn't gonna happen against a legilimens.

[Forum Explorer]

And where exactly is this amazing display of multitasking? Or for that matter enough finesse to pull a wand away? (You don't exactly have as firm a grip on a blaster) Plus you have to catch Voldemort truly by surprise, which isn't gonna happen against a legilimens.

I don't know what you are basing this sentence on. A wand is a stick and about as easy to hold onto as a stick. A blaster is like a gun. It has a handle with grips and your fingers on a trigger. You should have a much better grip on a blaster then a wand.

[ChaosLord29]

And where exactly is this amazing display of multitasking? Or for that matter enough finesse to pull a wand away? (You don't exactly have as firm a grip on a blaster) Plus you have to catch Voldemort truly by surprise, which isn't gonna happen against a legilimens.

Xonodoure, I don't know what gives you the idea that you don't hold onto a blaster at least as hard as you hold onto a wand. If it's anything like holding onto a sword or a gun (there's that whole wand as an extension of the arm mentality, plus certain spells seem to have a recoil), you need a relaxed but firm grip on the weapon (just like a lightsaber for that matter).

Vader pulls the blaster out of Han's hand without even trying. Better, he does it while Han is using the blaster to shoot at him (literally 'under the gun' pressure).

To answer your 1st and 3rd questions, a Jedi is trained to utilize various Force Techniques simultaneously while engaged in lightsaber combat, and making his mind into an Impenetrable Fortress (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thought_shield). In short, Jedi are always using multiple Force Techniques to enhance their strength, agility and speed in addition to any active techniques they might use like Force Push or Throw, or in this case Pull (one of the most basic techniques of all). If you want a specific example, you've got Vader in the Empire Strikes back while dueling Luke, or Anakin dueling Obi-wan where he seamlessly integrates both Force Push and Force Choke into the combat.

So, A) Jedi are trained to shield their minds in combat against other Force Users (Or wizards in this case), and B) I'd say in the middle of while Voldemort is casting another spell counts as surprise.

[Fragenstein]

I don't know what you are basing this sentence on. A wand is a stick and about as easy to hold onto as a stick. A blaster is like a gun. It has a handle with grips and your fingers on a trigger. You should have a much better grip on a blaster then a wand.

Maybe, but if it were that easy to pull a wand from Voldemort's hand then how did he ever climb to power in the first place? Any jerk could have used Accio to disarm him and that'd be it.

I'm also trying to understand where people think Voldemort lacks combat experience. He was the single most feared wizard of all time -- to the point where only one person in existance was even brave enough to speak his name.

And that was only because Dumbledore had the Elder Wand and knew how powerful it was.

Voldemort dominated every dark wizard alive. They either joined him, died, were mind controlled into doing his bidding or went into hiding. His rise to power was marked by the slaughter of all those who oppposed him, which included people specifically trained to take down wizards just like him.

Fate itself was even on his side, marking him as being unstoppable outside of the choosen one.

He spent years consorting with the lowest elements of the wizarding world, moving through and learning from an underbelly that even the Ministry of Magic couldn't control. He recruited monsters so horrid that their entire races had been forced into exile.

We're not talking about someone with a really good P.R. firm, here. We're talking about someone who's power and brutality was unrivaled. Even his invisible death squad was afraid of him.

None of this was done by luck. Little of it was even done with charisma after he truly went around the bend and starting splitting off pieces of his soul. It was done because any wizard, no matter how accomplished or well armed, died if they looked at Voldemort the wrong way.

The Deatheaters themselves were terrifying in their own lethality, and Voldemort kept them in line because even they were afraid of his wrath.

Don't tell me Voldemort lacked combat experience. You don't make an entire realm of secret demi-gods crap their own pants by walking around with spooky background music.

[Traab]

Maybe, but if it were that easy to pull a wand from Voldemort's hand then how did he ever climb to power in the first place? Any jerk could have used Accio to disarm him and that'd be it.

I'm also trying to understand where people think Voldemort lacks combat experience. He was the single most feared wizard of all time -- to the point where only one person in existance was even brave enough to speak his name.

And that was only because Dumbledore had the Elder Wand and knew how powerful it was.

Voldemort dominated every dark wizard alive. They either joined him, died, were mind controlled into doing his bidding or went into hiding. His rise to power was marked by the slaughter of all those who oppposed him, which included people specifically trained to take down wizards just like him.

Fate itself was even on his side, marking him as being unstoppable outside of the choosen one.

He spent years consorting with the lowest elements of the wizarding world, moving through and learning from an underbelly that even the Ministry of Magic couldn't control. He recruited monsters so horrid that their entire races had been forced into exile.

We're not talking about someone with a really good P.R. firm, here. We're talking about someone who's power and brutality was unrivaled. Even his invisible death squad was afraid of him.

None of this was done by luck. Little of it was even done with charisma after he truly went around the bend and starting splitting off pieces of his soul. It was done because any wizard, no matter how accomplished or well armed, died if they looked at Voldemort the wrong way.

The Deatheaters themselves were terrifying in their own lethality, and Voldemort kept them in line because even they were afraid of his wrath.

Don't tell me Voldemort lacked combat experience. You don't make an entire realm of secret demi-gods crap their own pants by walking around with spooky background music.

1) Accio can be shielded against. So can expelliarmus.

2) He is a lead from behind general, he gives orders and his death eaters rush out to follow them, and most of his "experience" in combat was attacking isolated homes with an overwhelming force of numbers. He faced dumbledoore, once or twice, its never exactly clear how often they fought in his first rise, but other than that he has never faced a truly difficult challenger. Even harry wasnt that great, he only won due to plot armor, not some great skill. That being said, the way harry won is a factor. Something surprising would pop up, flummox voldemort as he has never seen that before, and harry would escape. When vader pulls out an unexpected trick, he wont be using that chance to flee, he will be using that surprise to cut voldemort in half.

3) Oh I wont deny that he had great raw power, and even the charisma early on to gather followers, but for the most part, the "dark wizards" he dominated were nothing more than closeted members of the wizarding KKK griping and moaning amongst themselves about how much the world was changing and doing their best to stop it from happening through legal means. Voldemort was the one that taught them to kill. Its not like he walked into the middle of the guild of assassins, beat up everyone, then declared himself king.

As for killing everyone, please do keep in mind that the standard death eater tactic is to show up with numbers, spam unforgiveables on a group of muggles or a single muggleborn and their family like they are going out of style, then declare victory. He wasnt the type to get into pitched battles where he was outnumbered, or offer to fight duels at high noon in diagon alley. He had an impressive kill total because he was ambushing people he had outnumbered 4 to 1 and using spells that most people arent capable of blocking.

4) Plot armor isnt a skill with any relevance to this duel.

5) He made allies with werewolves. Downtrodden creatures so hen pecked and wrapped around with legislation, and only one step away from being wiped out by order of the wizengamot. We arent talking an ancient race of malevolent beings capable of wiping out all life on earth. Dementors? yeah, that was a dangerous "alliance" or whatever you want to call his hold on them. Giants? Meh, there is a reason they were going extinct. Dangerous in random attacks, but frightfully stupid and not exactly stealthy.

6) His own death squad was scared because he had them enslaved with his dark mark and would routinely torture them at will. I covered already why his kill total was so high, and thats why his fear level in the populace was so high.

7) He didnt really start splitting his soul, other than the diary, until later, AFTER he had gathered his following. His "followers" were enslaved, im pretty sure they simply couldnt act directly against him. Yes he is stronger than the other wizards around him, but that only means that it would be stupid to try to fight him one on one.

He was a terrorist, not the general of an army. He would strike at random in the dead of the night, torture and kill everyone at the house he picked, then leave before aurors could show up. THAT was the source of his terror. That at any time there could be a knock on your door, and you would open it to see voldemort and 6 of his followers standing there ready to torture rape and kill you and your entire family. But lets face it, its easy to inspire terror, and easy to wipe out families, when you are ambushing them with superior numbers. It doesnt make you some sort of demi god, and the refusal to speak his made up name was an eye rollingly dumb plot device by rowling to make voldemort seem more threatening than he was. It doesnt help that this race of "demi gods" were also frightfully stupid sheep that believed everything they were told.

[Fragenstein]

I don't think so. Here are a few select quotes:

Rowling described Voldemort as "the most evil wizard for hundreds and hundreds of years". She elaborated that he is a "raging psychopath, devoid of the normal human responses to other people's suffering", and whose only ambition in life is to become all-powerful and immortal. He is also a sadist who derives amusement from inflicting pain on others without any remorse and murders people just for fun, especially Muggles, and does not recognise the worth and humanity of anybody except himself.

You don't earn the "Most Evil Wizard" title by sitting back and letting others do your dirty work for you. Deatheaters were used extensively, but Voldemort also "murdered for fun". Muggles were his favorite targets, yes, but he also dealt with his share of Aurors.

In a flashback in the sixth novel, Voldemort boasts to Dumbledore during a job interview that he has "pushed the boundaries of magic farther than they had ever before". Dumbledore states that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is more extensive than any wizard alive and that even Dumbledore's most powerful protective spells and charms would not likely be sufficient if Voldemort returned to full power. Dumbledore also said that Voldemort was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen. Although Voldemort remains highly accomplished and prodigious in skill, he is enormously lacking and highly inept in the most powerful magic, love.

And I believe that's what we're working with here: a Voldemort having been returned to full power. A wrecking machine. A wizard capable of destroying everything in his path and the willingness to do it himself.

We didn't see the reign of terror he inflicted, but we certainly saw the results. He would have been ruling the world if not for the schmaltz of Love.

Oh, and the prophecy wasn't 'plot armor'. It was a direct admission of his strength. He was unstoppable because of his power. Harry's only edge was that Voldemort had accidentally created a unique magic bond with the boy that operated as a backdoor to the Dark Lord's otherwise overwhelming nature.

[Traab]

I don't think so. Here are a few select quotes:

Rowling described Voldemort as "the most evil wizard for hundreds and hundreds of years". She elaborated that he is a "raging psychopath, devoid of the normal human responses to other people's suffering", and whose only ambition in life is to become all-powerful and immortal. He is also a sadist who derives amusement from inflicting pain on others without any remorse and murders people just for fun, especially Muggles, and does not recognise the worth and humanity of anybody except himself.

You don't earn the "Most Evil Wizard" title by sitting back and letting others do your dirty work for you. Deatheaters were used extensively, but Voldemort also "murdered for fun". Muggles were his favorite targets, yes, but he also dealt with his share of Aurors.

In a flashback in the sixth novel, Voldemort boasts to Dumbledore during a job interview that he has "pushed the boundaries of magic farther than they had ever before". Dumbledore states that Voldemort's knowledge of magic is more extensive than any wizard alive and that even Dumbledore's most powerful protective spells and charms would not likely be sufficient if Voldemort returned to full power. Dumbledore also said that Voldemort was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen. Although Voldemort remains highly accomplished and prodigious in skill, he is enormously lacking and highly inept in the most powerful magic, love.

And I believe that's what we're working with here: a Voldemort having been returned to full power. A wrecking machine. A wizard capable of destroying everything in his path and the willingness to do it himself.

We didn't see the reign of terror he inflicted, but we certainly saw the results. He would have been ruling the world if not for the schmaltz of Love.

Oh, and the prophecy wasn't 'plot armor'. It was a direct admission of his strength. He was unstoppable because of his power. Harry's only edge was that Voldemort had accidentally created a unique magic bond with the boy that operated as a backdoor to the Dark Lord's otherwise overwhelming nature.

Being "most evil" doesnt mean being the greatest dark lord, it means he had even fewer limits on how low he would go to attain what he wanted. Im also not denying that voldemort did go out with his troops for fun from time to time. Im just saying that in general he gave out orders, they carried them out. And yes he murdered for fun. That isnt the same thing as actually FIGHTING. He had people so scared that when he DID show up, they were too busy trembling to pick up a wand and defend themselves. I know, it wouldnt have done much good, but its actually a solid point that was made in several of the various fanfictions I read. If every time voldemort and his deathe aters had shown up at someones door they had fought back instead of cowering and trying to escape, while voldemort would have been fine, his death eaters would have started taking losses. You cant be much of an effective dark lord when all your followers are dead.

He pushed the boundaries, yadda yadda, by having absolutely no morals or scruples. Think of it like nazi scientists and doctors doing inhumane medical experiments on the jews. They learned things by committing acts no sane individual would ever have contemplated.

And yes, the prophecy was entirely plot armor. Its main purpose was to explain why dumbledoore couldnt lead a raid on tom riddle with the auror forces and crush him like a bug. He could BARELY hold off dumbledoore. Add in a few moody level aurors and the snake would have gone down. But that wouldnt have given us a harry potter story, so rowling came up with an excuse as to why noone ever tried to stop voldemort themselves. The only "backdoor" harry had was having defeated draco before voldemort could take ownership of the elder wand from him. Literally anyone could have won that final battle had they done that instead of harry. Had hermione shot harry in the face and killed him, voldemort would have been just as vulnerable to permanent death when hermione overpowered his curse through her mastery over the elder wand.

[Fragenstein]

He could BARELY hold off dumbledoore.

That's right. He could barely hold off one of the most brilliant wizards of all time who also happened to be using a wand crafted by Death himself.

You can fall back on cliches and quote 'plot armor' all you want, but Voldemort demonstrates front-line effectiveness in the books which you're not recognizing.

And please don't make references to fan-fictions. We're dealing with source material here. If Rowling's own descriptions of Voldemort's competency aren't enough to convince you he was more than just an armchair general, then I think we've reached a dead end.

[Xondoure]

Yeah this Voldemort as an old scholar thing has me boggled. If nothing else James Potter was no slouch and he went down in seconds. Yes that was simple use of AK but it proves a point. He only ever tortures his victim when he knows there is no chance they could pose a threat to him. Such as Lily Potter who didn't try to fight back. (though that was partly because he would have let Snape "keep her" had she not refused to move. Which in an odd way makes Snape's love for Lily the only reason Lily's love for Harry even mattered.)

Or let's look at his servants such as Bellatrix Lestrange who was fighting what? Three or four members of the order at once and holding her own? Do you honestly think she'd last a second against the dark lord? If it were as easy as throwing a rock in the way of the killing curse it would happen more often. Honestly the way the spell was first described it was like someone flicked a bright green light switch on and off and whatever the wand was pointing at died. Yes, it got scaled back. But my point is the only defense Vader has against it is his lightsaber, because AK may look it but it's really not an energy attack in the sense that it could be absorbed or deflected. So either of them lose their weapon this fight is over. Trouble is using a charm to disarm someone's wand is child's play which would never be used by any reasonable wizard in a real fight. And that forces the question of why? Because as you so aptly pointed out a wizard without his wand is a sitting duck. The only reasonable conclusion is that there are numerous ways to counter any attempts to disarm them, and any wizard that's not a complete lout will be prepared enough to counter it.

But let's look at Dumbledore. Who he fought against when Dumbledore had the elder wand and Voldemort would have won had circumstances not worked against him. To be clear this is the same Dumbledore that defeated Grindlewald who's basically the dark wizard equivalent of Hitler when Grindlewald had that same wand that until that point could not be beaten. Except this Dumbledore has had a few decades to really perfect his technique.

Now Harry. He always expects to win against Harry. Every time they meet he thinks he's found some new way to get around the Deus Ex Machina of love. Which means he's just fighting some average teenage wizard and has nothing to fear. Vader exudes power. And he's a complete unknown. A more cautious Dark Lord I think is to be expected.

So if Vader opens with a force leap (which we never saw him use even when it would be to his advantage I might add) Voldemort throws him back as far as he can. Next time Vader get's up Voldemort will make sure not to give him the same opportunity. Probably by flying. A surprise force leap is not going to cut it. How is jumping high impressive enough to catch him off guard when wizards are so often in the air? Telekinetics are counter able (with protego I might add, or more permanently, that repellant charm molly weasley used on the doors to keep the twin's extendable ears out. Actually... I wonder if that would block a lightsaber? Probably not or it would have been used on the horcruxes to make them basilisk proof.) Which maybe leaves direct control against Voldemort himself but again, force crush has a dark magic equivalent so Voldemort would probably be able to counter it, and there's literally a spell just for clearing your throat. If he doesn't just choose to apparate away.

tl;dr: Voldemort's very very good, and has ways of keeping the fight at a range. Where he will win. Also, Vader loses his lightsaber he's dead too.

[Fragenstein]

... let's look at his servants such as Bellatrix Lestrange...

Exactly. His lackeys alone were monsters and even they cowered before Voldemort. Dark Mark persuasion or not, the Deatheaters would have rebelled and took over long ago if he wasn't able to knock them back into line just by being a badass.

And they seem determined to nullify Avada Kedavra. So let's give them that one. Why not? It won't hurt to surrender one spell, seeing as how Voldemort has a good dozen or two other ones that kill just as well. It's not even always his first choice when dispatching people. Snape was killed with a single swipe of Sectumsempra.

Granted, that was likely for the irony of it all, but still...

[ChaosLord29]

Exactly. His lackeys alone were monsters and even they cowered before Voldemort. Dark Mark persuasion or not, the Deatheaters would have rebelled and took over long ago if he wasn't able to knock them back into line just by being a badass.

And they seem determined to nullify Avada Kedavra. So let's give them that one. Why not? It won't hurt to surrender one spell, seeing as how Voldemort has a good dozen or two other ones that kill just as well. It's not even always his first choice when dispatching people. Snape was killed with a single swipe of Sectumsempra.

Granted, that was likely for the irony of it all, but still...

Glad to see some excellent discussion in my absence, and I'm prepared to admit that perhaps I wasn't giving Voldemort due credit where it comes to what he went through to conquer the wizarding world.

However, I still think that pales in comparison to the Vader. Voldemort is an experienced duelist, yes. Against other wizards. Now, the wizarding world of Harry Potter (not the amusement park XD) is hardly the 'realm of secret demi-gods' you've described. Most wizards are not duelists, most wizards are not Aurors, most wizards are simply shop-keepers, tradesman, researchers, and office workers who happen to be able to teleport to work, make the dishes do themselves, and follow a sport that involves flying.

Now I'm willing to bet that Voldemort has killed his fair share of people. I'm betting that the number of people who really put up a fight however, numbers less a couple dozen. Voldemort rules through fear, and yes he uses that same fear to keep his own personal death squad in line, but the real point is how many times has Voldemort been in a fight that truly tested his abilities and made him fear for his life? I think 2 or 3 times is being generous there.

I'm not doubting Voldemort's power (the same way you're not doubting Vader's in this) but his combat experience (even in cases like Dumbledore) boils down to other wizards, most of whom are not trained combatants themselves. Sure he's killed aurors, but there's only maybe a couple dozen of them in the whole Ministry, and they can't all be Kingsley Shacklebolt. Sure he fought Dumbledore, but Dumbledore has no more experience with combat than Voldemort himself (earned through fighting Grindelwald). The world of wizards just doesn't compare to the galaxy far far away where it comes to war and battles, and Voldemort's conquering of it doesn't compare to the combined experience of the Clone Wars, The Jedi Purge and the Galactic Civil War combined.

****

If you're willing to give us AK, then you must also admit that any spell with a 'bolt' component can also be deflected.

Snape was killed by the Snake.

The reason other wizards don't accio other wizard's wands out of their hands is because they have to be defending themselves from their opponents spells at the same time. Vader is different because he doesn't need to cast a spell to counter a spell. He can block it with his lightsaber, and before Voldemort has the chance to cast another spell, Force Pull his wand out of his hand as easily as he did Han's blaster.

[Aotrs Commander]

Snape was killed with a single swipe of Sectumsempra.

Uh...no, he wasn't... Snape was killed by Nagini's bite - the fact he didn't die immediately was the reason that Harry was able to get his memories out. That was true of both movie and film, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

[Xondoure]

Calling bs on the worming out of the disarming spell. If that were true you would never return fire just counter attacks the whole time. A spell that effectively puts your opponent at your mercy should be used a hell of a lot more, and it simply isn't. Only reasoning I can come up with is that it's ineffective.

[Forum Explorer]

Accio as far as I know can't be used to disarm someone. That is I don't think it comes up in canon. It as far as I know only works on unattended objects.

[Xondoure]

Right, expelliarmus on the other hand has exactly that purpose. And only Harry ever uses it. If it was effective I'd guess he wouldn't be the only one.

[ChaosLord29]

Counterspelling and defense are obviously a necessary part of wizard dueling the same way it is in any form of combat, and the reason your return fire, is of course because you can't win just by defending.

As I said, the reason wizards don't simply accio their opponents wands out of their hands may be that it's very easy to defend against (with Protego or Finite). But that doesn't directly translate to mean that Force Pull would be equally easy to defend against.

For one thing, Force Pull (alternatively Vader could use Force Push to accomplish the same effect, without calling the wand directly to his hand) is a telekinetic Force Technique. Protego might work if Vader were directing a Force Push at him, but in this case the Force is directly affecting his wand, essentially causing it to jump out of his hand of its own volition. Secondly, Vader can do this with an effective force (Small 'F') several orders of magnitude more powerful than we've ever seen Accio used.

The most important point though remains that Vader could use this technique, just after or while Voldermort is in the process of casting another spell. As you've pointed out, Voldemort doesn't need the elaborate wand motions or to say spells aloud in order to cast them. However, there's still an effective 'casting time' for any spell he has to sling at Vader, who unlike most wizards, doesn't have to respond by ducking, or dodging or casting a spell of his own to defend himself. All he has to do his raise his lightsaber, and use Force Pull at the same time.

[Fragenstein]

Snape was killed by the Snake.

Damn. You're right. It was only in the movie that he slit Snape's throat. My bad.

And, yes, I'll give you that a force-empowered light saber can deflect magical bolts. Fortunately, there's a long list outside of that class...

Antonin Dolohov's Curse. It creates a jet of flames that causes magical, symptomless damage. Depending on how focused the flames are, it might have more surface area than a saber can intercept.

Bedazzling Hex. Vader can't kill what he can't see. That one doesn't even target the Sith Lord.

Confringo. Here's a bolt-hex, but it can be used to target things around Vader and cause damage through the resulting explosion.

Deprimo. A very powerful wind that can blow holes in floors. Every bit as good as a force-push but without really being blockable.

Evanesco. Makes the target vanish. Basically a sourceless disintegration. Where's your lightsaber now?

Expulso. Again, another spell to make objects around Vader explode with great force.

Fiendfyre, which we've already discussed and would remind Vader as to why lava sucks.

Incarcerus. Ropes appear out of nowhere.

Incendio. Again, a blast of flame.

Sticking Charms. I hope Vader likes that piece of floor.

Obliviate. Wipe out a target's memory -- mentioned here because the effect can be spread out enough to hit multiple people. That doesn't sound bolt-based to me.

Oppungo. Even if Voldemort is not allowed the use of his Deatheaters for this fight, he still has summoning spells. Have a room full of monsters, Vader.


Seriously. So many spells, and that's without delving deeply into the dark arts handbook. Vader has a limited number of ways to win, most of which require a degree of physical agility not displayed in the movies. Voldemort has many.

[ChaosLord29]

Right, expelliarmus on the other hand has exactly that purpose. And only Harry ever uses it. If it was effective I'd guess he wouldn't be the only one.

Expeliarmus causes a sort of magical backfire in the wand, and thus to fly out of someone's hand and knock them backwards, so it's actually pretty effective as both a counter and a way to disarm your opponent. Harry uses it to great effect (much greater than many other wizards) in part because he just has a natural talent for it.

Force Pull functions in a very different manner, one that is much more difficult for a Wizard to defend against. Also, look how long that word is: 'Expeliarmus'. That's like 5 syllables. I'm inclined to think that the reason it's not used in combat as much is because there are wizards who could cast two spells in the time it takes you to say just that one word. Even if you can silent cast it, it's still a bloody hard word to remember and say in your mind correctly.

*****

I've been trying to avoid this because I think it bogs down the overall discussion, but I don't see one spell on that list that can't be effectively countered through the Force using only a few rudimentary techniques.

Antonin Dolohov's Curse- If Vader can in fact use Force Absorb (again there's no canon answer) this one should be easy enough to absorb since it's basically just magical fire. Otherwise a kinetic barrier or Force Push should keep the flames from actually touch him. He doesn't need his lightsaber to deflect this spell.

Bedazzling Hex- Vader can block blaster bolts without being able to see. All Jedi effectively have improved blindfight as a feat, for free.

Confringo- Probably the best spell on this list, Vader could, potentially dive into the line of fire in order to deflect it, but that means he's equally capable of diving out of the line of fire.

Deprimo- You said it yourself, every bit as good as Force Push, and the most effective way to counter it would be a Force Push of your own to counter the wind.

Evanesco- Never used canonically in combat, I imagine for the same reason as Accio. Unattended objects and lower life forms are much easier to 'vanish' than things in people's hands (like wands) and Force Sensitive human beings.

Expulso- Something I didn't mention above, but you can actually use Force Push to cushion the force of explosions. In conjunction with Vader's armor and his excellent abilities to 'take cover' I'm guessing this wouldn't be as effective as it would against say another Jedi, or Wizard.

Fiendfyre- See Dolohov's curse. There's no reason Vader can't Force Absorb or simply Force Push the fire away from him. Even if it is magical, animal shaped fire.

Incarcerus- Vader cuts them with his lightsaber or bursts them in a feat of strength.

Incendio- Already covered.

Sticking Charms- Interesting, I suppose Vader would have to actually cancel the spell itself or else rip the floor up with his leg. Good job finding this one.

Obliviate- Again, always bothered me that Wizards aren't throwing this one around right and left. Vader however has a particularly strong mind, trained to be shielded against mental attacks. If that's not good enough, there's a Force Technique specifically for shielding one's mind.

Oppungo- Voldemort's best chance at distracting the Dark Lord of the Sith. Anything he summons of course is unlikely to be lightsaber proof, but it may grant Voldemort the time he needs to execute a well placed confrigo or the like.

[hamishspence]

Damn. You're right. It was only in the movie that he slit Snape's throat. My bad.


It wasn't even in the movie, as far as I know:


Uh...no, he wasn't... Snape was killed by Nagini's bite - the fact he didn't die immediately was the reason that Harry was able to get his memories out. That was true of both movie and film, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

[Xondoure]

Most any spell can be cast nonverbally. Many have to be cast that way. The only one I'm prepared to say has to be spoken aloud is Avada Kedavra.

And I'm pretty sure a shield charm would block wingardiam leviosa so I'd say using the force to pull the wand out could be counter spelled just as well. Seriously though we covered this. Assuming transparency means that counters are effective. You can't say it's the force so it works differently and thus can't be blocked by magic.

Vanishing the lightsaber would be hilarious. Evanesco in general is just a fun spell. The force just doesn't have a way to compete with transfiguration. It really only covers a tiny portion of the charms spell book as is.

Edit: Oh and before I forget, Voldemort mastered imperio without knowing the spell name or handling a wand at the age of maybe six or seven. I'm going to assume he could summon his wand back were it to get knocked away.

[Fragenstein]

Uh...no, he wasn't... Snape was killed by Nagini's bite - the fact he didn't die immediately was the reason that Harry was able to get his memories out. That was true of both movie and film, so I don't know where you're getting that from.

Various edits may differ, but the movie did actually have Snape's throat being slit before Nagini went into action. The Harry Potter wiki backs that up, as well.

Heh. While looking for images of the scene, I did manage to find this:

http://data.whicdn.com/images/2835587/tumblr_l4ussfkwmQ1qcv16zo1_500_large.png

Maybe we can't agree on Vader vs. Voldemort, but I think we can at least all get behind that.

Aw... that shouldn't be a link...

[ChaosLord29]

Various edits may differ, but the movie did actually have Snape's throat being slit before Nagini went into action. The Harry Potter wiki backs that up, as well.

Heh. While looking for images of the scene, I did manage to find this:

http://data.whicdn.com/images/2835587/tumblr_l4ussfkwmQ1qcv16zo1_500_thumb.png

Maybe we can't agree on Vader vs. Voldemort, but I think we can at least all get behind that.

Too true. I mean, talk about a series that can't get it's lore in order.

*****


And I'm pretty sure a shield charm would block wingardiam leviosa so I'd say using the force to pull the wand out could be counter spelled just as well. Seriously though we covered this. Assuming transparency means that counters are effective. You can't say it's the force so it works differently and thus can't be blocked by magic.

It's not that the Force is different, it's that this particular technique, is working in a way that Protego is not meant to counter. I think the bigger question is whether a shield charm would block 'Locomotor'. I mean, Dolores Umbridge uses it to defend against the arrows fired by the centaur's, but in the books it's only ever used to combat spells, never physical objects.


Vanishing the lightsaber would be hilarious. Evanesco in general is just a fun spell. The force just doesn't have a way to compete with transfiguration. It really only covers a tiny portion of the charms spell book as is.

I'm going to use your own reasoning here against you. "A spell that effectively puts your opponent at your mercy should be used a hell of a lot more, and it simply isn't. Only reasoning I can come up with is that it's ineffective."- Xonodoure


Edit: Oh and before I forget, Voldemort mastered imperio without knowing the spell name or handling a wand at the age of maybe six or seven. I'm going to assume he could summon his wand back were it to get knocked away.

Woah, where are you getting this from? is that in the seventh book? He could read people's minds without a wand at the age of 7?

That's worth giving some credit to *applause*. The question still stands though, have we ever seen a wizard summon their wand to their hand? I feel like we have, but I can't quite remember.

[hamishspence]

In the book 6 flashback scenes it's clear kiddy Voldemort can make people do things - and his "tell the truth!" command to Dumbledore is implied to have magical force behind it. Though it doesn't seem to affect him.

[ChaosLord29]

In the book 6 flashback scenes it's clear kiddy Voldemort can make people do things - and his "tell the truth!" command to Dumbledore is implied to have magical force behind it. Though it doesn't seem to affect him.

That's pretty cool, I always thought you needed a wand to perform Legilimens or Occlumency. In any case, is there a single comparable moment to when Luke pulls his lightsaber to him in the wampa's cave in episode V? Or Better example, when he pulls it to him on the Sand Skiff in Episode VI?

[hamishspence]

In one scene, when Harry's wand has fallen out of his hand, he says "Lumos!" and it lights up despite not being in hand.

[Traab]

That's right. He could barely hold off one of the most brilliant wizards of all time who also happened to be using a wand crafted by Death himself.

You can fall back on cliches and quote 'plot armor' all you want, but Voldemort demonstrates front-line effectiveness in the books which you're not recognizing.

And please don't make references to fan-fictions. We're dealing with source material here. If Rowling's own descriptions of Voldemort's competency aren't enough to convince you he was more than just an armchair general, then I think we've reached a dead end.

Yes, he was incredibly strong, my point was, he was only invincible due to plot prophecy armor. While he is barely holding off dumbledoore, two moody level aurors move in and hamstring the bastard. Game over. They keep him crippled and contained until dumbledoore figures out a way to ensure that he can never return. As for front line effectiveness, yes he does. Once. At the end of book 7. And he loses. The only times we read about him fighting its the standard one on one confrontation with harry, and once with dumbles. The only time its an actual fight is against dumbles, while harry is saved by lucky chance each and every single time. Not by greater skill or power, blind luck. So he gets into a grand total of ONE real fight over the course of seven novels, and one real duel, which he is forced to retreat from in book 5. He isnt winning against dumbles, so he falls back and tries to possess harry. That isnt exactly a long resume of battle experience.


Yeah this Voldemort as an old scholar thing has me boggled. If nothing else James Potter was no slouch and he went down in seconds. Yes that was simple use of AK but it proves a point. He only ever tortures his victim when he knows there is no chance they could pose a threat to him. Such as Lily Potter who didn't try to fight back. (though that was partly because he would have let Snape "keep her" had she not refused to move. Which in an odd way makes Snape's love for Lily the only reason Lily's love for Harry even mattered.)

Or let's look at his servants such as Bellatrix Lestrange who was fighting what? Three or four members of the order at once and holding her own? Do you honestly think she'd last a second against the dark lord? If it were as easy as throwing a rock in the way of the killing curse it would happen more often. Honestly the way the spell was first described it was like someone flicked a bright green light switch on and off and whatever the wand was pointing at died. Yes, it got scaled back. But my point is the only defense Vader has against it is his lightsaber, because AK may look it but it's really not an energy attack in the sense that it could be absorbed or deflected. So either of them lose their weapon this fight is over. Trouble is using a charm to disarm someone's wand is child's play which would never be used by any reasonable wizard in a real fight. And that forces the question of why? Because as you so aptly pointed out a wizard without his wand is a sitting duck. The only reasonable conclusion is that there are numerous ways to counter any attempts to disarm them, and any wizard that's not a complete lout will be prepared enough to counter it.

But let's look at Dumbledore. Who he fought against when Dumbledore had the elder wand and Voldemort would have won had circumstances not worked against him. To be clear this is the same Dumbledore that defeated Grindlewald who's basically the dark wizard equivalent of Hitler when Grindlewald had that same wand that until that point could not be beaten. Except this Dumbledore has had a few decades to really perfect his technique.

Now Harry. He always expects to win against Harry. Every time they meet he thinks he's found some new way to get around the Deus Ex Machina of love. Which means he's just fighting some average teenage wizard and has nothing to fear. Vader exudes power. And he's a complete unknown. A more cautious Dark Lord I think is to be expected.

So if Vader opens with a force leap (which we never saw him use even when it would be to his advantage I might add) Voldemort throws him back as far as he can. Next time Vader get's up Voldemort will make sure not to give him the same opportunity. Probably by flying. A surprise force leap is not going to cut it. How is jumping high impressive enough to catch him off guard when wizards are so often in the air? Telekinetics are counter able (with protego I might add, or more permanently, that repellant charm molly weasley used on the doors to keep the twin's extendable ears out. Actually... I wonder if that would block a lightsaber? Probably not or it would have been used on the horcruxes to make them basilisk proof.) Which maybe leaves direct control against Voldemort himself but again, force crush has a dark magic equivalent so Voldemort would probably be able to counter it, and there's literally a spell just for clearing your throat. If he doesn't just choose to apparate away.

tl;dr: Voldemort's very very good, and has ways of keeping the fight at a range. Where he will win. Also, Vader loses his lightsaber he's dead too.

1) Snape was screwed up in the head. Honestly. "yeah master, please go murder her husband and child, then bring her back to me to be my mudblood love slave. Im sure she will come to love me in time." As for james and lily getting wiped out, its true, and I have never claimed voldemort was a wimp in combat, far from it. My point was only that it should have been possible for dumbledoore to take him down with a little help without needing harry at all. Only the prophecy kept that from being an option. If dumbledoore can take voldemort to his limit, then dumbledoore plus 1 good fighter should be able to win.

2) If you mean final battle, she was fighting luna, hermione, and ginny? Then mrs weasley stormed in and killed the *^%*^&. Yes, bella was skilled and sadistic, but two sixth years and a seventh year had her on the ropes. As for the ak, the problem with summoning objects to block it is being fast enough to do so. You have to see where the curse is heading, cast a summoning/transfiguration spell, and get the item in the path before it can hit you. Its not blaster bolt speeds, but it still moves pretty fast. Of course, vader is used to blocking things that move way faster, so he has that advantage against the killing curse.

3) Dumbledoore was actually winning against voldemort at the ministry. At the very least stalling the heck out of voldemort. Thats why he resorted to trying to possess harry. Because voldemort couldnt outright beat him.

4) True, he always figures out a way around whatever harry did last time to escape only to run face first into a new deus. As for facing vader, you may be right, he likely wouldnt play around upon seeing vader. The thing is, its hard to judge how voldemort would fight him as a serious threat because we only have one example of voldemort ever fighting a serious threat, his ministry battle with dumbledoore. Its been awhile since I read that book, but iirc, it took several attempts at landing an ak or other direct attacks before he started getting esoteric and less blaster style. Fighting vader is WAY different than dueling another wizard. Another wizard is going to stay at range and cast, counter, cast, as many spells as he can till one or the other loses. Thats what voldemort would likely expect. To see a super fast guy with a glowing "wand" come running right for him, and deflecting the spells he launches as he dashes forward would likely rattle the hell out of him.

5) Force leap. Why would vader force leap BEFORE voldemort starts flying? They are both on the ground facing each other. Vader will just run up and cut him in half. If voldemort manages to survive long enough to get airborne THEN we would see a force leap, and then its a 50/50 shot as to whether voldemort would be able to repel him in time or be shocked long enough for vader to close in and swipe. That charm molly used was an anti eavesdropping charm. It isnt some sort of invulnerable shield thing. As for why it would be surprising? Maybe because other than voldemort, everyone else needs a freaking broom, (or ford angelina) to fly and noone just leaps 40 feet into the air like that?

Honestly, getting in the air is his only way of surviving against vader, and the chances that he would think of that in time strike me as rather low. Aside from that scene in book 7 escape from privit drive, I think thats the only time we ever see voldy pulling that trick, so its likely not something he is always considering doing in a fight.

6) For gods sake, that spell is to remove a physical blockage. A chunk of pork, a sword swallowing gone wrong, whatever, force choke doesnt grab the nearest chunk of chicken and shove it down your throat, it wouldnt work. And voldemort is far more reliant on his wand than vader is on his sword. Voldemort summons the saber, vader force yanks his wand, then vader kills voldemort. Its equally as likely to work on one as the other. As in, not very. You dont ever see jedi yanking sabers out of each others hands. You see them flinging the sabers after they disarm their opponent though. that implies ripping it out of vaders hand aint going to be easy. And he has means of staying at range, but does he have the time to use them? Apparate apparate apparate. It doesnt get used in battle in the books. Obviously it isnt a viable mid fight tactic. He can fly yes, but will he think of it before he loses his limbs?

[Xondoure]

Okay apparition. Ever notice how all the big battles take place in the ministry and Hogwarts? Well I'm not positive on the ministry (though we do see flop powder and toilets used instead) but what does miss Granger pound into our heads? You can't apparate inside of Hogwarts! So the fact that it never get's used in combat does not mean it can't be used in combat at all.

And no. Voldemort will not sit there with a dumbstruck look on his face while Vader jumps at him. He has a hundred and one spells to send him flying right back and he's sure to use them.

Next comes the vanishing spell and transfiguration in general. Transfiguration is hard magic. Not so easily suited to a battlefield, but when we do see it come into play the effects are on the has side. Such as Molly Weasley turning bellatrix to stone. And say what you will about Luna Hermione and Ginny (In order the crazy one, the prodigy, and the most talented hexer we meet) but three against one are not favorable odds. Bellatrix lost because she severely underestimated Molly Weasley's momma bear streak.

So evanesco doesn't get used a whole lot because targeting a wand during a duel is a stupid idea. Lightsabers are a tad more well defined. And I can turn your own logic against you here. If Vader tries to deflect the invisible bolt with precog the invisible bolt will simply vanish away the lightsaber.

So yes, I imagine a lot of this fight would be spells being slung and Vader deflecting them but Voldemort will change tactics eventually, and then Vader would be out of luck.

[ChaosLord29]

So evanesco doesn't get used a whole lot because targeting a wand during a duel is a stupid idea. Lightsabers are a tad more well defined. And I can turn your own logic against you here. If Vader tries to deflect the invisible bolt with precog the invisible bolt will simply vanish away the lightsaber.

You know, I suppose if Vader did try to deflect Evanesco, it would vanish away the lightsaber. If a lightsaber were a simple object. Remember the simpler something is, the easier it is to vanish, and a lightsaber is anything but simple. Can you vanish a magnetic field? What about the raw energy that composes the blade? Can you use Evanseco to simply vanish energy like that?

It has some interesting implications, but the biggest most complicated thing we ever see vanished is, what? A small mammal? Maybe more complex machinery than a lightsaber, but I can't begin to fathom what it might take to vanish that much energy or the effect it would have on the lightsaber.


So yes, I imagine a lot of this fight would be spells being slung and Vader deflecting them but Voldemort will change tactics eventually, and then Vader would be out of luck.

See, right there. That's why I think Vader would win.

". . . I imagine a lot of this fight would be spells being slung and Vader deflecting them but Voldemort will change tactics eventually . . ."

Eventually. As in, after Vader has had more than enough time to get into melee range and cut Voldemort in half. The longer this fight drags on, and the longer Voldemort has to study Vader, the better chance he has. However, the longer the fight goes on, the greater the chance that Vader's reflexes and Force techniques will confound Voldemort and let him get in a killing strike.

Vader can easily finish this fight in the first few seconds, has the potential to dominate a mid game during which Voldemort is still trying to figure out his opponent and what spells are best suited to combating him. Voldemort can win the long game, but I just don't see him lasting long enough to survive those initial mistakes.

[Traab]

Okay apparition. Ever notice how all the big battles take place in the ministry and Hogwarts? Well I'm not positive on the ministry (though we do see flop powder and toilets used instead) but what does miss Granger pound into our heads? You can't apparate inside of Hogwarts! So the fact that it never get's used in combat does not mean it can't be used in combat at all.

And no. Voldemort will not sit there with a dumbstruck look on his face while Vader jumps at him. He has a hundred and one spells to send him flying right back and he's sure to use them.

Next comes the vanishing spell and transfiguration in general. Transfiguration is hard magic. Not so easily suited to a battlefield, but when we do see it come into play the effects are on the has side. Such as Molly Weasley turning bellatrix to stone. And say what you will about Luna Hermione and Ginny (In order the crazy one, the prodigy, and the most talented hexer we meet) but three against one are not favorable odds. Bellatrix lost because she severely underestimated Molly Weasley's momma bear streak.

So evanesco doesn't get used a whole lot because targeting a wand during a duel is a stupid idea. Lightsabers are a tad more well defined. And I can turn your own logic against you here. If Vader tries to deflect the invisible bolt with precog the invisible bolt will simply vanish away the lightsaber.

So yes, I imagine a lot of this fight would be spells being slung and Vader deflecting them but Voldemort will change tactics eventually, and then Vader would be out of luck.

Assuming voldemort doesnt get cut in half in the first 5 seconds because vader ran up, deflected his spells, and cut his freaking head off. They dont use apparition at the graveyard during the fight. Why try to catch up with harry if they can just port in front of him? They dont use it during the escape from privet. Even though they can see harry and the motorcycle he is on, and you would think its a nice easy target to hit with a moments concentration, they instead keep trying to run him down. There are plenty of times that apparition would have been a handy dandy way to end a fight and yet it is never used that way. The last time I remember it being used in an emergency, didnt ron splinch himself somewhat when they were first making a break for it in book 7 after the wedding? Voldemort is not going to be teleporting around the battlefield, he just isnt. Flight is his best chance, but once again, how the heck is he supposed to know that before its too late? He doesnt have time to think about things, or to plan ahead. He doesnt have advance knowledge on what vader can do and what his weaknesses are. He has no reason to take flight right off the bat.



Vader can easily finish this fight in the first few seconds, has the potential to dominate a mid game during which Voldemort is still trying to figure out his opponent and what spells are best suited to combating him. Voldemort can win the long game, but I just don't see him lasting long enough to survive those initial mistakes.

Also, one of the most annoying abilities of a lightsaber isnt just deflecting bolts, but deflecting them BACK AT THE SHOOTER. If vader can do that often enough, then voldemort will be spending as much time dodging or blocking his own spells as he will sending them after vader.

[Fragenstein]

Assuming voldemort doesnt get cut in half in the first 5 seconds because vader ran up, deflected his spells, and cut his freaking head off....

Also, one of the most annoying abilities of a lightsaber isnt just deflecting bolts, but deflecting them BACK AT THE SHOOTER. If vader can do that often enough, then voldemort will be spending as much time dodging or blocking his own spells as he will sending them after vader.

That's assuming he even opens with a spell that's bolt-based and can be reflected. Should that happens with Voldemort's opening salvo he's just going to reposition himself out of melee range and make use of the area-effect spells.

[Traab]

That's assuming he even opens with a spell that's bolt-based and can be reflected. Should that happens with Voldemort's opening salvo he's just going to reposition himself out of melee range and make use of the area-effect spells.

He isnt going to open with some aoe spell because he has no idea what vader can do and has no reason not to stick with his standard complement of spells. Most likely, he will think that vader has come up with some new sort of reflective shield and go right for the unforgiveables. Only after seeing them being ineffective would he go for indirect attacks, but by then it could be too late. This isnt some teenager in decent shape running at him, its a freaking jedi/sith! The speed will be unreal compared to what voldemort is used to, and he wont have a lot of time to figure out a solution to his problem. Flight is his only chance at survival, and even that isnt a lock on victory for him. He has to figure out that he needs to take to the skies and actually manage to do it, all before that lightsaber carves through him seconds into the battle.

[Fragenstein]

He isnt going to open with some aoe spell because he has no idea what vader can do and has no reason not to stick with his standard complement of spells. Most likely, he will think that vader has come up with some new sort of reflective shield and go right for the unforgiveables. Only after seeing them being ineffective would he go for indirect attacks, but by then it could be too late. This isnt some teenager in decent shape running at him, its a freaking jedi/sith! The speed will be unreal compared to what voldemort is used to, and he wont have a lot of time to figure out a solution to his problem. Flight is his only chance at survival, and even that isnt a lock on victory for him. He has to figure out that he needs to take to the skies and actually manage to do it, all before that lightsaber carves through him seconds into the battle.

Where's this speed coming from? Post-burn Anakin has never shown that sort of olympic prowess. Certainly he's never exhibited the jackrabbitry of the old Republic Knights.

Unless there are canon novels showing him still having superhuman speed, then Voldemort is going to have some time to work a few things out.

spell...spell...spell... damn, he keeps deflecting and is about to behead me. Okay, now I'm thirty feet behind him. Let's see what Fiendyre will do.

Voldemort is one of the most accomplished Apparators in the world. Only he and Dumbledore could perform the act so quickly and (specifically pointed out by the sources), with absolute silence. The teleporting that we see being performed regularly is the rank amateur version.

Deflecting the spell back AT Voldemort? Yeah, that's a viable tactic. But it's also one that can happen in wizard duels. Vader would have to get lucky to catch Voldemort out with one of his own curses.

[Traab]

Where's this speed coming from? Post-burn Anakin has never shown that sort of olympic prowess. Certainly he's never exhibited the jackrabbitry of the old Republic Knights.

Unless there are canon novels showing him still having superhuman speed, then Voldemort is going to have some time to work a few things out.

spell...spell...spell... damn, he keeps deflecting and is about to behead me. Okay, now I'm thirty feet behind him. Let's see what Fiendyre will do.

Voldemort is one of the most accomplished Apparators in the world. Only he and Dumbledore could perform the act so quickly and (specifically pointed out by the sources), with absolute silence. The teleporting that we see being performed regularly is the rank amateur version.

Deflecting the spell back AT Voldemort? Yeah, that's a viable tactic. But it's also one that can happen in wizard duels. Vader would have to get lucky to catch Voldemort out with one of his own curses.

And yet in the books voldemort never uses this mythical ability to teleport in combat. More likely what would happen is,

spell...spell...spell.. damn he keeps deflecting and is about to behead me. Gotta fly out of heAARRRRGH! MY LEGS! HE CHOPPED OFF MY LEGS!

As for never using the speed, its a standard jedi force ability. I cant explain why he doesnt use it in the last trilogy, not in a way that would be canon, I can assume its lack of special effects needed to make that happen. I mean, the whole luke jumping out of carbonite thing looked like a special effects throwback to the days of silent movies.

[Fragenstein]

And yet in the books voldemort never uses this mythical ability to teleport in combat. More likely what would happen is,

spell...spell...spell.. damn he keeps deflecting and is about to behead me. Gotta fly out of heAARRRRGH! MY LEGS! HE CHOPPED OFF MY LEGS!

As for never using the speed, its a standard jedi force ability. I cant explain why he doesnt use it in the last trilogy, not in a way that would be canon, I can assume its lack of special effects needed to make that happen. I mean, the whole luke jumping out of carbonite thing looked like a special effects throwback to the days of silent movies.

The places where Voldemort conducted his most dire of duels were locked down from apparation. I will give you that not using it in the graveyard to intercept Harry was a massive oversight.

But clumsy Vader? I always like going back to the older ways, where things like this were explained in my youth during the original releases. Obi-Wan had lost a lot of his skills due to aging. Luke was poorly trained and Vader not only had to rely on inferior prosthetics but was in a constant state of decay due to exposure to the force... just like Palpatine.

Then again, those explanations also showed why the Fully Sith Palpatine didn't have a light saber while the Jedi-trained Vader himself used one instead of Lightning... which turned out to not be true. A lot of accepted lore was overturned around the time we were given midichlorians and it was only then where we saw how inferior the IV-VI force users were to those in good health and properly trained.

Regardless, Vader had mechanical arms and legs that, in the movies at least, just didn't seem to work nearly as well as natural ones. The books may present different imagery.

[Traab]

The places where Voldemort conducted his most dire of duels were locked down from apparation. I will give you that not using it in the graveyard to intercept Harry was a massive oversight.

But clumsy Vader? I always like going back to the older ways, where things like this were explained in my youth during the original releases. Obi-Wan had lost a lot of his skills due to aging. Luke was poorly trained and Vader not only had to rely on inferior prosthetics but was in a constant state of decay due to exposure to the force... just like Palpatine.

Then again, those explanations also showed why the Fully Sith Palpatine didn't have a light saber while the Jedi-trained Vader himself used one instead of Lightning... which turned out to not be true. A lot of accepted lore was overturned around the time we were given midichlorians and it was only then where we saw how inferior the IV-VI force users were to those in good health and properly trained.

Regardless, Vader had mechanical arms and legs that, in the movies at least, just didn't seem to work nearly as well as natural ones. The books may present different imagery.

Now im not saying this to argue, but im honestly unsure if the books justifying vaders slow movements would count as doesnt lucas claim they arent true canon? Have we had Word of God from lucas about vader and his capabilities? I ask because, just as we can assume that all three were sub par fighters at that stage, we can also claim that as they were fighting each other, they were cancelling each others abilities out. Both vader and obi wan were moving faster than they should at their age, or with their injuries, but since they were both doing it, it looked normal. (Also there is the fact that fight choreography sucked back then compared to what we can see now)

[Fragenstein]

Now im not saying this to argue, but im honestly unsure if the books justifying vaders slow movements would count as doesnt lucas claim they arent true canon? Have we had Word of God from lucas about vader and his capabilities? I ask because, just as we can assume that all three were sub par fighters at that stage, we can also claim that as they were fighting each other, they were cancelling each others abilities out. Both vader and obi wan were moving faster than they should at their age, or with their injuries, but since they were both doing it, it looked normal. (Also there is the fact that fight choreography sucked back then compared to what we can see now)

It's an important factor to find out, honestly. If Vader actually had moves like General Grievous... that's going to be hard to counter. Voldemort has likely encountered fast-moving monsters in his time and would know how to handle them, but Vader's a different monster entirely.

Half of my pro-Voldemort stance is based on the sedate movements we from Vader. He never runs, never jumps and his saber technique is languid at best. That could have been fixed by Lucas overlaying a computer-generated Vader moving in ways that a masked David Prowse lacked.

But he didn't. He left Vader to stomp around the stage with slightly more agility that C-3PO. Can someone display canon evidence that Vader retained (if not improved upon), prime-of-health Anakin's athletics?

[ChaosLord29]

That canon is that Vader's cybernetic limbs coupled with the heavy armor he was now wearing limited his flexibility, but enhanced his strength and agility. Vader was considered to be an even more lethal combatant after being placed into his armor, because his lightsaber form was now very much unique and unpredictable.

You're right that he can't backflip around and swing his lightsaber in elaborate patterns like in Episode III, however, the reason most lightsaber combat takes place like that in general is because all the weight of the lightsaber is in the hilt, and the powerful magnetic field created to contain the blade gives the saber a hell of a lot of momentum to continue spinning and sweeping in a certain direction. That, and the fact that lightsaber duels are carried out between precogs, and are fought several moves in advance.

Vader was more lethal because while he had a more limited flexibility with his swings, he was stronger than ever before and could control the movements of his lightsaber to a greater degree.

As for his land speed, he's perfectly capable of using the Force for accelerated movement, jumping and lunging. Since his cybernetic legs are stronger and never get tired, I imagine he'd have a slight edge over the standard Jedi. The reason you never see it in the film is more or less because we lacked the technology to depict that with special effects, and there's never really call for him to use it, is there?

Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader actually depicts Vader's initial struggle to adapt his lightsaber combat to his new life support suit of armor, but he adapts quickly to it, and still retains his ability to sprint and leap when necessary. This is, as far as I can tell, the canon depiction of Vader immediately following the events of Episode III and the series follows him leading up to the events of Episode IV.

[Chen]

Half of my pro-Voldemort stance is based on the sedate movements we from Vader. He never runs, never jumps and his saber technique is languid at best. That could have been fixed by Lucas overlaying a computer-generated Vader moving in ways that a masked David Prowse lacked.

But he didn't. He left Vader to stomp around the stage with slightly more agility that C-3PO. Can someone display canon evidence that Vader retained (if not improved upon), prime-of-health Anakin's athletics?

Uh if they tried "computer" generated Vader when the original trilogy came out it would have looked like claymation at best.

[Fragenstein]

Uh if they tried "computer" generated Vader when the original trilogy came out it would have looked like claymation at best.

No, no... I'm talking about the digitally enhanced versions. The ones with all the added background animation and the confrontation between Han and Jabba. Lucas could have replaced Vader with a more agile special effect if he honestly wanted the Sith Lord to be shown that way.

As to ChaosLord -- using his hightened agility might have kept him from losing to Luke in the last movie. Unfortunately, an enraged farm-boy was able to batter Vader into submission before taking his hand.

I don't know. I'm not really seeing it. It seems like at some point during the three movies he might have had cause to at least jog.

It sounds like we're coming down to who takes the offensive first and why. After all, we only know that they're facing each other at a distance and are going to fight.

If Voldemort treats Vader like either a Muggle or Harry, then he'll likely lose.

If, on the other hand, he reacts in the ruthless and clever manner he's described as using against genuine threats, then he has enough tools to take he Sith down.

[Traab]

No, no... I'm talking about the digitally enhanced versions. The ones with all the added background animation and the confrontation between Han and Jabba. Lucas could have replaced Vader with a more agile special effect if he honestly wanted the Sith Lord to be shown that way.

As to ChaosLord -- using his hightened agility might have kept him from losing to Luke in the last movie. Unfortunately, an enraged farm-boy was able to batter Vader into submission before taking his hand.

I don't know. I'm not really seeing it. It seems like at some point during the three movies he might have had cause to at least jog.

It sounds like we're coming down to who takes the offensive first and why. After all, we only know that they're facing each other at a distance and are going to fight.

If Voldemort treats Vader like either a Muggle or Harry, then he'll likely lose.

If, on the other hand, he reacts in the ruthless and clever manner he's described as using against genuine threats, then he has enough tools to take he Sith down.

The problem is that one, he knows nothing about vader, so for all he knows its some oddly dressed dark lord wannabe looking to take down the champ. And he would go into the fight expecting a standard stand back and duel each other fighting style. Has he ever fought someone that wanted to close to melee range and kill him in hand to hand? if I had to compare it to anything, it would be, picking up the current heavyweight champion of boxing, and setting him up against a heavyweight mma champion, and telling them to fight, without telling each other who their opponent is. The boxer will be expecting to get into a boxing match, and will likely get leveled by a kick to the sternum.

Its basically the same thing here. Voldemort will be expecting a standard ranged battle with spell fire being exchanged. What he will get is vader charging for him and blocking his standard complement of spells, if not smacking them back into voldemorts face.

Going back to the movies, I dont think lucas would have done it that way because its one thing to replace rubber alien costumes in the background with a robot band, or to add in a character that wasnt there originally, but to cut out the actual actors and put in cgi versions? I think that might be crossing a line too many even for him. (and yes i know about the "NOOOOOO!" Its a different thing, basically adding a sound effect to the scene)

You also talk about how an enraged farm boy battered vader down, several points about that. 1) plot armor. Vader had to lose that fight 2) Luke may not have the experience of vader, but he WAS trained, and very powerful. 3) voldemort got his butt kicked by a 1 year old, an 11 year old, a 14 year old, got his possession stomped by a 15 year old, etc etc etc.

[Xondoure]

Harry never beat the dark lord one to one. The graveyard was at best a stalling tactic. So that's a flimsy excuse.

So is the lack of special effects. So what? Suck it up. That's what we see, and that's his capabilities. Also if anyone insults Bob Anderson again I'm officially dropping out of this conversation. :smalltongue:

Now apparition. Voldemort is not Ron. Ron managed to splynch himself but used the technique under very stressful conditions. Extrapolating from that means it is possible for the dark lord.

And as to Vader winning the long term game. I'm sorry but that makes next to zero sense to me. The more the two become aware of the others abilities the more Voldemort's diversity of actions is going to come into play. You never give a wizard prep time. Never ever ever. If Vader is going to win he'll do it right as the fight begins, and seeing as the first time he tries to close the gap Voldemort will just send him flying that isn't going to happen.

As for vanishing the lightsaber... If it were any other wizard I'd agree with you. But this is Voldemort, so the spell being too difficult doesn't cut it. Hell, vanishing is hard, but normal transfiguration is decidedly less so. Voldy just turns the lightsaber into a snake.

Edit: Oh, and there's one other thing that sends spells flying back at the caster: protego.

[Traab]

Harry never beat the dark lord one to one. The graveyard was at best a stalling tactic. So that's a flimsy excuse.

So is the lack of special effects. So what? Suck it up. That's what we see, and that's his capabilities. Also if anyone insults Bob Anderson again I'm officially dropping out of this conversation. :smalltongue:

Now apparition. Voldemort is not Ron. Ron managed to splynch himself but used the technique under very stressful conditions. Extrapolating from that means it is possible for the dark lord.

And as to Vader winning the long term game. I'm sorry but that makes next to zero sense to me. The more the two become aware of the others abilities the more Voldemort's diversity of actions is going to come into play. You never give a wizard prep time. Never ever ever. If Vader is going to win he'll do it right as the fight begins, and seeing as the first time he tries to close the gap Voldemort will just send him flying that isn't going to happen.

As for vanishing the lightsaber... If it were any other wizard I'd agree with you. But this is Voldemort, so the spell being too difficult doesn't cut it. Hell, vanishing is hard, but normal transfiguration is decidedly less so. Voldy just turns the lightsaber into a snake.

Edit: Oh, and there's one other thing that sends spells flying back at the caster: protego.

Or we could extrapolate that apparition while under stress is a bad idea. Since we never read anything about voldemort apparating while under attack, we can assume that he isnt capable of doing it. I do agree that the long term game favors voldemort, but the short term favors vader, and the chances of an uninformed voldemort LASTING till the long game is vanishingly remote. Send vader flying? Please, deflect deflect deflect, decapitate. Myabe if voldemort goes into full run away mode and gets into the sky the second he sees how fast vader is closing the gap he might have a chance, but voldemort isnt the running type. He would be chopped apart quickly.

Vanishing his saber? If the magic would work on it that easily, he wouldnt be able to deflect any of the other spells either, so I doubt that would work.

[Xondoure]

Or we could extrapolate that apparition while under stress is a bad idea. Since we never read anything about voldemort apparating while under attack, we can assume that he isnt capable of doing it. I do agree that the long term game favors voldemort, but the short term favors vader, and the chances of an uninformed voldemort LASTING till the long game is vanishingly remote. Send vader flying? Please, deflect deflect deflect, decapitate. Myabe if voldemort goes into full run away mode and gets into the sky the second he sees how fast vader is closing the gap he might have a chance, but voldemort isnt the running type. He would be chopped apart quickly.

Vanishing his saber? If the magic would work on it that easily, he wouldnt be able to deflect any of the other spells either, so I doubt that would work.

Well yeah. It's magic. It isn't a blaster bolt. A few spells sort of represent that, and he probably could try and deflect them. Others are not, though they do come from a wand.

Edit: As for apparition, ron is rubbish at it. The other two were not splinched.

[Traab]

Well yeah. It's magic. It isn't a blaster bolt. A few spells sort of represent that, and he probably could try and deflect them. Others are not, though they do come from a wand.

Edit: As for apparition, ron is rubbish at it. The other two were not splinched.

Still, that was by using it as an emergency escape option, not a method of bouncing all over the place kiting your opponent and we had an injury. It is never used in combat, therefore it isnt admissible as a strategy for voldemort to use in the fight. There are hundreds of spells that arent used in combat, and in many cases, especially with the ones that seem to be so damn powerful, there must be a REASON they dont get used. There is a lot of magical combat of all levels in harry potter. There must be a reason why we never see someone shooting off a sticking charm, or vanishing a wand, or transfiguring a person into bone china.

[Xondoure]

Still, that was by using it as an emergency escape option, not a method of bouncing all over the place kiting your opponent and we had an injury. It is never used in combat, therefore it isnt admissible as a strategy for voldemort to use in the fight. There are hundreds of spells that arent used in combat, and in many cases, especially with the ones that seem to be so damn powerful, there must be a REASON they dont get used. There is a lot of magical combat of all levels in harry potter. There must be a reason why we never see someone shooting off a sticking charm, or vanishing a wand, or transfiguring a person into bone china.

Vanishing a wand I already pointed out you have to target it. Not that easy. I seem to recall a certain bellatrix being turned into stone and then shattered. As for sticking charms, well, how useful is a sticking charm versus petrificus totalus, levicorpus, stupefy, or avada kedavra? But if those actions can be countered, then wizards do have other options.

And I'll repeat. There are very few fights where apparition was an option. But we see it both used to get the drop on an opponent (quidditch world tournament) and under pressure (the trio in book seven, though I'm sure there are others) so there's no reason to not assume the most talented dark wizard couldn't do both.

[Traab]

Vanishing a wand I already pointed out you have to target it. Not that easy. I seem to recall a certain bellatrix being turned into stone and then shattered. As for sticking charms, well, how useful is a sticking charm versus petrificus totalus, levicorpus, stupefy, or avada kedavra? But if those actions can be countered, then wizards do have other options.

And I'll repeat. There are very few fights where apparition was an option. But we see it both used to get the drop on an opponent (quidditch world tournament) and under pressure (the trio in book seven, though I'm sure there are others) so there's no reason to not assume the most talented dark wizard couldn't do both.

That was in the movie, in the book she was just nailed in the heart with a curse, they never say what it was. A lot of the battle scenes were altered for the movies to make them more enjoyable to watch or whatever. The aurors at the quidditch cup were able to gather together at a safe place, concentrate, and execute a preplanned strategy. That is WAY different than teleporting to avoid attacks while in mid battle. It is technically possible to use it to make a rushed escape, though dangerous to try, but as a battle tactic it is never used. Trying to claim voldemort could do this is like trying to claim that superman could do xyz because his powers work like so. Even though he nevers uses them that way. Voldemort isnt going to be bouncing around apparating left right and center to dodge vader. Whether its because he cant, or because it doesnt occur to him, either way, its not going to happen. He has his own style of combat, and popping around like a jack rabbit isnt a part of that style.

As for sticking charms, I was just listing one of the list of spells that we never see used in battle that has great theoretical applications at random. My point still stands. There is most likely a reason we dont see these spells being used, despite them being in the harry potter lexicon, and despite the fact that they seem to have devastating potential. Whether its a matter of wizards holding the idiot ball, or that there is a specific reason why that spell wouldnt work in that scenario doesnt matter, it isnt ever used.

[Xondoure]

Sure it matters because I just explained the reason: usually they aren't very practical. But against an unusual opponent why wouldn't they come into play. And yes that was the films. But we see transfiguration applied against humans all the time. Barty Crouch Jr. turns malfoy into a ferret with an irritated flick of his wand.

[Traab]

Sure it matters because I just explained the reason: usually they aren't very practical. But against an unusual opponent why wouldn't they come into play. And yes that was the films. But we see transfiguration applied against humans all the time. Barty Crouch Jr. turns malfoy into a ferret with an irritating flick of his wand.

Thats true. I forgot about the malfoy transfiguration. I have no idea why it isnt used more often in combat. Turning your opponent into some sort of animal would end a lot of fights very rapidly. So why doesnt it get used? Is it too draining? Is it ineffective against an opponent with a strong will? Is it easily blocked somehow? Does it take too long to actually cast? For all we know, barty jr was winding up that spell for the last 5 seconds and unleashed it on malfoy when he made his presence known. Not saying thats the case, but it DOES seem to be one hell of an effective technique, so for it to not be used more often, or in an actual fight, implies there is some reason why not.

As for why wouldnt they come into play, its entirely possible that EVENTUALLY voldemort would start using obscure stuff to see what works. Thats honestly why I give him the long term edge in a fight. Eventually he will find something that works, if he can stay in one piece long enough. The thing is though, voldemort wont have a reason to go obscure right off the bat. He will have to cycle through his normal spells first, because everyone has their own habits. Juts like harry spams expelliarmus like its going out of fashion, voldemort has his own personal preferences, and these randomly, rarely used spells, arent a part of those preferences. Thats why i think he would lose to vader, because vader would most likely kill voldemort in a direct fight before he has the chance to start experimenting on what spells will and will not work against vader. You keep listing all these spells that he could use, all these spells that would work on vader, and you are right, they would. But voldemort doesnt know this and will be wasting valuable time trying to figure that out. Time he doesnt have as vader is coming charging like a freight train straight for him.

[Xondoure]

Thats true. I forgot about the malfoy transfiguration. I have no idea why it isnt used more often in combat. Turning your opponent into some sort of animal would end a lot of fights very rapidly. So why doesnt it get used? Is it too draining? Is it ineffective against an opponent with a strong will? Is it easily blocked somehow? Does it take too long to actually cast? For all we know, barty jr was winding up that spell for the last 5 seconds and unleashed it on malfoy when he made his presence known. Not saying thats the case, but it DOES seem to be one hell of an effective technique, so for it to not be used more often, or in an actual fight, implies there is some reason why not.

As for why wouldnt they come into play, its entirely possible that EVENTUALLY voldemort would start using obscure stuff to see what works. Thats honestly why I give him the long term edge in a fight. Eventually he will find something that works, if he can stay in one piece long enough. The thing is though, voldemort wont have a reason to go obscure right off the bat. He will have to cycle through his normal spells first, because everyone has their own habits. Juts like harry spams expelliarmus like its going out of fashion, voldemort has his own personal preferences, and these randomly, rarely used spells, arent a part of those preferences. Thats why i think he would lose to vader, because vader would most likely kill voldemort in a direct fight before he has the chance to start experimenting on what spells will and will not work against vader. You keep listing all these spells that he could use, all these spells that would work on vader, and you are right, they would. But voldemort doesnt know this and will be wasting valuable time trying to figure that out. Time he doesnt have as vader is coming charging like a freight train straight for him.

And I already said any number of blasting spells could send Vader flying right back to where he was before. Thus giving Voldemort time to find ways around Vader's defenses.

[Fragenstein]

Well, it's about time someone looked this up on Wookieepidia...



The Emperor ordered the medical droids to keep him awake during the agonizing surgery so the pain would fuel his rage, and therefore his power.

So... don't use Crucio. Bad choice. That might be a mark against Voldemort as it's one of his favorite weapons.


His new robotic extremities were updated versions of the same technology that transformed General Grievous into a cyborg. Though he would still remain extremely powerful, Sidious knew that the injuries Vader had sustained had robbed him of much of his potential.

Really? I remember Genndy Tartakovsky's treatment of Grievous to be very fast and agile. I suppose the movies put more focus into his multiple arms and rotating saber routines, however. Still, he was a renowned slayer of Jedi and even forced Obi-Wan to resort to using a blaster.


He broke his bindings on the operating table and struggled to walk under the sheer weight of his new prostheses and armor. ... His armor limited his vision, restrained his movement, and caused extreme frustration for Vader (in the early years, at least), but he would eventually retool his entire fighting style to make up for the lack of mobility that his armor imposed on him.

Okay, then. Lack of mobility. It doesn't sound like Vader is going to be charging Voldemort with inhuman speed. Which means that the Sith is going to be the boxer facing off against an MMA champion.

Vader's advantages are starting to dwindle. He still has his Force Sensitivity which should register Voldemort's intense power and Dark Arts, so that's going to give him a warning. But he'll likely see the wizard as a fellow Sith Lord and make an attempt at recruitment before launching immediately into an attack.

Further, that attack probably wouldn't include anything directed at the wand until he actually sees it in action. When has Vader ever been afraid of a stick? Clearly the thing's not a lightsaber.

Would Voldemort recognize Vader as a non-muggle? He certainly doesn't look like one, especially with that cape. I'd have to say the initial moments of this fight is going to be a mutual attempt at domination, which would certianly include a Mind Reading performed by Voldemort that's on a power level equal to Palpatine.


He was particularly skilled in Legilimency and gained a reputation as one of the most accomplished Legilimens the world has ever seen. He was able to delve and peer deep into the minds of others, seeing their deepest thoughts. Voldemort could almost always tell when someone was lying, and was able to use Legilimency to place visions in his victims' minds, such as the one he sent to Harry Potter in 1996.[17] The most remarkable part about this skill was that he seemed to be working on it while he was still a child in the orphanage. Very few people were skilful enough to shield themselves from him, via Occlumency, like Severus Snape, Albus Dumbledore, and perhaps Narcissa Malfoy and Gellert Grindelwald.

Maybe Vader is powerful enough to keep him out. That's up for debate, but here's a few other things to consider about Voldemort...


Young Tom Marvolo Riddle utilised magic without the use of a wand or even knowing the very existence of magic itself.

So much for that weakness. He's still dangerous even without the wand.


Lord Voldemort was an exceptionally skilled duellist and was able to hold his own against an Elder Wand-wielding Albus Dumbledore, and duel Minerva McGonagall, Kingsley Shacklebolt and Horace Slughorn (who were masterful duellists themselves) all at once. During his duel with McGonagall, Slughorn and Shacklebolt, the Elder Wand-wielding Voldemort almost defeated all three of them despite the fact that he had not unlocked the Elder Wand's full power, and they were all protected by Harry's loving sacrifice. The Dark Lord was also able to overpower many other prodigious witches and wizards, such as Amelia Bones and was responsible for the death of the extremely powerful ex-Auror, Alastor Moody. Voldemort had an extremely aggressive duelling style using powerful Dark Magic to overwhelm his opponents. Apparently, he only chose to face opponents whom he saw as worthy adversaries.

So... yeah. A lot of personal combat experience.


Like Albus Dumbledore, Voldemort was skilled in manipulating the element of fire. He burned Neville with a flick of his wand, and created an enormous flaming serpent to kill Dumbledore and Harry during the Duel in the Ministry Atrium although he have failed to do so.

So, no, he doesn't always resort to Avada Kedavra to kill people, nor does he rely strictly on bolt-based attacks and Vader may not have the Force-equivalent counterspell to survive such an assault.


Lord Voldemort was a master of Apparation, using this ability during his duel with Albus Dumbledore.

There you go. Apparation during a duel.


Voldemort has the power to possess living creatures, and gain complete control over their actions by doing so. Once the possession is done, the victims will have no knowledge of what happened. While in his spectral form when he lost his body from a rebounding Killing Curse, possession was the only power that remained with him.

No wand. Still has power. Perhaps Vader could resist the possession, but we see further indication that disarming Voldemort is not the assured victory we think.


Voldemort was also capable of using spells wandlessly and non-verbally as shown in the Battle of the Department of Mysteries, where he disarmed Harry Potter with a simple wave of his arm. Voldemort also used his hand to remove the masks from the Death Eaters who returned to him after his rebirth as he scolded them. During the Battle of Hogwarts Voldemort pushed a dead giant out of his way with a lazy wave of his hand. Voldemort was able to cast simple charms, dark spells and other more advanced magic without saying anything. He could additionally cast non-verbal Cruciatus and Killing Curses.

So Voldemort ALSO has Force TK. Without a wand. Good on him.


The best example of his efficiency as a leader would be the fact that he, with the help of less than fifty united Death Eaters completely overwhelmed and came very close to dominating the entire population of magical Britain during the First Wizarding War.

The man's not stupid. He understands tactics and does not underestimate dangerous opponents.

Suck it, Sith Lord!

[Prime32]

Young Tom Marvolo Riddle utilised magic without the use of a wand or even knowing the very existence of magic itself.So much for that weakness. He's still dangerous even without the wand.The same thing applied to Harry. Wizards grow out of that once they start learning magic properly.

[Fragenstein]

The same thing applied to Harry. Wizards grow out of that once they start learning magic properly.

Voldemort didn't. He demonstrated at least two powerful, non-wand based abilities; the telekenesis and possession.

You need to start understanding that Voldemort is not your average wizard. In fact, even Harry was able to use Lumos without being in direct contact with his wand. This was brought up pages ago.

And let me restate: created a flaming serpent with a flick of his wand. No complex incantations. No cumbersome movements. Just... there, living fire monster. In your face.

[Traab]

Voldemort didn't. He demonstrated at least two powerful, non-wand based abilities; the telekenesis and possession.

You need to start understanding that Voldemort is not your average wizard. In fact, even Harry was able to use Lumos without being in direct contact with his wand. This was brought up pages ago.

And let me restate: created a flaming serpent with a flick of his wand. No complex incantations. No cumbersome movements. Just... there, living fire monster. In your face.

His wandless magic as a child involved dominating muggle children. He wasnt exactly juggling balls of feindfire or summoning demons. Basically it was compulsion charms. Powerful enough for dumbledoore to notice, not powerful enough to do anything to him. Not saying it was useless, but I am saying that its not like he wouldnt notice losing his wand. He would be greatly crippled in offensive and defensive abilities. He could still do some things, but not anywhere near as many, or as powerfully, as he could with his wand.

[Fragenstein]

His wandless magic as a child involved dominating muggle children. He wasnt exactly juggling balls of feindfire or summoning demons. Basically it was compulsion charms. Powerful enough for dumbledoore to notice, not powerful enough to do anything to him. Not saying it was useless, but I am saying that its not like he wouldnt notice losing his wand. He would be greatly crippled in offensive and defensive abilities. He could still do some things, but not anywhere near as many, or as powerfully, as he could with his wand.

As an adult, he tossed aside a creature who's race averages 20ft in hight with a casual, wandless ease.

How are you not getting that? For that matter, how are you not getting that he has, as an innate ability, the same offensive capability of Vader himself? Furthermore, his ability to fly is not listed as a charm and is likely just as innate as the tk and possession.

All wizarding children exhibit wild, uncontrolled bursts of magic, yes. But Voldemort didn't lose his upon mastering the wand. He expanded them.

How are you also not getting that his most lethal spells can be cast instantaneously? It's been brought up that a wizard is slow when unleashing their powers. Voldemort is not. He's just as quick in casting as Vader will be in all of his Force based abilities.

[ChaosLord29]

As an adult, he tossed aside a creature who's race averages 20ft in hight with a casual, wandless ease.

How are you not getting that? For that matter, how are you not getting that he has, as an innate ability, the same offensive capability of Vader himself? Furthermore, his ability to fly is not listed as a charm and is likely just as innate as the tk and possession.

All wizarding children exhibit wild, uncontrolled bursts of magic, yes. But Voldemort didn't lose his upon mastering the wand. He expanded them.

How are you also not getting that his most lethal spells can be cast instantaneously? It's been brought up that a wizard is slow when unleashing their powers. Voldemort is not. He's just as quick in casting as Vader will be in all of his Force based abilities.

This is where we fundamentally disagree, and I believe the argument has come to an impasse. I just can't bring myself to believe that a wizard using a wand and magical words can be quicker on the draw and in the execution of spells than a Sith Lord with the Force.

I just don't see canonically where you are drawing this from. In the books, we never really get a clear depiction of how long it takes Voldemort to cast spells, except that it takes him a couple lines of text to be described. That doesn't translate directly into time, but it's never described as being particularly faster than another wizard except during the duel with Dumbledore, and even then it's no where close to the superhuman reflexes exhibited by Vader.

Furthermore there's nothing in the books to support that Voldemort is any better at performing magic without a wand than any other wizard. That is to say, he can't do it. Occlumency, Legilimens aren't really spells, and the flying thing is replicated by Snape which leads me to believe that it too is a spell.

Finally, and most significantly, I have yet to see good argument as to why Voldemort should take Vader seriously as an opponent, given his arrogance towards non-wizards. That pride will surely lead him to begin the battle with AK, which will be easily deflected, if not bounced back at Voldemort (remember the last time that curse was reflected at him?) and Vader will be all over the Dark Lord, hacking him to pieces.

There is no evidence in the books to support that you can apparate away from opponents to avoid imminent death like that, and even if you could, in the split second you have to do it, where is the most immediate place you're going to think about being? 30ft behind your opponent? Up in the air away from your opponent? Probably somewhere safe, and secure in the form of a retreat.

[Fragenstein]

This is where we fundamentally disagree, and I believe the argument has come to an impasse. I just can't bring myself to believe that a wizard using a wand and magical words can be quicker on the draw and in the execution of spells than a Sith Lord with the Force.

I just don't see canonically where you are drawing this from. In the books, we never really get a clear depiction of how long it takes Voldemort to cast spells, except that it takes him a couple lines of text to be described. That doesn't translate directly into time, but it's never described as being particularly faster than another wizard except during the duel with Dumbledore, and even then it's no where close to the superhuman reflexes exhibited by Vader.

Furthermore there's nothing in the books to support that Voldemort is any better at performing magic without a wand than any other wizard. That is to say, he can't do it. Occlumency, Legilimens aren't really spells, and the flying thing is replicated by Snape which leads me to believe that it too is a spell.

Finally, and most significantly, I have yet to see good argument as to why Voldemort should take Vader seriously as an opponent, given his arrogance towards non-wizards. That pride will surely lead him to begin the battle with AK, which will be easily deflected, if not bounced back at Voldemort (remember the last time that curse was reflected at him?) and Vader will be all over the Dark Lord, hacking him to pieces.

There is no evidence in the books to support that you can apparate away from opponents to avoid imminent death like that, and even if you could, in the split second you have to do it, where is the most immediate place you're going to think about being? 30ft behind your opponent? Up in the air away from your opponent? Probably somewhere safe, and secure in the form of a retreat.

Those are all direct quotes from both Wookieepedia and the Harry Potter Wiki site. That's as close an authority as we're going to get on both unless you insist I retrieve my digital copies of the Potter novels and personally review each supporting scene.

The limitations placed on both Vader's mobility and vision by his armor seem to match what's depicted by the movies.

[Forum Explorer]

OK this is how I see how this fight can go down.

Vader starts moving towards Voldemort. Yes he is slow by Jedi and his old standards, but by normal human it's still decently fast.

Voldemort opens with his classic Killing Curse. Voldemort always seems to use this spell first.

Vader deflects it, and responds with force choke while continuing to move forward.

Voldemort does one of two things; some obscure charm/transfiguration spell so he can breath or uses Crucio to try and disrupt Vader's concentration.

If Voldemort uses Crucio he loses here. With pain enhanced rage Vader's force choke would become stronger. He would also get too close to recover from that mistake.

If Voldemort uses one of the other two he can try and back off while he thinks of another spell.

Vader uses either Force Push or throws objects at Voldemort as he continues to close the distance.

If Vader uses Force Push Voldemort is slammed to the ground and injured. He tries to use a spell to escape but Vader is too close and just cuts him to pieces.

If Vader throws objects at Voldemort he can use Progeto to deflect them.

Voldemort has time for one last spell. It must either stop Vader outright, slow him dramatically, or move Voldemort away. If he does none of those things Vader will kill him. If he thinks for too long Vader will kill him. If his attack is just ineffective (like a fire serpent would be) Vader would kill him. If he is just too slow Vader will kill him.

Honestly I think I'm being generous on how many spells Voldemort gets to cast before Vader reaches him.


How fast is Voldemort's flight anyways?

[ChaosLord29]

OK this is how I see how this fight can go down.

Vader starts moving towards Voldemort. Yes he is slow by Jedi and his old standards, but by normal human it's still decently fast.

Voldemort opens with his classic Killing Curse. Voldemort always seems to use this spell first.

Vader deflects it, and responds with force choke while continuing to move forward.

Voldemort does one of two things; some obscure charm/transfiguration spell so he can breath or uses Crucio to try and disrupt Vader's concentration.

If Voldemort uses Crucio he loses here. With pain enhanced rage Vader's force choke would become stronger. He would also get too close to recover from that mistake.

If Voldemort uses one of the other two he can try and back off while he thinks of another spell.

Vader uses either Force Push or throws objects at Voldemort as he continues to close the distance.

If Vader uses Force Push Voldemort is slammed to the ground and injured. He tries to use a spell to escape but Vader is too close and just cuts him to pieces.

If Vader throws objects at Voldemort he can use Progeto to deflect them.

Voldemort has time for one last spell. It must either stop Vader outright, slow him dramatically, or move Voldemort away. If he does none of those things Vader will kill him. If he thinks for too long Vader will kill him. If his attack is just ineffective (like a fire serpent would be) Vader would kill him. If he is just too slow Vader will kill him.

Honestly I think I'm being generous on how many spells Voldemort gets to cast before Vader reaches him.


How fast is Voldemort's flight anyways?

Comparable to broom speeds, which are capable of going as fast as cars, but since their are no windshields and Voldemort is not wearing goggles, figure he can fly a little faster than an owl in flight.

I tend to agree with your analysis, with the exception that I think Voldemort would take to the air sooner. Granted, casting the spell to fly means one less opportunity he has for an offensive spell and basically gives Vader an opportunity to Force Push or Force Pull him back down to the ground.

Edit: Also, since I missed the lack of mobility discussion, I've read the book and that's specifically in reference to his lightsaber fighting style. The lack of mobility being referenced their is that the armor now limits the kinds of attacks and swings and maneuvers he can use with a lightsaber. Think of it like being a fencer with a rapier and then suddenly having to put on breastplate armor.

The Wookieepedia page is specifically referencing the first few moments Vader has the armor on, and there's a lot of references in the book to how Vader also felt "heavy with grief" so there's some confusion as to what he's feeling isn't at least partly psychosomatic. The point is, by the end of the book (and the article) he's still the most deadly lightsaber duelist in the Galaxy, and demonstrates numerous feats of agility and speed outside the scope of human ability during while battling with the 501st.

The weight of the armor means he is slower than other Jedi, but he still retains his ability to enhance strength and speed through the Force, and while his new momentum means he probably won't be making any quick turns, Vader can still lunge and jump and sprint faster than any other human could, unarmored. I realize I'm drawing heavily on the EU here, but take it from me, the only reason we don't see it in the film is because the costume the guy is being made to wear is clumsy and heavy in comparison to what Vader's armor is supposed to be, and David Prowse can't use the Force.