Monster Challenge rating

[chomskola]

I have heard that the MM's occasionally overestimate the CR of a given monster. IM curious if any of the monsters from any of the MM's UNDERESTIMATE the CR!

[Flickerdart]

Have you heard of the Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)? It's nominally CR3, meaning that it should be a simple fight for a 3rd level party with about 20% HP loss. However, it has high HP, good AC, powerful attacks and a downright obscene grapple modifier that few 3rd level character could match. If used as suggested, the crab will kill two players and escape, and they can't really do anything about it.

Then there's the MM2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046), famous for wonky CRs, both over and under.

And finally, dragons are often 1 or 2 points under-CRed, especially when played intelligently - but they're freakin' dragons, so most people just roll with it.

[DogbertLinc]

Yes, many. The most famous one is probably the Adamantine Horror being a CR9 with at will Implosion, Disjunction and Desintegrate.

Search for the MM2 thread on these forums, it's actually pretty interesting.

[supermonkeyjoe]

I've found several monsters in the MM3 that were a bit underestimated, Storm elementals have a few very nasty attacks that if they aren't prepared against can wipe out an appropriately leveled party in a couple of rounds.

[Balor01]

@DogbertLinc
According to fluff, there is a single such entity in whole universe, so its not really under-CRed.

[Flickerdart]

@DogbertLinc
According to fluff, there is a single such entity in whole universe, so its not really under-CRed.
There's only one of a lot of things. That doesn't mean their CRs should be 10 levels off-kilter in terms of what special attacks they have access to.

[killem2]

Have you heard of the Monstrous Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)? It's nominally CR3, meaning that it should be a simple fight for a 3rd level party with about 20% HP loss. However, it has high HP, good AC, powerful attacks and a downright obscene grapple modifier that few 3rd level character could match. If used as suggested, the crab will kill two players and escape, and they can't really do anything about it.

Then there's the MM2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187046), famous for wonky CRs, both over and under.

And finally, dragons are often 1 or 2 points under-CRed, especially when played intelligently - but they're freakin' dragons, so most people just roll with it.

I can't view wizards site at work, do you know what book that monstrous crab is in?

[DogbertLinc]

I can't view wizards site at work, do you know what book that monstrous crab is in?

The famous version is in web version only (I think). Stormwrack has a less wacky version of the same creature.

[Featherman]

Lantern Archons are pretty brutal for their CR. DR 10/Evil and Magic, At-will Aid, surprisingly high AC (against evil foes) and flight make them very hard to kill and 2 ranged touches for 1d6 is not bad damage. The CR 2 is what makes them so hard as it is difficult to drop them with a level 1 spell but they quickly fall of since level 2 spells can kill them (though if no suitable spell is prepared, spells are used before the encounter, ranged touch misses etc. they can still make short work of groups).

Too bad they are much easier to kill outside core.

Some unique/"boss" monsters such as the Tarrasque, Hydras, some true dragons (especially metallic), Krakens and the Adamantine Horror are purposefully tough. They are also probably meant to be alone even though they could benefit greatly from allies. Some low CR monsters can be devastating in some circumstances (such as shadows, magmins and lantern archons). Generally low CR monsters are much more challenging for low level groups than high CR monsters are for high level groups.

[chomskola]

So if I understand this right, the more you go outside core, the more options available to PCs, making PCS stronger and monsters relatively weaker?

[Flickerdart]

So if I understand this right, the more you go outside core, the more options available to PCs, making PCS stronger and monsters relatively weaker?
Wrong. A core-only Wizard, Cleric or Druid can pulverize just about anything except a mirror match, whereas all but three (Archivist, StP Erudite, Artificer) classes that appear outside of core are substantially weaker.

And besides, anything PCs can use, monsters can use too.

[dspeyer]

Wrong. A core-only Wizard, Cleric or Druid can pulverize just about anything except a mirror match, whereas all but three (Archivist, StP Erudite, Artificer) classes that appear outside of core are substantially weaker.

And besides, anything PCs can use, monsters can use too.

Even so, a caster gets stronger every book that prints spells. Monsters stay as they are except for the few that get actual casting.

Speaking of actual casting, I think the most under-CRed monster is the Wyrm Steel Dragon. CR 16, casts as a 20th level sorcerer, attacks at +42 (before buffs) and with 34hd, it can take Automatic Quicken Spell 3 times (assuming it get spellcraft as a class skill somehow).

[Flickerdart]

Even so, a caster gets stronger every book that prints spells. Monsters stay as they are except for the few that get actual casting.
Except all the most powerful spells are still in core, with the exception of Celerity and Ice Assassin. Every time a spellcaster learns a non-core spell, chances are that they're weaker than they would have been with an intelligent core pick.

[Orchius]

While core has most of the best spells, some feats from outside core vastly improve them. Take for example Energy Affinity from the Miniatures Handbook, which modifies any elemental spell's damage to the type of elemental damage specified when you take the feat, at no extra spell slot. Therefore, you cold Polar Ray a white dragon and deal fire damage, meteor strike a red dragon and deal 6d6 bludgeon + 24d6 cold damage, etc. Or you can take quicken metamagics (same book), those definitely improve your spell casting damage.

[Flickerdart]

Dealing a different type of damage with a Polar Ray or a Meteor Swarm isn't "vastly improving" anything, because you're just using a crappy spell in a different, equally crappy way.

[Orchius]

Meh, EA is just something for fun (even though it can be useful/realistic for certain climates/elemental plane adventures), but the point being that some outer core feats like Sudden Metamagics are very nice. By Sudden Metamagics I refer to feats that grant an unprepared, unaugmented-spell level spell a free metamagic effect; really quite nice, and very beneficial to use the equivelant of a level 13 spell at level 17 (level 9 +4 from Sudden Quicken). No denying that freely quickening or maximizing a spell definitely improves spellcasting.

[Rogue Shadows]

How about a paragon, insectile, multi-headed, half black dragon, half green dragon, half blue dragon,half red dragon, half gold dragon, monstrous beast, winged cat (advanced as monster manual increased by six size categories) skeleton it's CR1/6

I...coulda' sworn some of those templates added CR...in fact the half-dragon template says that it's "Same as base creature +2 (minimum 3)"

[Zaranthan]

Yes, this is correct you apply paragon, insectile, multi-headed, half black dragon, half green dragon, half blue dragon,half red dragon, half gold dragon, monstrous beast, and winged. It's challenge rating is now 36 or so, now let us look at the skeleton template, how does it adjust challenge rating. It sets the challenge rating to a fixed number based on the HD of the creature, this cat has 1/2 of an HD so it's challenge rating is 1/6:smalltongue:

I won't dispute the raw RAW of this creature. What I will ask is what your point is. Assembling all these templates implies a great deal of system knowledge. Are you arguing that the CR system is broken at its greatest extremes or what? Because the CR system not being perfect won't be disagreed with by anyone who has played 3E or 3.5 for a great deal of time.

[Bahamut Omega]

I think advanced undead are pretty broken, especially at early levels. Consider an Advanced Megaraptor Skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) and advance it further. FYI, it starts with 12 HD and is a CR6.

Every 4 HD is required before its CR increases by 1. So let's just say I increase the HD by 8 and thus the CR by 2. However, that increase means that there were two ability score increases (1 to strength and another to dex). It also means 52 extra hit points, bringing the total for the monster to 130. And also a +4 increase to the BAB along with bonuses to all it's saves (+4 to Will; +2 to Fort and Ref). What's more, with 20 HD in all now, it's impossible for a core only 8th level cleric to turn it (the most would be 12 HD).

Also as an undead, nothing short of a ton of damage will kill it, but it's immune to crits and sneak attacks. So the only practical alternate is arcane nuking, however, even this isn't really practical. An 8th level wizard fireballing the monster will do, on average, 28 damage. You'd need at least 5 fireballs to drop it.

While you're trying to deal enough damage to kill this thing, it's attacking like a lunatic. Every full attack includes talons (2d8+6), 2 claws (1d8+3), and a bite (2d6+3).

This is a mindless undead, so it might not seem that bad and perhaps it isn't, but this gets exponentially worse when you consider intelligent undead like shadows or vampires and thus gain skill points and feats in addition to everything else. Honestly, I don't think any DM worth his screen should ever advance undead using the advancement recommendations in the RAW.

[Flickerdart]

130 HP on a CR8 critter? Not a big deal.

On average, the crappiest of unoptimized characters will deal about 30 damage at that level. That means that a party of such characters only needs 2 rounds to drop the skeleton. I'm not impressed.

[Yoven]

once sent an Imp CR2 against 3 lvl2 PCs.. (yes it matters that the Sorcerer emptied his daily spells earlier and was quite useless)
but against fighter types, melee Chars etc you can TPK with a single Imp without any Problems. Insane AC, Damage Reduction, good ABs and Poison....

[Killer Angel]

Except all the most powerful spells are still in core, with the exception of Celerity and Ice Assassin. Every time a spellcaster learns a non-core spell, chances are that they're weaker than they would have been with an intelligent core pick.

It’s not a mere matter of spells (which anyway are not limited to the ones you’d listed… pick the orb of force, for example). We’re talking casters? We have PRCs, matamagic reducers, feats, new class features (abrupt jaunt?) and so on. We’re talking meleers? TOB. Magical objects? The list is long. The bard shines brightly outside Core. And so on...
The monsters printed in the MM1 usually stay the same; except for few cases, you’re enhancing the PCs only. The trick of Allip Vs Tarrasque is not Core.

(edit: while the PHII is Core, I would considerate it a thing apart from PHI, which is the core manual printed togheter with the MMI)

[Dumbledore lives]

130 HP on a CR8 critter? Not a big deal.

On average, the crappiest of unoptimized characters will deal about 30 damage at that level. That means that a party of such characters only needs 2 rounds to drop the skeleton. I'm not impressed.

I think you're underestimating unoptimization. They'll be dealing about 10 damage a turn and with damage reduction that will only be 5. It has a decent chance of killing one person against an unoptimized fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue.

As for under-CRed creatures there is the dragon in the Monsters of Faerun which is CR 5, Gargantuan, has 135 hit points, and will easily kill with a full attack dealing 4d6 + 8d8 + 36, with +18 or +13 to hit. It also has spell resistance 20. Even a level 8 or so party will have some difficulty.

[ILM]

By Sudden Metamagics I refer to feats that grant an unprepared, unaugmented-spell level spell a free metamagic effect; really quite nice, and very beneficial to use the equivelant of a level 13 spell at level 17 (level 9 +4 from Sudden Quicken). No denying that freely quickening or maximizing a spell definitely improves spellcasting.
Yes, but having to burn all your feat slots on prerequisites just to quicken spells for free 3/day is rather limiting.

[Bahamut Omega]

130 HP on a CR8 critter? Not a big deal.

On average, the crappiest of unoptimized characters will deal about 30 damage at that level. That means that a party of such characters only needs 2 rounds to drop the skeleton. I'm not impressed.

I know a lot of posters on the OOTS board reference a slew of splat books, but I consider only core for examples such as these.

I'm not sure how you expect a rogue or cleric to deal that much damage. I could see a two handed fighter power attacking for that much, but there's a notable risk of missing on the second swing. For example, an 8th level fighter probably has an attack bonus of +14 (+8 BAB, +2 weapon, +4 strength) and power attacks at +9/+4. Damage from a connecting attack is 1d12 (weapon)+10 (power attack)+6 (strength)+2 (enhancement)=1d12+18, thus the average damage is 24 per successful hit. The secondary attack has about a 50/50 chance of missing, so I'll assume 12 from that for 36 in all. For the record, this doesn't account for the loss of 10 damage should the fighter not be using a bludgeoning weapon. This fighter's options to deal damage are gone if grappled. Also, a sword and board fighter can't practically approach this damage with core.

Assume a cleric casts Cure Critical Wounds (4d8+8) on it and he'll deal about 26 hit points except that spell allows a save for half (DC's about 20 at best). Since undead get a good will save (+12 for the proposed skeleton), it'll pass about 60% of the time, so the damage on that spell is about 18.2.

I am legitimately asking what the rogue can do.

Undead aren't normally just one and done, though. So this raptor's probably gone 1 or 2 others with it, so it's now 260-390 hit points for a CR9.5 encounter. Bear in mind, those attack options I offered are only against 1 enemy. Now that there's a group, arcane nuking becomes a lot more requisite than optional.

If that's not convincing, consider intelligent undead then. Take all the mindless undead benefits and add some more. Take a standard mummy and advance it from a CR5 to a CR10, this requires the addition of 20 hit dice. Thus, the despair and mummy rot DCs increases to 26 at a minimum, 29 if the mummy puts all their extra ability boosts into charisma. Even without the boosts going towards charisma, that will save is practically impossible for an average 10th level fighter (about +7 assuming a +2 cloak of resistance and a 14 wisdom).

In addition, the mummy gains 7 feats from the extra hit dice. Just spending one on Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword) gives the mummy iterative attacks at a BAB of +14 and attack bonus of +21/+16/+11 (add 2 to all of these if it puts the ability score boosts into strength). With those remaining 6 feats he may as well get power attack and related feats, maybe a boost to his reflex save, possibly a few boosts to his natural armor as well or an ability boost.

Really my whole point is that the advancement CR rules treat the addition of hit dice to a monster as though it's cheap candy. Extra hit dice have a profound effect, though. Pretty much any supernatural ability halves hit dice and adds an ability modifier to determine a DC. Extra hit dice pile on hit points very quickly. They boost BAB, saves, skill points, feats, and ability score increases. On top of it all, there are a lot of spells whose effects are dependent entirely upon a creature's hit dice to function. I never cared for how dismissively the addition of hit dice were treated.