Core Food

[chomskola]

Food in core looks kidna strange to me. I have seen the thirst and starvation rules. IT just says " a meal" the DMG goes through 3 different qualities of meal and then describes..no..game ..effects. Even the trail ration doesnt include how many meals are encompassed by it..so can anyone clarify this for me? Has anyone instituted house rules regarding food like..food giving circumstance bonuses on heal checks, or recovery or some other house rule bringing game effects with food?

[ahenobarbi]

Well most people don't want to be bothered by eating rules.

[Rallicus]

Well most people don't want to be bothered by eating rules.

True.

I just use the SRD rules. Not sure how it's explained in the core because I've literally never seen starvation and dehydration rules in my PHB (edit: or DMG).

From the SRD:

"Starvation And Thirst

Characters might find themselves without food or water and with no means to obtain them. In normal climates, Medium characters need at least a gallon of fluids and about a pound of decent food per day to avoid starvation. (Small characters need half as much.) In very hot climates, characters need two or three times as much water to avoid dehydration.

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage."

(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm)

[Andorax]

If you can find a copy, look at the last page of Dragon #356, where our very own OOTS team weighs in on this very issue :smallsmile:

Basically, what Rallicus said. Eat a day's rations or a meal in an inn, drink from your waterskin and refill it on a daily basis (pack several when heading into dry areas, or have someone memorize create water), and you're good to go.

[Erik von Nein]

Well most people don't want to be bothered by eating rules.

I know, they're all papery and gross.


But eating rules almost never come up because they, like rules regarding hot/cold environments, almost never effect level 5-and-up characters. Not only can you usually afford never ending rations or food but you most likely can just ignore the worst aspects of not eating.

[nedz]

The creators of 3E were philostines, they have no taste skill.

There is no smell skill either.

Now we have listen and spot and the Scent ability.

The performance arts are well covered, as are the various crafts; but where is Art Appreciation, or Knowledge (History, of Art) ?

They could, at the very least, have produced a Complete Chef splatbook.

[Slipperychicken]

Well most people don't want to be bothered by eating rules.

This. SRD has starvation rules, if you want them. It just says that you get "growing discomfort" for a few days, then un-healable nonlethal damage every hour or so, Fatigue sets in, but no explicit death. I'd rule your character dies once nonlethal damage from starvation/thirst equals your max HP or greater.

I've heard of houserules that living/eating well (like you aren't a shotgun hobo) grants very small (+1 or 2) save bonuses for 24 hours, scaling with quality of life.

[Verte]

I just use the SRD rules. Not sure how it's explained in the core because I've literally never seen starvation and dehydration rules in my PHB (edit: or DMG).

Actually, those rules are on page 304 of the DMG.

I wouldn't say that the trail rations describe a specific quantity of "meals", but that it's more like if a character eats a pound of them per day he'll stave off any starvation effects - in fact, the DMG entry says just that. I would assume any of the meals described under "Food, Drink, and Lodging" would have the same effect.


I've heard of houserules that living/eating well (like you aren't a shotgun hobo) grants very small (+1 or 2) save bonuses for 24 hours, scaling with quality of life.

Huh, that's interesting - now I want to try that the next time I run a game. I mean, I think I'd do something like a small, temporary bonus to Fort saves and Str checks.

[Righteous Doggy]

I've only seen it played for laughs.
Player 1: Hey guys, can we eat the bear?
Player 2: How do you want to cook it?
Player 1: at the forge! cook it all at once at the forge!
*player 1 puts points into forgery next level, to learn how to cook a bear at a forge...*

[Slipperychicken]

Huh, that's interesting - now I want to try that the next time I run a game. I mean, I think I'd do something like a small, temporary bonus to Fort saves and Str checks.

Another thing that could work is simply guilt-tripping your players, or imply they'll suffer penalties on social skills for not bathing. Ask something like "okay, who bathed today?", then mention that their characters are stinky bastards who never bathe, so they should at the very least buy some soap.


Additionally, next time they eat trail rations instead of going to an inn, you could narrate that it's stale, smells funny, tastes like rusty water, is about as tough to chew, and about as filling. Their bellies rumble as the smell of fresh meat and potatoes wafts over from a nearby inn, and they remember how long it's been since they've had a decent meal, or even a good drink.

[Verte]

Well yeah, I describe the food anyway, at least when it's from a inn. I guess I never really thought about it partially because in my last group the DM never had trouble getting us to go to a tavern. I think it was because he was just that good at describing them. But I probably should describe trail rations when the PCs camp out or something.

I'd also impose a small penalty to social skills if they don't bother to wash up, as well.

Mostly, I just like the idea of those sort of small perks, even if I wouldn't need them to convince them to eat better food.

[shadow_archmagi]

My group never even bothers with rations because a couple people can make survival checks every now and then and keep the party fed and then the DM is just like "Nuts and berries and a nice rabbit on a spit or something"

[deuxhero]

Ask something like "okay, who bathed today?", then mention that their characters are stinky bastards who never bathe, so they should at the very least least buy some soap.

And the Wizard will, like always, laugh at everyone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm). The Druid and Ranger might as well (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/gk7uKJeF296jRcx1NJw.html).

[Averis Vol]

Yea I give bonuses pretty much everything for a few hours after they eat (depending on the quality of the food). Good food makes you feel good. As for bathing, most commoners smell worse the your average PC who just waded through a river to behead an Orc, so atleast some of the dirt washed off. That being said, soon they're going to meet the king and I'm going to have a good laugh if they don't bathe or prepare properly:smalltongue:.

[ericgrau]

Lemme look at the descriptions. Let's see, eating poor food for more than 5 years could cause weakness from anemia. Uh... ya, don't bother tracking it for PCs except for roleplay flavor (literal flavor). It's too long term. In the short run even the poor meals are relatively nutritionally sound. And now I have a craving for onions.

Whatever houserule you go with I'd make it a penalty rather than a bonus, for all but the most extraordinary meals. With the availability of magic good food is going to become the norm very fast, so unless it's magical (and expensive to match), it shouldn't provide something that normally requires a magic item costing thousands. In any case I'd make the penalty/bonus minor, preferably -1/+1 tops.

[Slipperychicken]

And the Wizard will, like always, laugh at everyone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm)

Prestidigitation: Solving the world's problems, one 1x1ft cube at a time.

[Averis Vol]

Whatever houserule you go with I'd make it a penalty rather than a bonus, for all but the most extraordinary meals. With the availability of magic good food is going to become the norm very fast, so unless it's magical (and expensive to match), it shouldn't provide something that normally requires a magic item costing thousands. In any case I'd make the penalty/bonus minor, preferably -1/+1 tops.

yea magical food, in the description for create food/water, is very bland yet nourishing. emphasis on bland. i figure that at the least, a fresh, well made meal will get your spirits up for a few hours, at least until you get hungry again. though if this were to happen every day the bonus would go away considering the food was the norm now.

[PersonMan]

i figure that at the least, a fresh, well made meal will get your spirits up for a few hours, at least until you get hungry again. though if this were to happen every day the bonus would go away considering the food was the norm now.

Then again, eating a ton of food (which I certainly would want to do if I had just gone months without a good meal) can also make you feel like a nap would be the best idea ever. No, you don't want to stand up, that couch is really comfortable.

[TypoNinja]

1 trail ration = food for 1 day. However.

We've always maintained in my games (both the one I run and the one's I'm a PC) that while trail rations are sustaining, tasty they are not.


"This tastes like chicken."
"So, what's wrong with it?"
"It's Macaroni and Cheese."


Yea, every military movie ever makes fun of how nasty field rations are. So the first thing our parties do when they get back to town is look for real food.

You might still be bleeding when you wander back into town, but a few weeks on trail rations and you might have to think about who to hit first, healers hall or steakhouse.

[Ashtagon]

If you're eating trail rations at the ambassador's ball, that's probably good for a penalty on Diplomacy checks.

[chomskola]

I think a workable houserule (though not everyone wants extra complexity) would be to add or remove percentile fail or win chances based on the food. So if you get an excellent meal you might get 5% chance to recover failed CON based tests, good meals have no bonus or penalty and poor meals impose a 5% fail chance penalty. I.e. after succesful or unsuccessful check you would roll a second percentile dice. I remember playing old book based RPG, and the whole food thing really added to the experience. I am not sure if those percentile rules would be unbalancing. Theyd probably only apply for a limited time like 12 hours or something.

[NavyBlue]

I tend to forget about food and water entirely in my games, unless the players are in a situation where starvation is a plot detail. I usually see it like using the restroom in video games- usually we'd rather get back to the game at hand and not worry too much about the mundane details.

[Water_Bear]

Basically it comes down to roleplaying your character.

I've had PCs who were serious nature-lovers, could care less about social status, and hated luxury. They didn't bathe frequently, never slept in inns, and used Survival to forage for food or ate trail rations.

I've had PCs who were anti-social paranoid wizards, who horded 1-charge wands and spent all of their free time scribing spells into their spellbooks. They used Prestidigitation to clean themselves, slept in extra-dimensional spaces like Rope Trick/Magnificent Mansion, and always wore a Ring of Sustenance.

I've had PCs who were serious playboys, usually Bards and other spontaneous casters (even Psions weirdly) or skill-monkeys. They have multiple pairs of nice clothes and bathe/prestidigitation whenever possible, refuse to sleep in anything but the finest inns, and eat like royalty.

As a DM, you just need to remind players about their options. Describe good food as wholesome and delicious, and Trail Rations like they were year-old MREs. Mention that a poor inn has 'beds' which are piles of insect-infested straw, and mattresses are a luxury of the upper class. Ask your players about their character's bathing habits periodically, and request that they keep track of Soap or Cantrips if they are being used.

[Chained Birds]

I would prefer to follow the Toriko method of eating Rare and/or Dangerous foods will grant the eater permanent benefits. So eating a whole Dragon (At least Adult status) by yourself will grant Resist [X] to Dragon's Breath Weapon Element. I wonder if there is a Force Dragon or something so you can get Resist [X] Force Damage? :smallamused:

As for regular food and drink, I either assume the PCs will have the ability to acquire food on their own (Survival or Spells) or their characters would be smart enough to buy food even without the actual Player specifying such actions.

During low-level, I tend to bring up food as more of a RP thing or to steer the players in a general direction; like a tavern or something. I've never felt like Penalizing the PCs for not eating or drinking, but I will note that their characters probably feel uneasy or less chipper. Maybe increase the DC of illusions based around Food or something minor like that.

[chomskola]

I think bring in in-game effects as long as they are not severe, is a good way to go, yes, I think thats how it will work.

[Crasical]

I've only seen it played for laughs.
Player 1: Hey guys, can we eat the bear?
Player 2: How do you want to cook it?
Player 1: at the forge! cook it all at once at the forge!
*player 1 puts points into forgery next level, to learn how to cook a bear at a forge...*

In my world, many dwarven blacksmiths have a big metal grate somewhere in their workshops that they can lay down over the forge to cook meats for lunch on. It's somewhat popular as a food style in it's own right, and the players sat down to negotiate with an airship pilot in just such an establishment, a big forge that had been converted to a restaurant. It may be just a central texas thing, but they where all very happy that BBQ places existed in some form or another in this fantasy world.

[TuggyNE]

I would prefer to follow the Toriko method of eating Rare and/or Dangerous foods will grant the eater permanent benefits. So eating a whole Dragon (At least Adult status) by yourself will grant Resist [X] to Dragon's Breath Weapon Element. I wonder if there is a Force Dragon or something so you can get Resist [X] Force Damage? :smallamused:

There is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon), but even the wyrmlings are CR 13. (It's probably just as well, honestly. :smalltongue:)

[chomskola]

I think this would be a workable House rule

poor meal: staves off hunger for 1 day instead of 3

common meal: Staves off hunger +1 circumstance bonus on Heal checks

Good meal/banquet/fine wine: staves off hunger, +2 bonus on heal, 12 hour lasting 10% chance that failed Constitution based checks get a re-roll

[chomskola]

I think this would be a workable House rule

poor meal: staves off hunger for 1 day instead of 3

common meal: Staves off hunger +1 circumstance bonus on Heal checks

Good meal/banquet/fine wine: staves off hunger, +2 bonus on heal, 12 hour lasting 10% chance that failed Constitution based checks get a re-roll

[Kerilstrasz]

This is how it played in my campaigns...

common ration: a peace of dry bread,some nuts and or maybe some salt cured meat

enough quantity to feed 1 person for 1 day (meal and dinner) that lacks valuable ingrediends like vitamins etc etc... you can assume that 2 weeks eatting only that keeps your energy up but extended and exclusive usage might lead to scurvy or similar disseases..
this food is disigned to last for months before goes bad.

Poor Meal:Need 2 of these per day to fight hunger,cause its considered to be half a ration.Usually it also lucks vitamins etc etc except if bought at a wealthy town which it may include some vegies &/or herbs.

Common Meal: low callories/energy meal for 1 person (need 2 of these per day to deal with hunger) but provides vitamins through some herbs or vegies it usually contains.. common poor meals are onion or other vegies soups or some commonly found in the area/seasson fruits &/or herbs.
Although if this meal is bought at wealthy towns offen includes meat.

Good Meal: High Energy meal that with some degree of economy plan can sustain you for a full day. Provides vitamins and almost everything the body needs for a day... Usually includes meat,potatoes,season vegies,herbs,fruits and everything a well payed housewife can provide to hers children's table.
A good meal's left overs can be formed into 1 ration that last 2 days at most.

[chomskola]

I have rethought this based on balncing it with expense of items etc. Id now say that

Poor meal: staves off hunger for 1 day instead of 3
Common meal: staves off hunger for 3 days
Banquet: Staves off hunger for 3 days+ 24 hour 10% chance to re-roll failed CON based tests. This is very very minor, but at least you get something for being winded and dined by the local marquis after trudging through a whole jungle.

As for bathing,a nd being filthy, I thing the DMG already implies circumstance bonuses to cover such situations i.e. +2 or - 2 for interactions where outside factors weigh in. The DM should have a fair amount of flexibility in this kind of area if it adds to the atmosphere, RP depth and the players are not averse.

[PersonMan]

What I think is odd is that, in my experience, MREs are actually fine. I mean, it's get kind of dull eating them all the time, but they aren't bad.

So I'd think trail rations' quality would be subjective, too. Some would like them, others wouldn't.

(Also; invisible post bump is funny.)

[willpell]

If you don't intend to entirely ignore food as a not-game-relevant hassle, I think you should go all the way in the other direction. Apply circumstance bonuses and penalties depending on the quality of food people have eaten lately, since if they're surviving on a bread and water diet they'll be bummed out or twitchy with upset, and they won't be able to perform at their peak, while if they've been eating great they'll be in an excellent mood and everything will get their full attention. You might go so far as to affect their Wisdom or Charisma scores temporarily, though that probably requires too much bookkeeping.

[PersonMan]

If you're going for 'food can give lots of bonuses' I'd add a 'you just ate a lot, penalties to physical activity' drawback. It makes sense, after all, otherwise people would just stuff themselves before a big fight.

[ericgrau]

There's no rules for different food because that's way too much detail to get into. And in fact besides being bland there's little quality difference between a poor meal and a good one. In many ways turnips are more nutritious. Minor houserules can make things a little interesting but to say one fills you up for 1 day and the other 3 days, or that one gives concrete numerical bonuses in combat, that's getting a bit ridiculous. A -1 to rolls because you've been eating bread and water for 5 days straight, ok, nice.

The effects of a lifetime of turnips and so on without even a little meat would be negative, but that would literally take years to take effect. Longer than many adventuring careers. As I suggested the turnips & etc. would be better in the short run, and even those in poverty would sometimes get a little meat, eggs or milk which is sufficient. So... like today the poor meals are better overall than eating too rich all the time.

[chomskola]

ITs not exactly realistic. It would be nice to have food have real in game bonuses and maluses. Eating a poor diet wouldnt affect you in one week..but what if you were being chased by monsters, sleeping rough, generally exercising like a pro athlete and generally hanging out at deaths door several times a day, in that case you would burn up too much energy to not have poor meals affect you, and youd certainly be hungry shortly after eating a poor meal.

[nedz]

There was one game I played in a few years back where at the end of the day we would butcher and barbarque the random encounters (after we'd killed them obviously). We were trecking through the wilderness and we kept on being attacked by animals. I reckon we ate most of the animal section in the MM, and a few other magical beasties besides.
We would always ask the DM "So what does this taste like then ?"
The stock answer was "It tastes a bit like chicken".

[Namfuak]

I feel the need to mention that back in medieval times, a "low-quality" meal was usually more nutritionally balanced than what royalty ate. A peasant eating potato, turnip and cabbage stew with a piece of fruit and the odd bit of meat/fish is getting a better meal nutritionally than the noble who eats a ton of meat with fatty/sweet sauces and only cooked vegetables/fruits. Not to mention the noble will tend to drink wine, while the peasant drinks water and occasionally milk.

[Seerow]

I'm pretty sure I've played characters who spent more money on food than on magic items.

[Worira]

ITs not exactly realistic. It would be nice to have food have real in game bonuses and maluses. Eating a poor diet wouldnt affect you in one week..but what if you were being chased by monsters, sleeping rough, generally exercising like a pro athlete and generally hanging out at deaths door several times a day, in that case you would burn up too much energy to not have poor meals affect you, and youd certainly be hungry shortly after eating a poor meal.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that poor meals are less filling. They may not be as tasty, but there's nothing indicating there's less of them.

And Seerow, me too, although in my case it was because he had a custom Vow of Poverty variant that just forbade him from spending money on things that are actually useful to adventuring.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm pretty sure I've played characters who spent more money on food than on magic items.

...How? I could see that if you were either not getting full WBL, or were in a "magic is special/nonexistent, so you can't buy it" campaign.

[willpell]

There's no rules for different food because that's way too much detail to get into.

That's your opinion. Some of us would like that added detail, just as some of us like adding up gear weight and tracking encumbrance, to realistically limit the amount of crap the heroes can haul around "just in case", while others think it's a pointless hassle to track exact weights and will just ad-hoc the character's gear. I have in fact been on both sides of that issue depending on mood, and the same would be true here. If there were super-sophisticated eating rules, I would happily use them sometimes and ignore them other times - but having them exist is a net positive just for the option it gives.


And Seerow, me too, although in my case it was because he had a custom Vow of Poverty variant that just forbade him from spending money on things that are actually useful to adventuring.

That is like the exact opposite of RAI Vow of Poverty. "No you can't have a magic wand of Cure Disease to save the lives of innocent villagers, but if you find a big pile of gold you can spend it eating like royalty?" Remind me to play a Vile villain in your game because clearly the Exalted are the real bad guys of that universe.


Not to mention the noble will tend to drink wine, while the peasant drinks water and occasionally milk.

Yes and the peasant's water comes from the same river he and his neighbors crap in, wash their dishes and do their laundry in, and is fed by rainwater from all the manure-enriched farm fields for a hundred miles around, and the milk isn't pasturized and comes straight from cows that are probably crawling with lice. People drank wine (or beer or rotgut or whatever) any chance they could get in the old days because it was safer; fermentation killed all the germs (or "disease spirits" as they were thought of back then).

[Worira]

That is like the exact opposite of RAI Vow of Poverty. "No you can't have a magic wand of Cure Disease to save the lives of innocent villagers, but if you find a big pile of gold you can spend it eating like royalty?" Remind me to play a Vile villain in your game because clearly the Exalted are the real bad guys of that universe.


Oh snap, so that's why his sheet said "Chaotic Evil". Glad you got that sorted out for me.

[willpell]

Ah, I see, so it was a non-Exalted Vow of Poverty. Unusual, but interesting.

[Sutremaine]

and the milk isn't pasturized and comes straight from cows that are probably crawling with lice.
Nah, it's cool, you can pick the lice out if you don't want the extra protein.

Why would farmers allow their livestock to get that way anyway? Those animals are their livelihood and a major food source, and they can't clean and medicate themselves the way humans can.

[Slipperychicken]

Nah, it's cool, you can pick the lice out if you don't want the extra protein.

Why would farmers allow their livestock to get that way anyway? Those animals are their livelihood and a major food source, and they can't clean and medicate themselves the way humans can.

Because everything in those days was nasty. People in the dark ages didn't know that rats or bugs spread disease. Sticking leeches on your skin ("bleeding") was still a completely viable and accepted cure-all. If you bathed once a week, you were crazy, because no one knew there were benefits to doing so.

Actually, the same diseases which Europeans contracted (and became resistant to) from their livestock were pretty much enough to depopulate the Americas during colonization.

[Seerow]

...How? I could see that if you were either not getting full WBL, or were in a "magic is special/nonexistent, so you can't buy it" campaign.

The character was a connoisseur and glutton. Let's just say some of those meals got pretty expensive. We're talking "I bought the mansion so I could get the cook that came with it" expensive, or "Why on earth are you eating that I could have turned it into a great magic item!" expensive.

Nobody was really taking the campaign too seriously, we were all having a lot of fun and wealth by level in the game was being played fast and loose, so when an opportunity presented itself for something new and interesting to eat, I took it.

[Bouregard]

How about that:

Magical Food Indigestion

Magical nourishment can react in funny ways with your characters biology, magic items and enchantments.

Whenever a character eats or drinks food of magical origin make a DC 10 Constitution check. If you fail roll a d6 to determine the ability that gets lowered by 2 points for 24 hours. The food or drink will not provide any nourishment.

Eating squirrels and nuts may result in diseases found in the forest.



@ Prestidigitation
Yes I'm sure the busty elf maiden would love it when the leecherous old wizard strips her naked and then casts prestigitation for several rounds all over her underwear and body instead of just taking a bath in that river over there... If I play the wizard you can totally bet that I bluff you into thinking Prestigitation is a touch spell.

Note to all DM's: whenever a player says that he doesn't need soap, describe this in as much disturbing detail as possible.

Craft disturbing mental image: successful

[TypoNinja]

There was one game I played in a few years back where at the end of the day we would butcher and barbarque the random encounters (after we'd killed them obviously). We were trecking through the wilderness and we kept on being attacked by animals. I reckon we ate most of the animal section in the MM, and a few other magical beasties besides.
We would always ask the DM "So what does this taste like then ?"
The stock answer was "It tastes a bit like chicken".

Did this with my Fang Dragon as soon as I realized it lists a Fang Dragon's favorite meal as intelligent humanoids. Now my battle cry is basically "LUNCH!".

It's also our go to threat in diplomatic exchanges. "... or we let the dragon eat you."