Kobolds are great because...

[etrpgb]

I would like to make a google-friendly thread about Kobolds.

Cos:
- Bad stats.
- You virtually lose the first level feat in order to be a Dragonwrought.

Good:
- You spell list is augmented with an arcane version of all druid or cleric spells or you get 5 warrior bonus feats just because*.
- If you are old you satisfy the ``Epic character'' requirement for feats.

*thanks to Dragon Archetype from Dragons of Eberron. You have to decide your archetype when you take the Dragonwrought feat.


Other cool things about Kobolds? Share!


Edit, lets remember who they are.

Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, humanoid (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), monter manual pg.161 and Races of the Dragon pg. 39
Aquatic Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Con, small, 30 ft. (swim 30 ft.), sorcerer, humanoid (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood, aquatic), unearthed arcana pg.8
Arctic Kobold: -2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con -2 Wis, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, humanoid (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), unearthed arcana pg.8
Desert Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Wis, small, 30 ft., rogue, humanoid (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), unearthed arcana pg.13
Earth Kobold: -2 Str -2 Con, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, humanoid (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), unearthed arcana pg.17
Jungle Kobold: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Int, small, 30 ft., sorcerer, humanoid (kobold, reptilian, dragonblood), unearthed arcana pg.13

[eggynack]

It's a pretty odd race overall. It ranges from subpar to completely gamebreaking with everything in between. Most of the time it just has mediocre stats, but occasionally, you want to play a progression advanced sorcerer or just destroy the game with pun-pun, and it's the best race in the game. I think there's an alternate version somewhere that gives some actual benefits, so that supplies the middleground.

[Igneel]

Races of the Dragon web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) has some nice things to add to Kobolds such as Slight Build, natural weapons, Weapon Prof./Familiarity, and of course the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage.

Don't forget that the Unearthed Arcana has alternate Enviromental kobolds such as the Desert or Jungle to lessen some stat penalties for various builds.

[Venusaur]

Because of Pun-Pun.

Kobolds with White Dragonspawn make seriously good sorcerers. Tack on Loredrake and win D&D.

[GRM13]

I'm a big fan of kobolds mainly cause people tend to treat them like fooder so enjoy playing that acts much more wise than the rest of the group or feigns ignorance as he is actually quit manipulative and smarter than he is letting on.

[GoatBoy]

Because of this picture:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/098/2/0/Kobold_Bard_by_D_MAC.jpg

Look at him. Just LOOK. You will never be as happy about anything as that kobold is about playing his lute.

[Ravens_cry]

You know, I can't really think of Kobolds as monsters. They are just too gosh darn cute to really feel good about going around murdering them., and they rarely do things that are out and out evil that might require intervention.
They are just . . .there.

[King Atticus]

- You spell list is augmented with an arcane version of all druid or cleric spells or you get 5 warrior bonus feats just because.


Wait...this this is the first I've heard of this, Could someone fill me in on this please.

[Invader]

Can someone point to a list of all the Kobold variants or maybe list the best few for optimizing a sorcerer? Do they all have basically the same stat blocks or are some better than others?

[Gavinfoxx]

Cause you can play a Venerable Loredrake Greater Spellrite Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Abomination Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage!

[demigodus]

Cause you can play a Venerable Loredrake Greater Spellrite Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Abomination Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage!

For those of us that are less educated of the Kobold ways (or at least for my sake), could you list what all of these do, or where they can be found?

And what exactly the collection of all of them together does? Other then give a very long race/class description?

[Invader]

For those of us that are less educated of the Kobold ways (or at least for my sake), could you list what all of these do, or where they can be found?

And what exactly the collection of all of them together does? Other then give a very long race/class description?

I found the race variants here

http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf

[Morph Bark]

Good:
- You spell list is augmented with an arcane version of all druid or cleric spells or you get 5 warrior bonus feats just because.

I'd like to ditto King Atticus: what?

This is the first time I've heard of this. Source and explanation please!

[Invader]

The Dragonwrought feat changes your type to dragon and in the draconomicon a dragon old or older is allowed to take epic feats which lends to some of the cheese. They're also able to get a bunch of other stuff but I'm not totally sure how everything works.

There's also a web enhancement that allows you to take a feat which gives you a +1 caster or sorcerer level I can't remember which.

Also this;
Using the Loredrake Sovereign Archtype, a True Dragon can change their HD from d12s to d10s in exchange for 2 Levels of Sorcerer Casting. Dragonwrought Kobolds (arguably) qualify as True Dragons, as defined by the Draconomicon, so they can have Loredrake applied to them.

After that, you take the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage, which gives you another level of Sorcerer Casting. At this point, you can become a Spellhoarding Dragon, which changes your casting from Sorcerer to Wizard, and probably some other stuff on top of that.

There's some other rite of passage that instead of the caster levels give you 5 martial dragon feats I believe.

[Kane0]

Also: Because Deekin.

[Igneel]

Cause you can play a Venerable Loredrake Greater Spellrite Spellhoarding White Dragonspawn Abomination Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage!

For those of us that are less educated of the Kobold ways (or at least for my sake), could you list what all of these do, or where they can be found?

And what exactly the collection of all of them together does? Other then give a very long race/class description?

Venerable Dragonwrought- Free +3 to mental stats without any physical penalties by using the Dragonwrought feat and aging to Venerable age. Also will be considered 'Great Wyrm' age category.
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage- A ritual that gives you a virtual additional Sorcerer level in exchange for some HP and money.
Spellhoarding- Dragon Magazine Dragon Template that gives additional spellcasting. (if memory serves)
White Dragonspawn Abomination- A Dragonlance Template that can be added to a humanoid race (Abomination is for non-half/human races according to the Bestiary of Kyrnn) that gives good Natural Armor bonus, small breath weapon, minor stat increases (Cha and Con at least), an additional virtual Sorcerer level, and a few other gems for +1 LA.
Desert Kobold- One of the Racial Variants in UA that is considered better then the normal variant.
Loredrake Sovereign Archtype- Eberron-based deity that dragons can emulate through several ways (this being a sorcerer variant) by lowering their HD dice from d12's to d10's for 2 more virtual levels in Sorcerer.

Great Spell Rite I almost mistook for Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, but if memory serves it gives a Sorcerer spell as a SLA. Might be wrong.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because nobody expects the kobold inquisition!

To actually work!

I've heard of adding druid spells to your spell list. I'm not sure how it works. I'm guessing Wyrm of War is the source of five free fighter feats (Jade Dragon: Master of Alliteration!).

Also, it only turns your RHD from d12s to d10s.

[Igneel]

I'd like to ditto King Atticus: what?

This is the first time I've heard of this. Source and explanation please!

Dragons of Eberron, pg #30-31, Sovereign Archtypes section.
Sovereign are several deities in Eberron (if I remember right as I'm not a heavy Eberron user) that dragons try to emulate through several methods pending on the aspect or Archtype they pursue. The different Archtypes include;
(Mind a quick type up without copy&pasta)

Child of Eberron- Learns to speak Druidic, Survival is added to class skill list, can cast spells from druid list as arcane spells.
Flame of the Forge- Craft and Use Magic Device are added to class skill list, effective caster level is increased by two for creating items. When dragon can cast arcane spell of appropriate level, gain bonus spells known from a small list. When reaches caster level of 9th or higher, gains retain essence class feature of artificier.
Fortune's Fang- Bluff and Disguise added to list of class skills. Can cast cleric spells and spells from the Feats, Luck, and Trickery domains as arcane spells.
Guide of the Weak- Diplomacy and Intimidate are added to the list of class skills. Can cast cleric spells and spells from the Community and Protection domains as arcane spells.
Lightkeeper- has divine aura as cleric of caster level. Can take Extra Turning feat even if not meet the prerequisites. Can cast cleric spells and spells from the Glory, Law, Sun, and War domains as arcane spells.
Loredrake- Spellcraft is added to list of class skills. Once has the ability to cast spells, his effective sorcerer level is increased by two. Dragon's racial Hit Dice are reduced to d10's
Master of the Hoard- Appraise, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive are added to the list of class skills. Can cast cleric spells and spells from Charm, Commerce, and Travel domains as arcane spells.
Passion's Flame- Perform is added to the list of the class skills. Can enter a rage a number of times per day equal to a barbarian of her caster level, does not gain access to greater range, tireless rage, or mighty rage features. Can cast cleric spells and spells from the Madness and Passion domains as arcane spells.
Stalking Wyrm- Hide, Move Silently, and Survival are class skills. Receives Track as bonus feat, and can cast spells from Air, Animal and Earth domains as arcane spells. Gains favored enemies as if was a ranger of level equal to sorcerer caster level.
Wyrm of War- Proficient with all simple and material weapons, and all armor (including shields). Wyrm or war recieves bonus feat for every 4 HD he possesses. Can select any Fighter bonus feat, or any combat-style related feat tied to draconic abilities. He must meet the prerequisites for any feats.

A DM using ToB might instead give wyrms of war access to manuevers and stances from Tiger Claw Disciple. Treat dragon's sorcerer level as his initiator level when determining known and readied stances and manuevers. To learn a manuever or stance, a dragon must permanently sacrifice a sorcerer spell slot of the same level.

Traveler- Gains and loses nothing as they belive in staying the way they are.

[Invader]

Loredrake Sovereign Archtype- Eberron-based deity that dragons can emulate through several ways (this being a sorcerer variant) by lowering their HD dice from d12's to d10's for 2 more virtual levels in Sorcerer.


How does this work though. You don't have the d12 hit die to convert so your wouldn't be able to get the benefit would you?

[Igneel]

How does this work though. You don't have the d12 hit die to convert so your wouldn't be able to get the benefit would you?

Which is why I sometimes question the use of the Sovereign Archtypes in at least non-Eberron setting, not to mention the lack of even 1 Racial Hit Die that's a d12. But then again, I'm accused of being a wet blanket when I point out things like this is questionably usable and Dragonspawn have gone through multiple edits.

[Invader]

I'd have to agree with you in this case. I can't really even see an argument for someone actually allowing this.

[Invader]

I looked up the actual description and it states all true dragons are able to follow the sovereign archtype and I have to believe that since it states "true dragons" just having the dragon type isn't good enough.

Half Dragons and dragon turtles among other all have the dragon type but obviously this wouldn't apply them to them either.

[Voyager_I]

The rule states that any D12 racial hit dice the character has received from their Dragon type are converted to D10s, but that is not a stipulation that the character must have racial hit dice to begin with.

It's abusive, certainly, but that doesn't make it illegal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

YOU DARE DEFY ME!?
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/322/f/1/dragon_by_oustins-d4gje6d.jpg
I'm utterly clueless on the subject of dragonwrought's type, but it isn't a matter of whether the DM allows it or not. It's a matter of whether or not it's possible. Some DMs think monks are overpowered, and have a complete kneejerk reaction to ToB and won't allow anything in it. Doesn't mean the rules of D&D prevent you from using ToB.

[Squark]

I looked up the actual description and it states all true dragons are able to follow the sovereign archtype and I have to believe that since it states "true dragons" just having the dragon type isn't good enough.

Half Dragons and dragon turtles among other all have the dragon type but obviously this wouldn't apply them to them either.

I believe the key qualifier is having the 12 age categories like Regular dragons do. Which Kobolds qualify for.

Ultimately, from what I hear, it's technically permissable, but most DMs should hit you with a rolled up newspaper if you try it.

[Invader]

The rule states that any D12 racial hit dice the character has received from their Dragon type are converted to D10s, but that is not a stipulation that the character must have racial hit dice to begin with.

It's abusive, certainly, but that doesn't make it illegal.

That's like saying you can buy a car for all the money in you checking account. It's implied that there is something there to begin with. If you had no money in your account would you still expect to be able to buy the car?

And again it states "True Dragons" not any creature with the dragon type. Even the MM differentiates between the two in the description. "The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures with the dragon subtype) fall into two broad categories...

[Gavinfoxx]

True Dragons are things that:

1.) Are Dragon Type
2.) Have the 12 age categories
3.) Gain power as they age.


Dragonwrought Kobolds are all three, and are thus, True Dragons.

[Invader]

True Dragons are things that:

1.) Are Dragon Type
2.) Have the 12 age categories
3.) Gain power as they age.


Dragonwrought Kobolds are all three, and are thus, True Dragons.

It also says they're winged, are known and feared for their size and range in size from several feet upon hatching to 100 feet which they are not, and thus they are not True Dragons.

They're a dragon type that emulates some true dragon characteristics.

[VGLordR2]

It also says they're winged, are known and feared for their size and range in size from several feet upon hatching to 100 feet which they are not, and thus they are not True Dragons.

They're a dragon type that emulates some true dragon characteristics.

Dragonspawn grants wings.

Also, here is the first definition of "several" (from Dictionary.com):
More than two but not many
Kobolds can be up to 2 and 1/2 feet tall. :smallbiggrin:

[Voyager_I]

That's like saying you can buy a car for all the money in you checking account. It's implied that there is something there to begin with. If you had no money in your account would you still expect to be able to buy the car?

Rules are written for literal interpretations. Unwritten implications and assumptions are worth as much as that empty bank account.


And again it states "True Dragons" not any creature with the dragon type. Even the MM differentiates between the two in the description. "The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures with the dragon subtype) fall into two broad categories...

Dragonwrought Kobolds meet the definition for True Dragons.

I don't see anyone claiming that it's an intended interaction or that it should be taken advantage of in typical games, but that's not exactly a small category.

[Invader]

Dragonspawn grants wings.

Also, here is the first definition of "several" (from Dictionary.com):
Kobolds can be up to 2 and 1/2 feet tall. :smallbiggrin:

That's the size of full grown kobold not the size of one when it hatches.

[Igneel]

True Dragons are things that:

1.) Are Dragon Type
2.) Have the 12 age categories
3.) Gain power as they age.


Dragonwrought Kobolds are all three, and are thus, True Dragons.

1.) Dragon type they get from Dragonwrought, that is a given.
2.) Have the 12 age categories, check as thanks to this entry from Races of the Dragon:



Age
Once hatched, kobolds mature at a breakneck pace, using the same life cycle as dragons, but only living one-tenth as long. By the time a kobold reaches the age of eight or nine (on average), she is mentally and physically able to assist her tribe in any capacity.

Followed by three tables for various age-themed content such as Starting age, Age Categories, and Age Effects.

3) Define gaining power as they age. Do they get Spells as they age for example? No? Only thing they get from age is metal stat boosts which everything gets.

[Invader]

True Dragons are things that:

1.) Are Dragon Type
2.) Have the 12 age categories
3.) Gain power as they age.


Dragonwrought Kobolds are all three, and are thus, True Dragons.

What power do they gain as they age? I'm not arguing that they don't I just don't know.

Edit* Stat increases are a questionable gain in power at best.

[Gavinfoxx]

They not only get stat increases, but they do not accrue penalties to their statistics like other things do.

That is a net gain in power. So they are True Dragons.

[etrpgb]

Wait...this this is the first I've heard of this, Could someone fill me in on this please.

Since you get the dragonwrought a kobold is a real dragon. Then the Kobold follows one of the Dragon Archetypes.
There are many, but ``Child of Eberron'' gives your all the druid spells list, the ``Fortune's Fang'' gives your all the cleric spells (and few domains) list and Warwyrm gives you a Figther feat every 4 levels.
A part of Fortune's Fang there are other similar with different domains, but this is the idea.

Read around page 31 of Dragons of Eberron.

The augmented spell list works wonderfully with Warmages, Beguillers and Dead Necromancers as arcane spellcaster that use spontaneously their whole list.
It is unclear how it works with divine spellcaster that know the whole list like Druid. If I were the DM I would use the same idea of the Rainbow Servant, if the spell is not in your original list you cast it as arcane.


So... starting a new Character?
A warmage (for aggressive spells) jungle kobold dragonwrought (archetype: Fortune's Fang).
You cast spontaneously all the warmage, cleric, travel, luck, trickery spells.
Please, if you want your DM do not ban you... PLEASE do not go with classes like Incantrix.

[King Atticus]

...
Read around page 31 of Dragons of Eberron.
Wow that's awesome. I've never read much Eberron stuff, maybe I should start.


Also, I know it's more fluff than anything too mechanical but, Kobolds can eat just about anything. Grass, bark, rotten meat, bone, wandering gnomes...never pay for a meal again! :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Since you get the dragonwrought a kobold is a real dragon. Then the Kobold follows one of the Dragon Archetypes.
There are many, but ``Child of Eberron'' gives your all the druid spells list, the ``Fortune's Fang'' gives your all the cleric spells (and few domains) list and Warwyrm gives you a Figther feat every 4 levels.
A part of Fortune's Fang there are other similar with different domains, but this is the idea.

Read around page 31 of Dragons of Eberron.

The augmented spell list works wonderfully with Warmages, Beguillers and Dead Necromancers as arcane spellcaster that use spontaneously their whole list.
It is unclear how it works with divine spellcaster that know the whole list like Druid. If I were the DM I would use the same idea of the Rainbow Servant, if the spell is not in your original list you cast it as arcane.


So... starting a new Character?
A warmage (for aggressive spells) jungle kobold dragonwrought (archetype: Fortune's Fang).
You cast spontaneously all the warmage, cleric, travel, luck, trickery spells.
Please, if you want your DM do not ban you... PLEASE do not go with classes like Incantrix.

What.

That's...

what.

[etrpgb]

What.

That's...

what.

What what?

Edit: oh, got it. You are wondering how it works in divine caster that do not know the whole list like Shugenja or Archivist? I would apply the same idea; you can add (to the book or the known spell list) and cast the spell, but you cast it as arcane with relative effects like arcane armor failure.

[Gavinfoxx]

Venerable: PHB / SRD
Loredrake: Dragons of Eberron
Dragonwrought: Races of the Dragon
Spellhoarding: Dragon Magazine #313
White Dragonspawn: Dragonlance Campaign Setting
Dragonspawn Abomination with Magically Talented: Bestiary of Krynn
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
Desert Kobold: Unearthed Arcana / SRD

Anything else I am missing? Would one of the other kobold subraces work better?

[etrpgb]

So lemme see..

Dragonwrought, Races of the Dragon: True Dragon
Venerable, PHB / SRD: +3 all mental stats, no drawbacks. Qualify as Epic character.
Loredrake, Dragons of Eberron: +2 effective sorcerer level
Spellhoarding, Dragon M:tagazine #313 pag 80: Int +2, Wis -4. Ability of keeping spells on himself and two minor free feats. You are a sorcerer under Wizard rules?
White Dragonspawn Dragonlance Campaign Setting: LA+1, but that level count as sorcerer (various other bonuses like +7AC).
Dragonspawn Abomination with Magically Talented, Bestiary of Krynn: +1 effective sorcerer level
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a +1 effective sorcerer level
Desert Kobold, Unearthed Arcana / SRD: -4 Str +2 Dex -2 Wis

[Raimun]

My preliminary inquest into the kobold conundrum revealed that they were best used as a dungeon foot soldiers, serving as archers or perhaps trappers. However, sensing more afoot, I delved deeper into the intricacies of the patterns formed by the typical kobold.

And lo, I discovered that the weaving of kobold scales formed a matrix that resonated with arcane power. That within the mystical sigil that is the kobold, there lay a path taken by few!

For the humble kobold is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!!
Back to you, Sir Greenhilt.

[Dairuga]

There is also that little clause that states "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)", as well as "The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type)".

The Dragonwrought Feat states that "Your type is dragon rather than humanoid". As stated above, you can have the dragon type, and still not be a True Dragon.

The Dragonwrought feat states that you are a dragon, not that you are a true dragon. Of course, one could discuss that "True dragons gain powers as they age, point in case, the kobold gains power as they age, too!", but then you would merely be grasping at straws as to what makes a true dragon

In addition to what makes a true dragon, it is also stated that "They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and magical abilities." Do Kobolds fall under this?
No.

Furthermore: "They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm."

Do Kobolds fit this?
No.

It would be folly to say that, just because they fit the Age Category requirement, and they are the dragon type, they are automatically true dragons when they fail to fulfill the countless other aspects.

Dragonwrought Kobolds do not automatically qualify as True Dragons, and by extension, not the Archetypes or epic level spells at venerable age, either.

QED.

Seriously, am I the only one that loves Kobolds and am playing a Dragonwrought kobold that is 18 years of age / I.E Screw-the-cheese kobolds?

[Hiro Protagonest]

So gem dragons aren't true dragons? They're not included in the MMI with the true dragons. Or force dragons. Or prismatic dragons.

[Dairuga]

So gem dragons aren't true dragons? They're not included in the MMI with the true dragons. Or force dragons. Or prismatic dragons.

Gem Dragons, Force Dragons and Prismatic dragons -are- included as true dragons on quite the few places. And given that you can choose them as your herigate when making Half-dragons, they would indeed fall under the category of "True Dragon".

I hope that answered your question.

[VGLordR2]

You don't have to be a True Dragon to qualify for Epic feats. See Draconomicon, page 66. Also, take a look at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871134/Dragonwrought_Kobold_=_Epic_Feats?pg=1) thread.

[Invader]

You don't have to be a True Dragon to qualify for Epic feats. See Draconomicon, page 66. Also, take a look at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871134/Dragonwrought_Kobold_=_Epic_Feats?pg=1) thread.

I wouldn't disagree with that but there's still no good argument for allowing archetypes.

[Crow]

Because of this picture:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs43/f/2009/098/2/0/Kobold_Bard_by_D_MAC.jpg

Look at him. Just LOOK. You will never be as happy about anything as that kobold is about playing his lute.

Haha, I agree!

[Dairuga]

You don't have to be a True Dragon to qualify for Epic feats. See Draconomicon, page 66. Also, take a look at this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871134/Dragonwrought_Kobold_=_Epic_Feats?pg=1) thread.

Ah yes. That is understandable. I saw that now, so yes; By the wording, all "Dragons" would be able to take epic feats at old age. And as also mentioned, still would not allow archetype abuse.

[Din Riddek]

Ah yes. That is understandable. I saw that now, so yes; By the wording, all "Dragons" would be able to take epic feats at old age. And as also mentioned, still would not allow archetype abuse.

I think the truth of the matter is some people are willing to stretch the rules to their most doubtful, improbable, nonsensical definition to make a (hopefully) theoretical build, rather than interpret rules in a way that makes reasonable sense.

Some things may work on paper, but I'd venture a competent dm would scoff at the notion that a kobold is a true dragon, especially considering the "nets power with age" argument.

[Steward]

I always thought that that was understood! I mean, really, if your DM lets you take epic feats at level 3 or spontaneously cast from three or four spell lists in an actual game then it's either an extremely high-powered game where things like that are acceptable or the DM isn't really paying attention and is going to end up here complaining that one of his players is outshining the others and doesn't understand why.

[T.G. Oskar]

I think the truth of the matter is some people are willing to stretch the rules to their most doubtful, improbable, nonsensical definition to make a (hopefully) theoretical build, rather than interpret rules in a way that makes reasonable sense.

That, good friend, is the core of Theoretical Optimization. Stuff like Pun-Pun, Omnisficer, the Locate City Bomb, the anti-osmium Major Creation nuke, and others, stretch the rules but never break them. Whether what you can do with it is possible in a game is debatable, but only the most daring DMs (or newbie DMs) would agree with that.

That doesn't mean TO is inherently bad; it's just that, theoretical, and a fun mental exercise. It'd be the same as, say, creating an Effigy of any creature, giving it the Soulfused Construct template (which turns the effigy into a living construct), and then allowing it class levels because Soulforged Constructs progress "as class levels". Fun way to make anything from a wolf to a dire lion to a pegasus to a flesh golem take class levels, but is it allowed? It really depends on RAW, and that's what TO looks.

Is it working according to the rules as written? If yes, then it's possible; if no, then it's not possible. That's what TO looks.

Staying on topic: kobolds are pretty awesome for other reasons:
They never forget what you do (particularly if you've had quests in the Stormreach sewers)
Kobolds always hate you (particularly if you fought them in the Stormreach sewers)
They're the best dragonshard miners...if you use incense torches.
They can carry about 5 (promotional) barrels (of joy!) worth of dragonshard; the first gets them on the edge, the second they believe it's a promotion, the third causes them back pain, the fourth makes them question your work ethic, the fifth makes them wish they were dancers.
Kobolds have a mining Union. Yes, they do.
Kobolds have screechy voices that range from adorable to annoying.
Kobolds with levels in sorcerer are downright annoying, particularly if they are far away and shooting Acid Arrows and Lightning Bolts like nobody's business (oh, and Hold Person spells)

...oh, and some other stuff. But why not hear it for yourself (http://soundboards.cubicleninja.com/)?

[Gavinfoxx]

Anyone have any Deekin sound clips??

[etrpgb]

I always thought that that was understood! I mean, really, if your DM lets you take epic feats at level 3 or spontaneously cast from three or four spell lists in an actual game then it's either an extremely high-powered game where things like that are acceptable or the DM isn't really paying attention and is going to end up here complaining that one of his players is outshining the others and doesn't understand why.

Well, in this very forum there is people who see Persist Metamagic as non-cheesy. In a game where Wizard and Samurai are both player classes, I think that a Kobol that does not age and take few unusual feats is the last of the problems. Of course the problem is always the usual: combining. If a Wizard Incantrix is already very strong. A Warmage with the whole Cleric list/Incantrix is even more. But if you go with a Warmage (whole cleric list) 20 I think it is similar.

However it is fun too see how people is trying to hard giving against the Kobolds...


Oh, and how to you arrive to 4 lists? Here is an idea....

A normal kobold caster build might be:
Child Of Eberron (Druid)
7 Warmage (Warmage)
10 Servant of Rainbow (Cleric)
3 Prestige Paladin (Paladin)

Or something other?

[Morph Bark]

What what?

Edit: oh, got it. You are wondering how it works in divine caster that do not know the whole list like Shugenja or Archivist? I would apply the same idea; you can add (to the book or the known spell list) and cast the spell, but you cast it as arcane with relative effects like arcane armor failure.

I was actually stunned by the apparent fact there are ways to give dragons full access to the Cleric and Druid spell lists and free Fighter feats. :smallredface:


A normal kobold caster build might be:
Child Of Eberron (Druid)
7 Warmage (Warmage)
10 Servant of Rainbow (Cleric)
3 Prestige Paladin (Paladin)

Or something other?

Can Child of Eberron and Fortune's Fang be combined? If not, instead of 3 levels PrC Paladin, you could add a level of PrC Bard and PrC Ranger. Loses two caster levels, but therefore still gets access to level 9 spells (Rainbow Servant does not lose caster levels, IIRC). Taking Battle Blessing is a given, of course. It might also be an idea to take Dread Necromancer instead of Warmage and take Southern Magician. That way you can use DMM:Persist a lot, even on your normally-arcane spells.

[Deophaun]

Dragonwrought kobolds are not True Dragons. It's not enough for them to "gain power as they age." They have to actually advance through age categories. All kobolds, even dragonwroughts, advance by character class (contrast the advancement entry on a red dragon to a kobold in the MM: if kobolds were true dragons, the entry would look similar). All that dragonwrought does is remove physical aging penalties. It does not give them age-based advancement. Therefore, they are lesser dragons, even according to the description in the Draconomicon (pg 4).

[Gavinfoxx]

They DO advance through the age categories. There is a chart of their age categories in races of the dragon, great wyrm and all...

[Invader]

An actual quote from the Monster Manual is;
"True Dragons are winged, reptilelike creatures of ancient lineage. They are known and feared for their size, physical prowess, and magical abilities. The oldest dragons are among the most powerful creatures in the world.

The known varieties of true dragons (as opposed to other creatures that have the dragon type) fall into two broad categories: chromatic and metallic. The chromatic dragons are black, blue, green, red, and white; they are all evil and extremely fierce. The metallic dragons are brass, bronze, copper, gold, and silver; they are all good, usually noble, and highly respected by the wise.

All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.) They range in length from several feet upon hatching to more than 100 feet after attaining the status of great wyrm. The size of a particular dragon varies according to age and variety.

A dragon’s metabolism operates like a highly efficient furnace and can metabolize even inorganic material. Some dragons have developed a taste for such fare. "
Now, this is obviously incorrect, I will use two examples. Example one is the White Dragon, a core dragon from the MM that never grows to one hundred feet, they are also not reptilelike because Races of the Dragon states they are warm blooded(page 39). Example two is the lung dragon, who does not have wings, this pretty much eliminates all possibility of this statement being crunch, however there is a similar statement in the Draconomicon that reads
In the D&D game, the term "dragon" encompasses a number of different creatures...True Dragons are those creatures that grow more powerful as they grow older...Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons... this seems to be a crunch statement that supersedes the one in the MM due to being released at a later date. under this statement dragonwrought kobolds are True Dragons, If so they qualify for sovereign archtypes and, if of old or greater age, epic feats.

"They range in length from several feet to more than 100 feet"
It doesn't say they are at least 100 feet.

Also reptilelike doesn't mean reptile.

I could be wrong but in the description of Lung dragons doesn't it state they are based on the western versions of true dragons? And regardless isn't Oriental Adventures a 3.0 book?

What new abilities do kobolds gain as they age?

[Invader]

100 feet falls in the range of several to over 100.

Your quote clearly states they gain MORE abilities not stronger ones.

*Edit Can you point out the updated 3.5 Lung Dragons, I can't find them.

[Morph Bark]

...there is a similar statement in the Draconomicon that reads

In the D&D game, the term "dragon" encompasses a number of different creatures...True Dragons are those creatures that grow more powerful as they grow older...Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons...

this seems to be a crunch statement that supersedes the one in the MM due to being released at a later date. under this statement dragonwrought kobolds are True Dragons, If so they qualify for sovereign archtypes and, if of old or greater age, epic feats.

This would seem to me like this defeats any weak, fluff-text-based arguments. True dragon = dragon with age categories. If that would not be it, then the kobold would be the only dragon that isn't a true dragon that has age categories, all the other dragons that have them being true dragons. Even if it was not explicitly called out in the Draconomicon, I'd say it would stand to reason for this reason that kobolds are also true dragons. Since it is explicitly called out in the Draconomicon, which is prettymuch the prime source for dragons in DnD, it doesn't matter, as under those rules, Dragonwrought kobolds are explicitly true dragons.


IIRC, the OA 3.5 update was in a Dragon magazine.

[Invader]

This would seem to me like this defeats any weak, fluff-text-based arguments. True dragon = dragon with age categories. If that would not be it, then the kobold would be the only dragon that isn't a true dragon that has age categories, all the other dragons that have them being true dragons. Even if it was not explicitly called out in the Draconomicon, I'd say it would stand to reason for this reason that kobolds are also true dragons. Since it is explicitly called out in the Draconomicon, which is prettymuch the prime source for dragons in DnD, it doesn't matter, as under those rules, Dragonwrought kobolds are explicitly true dragons.


IIRC, the OA 3.5 update was in a Dragon magazine.

This doesn't dispute anything in the MM its just less than whats listed so it doesn't override anything.

[Invader]

Just because there are more true dragons than the 10 listed in the MM along with other variants but that doesn't prove your point that kobolds would be just because they follow the age requirements.

[Deophaun]

They DO advance through the age categories. There is a chart of their age categories in races of the dragon, great wyrm and all...
No, while they have age categories, they do not ADVANCE through them. They advance through class levels.

Monsters advance in three ways: class levels, age categories, and size. Just because a human can become Large it does not mean that humans advance through size. Same thing with Kobolds. Just because they can become a Great Wyrm it does not mean that they have advanced through it.

[Invader]

No, while they have age categories, they do not ADVANCE through them. They advance through class levels.

Monsters advance in three ways: class levels, age categories, and size. Just because a human can become Large it does not mean that humans advance through size. Same thing with Kobolds. Just because they can become a Great Wyrm it does not mean that they have advanced through it.

Also this, good point.

[Deophaun]

Since it is explicitly called out in the Draconomicon, which is prettymuch the prime source for dragons in DnD, it doesn't matter, as under those rules, Dragonwrought kobolds are explicitly true dragons.
Ahem, again quoting what you just quoted:

ther creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons...
And if we look at the SRD on kobolds...

Advancement: By character class
This is not ambiguous. Kobolds do not advance through age categories. There is nothing in the dragonwrought feat that changes this. Dragonwrought kobolds are lesser dragons.

BTW, pretty much everything that isn't an outsider or undead has age categories. Dragons simply have move involved ones.

[Invader]

And regardless, my original argument was that kobolds are not eligible to take loredrake sovereign which they're not. The whole true dragon argument was a spin off of why they could take it.

Regardless if they were true dragons or not they still can't take it.

[etrpgb]

Can Child of Eberron and Fortune's Fang be combined? If not, instead of 3 levels PrC Paladin, you could add a level of PrC Bard and PrC Ranger. Loses two caster levels, but therefore still gets access to level 9 spells (Rainbow Servant does not lose caster levels, IIRC). Taking Battle Blessing is a given, of course. It might also be an idea to take Dread Necromancer instead of Warmage and take Southern Magician. That way you can use DMM:Persist a lot, even on your normally-arcane spells.

No, dragons follow only one archetype so Child of Eberron and Fortune's Fang cannot be combined.

PrC Paladin is out of question as I noticed it needs the ability of turning undead to join, maybe it is possible to make another interesting build putting Sacred Exorcist somewhere. But I am not sure how without using ugly early entry tricks. (Eldritch corruption allows to enter Rainbow Servant at level 4, even level 2 if flaws are allowed)

If ugly early tricks and flaws are ok, you can try:
Necropolitan Kobold Child of Eberron
Druid Necromancer/1 Dragonwrought, Eldritch Corruption [Druid list + Necro list]
Rainbow Servant/10 [Cleric list]
Mage of the Arcane Order/7 [A little slow casting, but you get Wizard PHB list]
Prestige Bard/2 [Bard list]

Casting level 19; whole list of Druid, Dread Necromancer, Cleric, Wizard PHB and Bard. And not feat wastage as it would be needed for Prestige Ranger.

Dread Necromancer is surely a more powerful choice, but I usually say Warmage as it is not so exaggerate. I do not think a Warmage 20 with the whole Cleric or Druid list is more powerful than a Druid 20.


But, if you are pointing to maximum power I think accumulating lists is not the best as at the end you cast only one or two spells per round.

Simply decide the list you like more (there is even a thread about this very argument) go with Child of Eberron/Fortune's Fang Beguiller 9/Incantrix 3/Mindbender 1 (Mindsight feat)/Incantrix 7. Decide the other feats with a little care and you do not need other spell lists.