How to make magic slow, yet effective?

[Man on Fire]

I really like Berserk. I was wondering how to make magic in D&D more berserk-like without making it useless. You see, magic in Berserk is very climatic, but slow - wizard goes to the spiritual realm, where he contacts the spirits and allows himself become wessel for one of them, who then does what wizard asked him for. Resident witch, Schierke, can whipe out entire armies but before she get ready she is vunerable to attack so the party must protect her (she can also make some weaker spells, mostly circles protecting from magical creatures). Is it possible to make magic system for D&D like this, yet still make it effective?

[Ernir]

Would require some changes to how actions and initiative work in general to pull off well, I think. "Protecting" someone in 3.5 isn't a well-supported tactical option - AoOs and threatened spaces only go so far.

Simply increasing the casting time of standard action spells to 1 round is an idea that gets thrown around a lot, but I have never heard reports of how well that actually works.

Really long casting times as the rule is a really difficult concept in tabletop gaming, though. It works in fantasy, because the narrative can simply switch to other characters while the spellcaster is slowly chaaaarging up - but at a table, that means the spellcaster's player sits around waiting for a spell to finish casting, while the rest of the group is actually doing something.

EDIT:
Potential fixes to the "spellcaster's player is just standing around" problem:
Combat is abstracted to the point where long casting times fit into a combat "round" anyway. You say the spells you are thinking about include a journey to a spirit realm. Could you make some kind of a sub-game out of that?

[Fable Wright]

So, basically, you want to increase the casting times of higher level spells, while making low-level buffs still active. Not knowing Berserk, I need to ask some questions about how magic works in the setting:
1. Can the spellcaster act while in the spirit realm?
2. How long does it take to charge up the magic? A minute? An hour? Ten seconds?
3. Can any spellcaster cast minor spells without going? Or is it just that the higher level spells that take a journey to the spirit realm to cast?

The best fit I can think of right now is using the Sha'ir class from Dragon magazine compendium. Make it so that spells of 4th level or above dissipate after one minute per spellcaster level, and spells of 7th level or above dissipate after one round per spellcaster level, and you may well have the system you're looking for. You can prepare the lower level spells earlier in the day to use later, but you need to summon higher level spells in an increasingly short time to be able to use them at all. Plus, the character can still act and cast some lower-level spells while the familiar is going on a fetch quest for the high level spell to win combat...

[Starbuck_II]

Really long casting times as the rule is a really difficult concept in tabletop gaming, though. It works in fantasy, because the narrative can simply switch to other characters while the spellcaster is slowly chaaaarging up - but at a table, that means the spellcaster's player sits around waiting for a spell to finish casting, while the rest of the group is actually doing something.


Yeah, no fun while charging.
Unless, you let the spellcasters cast minor effects while charging up.
Like Fireball effect charging lets you shoot out a scorching ray each rd (assuming charging is more than 1 rd casting).
Then the question is how good are the minor effects?

[Eldariel]

This is very easy and one of my preferred "balancing acts" if going down that road; increase casting times. Hell, this has precedence in the past D&D editions; magic was never really as fast as in 3e.

Make the default casting time 1 round instead of 1 standard action and boom, we're in a whole different ballpark. Suddenly all enemies get to act once before the spell goes off making interrupts and such possible (doesn't affect long duration buffing at all, of course).

[Andorax]

Hmm...intersting concept. For a starter, I definately like where DMofDarkness is going with the Sha'ir model (for those of you with actual magazines instead of compendiums, it was in Dragon 315).

I see four potential elements that, combined, could make for a very interesting paradigm shift.

1) Spell acquisition/retrieval similar to the Sha'ir model. You don't memorize all your spells at once, you request them when needed. You can only 'hold' a very limited number of spells at any given time without using or releasing one to acquire another. This prevents pre-loading all of what you need ahead of time. This, or some combination of it and DMofDarkness' dissipation rule. The one modification I'd suggest is that it scales with the caster's level. Rather than flat dissipation rates for 4+s and 7+s, say your "top 2" spell levels decay in rounds, and your "next 3" after that decay in minutes.


2) Holding the Charge. Actually casting a destructive spell takes time, but you can set it up and then 'hold the charge', releasing it when ready. This is similar to how touch spells already work. Cast your Fireball from behind cover, come out with your hands all glowy, then unleash it as a swift/move/standard action.


3) Some measure of acquired/secondary power while 'charging'...borrowing from Starbuck II and the concept of Reserve feats. Allow casters some sort of progression by which they acquire reserve feats, then let them utilize the reserve feats as long as the relevant spell(s) are acquired and held...perhaps even let them utilize them WHILE charging up the spell. If a Fireball takes 3 rounds to cast, but you can fire off mini-fireballs each round while charging it up, you're striking an interesting balance.


4) Borrow from another concept, that of "mindset" spells...spells that grant a bonus to you WHILE they're memorized. For the life of me, I can't find the source this is drawn from (citation needed, please).




So putting it all together (this is just PFA, not balance-tested or thoroughly examined, it just gives an idea of how it would play out in real use).

Arcanist retrieves Charm Person (1st level spell, so he has hours to use it). While he has it retrieved, he gains a +1 bonus to Diplomacy, which he puts to good use to find out where the Duke is today, finally casting the spell on a key guard who has the final details he needs.

Arcanist retrives two Teleport spells (near his max level, so he keeps it only for rounds). He spends 2 rounds casting the first one, warning the party that he will have to start casting the second one within the next 7 rounds or he'll lose it and have to retrieve it all over again.

Teleport goes off, combat begins. Arcanist starts the 2-round casting of Lightning Bolt (which he has had access to for several minutes now). During these two rounds, he fires off smaller lightning blasts at nearby foes from his Storm Bolt reserve feat, which he can access and utilize even while still casting since the spell he's casting is related.

Lightning bolt goes off, and he gets a solid blast in. The big bad guy goes down. He reminds the party they've got to find the missing document quickly, as he is about to start casting the return-teleport.

[Malroth]

Of course a multi round cast fireball would have to be significantly more powerful than the current version which even as a 1 action cast is a highly unoptimized source of damage.

[Fable Wright]

4) Borrow from another concept, that of "mindset" spells...spells that grant a bonus to you WHILE they're memorized. For the life of me, I can't find the source this is drawn from (citation needed, please).


As I recall, there was a fire spell in Dragon Magic that gave you Fire Resistance either 3 or 5 when you memorized it. As an add on for a fairly high level spell.

Also, Malroth, Fireball is still an okay spell, when used against hordes/mooks. However, a multiround casting time is absolutely terrible, and really shouldn't be used. Full round? Maybe, if absolutely necessary. Two rounds for a standard action? No.

[maysarahs]

Just a quick addition to the brainstorm, another problem that arises with long casting times is that combat itself lasts an average of 4 rounds right? Anything that takes longer to cast and most of a casters contribution is obsolete. Why not make all spells take 1, 2, or 3 rounds to manifest, but still take their regular casting time. In exchange I'd give casters a set of repositioning or action denying abilities that can be used quickly and often. That way a caster can lay down his combat ending spell, choose the area, and then spend the next few rounds keeping people in that area or trying to move them there.

[ericgrau]

It would take something quite tremendous. Consider that in 2 rounds you should deal double the damage and so on. And that's why quicken is one of the best feats even though it adds 4 to the spell level. Something like +3 spell levels might be reasonable. I basically took +4 and erred on the side of caution. Or add 2 spell levels at low levels. Letting enemies disrupt the mage by attacking him per normal D&D rules could help further mitigate it. Don't let the boosted level apply to 10 min/level, hour/level and permanent spells that may often be cast out of combat when time is not a factor.

For example a level 2 wizard might cast a fireball that deals 2d6 to all foes in an area. Or he might haste the party but only after part of the fighting is already over. Or fly after the foes have already had a chance to swing at him and the fight will be almost over by the time he actually does something offensive and fights back. No matter how you slice it it's surprisingly minor when you consider that it takes 2 rounds to do.

Don't forget that spells must be cast in a strong voice so that mages don't try to circumvent the time restriction via 2 buffing rounds or surprise. i.e., usually foes will have a round to respond before the spell goes off. You might want to add to the casting display to make it harder to hide it and get around this.