Swift Action Attacks?

[Getsugaru]

As the title implies, is there any way to make an attack with a swift action? Or maybe as part of a move action? If there is, I'd like to know, especially since I am having no luck at the moment due to testing...:smallannoyed:...

[Shade Kerrin]

For sorcerers, the Draconic Claw Heritage feat. Gives you a claw natural attack, and allows you to make a claw attack as a swift action after casting a standard action spell. Complete Arcane, reprinted in Races of the Dragon
A Quickened Snake's swiftness(drd 1/sorc2, actually 5/6) will take a swift action on your part to give a free action attack to an ally(you count as an ally to yourself), while quickening the mass version(drd2/sorc3, actually 6/7) will let your friends join in on the fun. The spell doesn't stack with Haste, though. Spell Compendium
Bracers of Quick strike and Bracers of Blinding Strike offer an extra attack, but require you to have made a full attack that round, and don't stack with anything else that gives extra attacks, including feats like Rapid Shot. Magic Item compendium
Belt of Battle from the same source allows you to spend charges as a swift action to get an extra Move, Standard or even Full round action.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head

[Namfuak]

As the title implies, is there any way to make an attack with a swift action? Or maybe as part of a move action? If there is, I'd like to know, especially since I am having no luck at the moment due to testing...:smallannoyed:...

If what you want to do is try to move and full attack at the same time, you can use travel devotion. Many maneuvers in Tome of Battle are swift actions, but usually aren't attacks in themselves (rather they power up your regular attack).

[Keld Denar]

Dancing/Raging Mongoose are swift action attacks. If you cast a quickened spell like Whirling Blade, that also allows you to make swift action attacks.

[Boci]

(you count as an ally to yourself)

Was that ever clarified in 3.5?

[mattie_p]

Was that ever clarified in 3.5?

Yes. From the D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=):


Ally - A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.

In other words, ally includes yourself, except where it explicitly does not.

[Lostbutseeking]

Yes. From the D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ally&alpha=):



In other words, ally includes yourself, except where it explicitly does not.

And when your DM beats you to death for trying to use White Raven Tactics on yourself.

[Psyren]

ToB and Psionics are the best ways to turn the melee action economy into clay in your hands. What class are you using?

[mattie_p]

And when your DM beats you to death for trying to use White Raven Tactics on yourself.

I can't help it that "ally" has been a reserved and defined keyword in D&D since the PHB was published, ToB came out, what, 3 years later? They could easily have mentioned that for the purposes of maneuvers/whatever, ally does not include the initiator. They did not. Besides, melee needs more nice things.

Compare to a wizard who can cast a quickened spell and in the same round cast another spell. Is using white raven tactics on yourself really going to affect the outcome that much? And I do note that almost all of the listed methods to gain a swift action attack involve magic or psionics.

[DarkEternal]

There is also a feat from Dragonlance called Heroic Surge. It basically gives you an extra standard or move action once per day at first four levels, twice a day second four levels and so on.

[Douglas]

Dancing/Raging Mongoose are swift action attacks.
Those maneuvers do not let you attack as part of the maneuver. They give you a short term buff that grants additional attacks. Actually using those attacks requires making a full attack, just as with Haste, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any other source of bonus attacks.

[Downysole]

Celerity the spell also. I believe that's even an immediate action.

[Downysole]

Celerity the spell also. I believe that's even an immediate action.

[Treblain]

You could combine Dimension Hop or another swift action teleport with the Sun School tactical feat to get a free attack.

[ThiagoMartell]

Quickened eldritch blast, hideous blow or eldritch glaw.
Well, any touch attack quickened spell, really.

[Getsugaru]

ToB and Psionics are the best ways to turn the melee action economy into clay in your hands. What class are you using?

At the moment, the class build looks like this:

Warblade 1/ Swordsage 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Master of the Nine X/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 7

As you probably guessed, the reason I'm looking for "Swift Action Attacks" is because of the vindicator's 7th.

[Curmudgeon]

There is also a feat from Dragonlance called Heroic Surge. It basically gives you an extra standard or move action once per day at first four levels, twice a day second four levels and so on.
Note that's a 3rd party source (Margaret Weis Productions). There's overlap only in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (published by Wizards of the Coast). Heroic Surge isn't approved for D&D, only for Dragonlance.

[ThiagoMartell]

Note that's a 3rd party source (Margaret Weis Productions). There's overlap only in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (published by Wizards of the Coast). Heroic Surge isn't approved for D&D, only for Dragonlance.

Isn't there an Eberron version of Heroic Surge? (It all started in d20 Modern...)

[MeeposFire]

Those maneuvers do not let you attack as part of the maneuver. They give you a short term buff that grants additional attacks. Actually using those attacks requires making a full attack, just as with Haste, Two-Weapon Fighting, and any other source of bonus attacks.

Common misconception. It says you make additional attacks with your weapons which costs a swift action with no stipulation on it needing a full attack action. Do note if you try to use the sentence saying only full attacks grant additional attacks then note that feats and abilities like bounding assault (the feat) and wolf fang strike do not work at all since neither of those mention the full attack rule and all of these abilities are expected to grant multiple attacks. All use the same basic language of "spend this action and you get X attacks" (with some having a penalty and some like the mongoose line require certain conditions to be met like making an attack) and none use any language to specifically contradict or mention the full attack rules.

[Douglas]

On the contrary, the wording of each of those is different in significant ways.

Bounding Assault:

While using an attack action with the Spring Attack feat, you can make a second attack with a -5 penalty.
This explicitly refers to a specific non-full attack and therefore overrides the general rule.

Wolf Fang Strike:

Range: Melee attack
Target: One creature
As part of this maneuver, you make an attack with both weapons you wield against one opponent.
This maneuver is a special attack. You use it, and as part of the maneuver you make two attacks, completely independent of the full attack rules.

Dancing Mongoose:

Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield.
This maneuver is a self buff. You use it, and nothing happens. It grants you a bonus for later use. That bonus is additional attacks, which must follow the general rules for additional attacks, which require the use of a full attack.

Feats, spells, maneuvers, and special abilities that are attacks in their own right effectively bypass the full attack rules and can grant multiple attacks without having to override them. Feats, spells, maneuvers, and special abilities that modify the target's capabilities by granting bonus attacks do not bypass the full attack rules and therefore require a full attack to use unless they specifically state otherwise. Dancing/Raging Mongoose is in the latter category.

[Andorax]

Isn't there an Eberron version of Heroic Surge? (It all started in d20 Modern...)

Yes. Action Surge (feat) lets you spend 2 action points to get another standard action.

[MeeposFire]

On the contrary, the wording of each of those is different in significant ways.

Bounding Assault:

This explicitly refers to a specific non-full attack and therefore overrides the general rule.

Wolf Fang Strike:

This maneuver is a special attack. You use it, and as part of the maneuver you make two attacks, completely independent of the full attack rules.

Dancing Mongoose:

This maneuver is a self buff. You use it, and nothing happens. It grants you a bonus for later use. That bonus is additional attacks, which must follow the general rules for additional attacks, which require the use of a full attack.

Feats, spells, maneuvers, and special abilities that are attacks in their own right effectively bypass the full attack rules and can grant multiple attacks without having to override them. Feats, spells, maneuvers, and special abilities that modify the target's capabilities by granting bonus attacks do not bypass the full attack rules and therefore require a full attack to use unless they specifically state otherwise. Dancing/Raging Mongoose is in the latter category.

Nope you are being completely arbitrary.

Wolf fang strike gives you what it does because it says you get to do this because you spent that action and that maneuver. You put an artificial distinction between the two as I am handling the mongoose line exactly the same way. I am saying that a maneuver does exactly what it says.

For instance you say that the bounding assault is allowed to give additional attacks because the feat says so except nowhere in the feat does it say that it overrides the general rule you mention. This either proves that the feat is not functional (because it does not specifically call out that it overrides the general rule) or that it is not necessary to call out the general rule if the ability itself says you get additional attacks under some trigger (in this case spring attack).

In this way the mongoose line is similar in that it gives additional attacks without mentioning the general rules on additional attacks just like bounding assault. Just like bounding assault the mongoose line gives additional attacks off of a trigger in this case making an attack which oddly they do not specify full attack (which they normally do like the monk's flurry) but use the much more general term of "attack" which coincidentally they define on page 39 of the TOB.

You can also find other abilities that fail to work due to that general rule if you apply it so such as eldritch glaive. It allows you to make additional attacks at a rate derived from your BAB without using a full attack but once again nothing is mentioned about the general rule.

Did I make an attack? If yes I can use the boost. If I use the boost then it says I make additional attacks so I must make them just like I must do exactly what wolf fang strike says to do because the maneuver says to do it.

EDIT: Also realize that spring attack runs off the attack action so bounding assault allows for additional attacks off of a standard action, the attack action, without specifically saying that it overrides the general rule.

[Douglas]

Nope you are being completely arbitrary.
No, I am not. There is clear unambiguous logic behind the categorization of each ability. Specifically, this:

Feats, spells, maneuvers, and special abilities that are attacks in their own right effectively bypass the full attack rules and can grant multiple attacks without having to override them. Feats, spells, maneuvers, and special abilities that modify the target's capabilities by granting bonus attacks do not bypass the full attack rules and therefore require a full attack to use unless they specifically state otherwise. Dancing/Raging Mongoose is in the latter category.

It is very much akin to the difference between casting Whirling Blade and casting Haste. The former is an attack (or several), the latter grants an extra attack. I realize Haste specifically calls out a requirement for full attacks, but that is strictly speaking an unnecessary clarification since the general rule already covers it.


Wolf fang strike gives you what it does because it says you get to do this because you spent that action and that maneuver. You put an artificial distinction between the two as I am handling the mongoose line exactly the same way. I am saying that a maneuver does exactly what it says.
Wolf Fang Strike says "spend action, make 2 attacks". Dancing Mongoose says "spend action, gain ability to make extra attacks later". That is a significant difference.


For instance you say that the bounding assault is allowed to give additional attacks because the feat says so except nowhere in the feat does it say that it overrides the general rule you mention. This either proves that the feat is not functional (because it does not specifically call out that it overrides the general rule) or that it is not necessary to call out the general rule if the ability itself says you get additional attacks under some trigger (in this case spring attack).
Calling out the trigger is sufficient. The Mongoose maneuvers do not mention any trigger.


In this way the mongoose line is similar in that it gives additional attacks without mentioning the general rules on additional attacks just like bounding assault. Just like bounding assault the mongoose line gives additional attacks off of a trigger in this case making an attack which oddly they do not specify full attack (which they normally do like the monk's flurry) but use the much more general term of "attack" which coincidentally they define on page 39 of the TOB.
Bounding Assault gives an additional attack in the specific case of making an attack with Spring Attack. This is calling out a specific non-full-attack situation, and that is every bit as much of an override of the full attack rule as directly referencing it would be.

The Mongoose maneuvers give additional attacks with no stated trigger at all. They do not give additional attacks "when you attack", they give additional attacks period. That total lack of extra specifics means the general rule applies.


You can also find other abilities that fail to work due to that general rule if you apply it so such as eldritch glaive. It allows you to make additional attacks at a rate derived from your BAB without using a full attack but once again nothing is mentioned about the general rule.
Eldritch Glaive falls squarely on the "is an attack" side of the distinction. You use the invocation, and as part of the invocation you make multiple attacks. If it were a buff spell instead it would require a full attack, but it isn't.


Did I make an attack? If yes I can use the boost. If I use the boost then it says I make additional attacks so I must make them just like I must do exactly what wolf fang strike says to do because the maneuver says to do it.
Wolf Fang Strike says "make two attacks". Dancing Mongoose says "gain two additional attacks". In game mechanics terms, when you use WFS you immediately attack twice, but when you use Dancing Mongoose you increase your attacks per round counter by 2. That is the critical difference between "make an attack" wording and "gain extra attacks" wording, and the latter's use of the number of attacks per round counter means a full attack is required to benefit.


EDIT: Also realize that spring attack runs off the attack action so bounding assault allows for additional attacks off of a standard action, the attack action, without specifically saying that it overrides the general rule.
It is not necessary to mention a rule in order to override it. Stating a more specific rule that cannot be compatible with it also does the trick, and every last one of the examples you have presented does so.

[Person_Man]

At the moment, the class build looks like this:

Warblade 1/ Swordsage 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Master of the Nine X/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 7

As you probably guessed, the reason I'm looking for "Swift Action Attacks" is because of the vindicator's 7th.

Ah. Well, if you're just looking for extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) or extra actions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), there are lots of other ways that don't involve burning Turn Undead uses.

[Fable Wright]

If you're not looking for melee attacks, consider Ordained Champion for a few levels. Eventually, you can use Flamestrike as a swift action. Proceed to nuke battlefield.

[Zaq]

Looks like I've gotta, because no one else will.

In the same vein as Quickened Snake's Swiftness, Quickened Temporal Twist will let you (or a buddy) make an attack, and since it's Quickened, it's a swift action. Doesn't stack with Haste.

[ThiagoMartell]

Looks like I've gotta, because no one else will.

In the same vein as Quickened Snake's Swiftness, Quickened Temporal Twist will let you (or a buddy) make an attack, and since it's Quickened, it's a swift action. Doesn't stack with Haste.

Well, that is your thing, isn't it? :smallwink:

[Roguenewb]

Yup, its true, your melee build needs more truenamer =P

I think people have hit most of the good ones. There are a couple of fighter rebuilds drifting around on this forum that let you make swift or immediate attacks as class features.

[Getsugaru]

Ah. Well, if you're just looking for extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) or extra actions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), there are lots of other ways that don't involve burning Turn Undead uses.
Probably forgot to meantion, I've got Travel Devotion.:smallwink:

If you're not looking for melee attacks, consider Ordained Champion for a few levels. Eventually, you can use Flamestrike as a swift action. Proceed to nuke battlefield.
No, it doesn't need to be an extra attack; it just needs to be an attack/damaging action that only needs a swift action.

Also, can you please explain what you meant by Flamestrike as a swift action for field nukage?

[Fable Wright]

Probably forgot to meantion, I've got Travel Devotion.:smallwink:

No, it doesn't need to be an extra attack; it just needs to be an attack/damaging action that only needs a swift action.

Also, can you please explain what you meant by Flamestrike as a swift action for field nukage?

Well, since you have Ruby Knight Vindicator, you have a ton of Swift actions to throw around. Ordained Champion lets you spontaneously cast Flamestrike with a Swift action casting time. You can, over the course of one turn, burn all of the Turn/Rebuke Undead uses and higher level spell slots on casting Flamestrike in one round, killing just about anything that you want dead, or just nuking the battlefield.

[Douglas]

No, it doesn't need to be an extra attack; it just needs to be an attack/damaging action that only needs a swift action.

Also, can you please explain what you meant by Flamestrike as a swift action for field nukage?
4 levels of Ordained Champion lets you cast any War domain spell as a swift action, effectively Quickened for free, with no limit on uses per day. Flame Strike is a War domain spell. Combine this with what you've already got, and you can cast as many Flame Strikes as your spell slots and turn attempts allow in one round.

[only1doug]

At the moment, the class build looks like this:

Warblade 1/ Swordsage 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1/ Master of the Nine X/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 7

As you probably guessed, the reason I'm looking for "Swift Action Attacks" is because of the vindicator's 7th.

That build is missing some base class, perhaps 2 levels of Crusader :P