PF Feat Tree Question

[Barstro]

In looking at feats I might like for a character, I saw the following.

Feat A; requires more Intelligence than I will ever have naturally
Feat B; requires same amount of Int, and Feat A
Feat C; only requires Feat B

I have no desire to ever actually use Feat A or Feat B. Is it possible to use magic, etc to get the needed amount of Intelligence for a limited time to get the first two feats, and then simply use Feat C after those items/spells are gone? Or does that violate RAW/RAI?

[grarrrg]

In looking at feats I might like for a character, I saw the following.

Feat A; requires more Intelligence than I will ever have naturally
Feat B; requires same amount of Int, and Feat A
Feat C; only requires Feat B

I have no desire to ever actually use Feat A or Feat B. Is it possible to use magic, etc to get the needed amount of Intelligence for a limited time to get the first two feats, and then simply use Feat C after those items/spells are gone? Or does that violate RAW/RAI?

It is possible to do what you seek.
Ability Scores:

Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Feats:

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

Also, you may also want to check Ranger Combat Styles, and Monk+Archetypes, as they both allow you a selection of "no prerequisite" bonus feats.

Also also, check out the "Class Dipping" guide in my Signature, go down to the 3rd post, there's a listing of what classes give out which feats for free.

[Barstro]

Thanks. I knew those rules, but I wasn't sure about those rules related to this.

Feat C requires Feat B to take it. If I no longer meet the requirements for Feat B, I cannot use it. But you agree with me that I still technically possess that feat, and can use Feat C because I possess a Feat I cannot use?


Also, you may also want to check Ranger Combat Styles, and Monk+Archetypes, as they both allow you a selection of "no prerequisite" bonus feats.


Pretty sure my eidolon cannot dip. :smallwink:

[deuxhero]

What feats are they? Only melee feats with int requirements I know off hand are Kirin style and Combat Expertise.

[togapika]

If you don't meet the prereqs, you can't use the feat.
If a prereq of feat C is feat B, then when you no longer qualify for feat B, you can no longer use feat C.

[grarrrg]

If you don't meet the prereqs, you can't use the feat.
If a prereq of feat C is feat B, then when you no longer qualify for feat B, you can no longer use feat C.

Emphasis added:

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

So he does Shenanigans, qualifies for and takes feats A and B.
Now, regardless of if he still qualifies for A or B, he still has them, and they can count as pre-req's for feat C.
The only catch is if C references having to USE A or B in some way.


I am also quite curious what is worth 3 feats that he wants his Eidolon to have.
Although, qualifying for "stat" feats is MUCH easier with a decent level Eidolon, as EACH LEVEL you can screw with their evolutions/stats (Int 15 today > level-up > dump as a brick).

[Mari01]

How does losing the ability to use a prereq not count as losing the prereq itself?

[grarrrg]

How does losing the ability to use a prereq not count as losing the prereq itself?

A wizard did it.

[Barstro]

What feats are they? Only melee feats with int requirements I know off hand are Kirin style and Combat Expertise.

Not sure the specific example really matters, but here you go;
These are from the SRD, so maybe some language didn't get on there.

Combat Expertise (Combat)
You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.

Prerequisite: Int 13.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every +4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the dodge bonus increases by +1. You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. The effects of this feat last until your next turn.

I would never use this.


Improved Trip (Combat)
You are skilled at sending your opponents to the ground.

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to trip you

I like the +2, but can live without it.


Fury's Fall (Combat)
Paizo Peripheral

You can use Strength and agility to send foes crashing to the ground.

Prerequisites: Improved Trip.

Benefit: When making a trip attack, add your Dexterity bonus to your CMB.

Note that the ONLY prerequisite is to have Improved Trip.

Since the Eidolon has decent Dex, Dex goes up every few levels, and I have other reasons to add Dex enhancements, this Dex bonus can get quite high.





If you don't meet the prereqs, you can't use the feat.
If a prereq of feat C is feat B, then when you no longer qualify for feat B, you can no longer use feat C.

How does losing the ability to use a prereq not count as losing the prereq itself?

I agree with your logic, but Pathfinder has only two paragraphs that I know of for prerequisites;

Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

Fury's Fall does not require that I use Improved Trip, it doesn't even require that I use Combat Expertise for the attack.

Contrast with this one, that requires you to use the underlying Feat;

Cornugon Smash (Combat)
Your terrible attacks strike fear into your enemies.

Paizo Peripheral

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Intimidate 6 ranks.

Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.

By RAW;
To take (and use) Fury's Fall, I only need to possess Improved Trip
Even though I lost the prerequisite for Improved Trip, I did not lose the Feat itself.

If the SRD is missing a prerequisite, or if there is language somewhere that says "a prerequisite for any Feat includes all prerequisites for other Feats in the same Tree", then this works by RAW. I also think that this fair because the Feat relies on Dex. I see no reason why Int is a prerequisite.

But it would be hard to argue with a DM who ruled otherwise.

As I said this is mostly academic. I can probably find better things to spend three Feats on.

[Cieyrin]

...I don't understand wanting Fury's Fall and not wanting to use Improved Trip, unless you're using the Trip evolution, which I assume is the point. For an Eidolon, focusing on Str and size is probably more efficient, given the bonuses Large and Huge Evolution give compared to the potential Fury's Fall and probably Agile Maneuvers for double Dex to CMB. But hey, your character (and minion), do what you want to try to exploit this.

[Barstro]

...I don't understand wanting Fury's Fall and not wanting to use Improved Trip, unless you're using the Trip evolution, which I assume is the point. For an Eidolon, focusing on Str and size is probably more efficient, given the bonuses Large and Huge Evolution give compared to the potential Fury's Fall and probably Agile Maneuvers for double Dex to CMB. But hey, your character (and minion), do what you want to try to exploit this.

I'm not against Improved Trip. Its bonus just isn't important enough for me to keep +6 Int on the Eidolon.

Yes, I would be using the Trip evolution and other things to get 4+ Trip checks each round. I agree that STR is more important, but this would be a way to add a "free" +10 or so to those Trip checks.

Again, I'm more interested in the rules opinion than in actually thinking this is the best way to get bonuses to Trip.