Wiz 3rd level spells, next feat Suggestions

[Fineous Orlon]

Currently Carmendine Monk 2/ Wizard [Diviner] 4 [banned enchantment]

What 3rd level spells should I pick at level up to Wiz 5 in a campaign where I am unlikely to get ANY spells other than those earned at level up, or cribbed from another Wiz who is a little behind me [MystTheurge]?

My most used spells to date are Mage Armor, grease, glitterdust, hail of stone.

My feats include Weapon Finesse, a PF feat including the 2-level Practiced Spellcaster-lite trait, and extend spell.

I am considering Extend[edit] Heighten Spell as my next feat to elevate the DCs on Glitterdust and grease, or sculpt spell to make either more effective. Those two feat choices might make it less needful to choose higher level AoE spells. I am also considering one of the reserve feats, like the electrical or fire one to use after I do a crowd control spell, but stay involved in the encounter without endangering myself overmuch.

I am considering going to Abjurant Champ, so Combat Casting is also in my future.

[Zonugal]

Hey!

First, could you tell us what books/resources are available to you? Just sop we know what we can suggest.

Secondly, could you post your spell-list/spell-book? This is so we don't recommend anything redundant and also to sort of see what is missing/needed.

Thirdly, what type of character are you playing? Are they one to jump into combat or stand outside of it a bit while summoning? This will allow us to customize our suggestions to your play-style.

[Glimbur]

Depending on what the other characters in the party are like, you might get a lot of mileage out of haste. It's one of my favorite third level spells. Depending on the campaign, Dispel Magic can be very useful. Not sure I would pick it as one of my first 3rd level spells though. Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud both help you chop up encounters, stinking cloud has the bonus of fort save or nausea which means no actions.

It's probably not worth taking Extra Spell just to get another spell, but it's an option. If you have the Wis, Arcane Disciple might get you more spells. Improved initiative is never bad, but it is kind of bland.

[deuxhero]

Don't take Combat Casting naturally, take the 0th level (Spellblade from CW) instead.

[Fineous Orlon]

Don't take Combat Casting naturally, take the 0th level (Spellblade from CW) instead.

I am not familiar with this, I am sorry. Could you give me a bit more info? Does sound like Complete Warrior.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think there's any substitute for Combat Casting when it comes to prerequisites, other than tasteful houserules.

I'd highly recommend the Fractional BAB variant detailed in UA p73 for this character.

Consider retraining your second Monk level to Enlightened Fist, rules for retraining class levels are given in PH2 p197-198. That would put your character at Monk 1/ Wizard 4/ Enlightened Fist 1, and not much at all about your character would change other than you'd be ready to start taking more Enlightened Fist without losing an additional level of spellcasting. As long as you take Combat Casting at 6th level and then retrain, you should be fine. I wouldn't take more than five Enlightened Fist levels, and grab Abjurant Champion asap. Also consider dipping two levels of Paragnostic Apostle (CC) for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness.

Your 3rd level spells should probably be Stinking Cloud or Haste, plus a divination spell such as Unluck (SpC). If you get Enlightened Fist you should probably pick a strong melee touch spell such as Shivering Touch from Frostburn (it's too strong as printed, suggest a Fort save for half damage) or Vampiric Touch. Get a Lesser Rod of Maximize to use with either of those, and a few Lesser Rods of Extend for your buffs and crowd controls.

[deuxhero]

Sorry, "Spellblade" was ommited there.

It's a 1 10 level prc in I think Complete Warrior. Being very front loaded (1 BAB, 1 casting progression, -10 ASF and) with easier qualifications and flowing very well into Abjurant Champion and gets called the 0th level of that class as a result. I thought it gave Combat Casting as a bonus feat as well, but it seems I was mistaken.

[Fineous Orlon]

Hey!

First, could you tell us what books/resources are available to you? Just sop we know what we can suggest.

Thank you, sure.

Primary availability is Core, + SpellComp, and a lot of the Completes, probably available stuff would include other 3.5 stuff [RotD, UnArc, some ForgRealms] but no ToB:Bo9S.


Secondly, could you post your spell-list/spell-book? This is so we don't recommend anything redundant and also to sort of see what is missing/needed.

3rd level: [Blink from a scroll]

2nd level: Rope Trick, Glitterdust, False Life, Det Invis, [Locate Object from a scroll]

1st Level: Hail of Stone, Identify, Mage Armor, Corrosive Grasp, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Ebon Eyes [Jump and Sleep from a scroll]

I listed [from a scroll] to show what I did not pick.



Thirdly, what type of character are you playing? Are they one to jump into combat or stand outside of it a bit while summoning? This will allow us to customize our suggestions to your play-style.

Str10/Dex16/Con14/Int19[21 item]/Wis10/Char8

I also have Weapon Finesse.

The Carmendine Monk levels were first, and I fought or used a sling, and even won an unarmed combat tournament right after I picked up WF.

Usually, I do a bit of Greasy/Glittery crowd control and then follow up with a wand of magic missile or crossbow, adding a hail of stone if needed or the AoE is too hard to resist. I really try to stay out of the way. I avoid hand to hand combat at this point, for which the party and DM have ribbed me as a tournament champion. If I have to fight, I add Shield if I have the time, and act to provide flanking while doing a flurry [because the flanking I provide is more help than any flurry results, usually].

I am trying to keep the spotlight away so 1 or 2 new players can have fun, and to fade into the background a bit. In our last campaign, I trashed a lot of monsters as a 2WF Swashbuckler/ Archivist. The DM is ...cautious about my choices.

I have not yet used the corrosive grasp spell. There is rarely time to cast it, or enough slots after other priorities.

[deuxhero]

Really the only thing ToB being banned does for you (the melee members are hosed though) is make Heroics less (but still VERY) awesome when you can't use it to give Martial Study/Stance.

[Righteous Doggy]

Really the only thing ToB being banned does for you (the melee members are hosed though) is make Heroics less (but still VERY) awesome when you can't use it to give Martial Study/Stance.

Also sets you a few steps apart from your melee friends... depending on their optomization of course, but their versatality might suffer and they'll need to enjoy your magical goodness a bit more.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry, "Spellblade" was ommited there.

It's a 1 10 level prc in I think Complete Warrior. Being very front loaded (1 BAB, 1 casting progression, -10 ASF and) with easier qualifications and flowing very well into Abjurant Champion and gets called the 0th level of that class as a result. I thought it gave Combat Casting as a bonus feat as well, but it seems I was mistaken.

Spellsword has a pesky prerequisite of proficiency in all martial weapons and all types of armor, which this character probably won't ever meet. It typically is good to enter just prior to Abjurant Champion, but not suitable for a Monk/Wizard.

[WinWin]

Heart of Water from Complete Mage is a good choice.

The swimming/water breathing bonuses are of situational use. Being able to 'expend' the spell in order to gain the effect of Freedom of Movement, is a very handy ability, especially when combined with a Monks mobility.

[dspeyer]

Really the only thing ToB being banned does for you (the melee members are hosed though) is make Heroics less (but still VERY) awesome when you can't use it to give Martial Study/Stance.

Not even that with enchantment banned (which is a shame here, because Hold Person is awesome).

That aside, there are three spells that come to mind for third level:
Haste: a powerful buff any violent character (and to some extent nonviolent) will enjoy and which you can share with the entire team to keep you from overshadowing.
Fly: adding a third dimension to fights can be a complete game-changer
Stinking Cloud: a good way to destroy an entire army. Usually a top pick, but less so since you already have glitterdust and limited spell access.


You probably want a divination spell too or else your specialist slot will go to waste. There aren't a ton of options. Tongues can be powerful or useless depending on your world. Clairvoyance can be nifty. There's something to be said for silenced detect thoughts if you have to deal with a lot of deception.

[ericgrau]

Haste, fireball, sleet storm.
Spell compendium adds scintilating sphere and mass snake's swiftness.

Other spells aren't as generally useful, and it SUCKS not being able to use a spell in a certain encounter. It doubly sucks when your only alternatives are 2nd level spells. Once you get to higher levels you might consider other spells, but for now I wouldn't even pick the "all stars" that are too specific.

For divination there isn't much. Spell compendium has lesser telepathic bond, but it's not much better than the Player's Handbook options.

I'd wait until level 9+ to get heighten, if ever. Spell focus and greater is better for now because it doesn't use a higher level slot where you may have better spell options. 4th+ level spells are probably better than heightened sculpted glitterdust even. Though sculpt spell is nice. Heighten is more for sorcerers who can use the generally better higher level spell most of the time, but heighten up a low level spell in the rare circumstances when it's better. I like empower as one of the most generally useful metamagics not only for damage spells but also spells like empowered ray of enfeeblement, empowered enervation and empowered false life.

[Fineous Orlon]

Ooohhh, shiny...

Haste is getting a lot of votes, [Glimbur, Biffoniacus, dspeyer, ericgrau] I will seriously consider it.


...

I'd highly recommend the Fractional BAB variant detailed in UA p73 for this character.

Already there, solid lead.


Consider retraining your second Monk level to Enlightened Fist, ... That would put your character at Monk 1/ Wizard 4/ Enlightened Fist 1, .... grab Abjurant Champion asap. Also consider dipping two levels of Paragnostic Apostle (CC) for Mind Over Matter and Spatial Awareness.

Nice guided research, thanks! I may be checking with my DM about retraining. Paragnostic Apostle really catches the eye....


Your 3rd level spells should probably be Stinking Cloud or Haste, plus a divination spell such as Unluck (SpC). If you get Enlightened Fist you should probably pick a strong melee touch spell such as Shivering Touch from Frostburn (it's too strong as printed, suggest a Fort save for half damage) or Vampiric Touch. Get a Lesser Rod of Maximize to use with either of those, and a few Lesser Rods of Extend for your buffs and crowd controls.
Sounds like retraining to drop Extend if I can get the lesser rod....

More later, thanks so far!

[Fineous Orlon]

Really the only thing ToB being banned does for you (the melee members are hosed though) is make Heroics less (but still VERY) awesome when you can't use it to give Martial Study/Stance.

Isn't the material component for Heroics a nonesuch? I mean if it were a focus instead of material to be consumed, then, MAYBE, but, still, very very rare.

Doubly hard for my character, banned school.