Brainstorming: Incarnum Like Spells to Replace Vancian Casting for Wizards

[wayfare]

Ok, after my fighter fix, I've been trying to figue out a decent Wizard fix so the two can play together. I'd like to bounce an idea of you guys and see if it has enough traction to build a full class out of.

Basically, wizards get a stat called spellpower. This is a form of energy you committ to spells, Binding your spellpower into a spell. Spells with no spellpower bound are non functional.

Bound spells have two features -- an ability that you can use while the spell is bound, and an effect that you can "release" by unbinding the spell.

For example, "Burning Hands" allows you to deliver a fiery touch attack as a standard action while shaped (1d8 + 1/spellpower fire damage). When you unbind the spell, you produce a 20 foot long cone of flame that inflicts 1d8/Spellpower damage.

Spells do not have levels -- all spells are available from level 1, and they simply have increased effects with the ammount of spellpower invested within.

Mages dont have a ton of spellpower -- they get a number of points equal to their intelligence modifier, +1 per level. Spells have a spellpower capacity equal to your level.

Unbinding a spell does not consume spellpower -- you can meditate to reassign your spellpower to any spell you know. Doing so takes 5 minutes of uninterrupted meditation per point of spellpower invested.

TL;DR: Its like Incarnum, except you end your spell to produce a more powerful effect.

I am putting this in the 3.5 thread because I'm interested in peoples thoughts on this vs a vancian system. What sorts of consequences have I not thought about? Is it too much of a rip of incarnum?

[DogbertLinc]

Interesting idea, and it really sounds like a spellcaster port cemented in Incarnum. It does sound like really a lot of work to put together and one line worries me:

"all spells are available from level 1, and they simply have increased effects with the ammount of spellpower invested within."

Trying to balance something to evolve into the 9th level spells from this sounds really hard, and at higher levels you'd effectively have an unlimited daily amount of 9th level spells (the Arcane Swordsage problem) should you really decide to port them over.

Rather than a port, a spellcaster feel using the Incarnum system sounds good.


Note: I actually know very little of how Incarnum works, so forgive me if I'm a moron.

[rot42]

Sounds playable, but you may need an additional cost to some of the very powerful out of combat spells. In combat, the opportunity cost of using a spell as opposed to taking some other action usually mostly keeps things basically under control, but an all day Gate ability might be problematic. Your proposed base effect might be a bit weak - c.f. the reserve feats in Complete Mage. You also have a scaling problem using Int mod like that - see problems with Warmage Edge.

Several psionic powers scale qualitatively (not just quantitatively) when you augment them - could be useful for constructing your spell chains (Dominate and Open Chakra come to mind). You are probably going to want to do this project by constructing it whole cloth using the existing system as inspiration rather than trying to come up with some general procedure for porting.

Say, if you have spellpower invested in Teleport, you can teleport 5'/spellpower as a standard action, or unbind it for Benign Transposition (1 spellpower invested), Baleful Transposition (3 spellpower invested), Dimension Door (7 spellpower invested), &c.?

What do you do about buff durations? 1 round/min/hour per spellpower invested instead of caster level?

[wayfare]

Interesting idea, and it really sounds like a spellcaster port cemented in Incarnum. It does sound like really a lot of work to put together and one line worries me:

"all spells are available from level 1, and they simply have increased effects with the ammount of spellpower invested within."

Trying to balance something to evolve into the 9th level spells from this sounds really hard, and at higher levels you'd effectively have an unlimited daily amount of 9th level spells (the Arcane Swordsage problem) should you really decide to port them over.

Rather than a port, a spellcaster feel using the Incarnum system sounds good.


Note: I actually know very little of how Incarnum works, so forgive me if I'm a moron.

No, you got the basics right!

My goal isn't actually to port over spells (though I may re-use a few names), as much as it is to overhaul magic. I want to give casters weaker, more persistant magic that they have greater control over. Bound spells are going to be designed with utility in mind, while unbound spells tend to have more powerful effects.

A good example is the Jolt spell. When bound, it sallows you to Stagger opponents with a melee touch attack and fort save. Unbound it shoots a lightning bolt at your enemies.

[hamishspence]

This makes me think a lot of the Warlock- which also has everything as at will- but they gain new powers as they level up.

Being able to adjust an individual power by "investing spellpower" in it might be more powerful than the warlock as it stands, which while good is fairly middle-of-the-range as a class.

[wayfare]

This makes me think a lot of the Warlock- which also has everything as at will- but they gain new powers as they level up.

Being able to adjust an individual power by "investing spellpower" in it might be more powerful than the warlock as it stands, which while good is fairly middle-of-the-range as a class.

Thats actually exactly what i am aiming for!

Ideally, I would want the class to be around tier 3 or low tier two!

[Morph Bark]

This reminds me of a homebrew caster class I've seen that I've used for an NPC in my last DM'd campaign. The Indigo Trickster, I think it was called?

[PersonMan]

IIRC, Indigo Trickster is a PrC that mixes...Psionics and Incarnum, I think. I believe I got a request for it in one of my short-lived level omg gestalt campaigns.

After a search, it seems like I was completely wrong. The Indigo Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199905) is an invocation-using gish, basically.

[willpell]

I think you're overcomplicating this. A simple idea I had was to stop giving the wizard his full caster level for every spell he has (this is the whole reason why wizards are quadratic - every level means you learn more spells AND cast your existing spells more often AND they do more damage, last longer, affect larger areas, etc). Instead, each wizard level has a certain number of caster levels which you "spend" on spells. So for instance, if the only spell you knew was Fireball, we'll say you get 15 caster levels at level 5, just off the top of my head. You need to spend caster levels just to cast a Fireball once (either 3 or 5 depending on how we wanted the system to work). The range is 400 feet unless you spend caster levels to add 40 feet each. The damage is 1d6 per caster level you assign to the spell. I might also have you need to put caster levels into the area and the save DC. When you level up to Wizard 6, you get more caster levels, but not enough more that you can increase both your Fireball's damage and its range. (You'd also need to utterly change how Metamagic works under this system, and gut the spell list entirely; it basically wouldn't be D&D anymore by the time you were done.)

[Salanmander]

My goal isn't actually to port over spells (though I may re-use a few names), as much as it is to overhaul magic. I want to give casters weaker, more persistant magic that they have greater control over. Bound spells are going to be designed with utility in mind, while unbound spells tend to have more powerful effects.


You will be a hero among men if you pull this off. Based on your description, I suspect this will be much more in line with the power/ability level of things like beguilers and warblades, plus it sounds like something I would enjoy playing.

How many spells are you planning on creating, and how much versatility would each one have? I imagine it might be less work for you, at or at least feel like less work, if you do fewer spells with more versatility. For example, you might have a "fire" spell that starts out like burning hands, and when you invest spellpower it can be invested either to increase damage or to improve the shape.