Ponderthought Builds a Setting

[Ponderthought]

Hello world building forum. It's been a damn long time, I hope your all doing well in your creative endeavors.

And now that that's out of the way, let's get to the meat of the matter. I've recently had my interest in dungeons and dragons rekindled by encounters with the Pathfinder system. In the interest of starting a game with some friends, I've dug up one of my old settings and set to work finishing it.

And boy, it is a mess.

Thus, I've concluded that the best way to finish it is to consult with the learned minds of the Playground. So I've opened up this little thread to seek input on several matters of importance to the setting.

First, races. Id done well here initially, and with a little extra work, I've built upon my earlier success. We have three different Human cultures, an empire of Hobgoblins based upon the Roman and Incan empires, an entirely new homebrewed race based upon the culture of ancient Persia with a number of additions from indigenous Austrailian cultures, and even Poi twirling, Mere wielding Lizardfolk based upon Oceanic societies. But ive run into abit of trouble with the ah, shorter species.

Ive done a lot of work on dwarves, but they still need a little spice, some sort of connection to an existing earth Culture to establish naming conventions and interesting customs.

On the subject of smaller creatures, I need to fit in some actually diminutive species. It's simply to interesting having a race that could ride unconventional mounts and use agility and guile to out maneuver their larger competition. But I've always rather disliked Gnomes and Halflings, so I've run into a bit of trouble on that front.

Id love any advice you all could provide, and I look forward to the chance to brainstorm with you.

[Sodalite]

I have a strange feeling that dwarves could work as Inuits, or maybe another tribe native far north of the Americas? Scarce resources could create insular dwarfism, though not in RL humans, and the cold weather would probably lead to a stockier frame as well. I'm no more knowledgeable of their culture than Wikipedia can make me, though, so I can't help with that, at the moment.

[Ponderthought]

I have a strange feeling that dwarves could work as Inuits, or maybe another tribe native far north of the Americas? Scarce resources could create insular dwarfism, though not in RL humans, and the cold weather would probably lead to a stockier frame as well. I'm no more knowledgeable of their culture than Wikipedia can make me, though, so I can't help with that, at the moment.

It's an intriguing thought, but I've sort of written myself out of that possibility. My dwarves still need to live underground and have a reputation as crafters for a good deal of this setting to work. Im just desperately trying to get away from Scottish dwarves with axes, simply because it is so very, very cliche.

[Sodalite]

Ah! Another idea, if you don't mind them being the sciency kind of crafters, would be to make them middle-eastern, almost Babylonian. When the fertile crescent stop being so fertile, maybe they dug down to escape the new, harshly arid environment, and being underground required the skills of architecture and construction to be highly valued. From those to practices, advancements and appreciation of others grew, leading them to the position of well-known crafters you describe them as having. Would that work? On second thought, I feel as though I've been too specific, and might further infringing on the ideas you've already had.

[Ponderthought]

Ah! Another idea, if you don't mind them being the sciency kind of crafters, would be to make them middle-eastern, almost Babylonian. When the fertile crescent stop being so fertile, maybe they dug down to escape the new, harshly arid environment, and being underground required the skills of architecture and construction to be highly valued. From those to practices, advancements and appreciation of others grew, leading them to the position of well-known crafters you describe them as having. Would that work? On second thought, I feel as though I've been too specific, and might further infringing on the ideas you've already had.

No no, this is quite good. I hadn't considered Mesopotamian culture when thinking about this. It might be hard to find out about their customs, but I do know they valued beards almost as much, sort of curly dreadlock-y ones. And the near by Egyptians had a number of superstitions about red hair, which coincides nicely with something Ive already written about red hair being connected with smithing talent. Ill have to look some things up and see how well the Babylonian style works with the sort of art deco aesthetic I had in my head for them.

Hell, even having darker skinned dwarves might be a refreshing change.

[Sodalite]

The darker skin would probably imply they do have sunlight. It doesn't require it, but I think it would also be cool if their undergroundness took on a more earthscraper style rather than a bunker- or fort-like one.

[Ponderthought]

True, but it dose take a long time for the genes dictating skin color to change.

Anyway, dose anyone have any ideas for some small races? Some players have professed interest in being small and cuddly and or riding things like dogs around.

[Sodalite]

Can't think of any culture suited for a race which is near-completely 'cute'. For dogs, there'd probably have to be a whole new breed, since no-one or very few people have bothered to breed dogs built to carry much more than their own weight. Dogs were usually used as hunting partners, followed by pets, so if there were a race which rode them, they would probably ride mostly while hunting, or maybe in a domestic sport, like larger races race horses for sport.

*Also, I mention earthscrapers because I feel art deco would work well, considering how it look on skyscrapers.

[Ponderthought]

*Also, I mention earthscrapers because I feel art deco would work well, considering how it look on skyscrapers.

Oh of course. I had actually planned to to something similar from the get go, really. Lots of angles and straight lines in their architecture. Should evoke a very different feel from any of the other races homes.

As for the small races thing, im actually not looking for the cultures yet, so much as the species themselves. Im having a rough time finding anything to adapt in the Pathfinder bestiaries. I mean, theres goblins and kobolds but those are so...meh.

[Ponderthought]

*Also, I mention earthscrapers because I feel art deco would work well, considering how it look on skyscrapers.

Oh of course. I had actually planned to to something similar from the get go, really. Lots of angles and straight lines in their architecture. Should evoke a very different feel from any of the other races homes.

As for the small races thing, im actually not looking for the cultures yet, so much as the species themselves. Im having a rough time finding anything to adapt in the Pathfinder bestiaries. I mean, theres goblins and kobolds but those are so...meh.

[Sodalite]

It does seem like neither of those would work. If they were supposed to something like cute, they'd probably either have a straight bonus to CHA or Diplomacy, or even a negative modifier to Sense Motive checks levied against them, for a kind of deceptive cuteness.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

As for the small races thing, im actually not looking for the cultures yet, so much as the species themselves. Im having a rough time finding anything to adapt in the Pathfinder bestiaries. I mean, theres goblins and kobolds but those are so...meh.

Try Furlings. Small, fast creatures that look suspiciously like miniature wolfmen, or bear-lions. Give them good Dex and low Int, representing a more barbaric race, one too small to have domesticated large animals or have the strength to dig irrigation trenches. Then give them Slings proficiency and darkvision and you're good to go.

I figured you're going with a Bronze Age setting (so was I, ironically) so I'm seeing these as a sort of Hittite/Sea People analogue. Swift, savage hit and run tactics, and faces so cute that you'd never suspect them...until it was too late.

[Ponderthought]

I figured you're going with a Bronze Age setting (so was I, ironically) so I'm seeing these as a sort of Hittite/Sea People analogue. Swift, savage hit and run tactics, and faces so cute that you'd never suspect them...until it was too late.

It's actually not like that. Was it the thing about Mesopotamia? Interesting idea, none the less.

Anyway, the technology level would be more accurately described as just slightly post Roman Empire. Most of the equipment in the players handbook is viable, just not full and half plate.

I also had more dwarf ideas last night, because my brain works in mysterious ways. Im considering basing them off Appalachian coal miners (because I don't think it's ever been done, and I think it'd suit them) or Russians (because for some reason when I looked up pictures of the cast from the upcoming Hobbit movie, the outfits made me think of them and I kind of liked the style)

Also, ive decided I can look outside of Pathfinder for Small races. i dont mind doing abit of conversion.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Actually I assumed Bronze Age due to Ancient Persia, Rome and the Incas being listed as the cultural basis for some of your races. My mistake.

[Ponderthought]

Actually I assumed Bronze Age due to Ancient Persia, Rome and the Incas being listed as the cultural basis for some of your races. My mistake.

Actually, that's an entirely valid mistake, sorry for any confusion. As for the bronze age civilizations, it's just the cultural bits Im using. Also, it can be kind of fun to think about how a civilization would turn out if they'd stuck around longer.

[Sodalite]

Again, not a suggestion for species, but perhaps the small-folk are not wanderers outside of civilization, but within it? Akin to the stereotypical gypsy, traveling in caravans, not welcomed, not trusted, but somehow charming to those who they do come in contact with?

[Steckie]

How about nomadic trader Tuareg Gnolls? (Wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people) to the Tuareg)
They could cross some sort of savannah (or dessert if you like that) in large caravans of ostriches to carry goods.
Gnolls are dog people, so riding dogs would be a bit weird. But they could perhaps ride hyena's or something like that?

[Ponderthought]

How about nomadic trader Tuareg Gnolls? (Wiki link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people) to the Tuareg)
They could cross some sort of savannah (or dessert if you like that) in large caravans of ostriches to carry goods.
Gnolls are dog people, so riding dogs would be a bit weird. But they could perhaps ride hyena's or something like that?

I do love some gnolls. And large, vicious bipedal birds. I might not make them Small, but i could use some more species to run around in the South, which is kind of an analogue for North Africa. And, basing them on the Taureg culture would make them sufficiently different from a similar human culture I based on the various Bedouin tribes of the middle east..

[Ponderthought]

Just had a thought: Kenkus as a small race?

Their alot more interesting than the rather boring gnomes and halflings, plus I could include classes with an oriental flavor without feeling all...otaku (god I hat saying that word)

What do you guys think?

[Sodalite]

It sounds pretty good. I would imagine it's a good idea to make them more songbird-like rather than crow-like, especially if you still want some kind of cuteness for, not to mention it makes for interesting potential racial preference for bards.

[Ponderthought]

Alright, kenkus are in, songbirdification filed under Considering. Now, I need just one more Small race, and things will be filled out nicely. Hrmm, I think we might need something more humanoid for this last one..

[Sodalite]

I suppose you could go with the old version of gnomes, IE small, anti-social, earth-gliding people, but that might be a bit less human than you want. Also from grecian myth, goat-riding, crane-hating pygmies, so called because they're about as tall as the length of an arm, who lived 'at the southern shore of oceanus', which would equate to somewhere on northern Africa on a real map.

[Ponderthought]

Well, really, they don't have to be Human humanoid, just shaped more like that. Im full up on animal people, really.

Ive been considering Bhukas for a while now, though Id like to think about other options first. A hatred of cranes on large birds might be in order for whatever I pick though. Think about how easily a large raptor could carry off a Small person, acht.

[Sodalite]

Maybe add-in the Asherati's sand-swimming, and probably fiddle with some other stuff, like giving them full immunity to being dazzled instead of just sun-glare, since Bhukas are fairly weak, if I recall correctly.

[Ponderthought]

They are a tad underpowered, even in regular 3.5, so I will probably have to go to the drawing board for some new racial features. Im not sure what though. They'll need to be somewhat different from the Kenku, who are pretty much born rogues. I do like making them immune to all dazzling effects though, so that'll probably go in.

Im kind of seeing them as a sort of wise, mystic desert people. I could probably improve their water finding ability somewhat...anyway, this thread is more for fluff and concepts, so i can work that out on my own. What'll need some work is the fact that their technically goblinoids, and I already have hobgoblins. Ill have to figure out how the species are related, or pick something else.

[Sodalite]

If you're redoing the stats, you could always just take out the Goblinoid subtype, or just make them very distant ancestors. Culture-wise, you could base them of the mysterious Nok culture. It's a bit farther south than the Sahara, but as far as we can tell, they jumped straight from stone tools to iron ones, not stopping at copper and bronze, and were thus one of the earliest iron using civilizations, which might be a result of your proposed mysticality or wisdom. We don't have much more known about them aside from their early iron use though, so you'll have to come up with the rest.

[Ponderthought]

Yep, I think their the last of the player races. i'll do alittle work on them, and later tonight, I think i'll post a synopsis for each.

[Ponderthought]

I think ill break this into two halves, as things seem to be going abit slow.

Humans
Humans are a diverse species, newly arrived to the world, but already establishing footholds throughout the Gulf of Jewels.

Men of the North
The humans of the north are an enterprising and adventurous group. Their command of shipbuilding and sailing have made them reknowned explorers, and it was a Northerner that discovered the Gate, and led the remains of humanity and dwarvenkind through it, away from their ruined world.

(The Northerner's culture is base upon that of Scandinavia and Anglo-Saxon Britain)

Men of the Isles
The culture of Aes Aesquor is difficult to describe. The men of the isles are canny traders. Vast ammounts of wealth pass through the hands of the city-state's Merchant Houses. Of note is the city's uncommon attitude towards the Undead. The living dead are tolerated in the city, and some citizens spend years collecting the wealth necessary to have rites or transformation preformed, so that they may live in the exclusive Dead Quarter.

(The Aesquoran civilization is based loosely on the Byzantine Empire, specificly during it's rule by the Greek dynastys)

Men of The South
The men of the south, the City of Kerralt and it's surrounding territories are a people divided. Those who dwell in the city and along the shores of the river are friendly and open, possesing customs of hospitality that would make most feel at home. There is a strong magical tradition amongst them, and some of the greatest wizards known hav been Southerners. Away from the city, in the vast, shinining sands, ride the Desert Tribes. Their mastery of horses is a thing to behold, but they are uniformly suspicious of outsiders, and many veiw city dwellers and weak and sometimes blasphemous.

(Southern culture is based largely on the cultures inhabiting Arabia and the numerous Bedoin tribes of the middle east)


Dwarves
Dwarf
The Dwarves are a short, industrious race that primarily lives beneath the surface. They have spent centuries mastering the arts of metalworking and mining, and their skills in architecture are perhaps the finest in the known world.

The dwarven people joined the human exodus from their previous homeworld, and many feel a great debt to mankind. This being said, the dwarves have not faired nearly as well in their new homeland. Low birth rates and an abiding distrust of the ocean have concentrated the dwarves in the northern lands, where they mostly try to keep to themselves, and only interact with surfacers due to a sense of obligation.

A great many myths surround the dwarven people, which they do little to try and disprove. The dwarves have never been a truly warlike folk, prefering to spend their time on more productive activites, but allow this stereotype to dissuade their enemies from attacting their homes. A less fortunate belief of non dwarves is that the entire species is extremely taciturn and dour. This is simply not true. The dwarves are extremely secretive folk, but when one has gained their trust they are revealed as friendly and jovial, having an appreciation for folk music, ale, somewhat baudy humor and fine food.

Dwarven Inventions

One might be surprised to learn how many of the things they take for granted were first invented by some clever Dwarf. The magnetic Compass, Water Clock and numerous types of lantern stand as testament to dwarven ingenuity. Even commonplace items often have dwarven backgrounds. Eyeglasses, orginally with gemstone lenses, were invented by a near sighted dwarven elder, much to the delight of aging human mages.

(Dwarven culture based on Appalacian culture and their language has touches of Pallantine German)

Hobgoblins
Enslaved to cold fey masters near the begining of their history, the hobgoblin people have know hardship. Their war of independence against the elves forged much of the hobgoblin culture evident today. The fey are individually quite powerful, but lack organization and work poorly together. Hobgobling culture therefor became highly millitaristic and organized, using their coordination and mixed unit tactics to make up for their relative lack of arcane might. Their culture has evolved from those simple armies into a complex empire centered upon The Grey City in the high planes fo the east.

From their years enslaved to the chaotic whims of the fey, the hobgoblins have an inborne desire for logical and organized government. Every stratum of their society has a clear chain of command, and consitant code of law to ensure that all are treated fairly. Thi desire for order extends even to individual behavior, and most hobgoblins are bound by codes of honor in all their dealings.

Hobgoblin Religion
Of note are the spiritual beliefs of the hobgoblin people. The feys demands of complete obedience to an individual master soured them to the concept of offering devotion to a singular entity in the form of a church. Their religious beliefs have turned then to those they know. Hobgoblins traditionally worship the spirits of their ancestors with great fervor, praying to different ancestors for different purposes. For example, a hobgoblin soldier might offer devotion to a mighty warrior in his lineage, perhaps even a fallen hero of the rebellion against the elves, while a healer would pray to an ancestor noted for their mercy for spells of healing.

Some of the more well off hobgoblins choose to have an expensive process of mummification preformed upon their recently deceased kin, to preserve their connection to the physical world. The richest family even construct massive mausoleums to house their honored ancestor mummies. This may be a cause of the recent downturn in their empires economy, as often the dead posses more wealth and land than their living descendents.

(Hobgoblin culture is based upon a fusion of the Roman and Incan empires)


These are basically just little snippets of what the races are like. I haven't gotten around to writing detailed descriptions of each yet. I would love to know if you have any notes about any of them, specifically what they would call their societies. Hobgoblins wouldn't call themselves Hobgoblins, right?

[Sodalite]

That all seems quite good. Certainly sets up lot of more information to be revealed later, or for an individual GM to decide, stuff like the nature of the Humans' and Dwarves' previous world, as well that of the Hobgoblins' former masters. I look forward to next post.

Edit: Also, when a culture was universally oppressed, it's not hard too imagine that they might either adopt a name representing their freedom, or something opposed to their former masters. If the old weakness holds true, something relating to iron might do for the Hobgoblins.

[Ponderthought]

And here's the second half of what Ive managed to churn out tonight.

Vahan
The Vahan are a race of lithe, subterranean humanoids. By human standards, the Vahan are quite exotic, with their large ears, patterned indigo skin and willowy builds. The Vahan are supremely adapted to the challenges of their subterranean world, being swift, clever and naturally charismatic.

From the outside, Vahani culture appears chaotic and disorganized. This is in part due to the nature of the species. Vahan become bored easily, and tend to flit from interest to interest according to individual whim. This seem to actually benefit the culture as a whole, as it allows an individual to try many different occupations and determine which they have a talent for.

A larger than usual percentage of Vahan are naturally magically talented, and it shows. Vahan have devised magical solutions for many problems other civilizations would have to solve through other means, and magic users are better understood in general.

Recently, the Vahan have become much more aware of the surface world. The northern wall of their great cavern housing their capital, Yva, collapsed, creating a natural harbor and allowing contact with the surface races. The Vahan are quite intrigued by this new world, and a large number of their people have set off to explore it.

Vahan Rituals
Many young Vahan participate in one of the races many coming of age rituals. Some are taken into the wild caverns beyond Yva and set loose to make their way home with only their wits and clothing. Some are led to one of the rare Crystal Chambers in hopes that they will experience a personal vision, or discover their magical talent. Still others participate in a type of intense scavenger hunt throughout the city of Yva, competing against other youngsters in using their wits, charisma and agility to finish the hunt first.

Amongst older Vahan, ritualized dueling is a common way to resolve disputes. Typically this is a contest of agility, fought to first blood, but it sometimes take other forms, such as a magicians duel or contest of wits.


Lizardfolk

Descended from tribes that arrived from the west, over the ocean, in ages past the lizardfolk of the Aesquorian Isles are more civilized than they appear. After years of being considered savages, a Northerner finally discovered the key to peaceful contact with a Lizardfolk tribe: Respect. Lizardfolk have a number of customs dealing with outsiders, and the chief amongst them is that an outside must wait outside the village to be called in by the tribes elders. When their customs are treated with the proper respect, Lizardfolk prove to be notably more civilized than the rumors suggest, if slightly strange. Their reptilian nature causes a number of differences with the more common mammalian races. Lizardfolk must spend longer rearing their young, as they lay eggs, must keep a trained eye upon the weather given their cool blood, and often must spend more time thinking about their problems, as their minds function differently than most humanoids.

Socially, Lizardfolk prize the hunters and warriors amongst their tribes. This might suggest bloodthirstiness to other races, but is rooted more in a great respect for strength and skill than true viciousness. It also serves a practical purpose in their society, in that praise and admiration often makes these dangerous professions worth while.

The lizardfolk are suspicious of other humanoids, but are slowly opening up to those that show respect for their traditions and lifestyle. Still, many regard the growing mammalian civilizations with despair, and fear that their world may soon change irrevocably.

Lizardfolk Weapons
Given their inhospitable home terrain and the scarcity of materials, the Lizardfolk have had to become inventive with their weaponry. The most popular choices for lizardfolk warriors are the Mere, Stingray Spear and Shark-Tooth Club. The Mere is a flat greenstone club with surprising striking power. The Stingray Spear is similar to typical javelins, but in place of a bladed point, it bears a spine from a swamp rayfish, which often breaks upon impact, lodging jagged shards of bone into an enemy. The last, the Shark Toothed club, is an axe shaped wooden club, lined with the fangs of some large fish or crocodile, and is capable of inflicting terrible, ripping wounds.


Kenku

Kenku are a species of small crow-like humanoids, originally native to a land far to the east, but now well established in cities around the Gulf of Jewels. They are naturally swift and agile, and often more clever than one would expect. They tend to establish large, communal dwellings known as Rookeries in disused buildings, which are often thought to be thieves guilds.

The largest Rookeries around the Gulf of Jewels lie in the Hobgoblins Grey City. When the Kenku first arrived in this part of the world, the Hobgoblins natural affinity for avians led them to be rather charmed by the diminutive bird people. Without much thought, The reigning Golden Emperor invited several clans of Kenku to live in the Imperial City. The hobgoblins quickly tired of the Kenku's mischievous ways, but could not expel them from the city. A hobgoblins word is their bond. Many Kenku elders still tell this tale to young hatchlings, how clever Kenku outsmarted the might Hobgoblin empire and secured a new home for themselves, usually with a great deal of embelishment.

Despite their mischief and generally chaotic nature, the Kenku do value some social constructs. The bonds of family are considered sacred, and no Kenku would willingly turn on a clan mate. Some Kenku value their clans enough to turn away from the carefree life enjoyed by their brethren, and spend years studying under Elders to master the traditional martial arts of their people, so that they may better safeguard their people from outside threats. Or simply to better prepare themselves, in case their mischief brings serious reprisals. One can never tell with the Kenku.


Kenku Boasting Games

Kenku have have rather a strange way of measuring personal achievement. Greatness is not measured in hard work or personal wealth, but rather, the caliber of adversaries they have outwitted or deceived. Some Kenku even make contests of this, vying against one another to see which can pull off the most difficult scheme or fool the most people. In many cases, this devolves into a contest of boasting, and it's difficult to tell weather the object of the contest is to claim the most impressive deed, or simply to convince the opponent that ones exploits are true.


Bhuka

The Bhuka are a small, mysterious people native to the deserts south of the Gulf of Jewels. They seem to be distantly related to Hobgoblins, but the resemblance is passing at best. Bhuka are small, tribal folk adapted to life in their arid home. They have large ears that fold back against their heads to preserve body heat in the cool desert nights, and disperse it during the hot days. Their feet are broad and tough to disperse their weight on loose sand, and their dark skin and long eyelashes protect them from the worst of the desert sun. Of particular note is the slightly different tones of skin on their faces, which can give some an almost skull faced appearance.

Bhuka society is rather simple at heart, revolving around single villages and families. Government is matriarchal, and often the eldest female of a village acts as its leader, accompanied by a council of older males. They tend to govern with a light touch, and most decisions regarding matters of import, like agriculture and securing water fall to individual families.

Bhuka villages tend to be suspicious of outsiders, finding other civilizations to be entirely to aggressive for their tastes. Still, the occasional Southerner or Vahan finds themselves welcomed into the Bhukas stunning cliffside villages. These travelers often report surprising hospitality, and find that Bhuka youth are much more curious about the outside world than their parents are entirely comfortable with.

Bhuka Warfare
As a species that finds bloodshed distasteful, the Bhuka have developed longstanding traditions for resolving feuds. Typically, this take the form of a series of mock raids, where one group of Bhuka sneak into their enemies village to "Count Coup" by striking the local warriors on the forehead lightly enough to avoid injury, or stealing an enemies weapons or supplies , and then escaping unharmed.

Escaping unscathed while counting coup is considered a high honor, and warriors who manage it are often allowed to wear a feather in their hair or attach one to their weapon as a mark of pride.


And that's the rest of the player races. Any one have any further ideas about names or interesting customs? I think for the hobgoblins, Ill just find out what "The Free People" would translate too in their language and call them that, though working "iron" into it might work as well.

[Ponderthought]

Alright, it's been a few days, so Im just going to move on to the next issue: Religion. Now I've got a few ideas, and some of the species have their own relatively easy religions, but Im having some trouble building the human pantheons and deciding the particulars of the dwarven belief system.

Ill just dump what I've come up with here, so we can decide if their need to be any additions.

Northern Gods
The men of the North have a tradition of following fierce, noble, war gods and rough nature gods.

Kvasir, god of Inspiration, Trickery and Runes.
Nodens, god of the Sea and the Deep Places.
Hel, goddess of Retribution, Spite and the Dishonored Dead.
Mimir, god of Knowledge, Secrets and Magic.
Nidhoggr, draconic god of Hunger, Entropy and Destruction.

Gods of the Isles
The god's of the Isles are a loose pantheon given to meddling with mortals.
Ianos, two faced god of Portals, Gateways and Travel.
Kryiakos, god of Death and Wealth.
Kythera, goddess of Time and Artifice.


Gods of the South
While most southerners prefer to follow the philosophic path of Ma'at, a number of southerners are involved with mystery cults devoted to individual gods.
Ravana , six armed god of Greed and Thieves.
Nehelana , goddess of the River and Water.
Ostanes , god of Magic, Divination and Knowledge.

Clearly, the pantheons are abit thin at the moment, and this is troublesome (well, less in the case of the South, as they don't really have a Pantheon) I mean, who would human Paladins serve in this setting? There's very few gods that count as both Lawful and Good right now.

The Dwarven religious problem is a little easier, I think. Im thinking they should worship the earth in a sort of monotheistic way, but a part of me thinks they need some sort of forge god as well. Mostly it's the particulars of their spiritual beliefs that escape me.

Anyway, any ideas about additions to the pantheons would be much appreciated.

[Sodalite]

I would imagine that the dwarves might revere heroes or great people, along side worship of the earth.

Additionally, I imagine there would be an actual warrior god within the northern pantheon, with paladin semi-equivalents being less about slaying evil and more about honorable battle in general.

[Ponderthought]

I would imagine that the dwarves might revere heroes or great people, along side worship of the earth.

D'you think Saints would work for that?

Also, Im working on warrior gods, but im just not getting somewhere for some reason. I've got a few nebulous ideas banging around. A god of justice (the formal kind). A sort of combination of Freya and Sif as a warrior goddess with hair of actual gold. A god of hunting and the wilderness.

[Sodalite]

Saints could definitely work, as could those war gods, though my suggestion also include that perhaps that is whom paladins or paladin-equivalents serve.

Marginally related, would it be possible that there is compound culture between the northerners and the hobgoblins? I ask because there is a similar culture to that pair who were called the Lusitani.

[Ponderthought]

I think paladins might be into the Justice god and my proposed Freya/Sif combination. Now if i could just put them together.

The hobgoblins are kind of wary of the humans. They don't quite understand the circumstances of their arrival, and that makes them suspicious. And also, there's a sort of kernel of memory amongst them of a time when their former Elven masters fought a disastrous war with creatures very like the Northerners, so they don't exactly know what to think of them. That, combined with a rather large expanse of open wilderness between the two groups has kept them mostly apart.

That being said, there probably is a section of Lodestone hobgoblin expatriates choose to live in, and the Northerners send diplomats to the Grey City all the time, as it's prudent to keep a close eye one ones neighbors, especially ones that are powerful and well established. This might lead to a strange cultural mix in small areas..

[Sodalite]

I have the strong feeling that the memory of the elves fighting with northerner-like beings is related to the war between the Aesir and the Vanir, but I'm not totally sure.

Also, while he is potentially one of the lesser described gods, Forseti might be useful for the justice portion of that combination. I say he is lesser described since the part about him making no unfair judgements may have been added in by Snorri rather than a quality which was actually ascribed to him.

[Ponderthought]

Actually, the war was really just a way for me to have human shaped undead older than five hundred years old in the setting. I hadn't really considered the Aesir/Vanir war in that context, though they are the basis of the northern pantheon with the Aesir as fierce warlike gods and the Vanir as rougher nature gods.

I've been considering Forseti for a while, but there's not much information to be found on him.. And I really wouldnt want to port him into the setting outright, without some way of twisting him into something more interesting and unique to the setting.

[Ponderthought]

Alright, after a bit of brainstorming with some other friends, I've got a few to add to the northern pantheon, I think. A most of them dont have names yet, but the concepts are there.

Valfrey, Goddess of Strategy and Honor
Valfrey is a stern goddess of skill at arms and honorable conduct. She is a skilled strategist and warrior, and teaches that victory can be achieved without the need for violating the rules of engagement, if one is clever and willing. She asks her followers to be honest and forthright in their dealings, especially in conflict.

Valfrey and Kvasir have a longstanding, but relatively friendly rivalry that has spawned numerous tales. Valfrey considers the God of Runes lazy and duplicitous, while Kvasir find Valfrey to be rigid and too concerned with tradition.

Unnamed God of Bravery and Strong Drink
Im considering basing this god on Bodvar Bjarki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodvar) but im rather unsure. I like the idea of connecting him with bears, but he doesn't seem foolhardy enough to be a good of drink, although the bear thing dose tie in well with Mead, as it's made from honey.

Unnamed God of Weather
I really have no basis for this but my own imagination. I imagined a god that chased the sun across the sky in a chariot drawn by two huge wolves (chariots drawn by odd beasts being a thing norse myth) I dont know much else about him, other than perhaps he has command of the winds.


Unnamed God of Oaths and Law
In a culture with very little in the way of an organized legal system, a god of Oaths and Laws would be quite necessary to resolve disputes impartially and fairly. Im imagining a wise old man, perhaps with a blindfold and a high throne. He'd be one, along with Valfrey, of the few northern gods that might attract paladins.


Unnamed God of Hunting and The Wilderness
Thi one is mostly a matter of necessity, as I need some nature gods. Ive got very little clue about what to do with him fluff wise, though.

Unnamed Goddess of Rebirth and Youth
Clearly there need to be a few non-aggressive gods in this pantheon. I figured id base this one on Idun, with a similar story. She keeps the golden apples that are the source of the gods immortality, and rules over the domains of healing and renewal. Might have a thing about undead, Im not sure.

Anyway, thats what ive got thus far. As always, any help brainstorming up names or details would be appreciated.

[Ponderthought]

Usually I wont bump my own thread, but I have reached a stumbling point. Since the last post ive finished the Northern and Islander pantheons (ill have to do a recap at some point, or perhaps showcase the entire setting in another post) but im having alot of trouble with the Southern faiths. I wanted each subsection of humanity to have unique beliefs.

The northerners have a rather traditional loose pantheon, the islanders have six mystery cults... and the southerners have one dualistic faith. And I like it, I do, but it seems like they should have more variety than that.

So, any ideas? Im pretty much going from scratch here.

[Sodalite]

A strong magical tradition among the city-goers of the south, as well as an Arabic basis sounds ripe, to me, for some kind of alchemical tradition, though that may be a bit sciency to qualify as a religion, at least if you go with Arabic kind of alchemy and not the European one. The post about religions earlier this page seems a bit sparse about what exactly the path of Ma'at is, which makes it hard for me to think of or find things which are relevant to their culture which won't step on the former's toes.

[Ponderthought]

Ma'at was the Egyptian concept of the law and ordering of the universe, and how one should act and think to maintain that harmony. It kind of has echoes in Confucianism. Im thinking of dropping it anyway, as there's very little egyptian about the southern peoples.

As for an alchemy religion, ive been thinking of something similar, but ive no idea how to go about it.

[Sodalite]

I agree the southerners don't seem especially Egyptian. I'm not especially sure where to start with the alchemy, either, since it wasn't a religion so much as it was an occupation. Some of the loftier goals like transmuting things into gold were based the ideas had by Muslim alchemists, but most of their RL goals were either tied in theoretical things like figuring out how the substances they called sulfur, mercury, and salt interacted with eachother to generate the variety of metals found in the earth, or significantly more grounded things like making medicine and curing the sick.

[Ponderthought]

Well, im thinking about a faith more concerned with the type related to Hermeticism. Many alchemists used the terminology and concepts from the science of alchemy to represent spiritual transmutations. Théodore Henri de Tschudi said some things about it -

"Q. When the Philosophers speak of gold and silver, from which they extract their matter, are we to suppose that they refer to the vulgar gold and silver?
A. By no means; vulgar silver and gold are dead, while those of the Philosophers are full of life."

I like the whole concept of it. The spiritual side of it could be reserved for the well educated, magically inclined, while the broader face of the faith could be concerned more with traditional alchemy, to fund the church.

I just have no idea what to call it.

[Sodalite]

Going to the deep roots of the word alchemy, you might call it the Black Earth, though that would make southerners a bit more Egyptian than not, since Black Earth was how ancient Egypt distinguished itself from the sandy deserts occupying a large portion of the rest of northern Africa.

[Ponderthought]

Hrmm, I just cant seem to work Black Earth into something that rolls off the tongue correctly. Anyway, aside from the naming issues, the idea is great, and I think ill keep it.

So we've got an expy for Zoroastrianism, a religion based upon alchemy...what else can we think up?

[Voltaire]

Three things I can think of:

1) A monotheistic religion for the inevitable ideological clash (monotheists rejecting any polytheistic worship as heretical)

2) Ancestor worship (lots of possibilities here: household guardians, revered artefacts, ancestor 'consultation' through elaborate rituals

3) African-styled animism, wherein spirits are thought to inhabit and preside over geographical features, like rivers and mountains etc.

Also, re: alchemy: names like Bolus of Mendes, Ostanes, Empedocles, Trismegistus, Komarios, Chymes were prominent in our own world, and might prove inspirational.

[Sodalite]

Not sure as to where it might fit, but a celestial bureaucracy style polytheism can't be forgotten about, having dozens upon dozens of gods with assigned stations, rather than inherent ones.

Edit: Obviously I don't expect only a few people to come up so many gods, but naming the high ranking stations might be a possibility.

[Ponderthought]

Also, re: alchemy: names like Bolus of Mendes, Ostanes, Empedocles, Trismegistus, Komarios, Chymes were prominent in our own world, and might prove inspirational.

I'd actually already named the founder of the alchemy religion Ostanes. Ive always used that name for magical types, since I read about it while researching greeks and persians. I still haven't settled on a name for the entire faith yet. the Teachings of Ostanes? The Path of Change? I dunno.

In other news, while I was in the car earlier, me and a friend hit upon the basis for another religion. They'd believe in an endless cycle of reincarnation, with a finite number of individual souls. I think that'll be enough for human religions, I just need to detail them more.

[Omeganaut]

I'd imagine your northerners live somewhere cold, so they would need a god of frost, or alternatively opposing godly powers like the frost giants.

If you create cults, you need a cult to a Mithrates proxy. He was an Asiatic god of war with a bull's head, who was picked up by a large portion of the roman army that served in the east of the empire. Very secretive, much like modern Masons, but with a significant inspiration to fight. Lawful as well.

[Ponderthought]

Yeah, the gods of the Giants are the traditional enemies of the Northern Pantheon (Like the giants themselves are the enemies of Men in the north). Some in the pantheon might even be part giant, like Kvasir. Their chief god, Thyrm (at least for the frost giants) is a creature of frost and biting cold himself.

Actually, Ive already got a cult of Mithrates for the Islanders, under the name Mithras. His worshipers are mostly career soldiers, with the occasional paladin mixed in. All of their religions tend to work like mystery cults, actually. The temples themselves are public, but to truly become a member of the churches requires initiations and rituals. Later on, Im actually going to have to consider the specific rituals of each church, so religious Islander PCs can know what they've been through.

Hrmm. So whats next. I still need to decide what religion has the khopesh as a favored weapon, and get some things named... And then I guess it's on to the next big section, Organizations.

[Sodalite]

Maybe some small religion of the South, considering the khopesh's actual origins, but besides that, I've no idea. Organizations does sound quite interesting though.

[Ponderthought]

You know, now that i think about it, I could apply the thing about Ma'at to the reincarnation religion to produce something interesting. The reincarnation one is abit light on how it's followers should act, and the Egyptian influence would make the khopesh appropriate, which is a thing I'd like, as khopeshes (Who even knows how that plural should look, spell check is giving me nothing) are just that damn cool.

Anyway, yes, organizations. I'll round up the list and post what I've got later on today, I think.

[Ponderthought]

Alright, let's dig up what I have for Organizations

The Kazerabet
The Kazerabet are an ancient assassin cult, who believe that each kill strengthens them, bringing them closer to immortality

The Hammers of Rashne
The hammers of Rashne are a militant order devoted to the pursuit of justice, regardless of concerns like mercy or jurisdiction.

The Torchbearers
The Torchbearers are a secret society devoted to the accumulation and protection of ancient knowledge and artifacts.

The Blind Tower
An international criminal syndicate, the Blind Tower is much more than a traditional thieves guild. They typically deal in crime-for-hire and spy work, and notably, do not take assassination contracts.

The Hands of Ravanna
A cult devoted to the avaricious god Ravanna, The Hands consist of merchants, thieves and others devoted to the pursuit of wealth and status.

The Consortium
Essentially a social club for students of magic, the Consortium functions somewhat like an international Mages Guild.

That's what I've found in my old files. Some of it doesn't quite work anymore, like the Hammers, as their patron god is no longer included. I do have sort of an attachment to each though, and it'd be neat to find ways to make them work.

Ive had a few new ideas as well. A cult devoted to a sub-deity avatar of pain, a hobgoblin order of paladins who wear red cloaks, a group of warriors who band together for companionship rather than mercenary ends (though the money is nice) But they all need a little work.

So what do you guys think?

[Sodalite]

Seems pretty neat. The potential future groups especially seem interesting, which I suppose is way you continue to consider them. I don't really have much else to say, unfortunately, at least now.

[Ponderthought]

Ive been working on a new one, the paladin order for hobgoblins. Im thinking of calling them the Order of the Blooded Mantle, and having them wear rust red cloaks all the time. I don't think their directly connected to the clergy, but operate more like a knightly order, with members having alot of leeway, but respecting the wisdom of the Masters and Grandmaster. Now they just need a bit of history..

[Ponderthought]

It's been quite a while, but I return with ideas for more organizations, mostly of the fighting brotherhood type.

The Host
The Host is a brotherhood of warriors, based in Lodestone, that seek adventure and glory. They are notably less "uptight" than other fighting orders, perhaps due to their lack of a connection to an established church. All men and women of valor are welcome, provided they seek companionship and glory.

The Sisterhood of the Pale Rose
A secretive order, the Sisters of the Rose are dedicated to the protection of their sacred relic, a single rose, frozen in time and kept in an ornate glass case under lock and key. The supposed origins of the rose are many, and the truth is difficult to divine, but it is clear that the Sisters consider it precious.

The Knights Sable
The Knights Sable are less and order than a simple network of acquaintances. They are men and women who, for reasons unique to each, prefer to adventure anonymously. They take their name from the black silks and cloths they drape across their armor and shield to disguise any insignia or crest that they might bear. Knights belonging to other, more official orders, tend to be rather suspicious of the Knights Sable. After all, anyone could be underneath that armor. An adventurous noble keen to hide his activities from his kin, a knight disgraced and expelled from her original order, or even a villain masquerading as a more virtuous warrior.

[Sodalite]

Those do seem quite interesting. The society of the hobgoblins seems to be a quilt of orders, stitched together by the unassociated population, to put it metaphorically. Would seem accurate to you?

[Ponderthought]

Perhaps. There are a great many hobgoblins in the military, in fact, a set period of military service is mandatory. A great many choose to make a career of soldiering, and they typically do it either by re joining the military proper or joining one of the associated orders like the Order of the Blooded Mantle or the monks who serve as the Emperors covert body guards. The instinct to group together runs strongly through their species.

[Sodalite]

I wonder how that played out during the subjugation to the fey...Besides that, the social structure, and presumably, the castes of the men of the South seem relevant, as well organizations within that civilization. I imagine that because of the presence of Ma'at, that relatively clear groups within their society would be present, though no doubt there would less rigid associations amongst those who happen to not follow that philosophy.

[Ponderthought]

The hobgoblins communal instinct is one of the reasons they managed to win their independence. They were able to organize quickly and efficiently, while the fey, who are contentious and solitary by nature, were not able to respond as quickly, and often fell to infighting. Their magics and personal power were superior, but they simply didn't have the numbers or cohesion to subdue the rebellion.

The followers of Ma'at aren't as caste based as might be supposed, actually. Their social groups have more to do with how far they are along the spiritual path, how much they know of their previous incarnations and how well they abide by the Laws. Overall, social standing in the South has more to do with things like wealth and heredity than spiritual matters, though some have found ways to turn their faith to more temporal power.