(PF)Character Build/Concept Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge

[joca4christ]

Okay gang, needing some input.

Getting ready to play a campaign, starting out at level 3. The idea is this:

Aasimar as race
Oracle 2/Sorcerer1

Looking at Celestial Bloodline for the Sorcerer
Lore for the Oracle Mystery
Curse being Tongues (Celestial)

The party has no arcane/divine casters, so that's why I am doing both. Plan on taking mystic theurge at ninth level. I know I could get it faster with Wizard/Cleric, but then I have to deal with MAD. With Oracle/Sorcerer, just have to worry about Charisma for spells, and Dex for uping my AC.

Not sure what feats I should take. Thinking about Scribe Scroll. Is there anything out there that would make me more effective as a divine/arcane caster?

Thanks for the help!

[Bhaakon]

The problem with Mystic Theurge is that you're trading away four caster levels of each class to access both lists. This hurts, especially at low levels. You're really better off committing to divine or arcane and finding a way to patch over the shortfall in other ways (UMD, summons, leadership).

On paper, getting both spell lists sounds great. In practice, you can generally only cast one spell a turn, so it's just like you're an oracle or sorcerer who is four levels behind the rest of the group. This hurts, especially considering that sorcerers and oracle already advance their spell casting slower than prepared casters. You'll just be getting level 3 spells at level 10, when a straight sorcerer or oracle has level 5 spells. That's a major handicap.

I can suggest a couple alternatives. A witch gets a smattering of both the arcane and divine lists. To simplify it greatly, the she trades off most of the blasting arcane spells for access to most healing spells. In addition, one of the archetypes even lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells to healing spells, like a cleric, and the healing patron will get you access to most of the other healing spells the class is missing (the restoration line, most importantly, and other condition-nullifying spells). If all you really want is an arcane caster who can heal stuff as effectively as a full divine caster, this is your best bet.

The Razmiran Priest (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/razmiran-priest) archetype for sorcerer gives you bonuses to use UMD to cast divine spells. Most of the time, a good UMD and the right assortment of wands (which, if you've got a high IRL charisma, you can probably get the other group members to chip in on) is all you need, anyway.

[Chained Birds]

You can also go:

Cleric 2/ Sorcerer (Wildblooded: Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal)) 1

Empyreal is like the Subdomain of the Celestial Bloodline, so you wouldn't be losing anything Fluff-wise. The Bloodline makes your main Sorcerer stat Wisdom instead of Charisma.
So you'll be able to get into Mystic with (Cleric 3/ Sorcerer 4) instead of (Oracle 4/ Sorcerer 4). You will even get 2 Domains.

I believe Domain benefits are overall better than revelations, but if you are adamant about playing Oracle, then that's fine too. Just throwing that option to get into Mystic sooner but still being SAD.

[Baroncognito]

If your GM allows third party classes, you could also throw in Apprentice (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/apprentice), which would count as one caster level of each class after you had taken one level of each class.

(So 1 Apprentice, 1 Sorcerer, 1 Oracle would count as 2nd level Sorcerer and 2nd level Oracle)

[Acanous]

I highly reccommend dropping Oracle entirely, and substituiting Razmiran Priest as a Sorceror Archetype. You will be casting Devine spells from items, but will use your own spell slots instead of expending the item,meaning it's a one-time investment, and you'll scale a whole heck of a lot better. This means you will end up with Lv 9 Arcane casting/Lv 8 devine casting, AND you end up with it earlier.
Theurging is really much better (If you can consider it "Better" at all) for prepared casters, because they don't give up level 9 spellcasting (Merely delay it 'til the last 5% of the game)

I don't mean to sound so down on theurges, it's just that the whole thing is a well-disguised trap. The concept SOUNDS cool, but in practice you'll feel like you're falling behind during the levels of your second class, and you ARE. Picking up Theurge levels *Never* Catches you up, and IIRC, in Pathfinder, there's no alt-class to allow you to continue Theurging past 10 levels... meaning you're stuck with 7th level cap to your secondary class.

Razmiran Priest, however, caps at 9 arcane and 8 devine, and given that you're casting the Devine from scrolls, using your spell slots, you're like a prepared-spontanious caster, which is flat out better in every way.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
Once you get to level 9 of Razmiran Priest, you can prestige into Cypher Mage, which, among other things, allows you to retrieve scrolls as a swift, and cast without provoking. The two things stack very well, especially if you take the Sorceror option to cast from Intelligence.

[joca4christ]

Lots of great advice given, and I'm still listening.

The reason I like this build is bound up in:
1. I dislike prepared casting as I have to decide each "day" which spells I effectively "know" and for someone not used to playing casters, this seems a huge pain in the neck.

2. I love the sheer number of spells per day, even if I don't get access to higher level spells. Using this build, at 2nd level, I can cast like 8 1st level spells per day, 4 from each class. That's hard to pass up.

3. With this build, I can effectively use scrolls and wands from either my divine or arcane list without having to waste skill points in UMD.

I really like the apprentice thing, and will run it by my GM.

Any feats you all can recommend?

[Corlindale]

I also think there are better ways to accomplish what you want than a mystic theurge build which severely stunts your spell progression.


The reason I like this build is bound up in:
1. I dislike prepared casting as I have to decide each "day" which spells I effectively "know" and for someone not used to playing casters, this seems a huge pain in the neck.

IN that case, I would suggest a pure Oracle, with a mystery containing some of the arcane spells you think you'll be missing. Take Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) if you want to handpick a few more.



2. I love the sheer number of spells per day, even if I don't get access to higher level spells. Using this build, at 2nd level, I can cast like 8 1st level spells per day, 4 from each class. That's hard to pass up.

It's just not worth it, especially not with sorceror/oracle. Yes, you can cast lots of spell per day, and at 2nd level you'll have more staying power than most, but soon they'll be 5 levels behind those of a wizard or a cleric. You aren't going to use all spells every day anyway, as you get to higher levels. And both you and your party will be frustrated when your access to key spells like Restoration, Raise Dead, Teleport, Fly, Heal, etc... is delayed for that many levels.


3. With this build, I can effectively use scrolls and wands from either my divine or arcane list without having to waste skill points in UMD.

If you go for a pure oracle instead you get more skill points, which could be invested in UMD, for using arcane spell-trigger items.

[Ravenica]

I'm playing my second run through on the same build, major thing to ask your dm is if he can allow Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane? I think) from 3.5

The boost of plus 4 to your caster level helps alot.
At 4/4/5 (and a lich template) I can currently cast 18 first and second level spells, 16 3rd and 12 forth level.

While people argue that you are "weaker" (and for the most part are right in the sense that you don't get your higher level spells as fast) you can sling a boatload of good/high damaging spells with no saves more times a day than you should ever need and they don't take that into account. It is the ultimate endurance caster. You are only 2 spell levels behind (at 14th you gain 5th level as the wizard in the party gets 7th)

Throwing in the apprentice may not be the best idea, idealy it speeds up your spell progression by 1 level but you lose out on the 4th level bonuses from sorc and oracle which can be devastating for the build depending on what your focus is going to be.

There are some nifty tricks you can get away with using this build as well. My current one can control 136HD of animated skeletons and zombies (9th level caster in 2 classes, +4 caster level in both from practiced spellcaster for 13, undead master applies to both as well for another +4, 17*2*4=136) As well as the 8 I can control with command undead feat (Bones revelation + undead master)

[grarrrg]

Lore for the Oracle Mystery
Curse being Tongues (Celestial)

...With Oracle/Sorcerer, just have to worry about Charisma for spells, and Dex for uping my AC.

That is a Lore Revelation, "Sidestep Secret" that gives you CHA-to-AC (and Reflex Saves) instead of DEX.
Take it, TAKE IT NOW!, then you only really need CHA and CON.
The only thing you really need DEX for then is Initiative, take Improved Initiative Feat if needed, and Ranged attacks, which you probably won't be making anyway.

[Ravenica]

Ah yes and Quicken Spell is another good option. You have those higher level slots you might as well use them to double cast every round!

[Waker]

What kind of role do you want to play in the party? Buffing, battlefield control, direct damage and so on. Telling us that can help narrow down the feat choices.
Expanded Arcana- Grants you an extra spell known (or two of a lower level). Can be taken multiple times.
Extra Revelation- Since you plan on multiclassing, you won't be able to get as many of your revelations, this can help. Can be taken multiple times.
Theurgy- Seems kinda appropriate. Sack an arcane spell to increase the divine spells caster level by 1. Or sack a divine spell to make an arcane damaging spell deal half the damage as holy.

[Ravens_cry]

The trait Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) will make your caster level almost up to par with one class, which is handy.

[Jarazix]

This is an old thread but I have input on it.

I am making a Kingmaker character and doing Sorc/Oracle Thurge. I am using Aasimar early entry.

Lore Oracle/Arcane bloodline. I do not have my sheet here, nor my books. Lore oracle gives you CHA to AC, There is a feat that gives a diving caster CHA to saves, Divine Protection. Lore Oracle gets CHA to many Knowledge skills. There is a trait Noble Scion I think ( appropriate for Kingmaker) that gives CHA to initiative. Not all you need is a few of many ways to get a slight caster level bump. Or you can join a guild, increase in rep and have full casting in both ( to 13th)

I think for the RP uses of Charisma, and the fact we have a wizard and cleric already, this will be great in this campaign.