Luna arrives in Mesoamerica in 1468 AD

[Fallen Angel]

She immedatly takes over the Aztec empire somehow, and knows the Europeans will cometh to try and take all of the 'Americas'. She can do whatever she can to stop this outside using her magic, as she's using her magic to keep the empire to heel.

She has to keep the europeans off the continent and immediatly starts on making a larger empire. Can she stop the various european powers?

(Yes, the pony! This is Nightmare Moon, however.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

As 90% of the population on the continents dies over progressive waves of disease in the coming centuries... no.

Also Luna? Do you mean pony Luna?

[Misery Esquire]

Could... You expand on who this Luna person is? There's quite a few fictional characters and a moon that share the name.

Wait... If the moon is magic... and takes over the Aztecs... :smalleek:

[Friv]

I am going to choose to believe that you are referring to Luna the Orca Whale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_%28killer_whale%29).

So Luna will conquer the Aztecs through, I don't know, how awesome orcas are, and then will attempt to ram Cortez's boats when they arrive. Unfortunately, even Spanish boats are probably sturdier than an orca, so no, I don't think it will work.

[Traab]

I thought this meant luna lovegood. In which case the aztec gods would be even MORE trippy in description.

[Tavar]

Quick answer: can you provide some way to get a large majority(shoot for at least 75%) of the population immune to the diseases that the Europeans will bring? If yes, then it is possible. If no, then it's pretty much impossible, due to the death toll of those diseases.

She can probably blunt some of the early expeditions, though. For instance, Cortez's expedition has several points where a slightly different action by the natives would have changed everything.

[endoperez]

So, which Luna?

Luna, the black cat from Sailor Moon? Can't see how she'd accomplish anything.

Luna Inverse, the elder sister of Lina Inverse of Slayers? A holy knight with enough power to cut Lina's trademark, city-destroying super-powered Dragon Slave in half?

Luna, a pony from the newest My Little Pony cartoon?

I like the Luna (ancient city in Etruria, Italy) idea best so a´far.
http://www.tvwiki.tv/wiki/Luna

Basically, a major city in ancient Italy before Rome, who brought to Rome, the city, much of what we now think of when we think of Rome, the empire. I could see the past superpower getting desperate when a new power is rising, and the etruscan mage-priests desperately asking their gods and goddesses for help... the whole city being thrown elsewhere and elsewhen. The etruscs would be sure that the Romans are coming for them, and would start preparing for the day when the Roman triremes are seen on the horizon.

The European diseases they bring with them would devastate the natives, but they would be different, and most of the population (say, 70-85 %) would survive. The population would also get immunity or resistance to the second wave of disases that comes with the Conquistadors.

The Lunians would bring with them knowledge of metals, Greek and pre-Roman civilization, Phalanx tactics, horses... Furthermore, the Conquistadors would probably think they found a lost Roman colony.

[Tvtyrant]

The impact of Luna coming to Mesoamerica is the immediate extinction of all humans on the earth, along with 90% of all life. However, soon the world is populated by tube worms because of the opening of several massive methane vents!
I am assuming that by Luna, you meant the moon.

[Lateral]

Luna who? Seriously, details, before this thread becomes the next Snuggles the Death Kitty.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Luna from Dominic Deegan. If it's that Luna, than she becomes their goddess, while everyone else does all the important things, and then she gets all the credit, despite diong nothing to help anyone, ever, and actually having made things worse.

[Eakin]

Luna who? Seriously, details, before this thread becomes the next Snuggles the Death Kitty.

I really need to hear more about this.

And what I'm taking away from this thread is that fiction has way too many characters named "Luna"

[Lateral]

Luna from Dominic Deegan. If it's that Luna, than she becomes their goddess, while everyone else does all the important things, and then she gets all the credit, despite diong nothing to help anyone, ever, and actually having made things worse.
All while having random, pointless episodes of low self-esteem in between being ridiculously overconfident and downright stupid. Yeah, she'd probably run them into the ground before the Europeans even got there.

I really need to hear more about this.
Catnip for the cat god, yarn for the yarn throne, yadda yadda. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068)

And what I'm taking away from this thread is that fiction has way too many characters named "Luna"
Eeeyup.

[Tavar]

I really need to hear more about this.

And what I'm taking away from this thread is that fiction has way too many characters named "Luna"

To be fair, at least 3 of them get their name because they are/are related to the Moon. And one of them is even a real, historical place.

[Fallen Angel]

Ahh! The pony! The pony!

[Eakin]

Ahh! The pony! The pony!

Well then, I suspect the epic final showdown would go something like this:

"Hey Luna? Can Europe have the sun back?"

"No. Enjoy your ice age"

"Well, we're f^#$ed"

Seriously though, you should probably ask this in pony thread. We tried to keep all the pony quarantined there, April Fools notwithstanding.



Catnip for the cat god, yarn for the yarn throne, yadda yadda. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93068)

That's amazing. Best derail ever

[Soras Teva Gee]

"Hey Luna? Can Europe have the sun back?"

Well the OP did say that magic is not availible since its tapped with keeping the Aztecs empire together.

Also I REALLY don't want to think of the implications of stopping the Earth's rotation.


Seriously though, you should probably ask this in pony thread. We tried to keep all the pony quarantined there, April Fools notwithstanding.

Hey its no worse then then any particular variation of the versus thread.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, she can fly and has none-magical lighting from being part pegasus, so I assume she sets their masts on fire as they try to cross the ocean and simply never lets them land. Maybe have the people make fireboats for the same reason.

[erikun]

Well her healing songs and magical nature would probably help locally, although the fact that she is the literal living embodiment of a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar:_Silver_Star_Story_Complete) might matter a bit more if Luna could access it freely.

[NerfTW]

She immedatly takes over the Aztec empire somehow, and knows the Europeans will cometh to try and take all of the 'Americas'. She can do whatever she can to stop this outside using her magic, as she's using her magic to keep the empire to heel.

She has to keep the europeans off the continent and immediatly starts on making a larger empire. Can she stop the various european powers?

(Yes, the pony! This is Nightmare Moon, however.)

Well, as Soras Teva Gee pointed out, the reason the native population of the Americas fell wasn't due to some lack of civilization and military. It was due to a plague that wiped out most of the population. So basically, if this pony can stop a plague, then the expansion of Europe into the New World simply never would have happened. Or if it did, it would have been more similar to assimilation, much like other refuges coming to the country in later centuries.

[Gaelbert]

Well, as Soras Teva Gee pointed out, the reason the native population of the Americas fell wasn't due to some lack of civilization and military. It was due to a plague that wiped out most of the population. So basically, if this pony can stop a plague, then the expansion of Europe into the New World simply never would have happened. Or if it did, it would have been more similar to assimilation, much like other refuges coming to the country in later centuries.

Well here's my $.02. Nightmare Moon seems more than enough to "take care of" Columbus' measly three ships. If Columbus doesn't return, then everybody thinks he failed and no one would want to mount another massive journey west for quite some while. Ships would turn up in the Americas, I imagine, but not in large enough quantities to trouble Nightmare Moon. My guess, though, is that the ships would still carry the plague. The Americas would go through a similar loss of population, but since it's not coupled with a military invasion, I don't think it would be quite so brutal. By the time Europe gets curious as to why all their ships going west have never returned, my guess is that the Americans would have developed something of an immunity to the diseases. Or, more of an immunity.

[Killer Angel]

Well then, I suspect the epic final showdown would go something like this:

"Hey Luna? Can Europe have the sun back?"

"No. Enjoy your ice age"

"Well, we're f^#$ed"

Seriously though, you should probably ask this in pony thread. We tried to keep all the pony quarantined there, April Fools notwithstanding.


And there's a reason we do it.
One of the things in the ponythreads that bugs me, is that all those cute little ponies with their magical powers, are overestimated winners.
Seriously, I don't deny that they possess some amazing abilities, but we should also evaluate what their typical enemies are.
I recall one episode where the ponies were fighting a huge hydra, which repeatedly stumbled on its own heads. Or when a chargin bisons' herd was significantly halted by some thrown pies.

[Sean Mirrsen]

And there's a reason we do it.
One of the things in the ponythreads that bugs me, is that all those cute little ponies with their magical powers, are overestimated winners.
Seriously, I don't deny that they possess some amazing abilities, but we should also evaluate what their typical enemies are.
I recall one episode where the ponies were fighting a huge hydra, which repeatedly stumbled on its own heads. Or when a chargin bisons' herd was significantly halted by some thrown pies.One should also understand that enemies more in line with the ponies' actual abilities would never make it into a show with MLP's target demographic. At most they would be slightly watered down and inserted at key dramatic moments, as supervillain-equivalents. That we don't get to see more serious applications of pony prowess is merely a medium convention, and, sadly, will likely remain that way until there's a sort of an official MLP spinoff for an older crowd.

[Luka]

Since I live in South America, if that ever happened the effects of that seem truly interesting to me. :smallbiggrin:

Though if she arrives spreading friendship stuff then there could be kind of conflict since as far I know Aztecs and the sort had some kind of religious warrior culture, and if she just arrives destroying humans.....Well good luck doing that, humans are VERY GOOD at making something that will destroy, anything we get our hands on instantly turns into a lethal weapon :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

One should also understand that enemies more in line with the ponies' actual abilities would never make it into a show with MLP's target demographic. At most they would be slightly watered down and inserted at key dramatic moments, as supervillain-equivalents. That we don't get to see more serious applications of pony prowess is merely a medium convention, and, sadly, will likely remain that way until there's a sort of an official MLP spinoff for an older crowd.

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of that and of all the reasons behind it, but the fact still remains: if the ponies face clumsy and funny enemies, their effective combat ability is not proven.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well, as Soras Teva Gee pointed out, the reason the native population of the Americas fell wasn't due to some lack of civilization and military. It was due to a plague that wiped out most of the population. So basically, if this pony can stop a plague, then the expansion of Europe into the New World simply never would have happened. Or if it did, it would have been more similar to assimilation, much like other refuges coming to the country in later centuries.

There's no evidence unicorn magic can do that or could be applied so broadly.

There are other shortfalls for the the New World, most particularly the lack of domesticated work animals. The Americas have only one native that can be used to haul goods in the llama, which is just not as good as the wide variety of creatures available to the Old World. You find a lot of native civilizations that tend to be self-contained. Its broadly speculated this is why broad trade networks never developed despite being over a thousand years old across the ocean. With consequences for tech development across the board

Now a forewarned strong centralized power could arguably compensate for this by say stealing European tech and such, but that starts to get really questionable as to how it would work out. My guess would be you'd end up with something like an Ethiopia writ large. Never conquered in particular, but not stopping the broader movement. And that's a best case scenario

Given this would rewrite history some fairly drastic ways, but its dubious whether Luna leading the Aztecs could stop say English colonization of the eastern seaboard. And without an outside source of population in European migrants would there ever be the strength to expand.


Well here's my $.02. Nightmare Moon seems more than enough to "take care of" Columbus' measly three ships. If Columbus doesn't return, then everybody thinks he failed and no one would want to mount another massive journey west for quite some while. Ships would turn up in the Americas, I imagine, but not in large enough quantities to trouble Nightmare Moon. My guess, though, is that the ships would still carry the plague. The Americas would go through a similar loss of population, but since it's not coupled with a military invasion, I don't think it would be quite so brutal. By the time Europe gets curious as to why all their ships going west have never returned, my guess is that the Americans would have developed something of an immunity to the diseases. Or, more of an immunity.

Even a magical pony princess would have a hard time projecting power across the whole continent and associated islands. Europe was ripe for exploration at the time. Everybody with even half an education has always known the Earth was spherical, so it only follows people would try sailing West to reach the East.

And beyond the case of Colombus you'd have no prior knowledge of landing locations as it would all change and ultimately someone would land and come back. Even once the New World was understood as a separete continent it was centuries before people stopped looking for the Northwest Passage. Namely because they finally found and mapped it in all its Arctic impractical glory.


And there's a reason we do it.
One of the things in the ponythreads that bugs me, is that all those cute little ponies with their magical powers, are overestimated winners.
Seriously, I don't deny that they possess some amazing abilities, but we should also evaluate what their typical enemies are.
I recall one episode where the ponies were fighting a huge hydra, which repeatedly stumbled on its own heads. Or when a chargin bisons' herd was significantly halted by some thrown pies.

On the other hand ponies exercise complete control over their environment and exceptional cases have for example lifted a kaijuu scale monster with a single horn.

It's rather a versus thread standard to ignore sillier or less successful instances. And its not like the ponies quite lost to their less impressive foes.

(Also you are wrong on the hydra it was lured into stumbling over itself once and only once, by the actions of a pony. Stupid of it sure but not as you are suggesting)

[Lord Raziere]

Luna from Exalted?

She brings her Lunars with her. 300 Lunars start being awesome, and conquer the world using the Aztecs. Then they go insane and start making Beastmen.

[Yora]

The main issue would always have to be to prevent pandemics of smallpox, plague, and leprosy. If you can do that, you have 10 to 20 times as many people to act as a counterforce against european settlers, who will arrive in a basically uninhabited world.

[Killer Angel]

(Also you are wrong on the hydra it was lured into stumbling over itself once and only once, by the actions of a pony. Stupid of it sure but not as you are suggesting)

Ah, could be, my daughters were watching it and I was paying attention only marginally. My memory apparently failed me, I stand corrected. :smallwink:

[SoC175]

Well, as Soras Teva Gee pointed out, the reason the native population of the Americas fell wasn't due to some lack of civilization and military. It was due to a plague that wiped out most of the population. So basically, if this pony can stop a plague, then the expansion of Europe into the New World simply never would have happened. Or if it did, it would have been more similar to assimilation, much like other refuges coming to the country in later centuries.I disagree here. It would have been slower and with much more casualties during harder battles, but the technical advantage was just too huge.

Also there would be a lot of divide and conquer, which is also what killed the Aztecs. Technological advantages or not, Cortez was still way too outnumbered.

Luckily the Aztec empire was build on enslaving all neighbors and Cortez could raise a couple of ten-thousand native troops longing for the change to finally defeat the evil Aztec that have been oppressing them for so long (well, they couldn't know that they were just trading their oppressors)