Battlemage Build Help

[zeboss]

I'm attempting to make a battle mage build similar to that of the battle mage in Skyrim, which is to say a character that has plate armor, a one handed weapon, possibly a shield, and some blasting and support spells, so if anyone has any ideas for a build that would be nice, you can use any amount of multiclassing.

[Snowbluff]

Sorcadin.

Swiftblade.

Spellsword.

Duskblade.

Take your pick.

[zeboss]

Cool, currently i'm looking at a build that is
fighter2/battle sorcerer3/ spellsword1/ abjurant champion4/ spellsword4/ eldritch knight 5

[Dusk Eclipse]

Looses to many spellcasting levels, the gold standard for Battlemage or Gish as they are known in D&D community is having access to at least BAB 16 and able to cast level 9 spells, though there are some builds that sacrifice spellcasting power for more martial power or viceversa.

The standard sorcadin is one of the most elegant and simple build for gishes I 've seen and it seems to be something like what you want, it goes something like this

Paladin 2 (Weapon and Armour proficiencies + Divine Grace for Cha synergy)
Sorcerer 4 Spellcasting
Spellblade 1 easy BAB + spellcasting
Abjurant Champion 5, Best gish prestige class bar none.
Sacred Exorcist 8, good cha synergy and provides enough bab to reach the 4th itterative attack.

[zeboss]

Looses to many spellcasting levels, the gold standard for Battlemage or Gish as they are known in D&D community is having access to at least BAB 16 and able to cast level 9 spells, though there are some builds that sacrifice spellcasting power for more martial power or viceversa.

The standard sorcadin is one of the most elegant and simple build for gishes I 've seen and it seems to be something like what you want, it goes something like this

Paladin 2 (Weapon and Armour proficiencies + Divine Grace for Cha synergy)
Sorcerer 4 Spellcasting
Spellblade 1 easy BAB + spellcasting
Abjurant Champion 5, Best gish prestige class bar none.
Sacred Exorcist 8, good cha synergy and provides enough bab to reach the 4th itterative attack.

Alright thanks for the advice, are there any specific spells that every gish should have?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well there are several spells that really help a gish; but must have... maybe Wraithstrike (every attack is a touch attack for 1 round), Bite of the wereX incredible stat bonus and some bonus feats for the duration), heroics (bonus fighter feat for the duration), Polymorph and the like are incredibly awesome though extremely high on the power scale so it might not be correct for your game).

[Azoth]

Alot of mele gishes go for self buffs with a few damage dealers and utility to compliment their smackdown. Usually, you are bit MAD and either sacrifice your smackdown or save DCs. If you have too low of save DCs controll spells are worthles as are SOL or SOD. So think of useful spells to help you get in place to beat someone stupid.

[Snowbluff]

Abjurant Champion 5, Best gish prestige class bar none.


Really? Better than Swiift Blade? Who has extra actions and can function in AMF and through dispelling? :smallannoyed:

[maysarahs]

Really? Better than Swiift Blade? Who has extra actions and can function in AMF and through dispelling? :smallannoyed:

I believe the consensus is full BAB + full casting sets the precedent that if you want to be a gish this is the best way to get there. Technically taking Swiftblade10 disqualifies you from the title of gish (you lose 4 levels of spellcasting, which means you don't get 9ths). Swiftblade is an amazing prestige class, with good (and flavorful) abilities, but Abjurant Champion gives everything and loses nothing. For that reason one can argue that it is the best gish prestige class

[Snowbluff]

I believe the consensus is full BAB + full casting sets the precedent that if you want to be a gish this is the best way to get there. Technically taking Swiftblade10 disqualifies you from the title of gish (you lose 4 levels of spellcasting, which means you don't get 9ths). Swiftblade is an amazing prestige class, with good (and flavorful) abilities, but Abjurant Champion gives everything and loses nothing. For that reason one can argue that it is the best gish prestige class

Wizard6/Swiftblade9. If you want to have Time Stop instead of Shapechange, Wizard6/Swiftblade10. Any questions?

Abj Champ is awesome, but Swiftblade is nothing short of remarkable when used correctly.

[Urpriest]

Wizard6/Swiftblade9. If you want to have Time Stop instead of Shapechange, Wizard6/Swiftblade10. Any questions?

Abj Champ is awesome, but Swiftblade is nothing short of remarkable when used correctly.

Wiz 6/Swiftblade 9 seems to be missing five levels. I wonder what PrC they're going to be?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cool, currently i'm looking at a build that is
fighter2/battle sorcerer3/ spellsword1/ abjurant champion4/ spellsword4/ eldritch knight 5

Paladin 2/ Battle Sorcerer 3 doesn't meet the spellcasting prerequisite for Spellsword, you need at least Sorcerer 4. That means you're better off going with standard Sorcerer over Battle Sorcerer, because casting in light armor isn't worth sacrificing so much of your spellcasting. With Paladin you're going to be good aligned anyway, so spend a feat on Arcane Preparation to be able to cast (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED, it gives you visible breastplate or full plate made from sunlight for its duration and it otherwise works like Mage Armor. The standard Sorcadin build goes Paladin 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8, which leaves you with 18/20 spellcasting and 16/20 BAB.

If you want to actually wear heavy armor, the Runesmith prestige class in Races of Stone has what you're looking for. It's not exactly suitable for a gish, but it could work out under the right circumstances. To have all five levels you'll need to use the Fractional BAB variant found in UA on page 73. The build would need to go something like Fighter 2/ Wizard 3/ Runesmith 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Runesmith 4/ Eldritch Knight 4. That will get 17/20 Wizard casting and 16/20 BAB, since a gish build that doesn't get 9th level spells and four attacks/round pre-epic is nothing short of a travesty.



For a Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) build, it really depends on what you're comparing it to. A Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 is definitely a suitable gish and a strong character, but let's compare it to another Wizard-based gish: Human or Elf Paragon 1/ Wizard 2/ Crusader or Fighter 1/ Human or Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 4*/ Eldritch Knight 4. *Incantatrix can be reduced to three for a single level of Paragnostic Apostle if using fractional BAB. That gets Metamagic Effect and Cooperative Metamagic for Persistent buffs, on top of 17/20 spellcasting and 16/20 BAB. I'll take a build that can squeeze in Incantatrix over a Swiftblade gish any day of the week, especially considering Arcane Spellsurge comes online at the same level as Swiftblade gets its extra action/round.

For a Sorcerer-based Swiftblade, you could go Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Spellhoarding to taste, (Stalwart) Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade X/ Abjurant Champion Y/ Incantatrix Z. That gets 19/20 spellcasting and at least 16/20 BAB, and casts as a Wizard if using Spellhoarding. You can even obtain Swift Haste as a spell known with Spellhoarding, to Persist it every day via Incantatrix.

Finally, you could even make something like Warblade 1/ (Idiot) Crusader 1/ Paladin 2/ Duskblade 2/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Swiftblade 10, though your Time Stop effect would be limited to one round, or two with Versatile Spellcaster. You could really start the build with any combination of six full BAB class levels, as long as you can qualify for everything on time. I'd probably still rather go Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Dragon Disciple 4 over using Swiftblade anyway.

[zeboss]

So i think i'm gonna go with the basic sorcadin build, but i have another question, how can you make it seem realistic that a paladin becomes a sorcerer and so on, it doesn't have to be a great explanation for my group but it has to at least make sense.

[Jeff the Green]

Nobody's suggested Cleric 20? :smallconfused:

Edit: To expand on this, clerics natively get heavy armor, shields, a decent array of weapons, and a good choice of self-buffs, buffs for the party, and blasting spells. The only thing that makes them not as good as wizards and sorcerers at blasting is the lack of metamagic mitigators.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wiz 6/Swiftblade 9 seems to be missing five levels. I wonder what PrC they're going to be?

I see what you did there. :smallamused:

[Fable Wright]

So i think i'm gonna go with the basic sorcadin build, but i have another question, how can you make it seem realistic that a paladin becomes a sorcerer and so on, it doesn't have to be a great explanation for my group but it has to at least make sense.

A paladin who saw that martial strength is not enough to protect the innocent? That one fighter can only save the few nearby him by himself, but with spellcasting can protect hundreds by himself? Maybe he saw an altruistic sorcerer raise walls of stone in a pitched battle to save the innocent, or a mage containing a threat long enough for the more martial oriented paladins to arrive to contain it. Inspired by their example, the paladin strove to learn to weave spells like they did, blending martial strength with arcane might to become the warrior he is.

Re: Swiftblade and Abjurant Champion: Swiftblade is a bit of an oddball when it comes to gishing. It is the one class with 6/10 spellcasting progression that is worth taking for spellcasters. This also prevents the Swiftblade from getting 9th level spells. However, its class features more than make up for the 9th level spells in some scenarios- An extra standard action, freedom of movement, 50% miss chance and Haste in an antimagic field is fairly powerful, and the capstone ability (Which is the only thing preventing you from 9th level spells by level 20) essentially gives you the ability to cast quickened Time Stop effects from 6th level spell slots. Combined with the Perpetual Options ability, you are essentially getting 2 rounds of a normal spellcaster's time in a Time Stop from a 6th level spell slot, plus the regular round that you didn't lose since you cast the spell as a Swift action. And for each spell level higher than that you blow on the haste effect, you get another round, AKA 2 standard actions. Much more powerful than many 9th level spells, which you can still get scrolls of. Comparing it to, say, a Wizard 6/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 4, it still holds its ground as a gish, and in fact could kill the Knight Phantom, or just about any spellcaster or melee character, in direct confrontation.

Abjurant Champion is the Gold Standard for Gish classes because it is in any Gish build that there is. It fully progresses spellcasting and has full BAB, and even has relevant abilities, such as free quickened abjuration spells, increased AC bonus from Shield, and an ability that potentially grants a bonus to caster level. Swiftblade, while a powerful build, is not suited for every Gish build, and so can't be the gold standard.

[Axinian]

So i think i'm gonna go with the basic sorcadin build, but i have another question, how can you make it seem realistic that a paladin becomes a sorcerer and so on, it doesn't have to be a great explanation for my group but it has to at least make sense.

There are plenty of ways:

1) Sorcerous talent was always dormant within him, and the touch of his deity's grace awakened his powers.

2) As a reward for piety, he was granted some arcane powers, which he chooses to expand upon.

3) The character wishes to be a powerful champion of good, but finds the options that spellcasting provides to be more to his liking than warrior-type stuff. He studies arcane magic to efficiently supplement his martial prowess.

4) You refluff his spellcasting as coming directly from his god, but the spells remain mechanically arcane.

5) Depending on whether you take sorc or paladin first, he starts out as a sorcerer, but sees the light and becomes a champion of good, the paladin levels representing his training in the ways of his deity.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So i think i'm gonna go with the basic sorcadin build, but i have another question, how can you make it seem realistic that a paladin becomes a sorcerer and so on, it doesn't have to be a great explanation for my group but it has to at least make sense.

Let's Assume he is a Paladin of Bahamut (God of good aligned Dragons), during his service, he discovered he had a spark of magical potential and in an attempt to emulate his patron deity and his creatures, he starts to develop his innate arcane magic (starts taking sorc levels) while searching for ways to blend it with his swordfighting (Spellsword), seeing that his magic can protect him even better than his armour he decides to focus more on using spells to protect himself while keeping a fighting edge (Abjurant Champion)...

How about that?

@Snowbluff: Sorry for taking so long to answer; but yes I believe that Abjurant champion is a better gish class than Swiftblade, at least in my opinion.

Firstly because it is 5/5 Casting and BAB which already gives it an edge over the 6/10 spellscasting progression of Swiftblade.

While Swiftblade class features are awesome, being able to keep Haste up in an AMF doesn't means than you can function in it, even then most of your buffs will be suppressed along with your magic items, so it would be in your best interest to leave the field ASAP. Extra action is the playground of Casters and while I have to give the Swiftblade the edge, Abjurant champions can play that game too with spells like Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge, quickened spells and naturally swift action spells. Yes I know the swiftblade has access to those spells too; but probably later than the AC due the lost spellcasting levels loredrake Spellhoarding Kobolds notwithstanding and Abjurant champions also have their own action economy buster built in the class chassis (Obviously not as nice as the extra standard action; but nevertheless quite useful)

I agree that swiftblade has some awesome class abilities; but even the ability to have Time Stop at ECL 16 isn't a given compared to 9th level spells, at least IMO. And sadly without a lot of high-op they are mutually exclusive.

[Snowbluff]

Wiz 6/Swiftblade 9 seems to be missing five levels. I wonder what PrC they're going to be?

Abjurant Champion, Spellsword1 or Sacred Exo. Depends on your build. Whether or not you take the Abj Champ is beside the point, as I just listed alternatives. My point was Swiftblade > Abj Champ, but the Champ is still the Champ... of filler.

@Dusk Eclipse, it is very good, but I am much more interested in what the Swiftblade has to offer us in class features. Going all the way to 10 is not the best option, even in my opinion, without extremely high OP, as you said.

Sure, AMF is bad, but an Abjurant Champ or regular Fighter would be with out miss chances and Freedom of Movement while inside/leaving the Field, which is where this matters most. (FYI, I am not sure if you knew this, but Swiftblade does get a lot of the better defensive spells as EX)

Swiftblade also can play all of these key buffs as a free action, which is while casting a spell inherently made of awesome.

Swiftblades are also built for Rocket Tag. While losing so many CL on is asking for trouble, your casting gets a huge buff with your primary stat to initiative and the extra Standard can let you throw out a lot of spells early one.

As for level 10, it comes down to whether or not you want Shapechange, a spell that Gishes take even though it makes all of the effort of balancing Cl and BaB a waste of time, or Time Stop, which is handy for buffs but not much else.

That being said, I'm saying I'd take SB over the Champ. It is a valid choice, by every meaning of the phrase.

On a side note, if you don't end of taking Paladin for the saves, what does starting as a Transmuter Focused Wizard instead sound like? Most of the good Gish spells are Transmutations anyway, and an equivalent Sorc won't be using more than a spell or two in each slot regardless, making spontaneous casting irrelevant. :smallconfused:

[Fable Wright]

Abjurant Champion, Spellsword1 or Sacred Exo. Depends on your build. Whether or not you take the Abj Champ is beside the point, as I just listed alternatives. My point was Swiftblade > Abj Champ, but the Champ is still the Champ... of filler.


The problem here is that you are trying to compare apples to oranges. First off, any decent Gish build would take Abjurant Champion over the strictly wrse Spellsword/Wizard or the unsynergistic Sacred Exorcist. Second off, you are trying to compare a 10 level prestige class to a 5 level prestige class. Ten level prestige classes define what a character is- you could compare Eldritch Knight to Swiftblade, or Knight Phantom to Jade Phoenix Mage, but comparing any of them to Abjurant Champion is comparing them to something different altogether. Five level prestige classes are all about small bonuses to help define what a character can do, but 10 level prestige classes like Swiftblade, Knight Phantom, or Jade Phoenix Mage define what a character is. Comparing the two is comparing Apples to Oranges. Each one is a fruit (like Abjurant Champion and Swiftblade are Prestige Classes), but that's where the similarities end, and you can't subjectively call one better than the other. The reason Abjurant Champion gets the title of Gold Standard is because it is the best at what it does- any Gish build that can qualify would be a fool not to take it. Swiftblade is not the Gold Standard, because an argument can be made on taking another one of the 10 level Gish classes over it. One is not better than the other. They're different.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Bahamut is the ultimate Sorcadin diety. Dragons tend to have Sorcerer casting, and draconic heritage is the most commonly cited source of Sorcerer abilities in mortal races, and Bahamut is a LG deity who often sponsors Paladins. Being a Paladin/Sorcerer devoted to Bahamut is about as vanilla as a Cleric/Barbarian who worships Kord.

The Platinum Father also has the benefit of being relatively setting transparent. He exists in both FR and Greyhawk and Dragonlance as pretty much the same dude. The only setting he doesn't really fit into is Eberron which has enough draconic mojo to support a whole metric gnome-ton of dragony flavor for any and every class.

[Snowbluff]

Swiftblade is not the Gold Standard, because an argument can be made on taking another one of the 10 level Gish classes over it. One is not better than the other. They're different.

Y-you would have someone take JPM over Swiftblade? Is there an honestly more functional 10 level Gish class available over SB? :smallconfused:

I don't see where we are disagreeing. I like SB because it has an impact on the built, where Abj Champ's impact is minimal, hence my labeling it as 'filler'.

[Fable Wright]

Y-you would have someone take JPM over Swiftblade? Is there an honestly more functional 10 level Gish class available over SB? :smallconfused:

I don't see where we are disagreeing. I like SB because it has an impact on the built, where Abj Champ's impact is minimal, hence my labeling it as 'filler'.

Personally, I like Swiftblades more as a class. However, a lot of people like Maneuvers and the ToB system in general, and so a prestige class that grants nice benefits for using spellcasting and maneuvers is attractive. The question is not of functionality- Jade Phoenix Mages, Sorcadins, Swiftblades, and Knight Phantoms are all highly functioning Gishes. However, they specialize in different things, that different people find fun. Swiftblades rule combat, period. They can crowd control, buff allies, and have good defensive options, and have some of the most powerful offensive abilities in the game, including Perpetual Options, bonus damage from just moving, and Wraithstrike, and have the ability to take out about any other build in single combat. However, they have slower spellcasting progression, and don't have as many powerful options as some of faster progression classes do, and so give up flexibility for the power they get. Knight Phantoms get mobility and eventually the ability to Wraithstrike as a free action. Jade Phoenix Mages have more options in combat, if less attacks than Swiftblades normally get. Instead of using their move action to get over to an opponent and then use one attack, they can move and use a Mountain Hammer, and use Dancing Mongoose to get more attacks to simulate pounce, especially against low-armor foes. Against higher armored foes, they can use Nightmare Blades and Time Stands Still in addition to their spellcasting options like Wraithstrike, plus the ability to blow a 0th level spell slot as a free action for a +4 bonus to hit. Knight Phantoms basically have full spell progression and the ability to call the fastest mount in existence almost at will. Each has their pros and cons. They're all functional. It's mostly a matter of personal opinion on what you want to do more as a caster.

My disagreement with your opinion on the Abjurant Champion front is that you refer to it as inferior to Swiftblade. It is filler, as you put it, because you can't build around it. Because of this, you call it inferior. No one is claiming that Abjurant Champion by itself makes the best Gish in the world. It just accentuates every Gish build ever, because it is filler. It fits in, you don't lose progression for including it, and it gives powerful abilities. You can't really call a 10-level prestige class better than it, because they do different things. Would you rather take Knight Phantom after 9-10 levels of Swiftblade? Or Abjurant Champion? After taking 10 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage, would you rather take 5 levels of Swiftblade or Abjurant Champion? In each case, Abjurant Champion is the clear victor. Each of the other classes only gives you powerful abilities after taking it for a while, while Abjurant Champion fits in just about anywhere. It isn't inferior to Swiftblade or any other 10 level class. It's different, and because it fits in every build, it's widely regarded as better.