Fallen Paladin CR

[urbanwolf]

how would you as a DM place a fallen Paladin at for CR

In my mind the best idea is to go class levels -1 because a fallen Paladin is basically a Warrior but maybe CR -2 because of just how sub-optimal the feats would be

for the example I am using a 13th level paladin that has helped my players out a few times, but he just lost his powers and blames them. So fight to the death is the only choice

[Answerer]

A fallen paladin is incapable of being any kind of a significant threat to competent heroes above about level 6.

[legomaster00156]

Uh... fight to the death is the only choice? That's not Lawful Good. That's not even Lawful Stupid. That's just plain stupid.

[Starbuck_II]

how would you as a DM place a fallen Paladin at for CR

In my mind the best idea is to go class levels -1 because a fallen Paladin is basically a Warrior but maybe CR -2 because of just how sub-optimal the feats would be

for the example I am using a 13th level paladin that has helped my players out a few times, but he just lost his powers and blames them. So fight to the death is the only choice

Wait, why are the feats suboptimal, was the pallys feats also suboptimal?
Unless the feats required he was a Paladin, he should have same feats useable.

I would say CR -1 same as human Warrior 13 is CR 12.

[Hawk7915]

Napkin-mathing it with VorpalTribble's CR calculator, I'd say CR 6, maybe 7 if he's got a significant hoard of magic items. This looks about right to me; comparing him to a Tendriculous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tendriculos.htm) he will most likely boast better attack accuracy and AC, slightly better saving throws, and similar HP, but will have none of the Tendriculous's special attacks or regeneration.

Since he has class levels, however, that CR can vary wildly. If his feat selection was, say, Power Attack -> Improved Bull Rush -> Shocktrooper -> Leap Attack, he is a very deadly enemy (although admittedly a one-trick pony). If instead his feat choices are, like, Alertness, Extra Turning, Battle Blessing, Extra Smiting, Awesome Smite, he's...worse than an equal-leveled warrior. Like the poster above me said, no matter what his feats are he's still in significant danger of being easily 1-2 shot by a party of 6th+ level, and even if well built and lucky on initiative will probably only manage to mangle one or two party members before he goes down.

[urbanwolf]

Uh... fight to the death is the only choice? That's not Lawful Good. That's not even Lawful Stupid. That's just plain stupid.

Fight to the death is the only choice

The fallen Paladin sees the players as responsible for his fall
and the payers only really know how to fight to the death it is actually kinda sad
the one time they tried to take something alive it almost killed them all, there was two monsters and they wanted to catch one to sell they knocked one out right away and as it slowly bled to death they punched the other one into unconscious, and not just the fighter even the wizard was in there punching away

[Man on Fire]

Give him levels in fighter. Gods didn't make him forget how to swing his sword.

[KillianHawkeye]

Give him levels in fighter. Gods didn't make him forget how to swing his sword.

Swinging his sword is represented by his BAB, which is the same as an equal level Fighter's would be. But while the Fighter was busy learning as many cool combat tricks as he could, the Paladin was developing his divine powers, powers which he has since lost. If a fallen Paladin could just dump his old class levels for Fighter levels, it wouldn't really be much of a punishment.

[Hawk7915]

Fight to the death is the only choice

The fallen Paladin sees the players as responsible for his fall
and the payers only really know how to fight to the death it is actually kinda sad
the one time they tried to take something alive it almost killed them all, there was two monsters and they wanted to catch one to sell they knocked one out right away and as it slowly bled to death they punched the other one into unconscious, and not just the fighter even the wizard was in there punching away

I think the quieter evil is scarier, though. If he blindly charges the party and they are anything higher than level 5, he's going to be lucky to knock someone to negative before they obliterate him, take his gear, and laugh. Be clever about him. Have him make a deal with fiends to "reclaim his power" (become a Blackguard) if he slaughters these brutes who caused him to lose his grace (he'll have some demonic back-up, however). Have him team up with a crime lord to put the party into some sort of horrible death-trap when they get back to town. Have him play their friend and ally for a bit longer, and then ambush them when they are sleeping, unarmed, unarmored, and unaware. Have him play smart and brutalize spellcasters first before dueling the fighter. Have him steal their items, poison their food. Have him kidnap and torment the party's friends, love interests, and families, or hold villagers hostage. Use that so that he can manipulate the party into destroying his old temple (or an evil temple, so he can both "rid the world of these false heroes" and do something to regain his Gods grace), to further his vengeance.

This guy as a stand-alone, knock-down drag out encounter is going to be boring as sin. You have an opportunity to make a memorable villain; a noble ally that slowly, sickeningly crumbles into a mortal fiend and the greatest villain the party has faced.

[urbanwolf]

Uh... fight to the death is the only choice? That's not Lawful Good. That's not even Lawful Stupid. That's just plain stupid.

Fight to the death is the only choice

The fallen Paladin sees the players as responsible for his fall
and the payers only really know how to fight to the death it is actually kinda sad
the one time they tried to take something alive it almost killed them all, there was two monsters and they wanted to catch one to sell they knocked one out right away and as it slowly bled to death they punched the other one into unconscious, and not just the fighter even the wizard was in there punching away

[Man on Fire]

Swinging his sword is represented by his BAB, which is the same as an equal level Fighter's would be. But while the Fighter was busy learning as many cool combat tricks as he could, the Paladin was developing his divine powers, powers which he has since lost. If a fallen Paladin could just dump his old class levels for Fighter levels, it wouldn't really be much of a punishment.

That's good and fine...for the PCs. He is an NPC, GM may do whatever he wants to make him a threat. He may give him levels of a monk and say that before becoming a Paladin he lived in a monstery and never used his skills before, because heavy armor.

Also, anotheir idea - he should hire some people to help him. Like, opposite party - party composed of people who will make challenge for the players. Paladin knows the party, knows how they think - why not get some help in catching them? They have advantage of numbers and power, so it's not breaking any code of honor or anything.

[Mari01]

His CR doesn't matter if he's throwing his life away. He's weak enough that no one will actually care. If he's just going to charge them and end it, don't even bother statting him up. The players are just going to see a walking treasure vault, kill it, and then start looking for the next one.

[Istari]

Depends on the group's optimization, the Paladin might be able to pose a strong threat to them. But yeah, warrior equivalent CR is probably good.

[Urpriest]

There are many examples in the fluff of Paladins who fall and become Blackguards without realizing it, and this guy is high enough level to trade Paladin for Blackguard levels. Those Blackguard levels will give him level-appropriate abilities and allow you to estimate his CR more readily. Paladin 3/Blackguard 10 is probably a decent CR 13.