3.5 help animal companion, natural bond, warbeast.

[Lost in books]

This is a question about rules that i am not clear about when it comes to animal companions. Does the following stack?
I start as a ranger and have a loyal dog by my side. When I turn lvl 4 I obviously want it as my alloted animal companion. As I train him and adventure with him I develop a take natural bond (does it increase that animal) and later as I grow in experience I learn how to train him to become a warbeast. What I see from the rules is that suddenly my dog just stops being my companion or that I can't train because even if it is not a magical change ( is only trainIng!) it kills all the work! Can someone tell me if there is a way to stack this or get a similar result without dipping into any other class? From a trainer's perspective it doesn't make sense but this is a game after all.

[Urpriest]

You can't turn a preexisting animal into a warbeast. It's an inherited template. The "training a Warbeast section" describes how a preexisting warbeast can be trained for combat to gain the Combative Mount feature.

[Lost in books]

I am not looking for a mount. But I also didn't know warbeast was a preinherited animal state. When reading I thought it was enhanced by training. I understand why a companion from wild cohort can't become an annimal companion at 4 level. So I guess my question changes to how can I get the sturdiest companion as a straight ranger (maybe one level dip on beast master) so you all understand what I am trying to do is this:

1 have a normal animal companion that can very well enter the city and loyal enough to travel underground with enough agility to overcome medium obstacles.
2 has a decent ac and hit die progression where he can survive a first hit from normal minions.
3 doesn't increase to size large.
4 maybe able to learn a feat (if there are any good animal companion feats let me know)

The tactics I envision is to keep my companion at my side and he will provide advance warning on anyone sneaking or invisible. I will be using bow so I will not try to be having us in the middle of melee. But if someone comes close enough my companion will try to give me a bonus with flanking because I need it since I am range and not good at close combat. In addition IF my animal companion is able then the trip attack could be my life savior if he connects. It sucks that our druid's companion is so much more powerful and he barely uses him in any meaningful tactical way and mostly is a summon galore and as a ranger who is constantly working with my companion and does use the sinergy of it is so weak. Any help with getting feats and or specific animal training that improves an animal companion will be super helpful.

By the way the flavor for my ranger is kind of a loner with a loyal companion that works best together. I don't send him to combat alone and 95% time is within 5 feet to share spells. I prefer the guard dog as it has better ac than wolf and still keeps a trip attack.

[Callyn]

You can't turn a preexisting animal into a warbeast. It's an inherited template. The "training a Warbeast section" describes how a preexisting warbeast can be trained for combat to gain the Combative Mount feature.

Can you cite that? Because I was just looking at the template and it seems to say that you can train an animal into a warbeast with a DC 20+HD Handle Animal check.

That being said, I don't think that you can add a template to an animal companion. The ability says that an animal companion is completely typical for its kind except for the changes listed in the ability.

[Urpriest]

Can you cite that? Because I was just looking at the template and it seems to say that you can train an animal into a warbeast with a DC 20+HD Handle Animal check.


Read that section again. It says you can train a warbeast. Nowhere does it say it trains an animal into a warbeast. It isn't consistent with the idea that it is where warbeasts come from because it says you can't train a vermin, and because it explicitly says that it grants the Combative Mount feature, and warbeasts don't always have that feature. It is consistent with the statement earlier in the description that the creature is trained as the base creature (rather than, say, as a domesticated creature) since the DCs are exactly those present in 3.0 for training the base creature. The idea that the training section is for turning a preexisting animal into a warbeast is a persistent myth, not something you can actually conclude by reading the template.

[Lost in books]

I understand the pre-requisite for the animal companion to be a typical animal to become the animal companion. My point is that once the animal meets the requisite and the bond is established there is nowhere in there that says it can't be improved further. That is why it makes sense that a wild cohort can't become animal companion. But on the description for warbeast it doesn't state that an animal looses any prior affiliation or enhancement I.e. magebred. My interpretation of the definition of animal companion is that it remains an animal, not like in prior versions that said it turned into a magical beast. So it is like putting water in a bottle and the bottle in a box. Water-animal, bottle-companion, box-warbeast. So it works one way but not in any other combination due to the RAW Pre-requisite. Finally warbeast doesn't have progression, it is a training enhancement that gives the animal the boost. Think of it as a civilian, becomes a Soldier, then gets special training to be X, but it is still a soldier just with improve skill sets.

[Lost in books]

You answered while I was typing. Thanks for info but I am still confused because I recall something about warhorse not able to take it and you saying it has to be a warbeast to be trained as warbeast just blew my mind away. Once I am in front of the book I will read and read again about it to see if I can understand what you mean. I think is my wishful thinking because it looks like the rules are written in a way that contradicts the "spirit" of what I think they meant. Thank you for the insight!

[Urpriest]

You answered while I was typing. Thanks for info but I am still confused because I recall something about warhorse not able to take it

This is indeed true. Animals like the warhorse are already considered to have a non-template version of warbeast, so they can't be a warbeast on top of that.

[Solaris]

This is a question about rules that i am not clear about when it comes to animal companions. Does the following stack?
I start as a ranger and have a loyal dog by my side. When I turn lvl 4 I obviously want it as my alloted animal companion. As I train him and adventure with him I develop a take natural bond (does it increase that animal) and later as I grow in experience I learn how to train him to become a warbeast. What I see from the rules is that suddenly my dog just stops being my companion or that I can't train because even if it is not a magical change ( is only trainIng!) it kills all the work! Can someone tell me if there is a way to stack this or get a similar result without dipping into any other class? From a trainer's perspective it doesn't make sense but this is a game after all.

Ask your DM to house-rule it in. Personally, I'd let it in as a feat the ranger took, or by reducing the ranger's effective druid level.

[Lost in books]

Thanks for the help. I am still a bit shaky on the full understanding of the process, but I better try to dig old threads as this questions have been answered a hundred times over most likely. When i talked to my DM a new question arose and now i have to ask. Is RAW and RAI compiled somewhere within the offcial WoTC site? I trust the forums because of the level of experience here, so i appreciate the discusions. But IMHO a lot of this is based on english major literature context because reading the lines about vermin on warbeast I come with the following interpretation:

Combative Mount "A vermin warbeast, being mindless and therefore untrainable, cannot have this ability."

and later "A warbeast based on vermin, being mindless, is untrainable."

I call this the "Rules of inclusion, specification, and exception."

This is my interpretation:

A vermin can be reared to be a warbeast. (if not, why even include it in the list?) This follows the rule of inclusion.

A vermin is untrainable because it is mindless. So the fact of a vermin not being trainable is a factor of it being mindless (a lack of intelligence issue) and not because of being a vermin. Otherwise the sentence in both sections should not need or have the "being mindless" part. This is an example of a rule of specification. if not then the sentence should read simply "A warbest based on vermin is untrainable."

So you can have a warbeast vermin as far as physical attributes go but without the training. Just a bigger bug than normal. But I argue that once i put a collar of +1 intelligence or use a wish spell on it or any way to give it at least one point of intelligence, it gains animal intelligence and can be trained. Because the untrainability stems from the fact of being mindless (having no intelligence score) and not from being a vermin.

Honestly i don't intend to make a huge bombardier beetle or scorpion or spider, etc. as a mount to my large orc but the rules argument between my DM and I is a great excercise on rules interpretations.

Especially after i told him that a druid can only take an animal companion at 1st level if he choose to do so. At 4th+ level then you can be qualified to select one from the alternate list if your companion is released or dies. If he didn't take it at 1st he could never have a companion as the book is specific on when you may take it, and you may only "replace" it if it is slain or you release it. You can't replace something you never had. We are still debating this still :P

What is your ruling as per RAW on the warbeast vermin and the attainability of animal companions if a druid doesn't take one at 1st level?

[Urpriest]

You can't give a +2 Int item to a vermin to increase their Int. Vermin have no Int score, and NAN+2=NAN.

That's an interesting observation about Druids. That said, I can't think of a reason why a first level Druid wouldn't choose an animal companion, so it would never come up.