Physical Effects of True Resurrection?

[ChimingCopper]

Sooooo.

I'm curious about what happens to any scars/tattoos/modifications a character may have if he dies and undergoes true resurrection. (Mostly for RP purposes.)

As per Pathfinder RAW:
True Resurrection
School conjuration (healing); Level cleric 9
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Components V, S, M, DF (diamond worth 25,000 gp)
This spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level. This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed, provided that you unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased's time and place of birth or death is the most common method).
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no negative levels (or Constitution points) and all of the prepared spells possessed by the creature when it died.
You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can't resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
Even true resurrection can't restore to life a creature who has died of old age.

In our PF game, we have plans for my cleric to die, body irretrievable, helping his paladin best friend rescue his love interest. Paladin bestie is then planning on starting an epic quest to go find/buy a diamond to have the cleric raised. The cleric has a remarkable set of scars on his back that he spent a bit of time coming to terms with from an event earlier in the adventure, and may have issues resurface if they're suddenly gone because he's got basically a brand-new body. Or is this something ruled on a DM by DM basis?

[World]

Usually, those little details can be reasonably messed up with the DM. As far as i know isn't mentioned in the rules.

[Glimbur]

I would have the new body be however they picture themselves to be; those scars are important to who he is so they would be on the new body. This can lead to a number of questions and exploits, which are best solved with a rolled up newspaper.

[Raimun]

Ok, so a body is destroyed completely and the spell creates a body from a scratch for the soul to inhabit. There's basically two ways how this might go.

1) "DNA-model". The new body is a clone of the original body (with the original consciousness). That would mean it's cloned from the DNA of the original body, so tattoos and scars wouldn't be present.

2) "Other model". The spell restores the original body as it was the last time alive and restores it to full health.

Since the spell doesn't need any physical material of the original body, ie. DNA, I'd go with 2). It is the original body, even if it doesn't make sense. Also, there's already a spell called Clone which does 1) but with preparation required.

[JoshuaZ]

Ok, so a body is destroyed completely and the spell creates a body from a scratch for the soul to inhabit. There's basically two ways how this might go.

1) "DNA-model". The new body is a clone of the original body (with the original consciousness). That would mean it's cloned from the DNA of the original body, so tattoos and scars wouldn't be present.

2) "Other model". The spell restores the original body as it was the last time alive and restores it to full health.

Since the spell doesn't need any physical material of the original body, ie. DNA, I'd go with 2). It is the original body, even if it doesn't make sense. Also, there's already a spell called Clone which does 1) but with preparation required.

I'm not sure this distinction makes sense in context. In a pseudo-medieval setting, notions of DNA or even notions of phenotype v. genotype wouldn't really exist. A clear notion of how phenotype and genotype work didn't really show up until the 1880s or so in real life. So the DNA-model would be weird, and having two spells each that does one or the other would be very weird. This is made more severe by the fact that some official material touches on Lamarckian evolution and similar models.

[Invader]

I'd say they'd still be present on a true resurrection. The PC keeps all abilities, memories, etc so I'd imagine the body that is reformed comes from the how the PC'd remembered himself/herself from when they died.

[Mnemnosyne]

My initial reaction would be to say no, scars would be gone, you appear with your body in perfect condition. Missing limbs, scars, etc, even if you've lived with them for years, would be repaired.

The trick, when considering RAW, is feats like Willing Deformity. RAW, you'd still have that feat, and therefore you'd still have the deformity. So it can be argued that True Resurrection brings you back exactly as you were at the moment of death, minus hit point damage.

[kardar233]

I would have the new body be however they picture themselves to be; those scars are important to who he is so they would be on the new body. This can lead to a number of questions and exploits, which are best solved with a rolled up newspaper.

I like this. The fluff (I believe one of the War of the Spider Queen novels) has Astral Projection working this way, so it has precedent.

[ericgrau]

It simply says that it brings the creature back. At first I assumed it said "new body" in which case I'd assume it is whole and free of marks. But "bring back" makes me think that it restores the body the way it was at full HP. Just like hair length and so on probably remains, I imagine scars and anything that is not a problematic injury would remain too. Missing limbs OTOH are certainly restored. At the very least the problems of raise dead with missing limbs and lack of a whole body imply that ressurection does not have these problems, if it isn't apparent from the fact that missing limbs would not constitute a fully restored body.

However the wording is very short and vague, so really you could fill in many different interpretations that still fit.

[panaikhan]

Sorry. When I think of true resurrection I think of Duck Dodgers and the re-integration pistol.
"Who? Where? What? Ohh... you again huh?"
I imagine the character standing just as they were before the killing blow, only at full HP and with no equipment.

[Stabbald]

I'm not sure this distinction makes sense in context. In a pseudo-medieval setting, notions of DNA or even notions of phenotype v. genotype wouldn't really exist. A clear notion of how phenotype and genotype work didn't really show up until the 1880s or so in real life. So the DNA-model would be weird, and having two spells each that does one or the other would be very weird. This is made more severe by the fact that some official material touches on Lamarckian evolution and similar models.

That logic doesn't hold. The fact that the people involved don't understand HOW something works is irrelevant. They don't need to know about DNA for it to exist.


Or is this something ruled on a DM by DM basis?

It's the DM's call, but it's somewhat obvious to me that the person is recreated as an exact copy as he/she was just prior to death. The reason being is simple... Age!

If there was virtually any other model involved then surely the body recreated would be in it's physical prime regardless of the age of the creature to begin with.

[Ernir]

A new body I say. Nearly bald, pink/pasty complexion, and covered in vernix! \o/

No? :smallfrown:

[JoshuaZ]

That logic doesn't hold. The fact that the people involved don't understand HOW something works is irrelevant. They don't need to know about DNA for it to exist.



Sure, but spells and cosmology in D&D often reflect a world where pseudo-medieval (really more late renaissance) beliefs actually work- hence for example the ease at which wildly different species can interbreed and result in things like half-elves and half-dragons. I don't think they ever thought that hard about the biology of the setting, but the standard biology as it exists in the setting often reflects that sort of oldtime fold genetics as being actually correct.

[Ravens_cry]

You know, I just thought of a truly sinister idea of where the body comes from: An alternate time-line where you didn't die.
This you is then killed and your soul stuffed into the ready receptacle.

[JoshuaZ]

You know, I just thought of a truly sinister idea of where the body comes from: An alternate time-line where you didn't die.
This you is then killed and your soul stuffed into the ready receptacle.

Then wouldn't adventurers end up seeing in this timeline people occasionally disappear without warning as they are sucked into other timelines to serve that purpose?

But this does explain a bit why the spell is Conjuration.

[Ravens_cry]

Then wouldn't adventurers end up seeing in this timeline people occasionally disappear without warning as they are sucked into other timelines to serve that purpose?

But this does explain a bit why the spell is Conjuration.
Perhaps, but there is an infinite number of parallel universes, so the chances of them seen it happening are infinitely low.
Still, it could happen.
I smell plot hook!

[JoshuaZ]

Perhaps, but there is an infinite number of parallel universes, so the chances of them seen it happening are infinitely low.
Still, it could happen.
I smell plot hook!

Infinities are complicated. The key issue here would be how much measure is taken up by both the sink universes and source universes. Or something like that. But one needs only a very small number of disappearances to notice. And they need to take the body from a similar universe. So if for example we resurrect our wizard companion, we have to take a body from a very specific sort of universe, one where he has the same feats and skills. In fact, the most likely universe then for them to steal from would be something like a very similar universe, such as one where the exact same result occurred but just didn't manage to kill the wizard.

In the actual many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics one doesn't really have discrete separate alternate paths but rather everything is sort of smeared out. Which makes what would actually happen sort of confusing. This is also related to the Born rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_rule) so one would need to think carefully about that to get some sort of idea of how likely it would be for a universe to have stuff stolen from it (assuming that everything preserves Lebseque measurable in some sense, otherwise it might just have all necessary bodies stolen from a set of measure zero using a cardinality preserving mapping similar to the Cantor set).

How many catgirls just got killed?

[Ravens_cry]

How many catgirls just got killed?
At least enough to resurrect at least a self-sustaining breeding population.:smallbiggrin:

[deuxhero]

Good thing the cleric is male, or there would be a whole'nother bag of worms...

[Spuddles]

Good thing the cleric is male, or there would be a whole'nother bag of worms...

What in the what.

[deuxhero]

We are NOT entering that discussion. Just close the book and walk away.