Eldritch blast and meta feats

[Fooliscious]

I found a warlock I played a long time ago and saw that it had empower/maximize/quicken spell like ability. I am not sure how the feats interact with eldritch blast. You can use the feats three times per day, so that seems a lil broken for a level 12 lock(with items) to launch three maximized 12d6 touch attacks.

[Lostbutseeking]

It's not broken by a long shot they are littlemore than metamagic rods in feat form for SLA's.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yes, that is how it works.

If, at level 12, a character is doing 72 damage with their round, that is... OK, I guess? Far from broken, really, and its impact is diminished further by the fact that it's either single-target or requires a save. A level 12 Sorcerer/Wizard could maximize Fireball for roughly the same amount of damage and hit nearly everything worth mentioning, but can also apply Maximize to a wide number of tricks in their bag (or just do something else and be better). A TWF/ITWF Rogue gets +24d6 Sneak Attack damage (plus 4*weapon damage and modifiers) on four successful hits, and a Sneak Attack TWF/ITWF/GTWF Fighter gets 36d6 (plus 6*weapon damage and modifiers) on six successful hits, and can reliably get Sneak Attack conditions set up as a swift action, and SA Fighter 11/Lion Totem Barbarian 1 can do it on a charge. Moving up, Überchargers and other melee builds can do damage not easily expressed in die rolls (and sometimes not in numbers at all), many by level 12. Maximize SLA is neat, and far from harmful, but it is not game-breaking or even game-changing; it's another 2.5 damage per dice, three times per day.

[Randomguy]

He can only launch 2 of them in one round. And only if he was a hellfire warlock, since normal locks would do 6d6 maximized + 3d6. A hellfire warlock, launching 12d6 maximized + 6d6, and another one of those quickened, would only do about 170 damage on average. A charging fighter with the right feats could do more than that every single charge. Not counting his strength bonus. And that's not even mentioning wizards or sorcerers.

[Fooliscious]

I was referring more to the caster level part of the feats. It talks of halving the caster level etc. but eldritch blast doesnt really work off caster level. And 72 damage on a rogue of level 12 is a one shot(Barring good con). That seems op to me.

[Randomguy]

By your logic, all classes are overpowered except for maybe a monk, since it every class can one-shot a level 12 rogue with 10 con. Some at lower levels than others. That's why people actually have positive con scores, and why people, especially at mid levels, buy con boosting items.


Except warlocks do have a caster level (= to their class level) and eldritch blast does have a spell level (= to class level/2), but I think the latter was errated to something else, to give the warlocks a break, and make it actually possible for them to take those feats.

[Krazzman]

Standard EB is a Level 1. Invocations make it higher, depending on invocation.

[Fooliscious]

One character one shotting another char of equal level with near impossible chance to miss? Onto the point however.

Any links to that errata? Because the feats are useless if the blast does have a caster level, the reduction in damage is so extreme I'd be better off launching a regular one(although its damage isn't based off caster level, not sure how'd that work).

If that's the case, would shaping it lower that reduction since it's addingto caster level?

[Urpriest]

One character one shotting another char of equal level with near impossible chance to miss? Onto the point however.

Any links to that errata? Because the feats are useless if the blast does have a caster level, the reduction in damage is so extreme I'd be better off launching a regular one(although its damage isn't based off caster level, not sure how'd that work).

If that's the case, would shaping it lower that reduction since it's addingto caster level?

You're getting caster level mixed up with spell level.

The feats have a minimum caster level to affect SLAs of a given spell level. Pre-errata, the spell level of EB changes with caster level. After errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a), however, it is fixed to 1, only raised by blast shapes and essences.

[Krazzman]

If that's the case, would shaping it lower that reduction since it's addingto caster level?

Nope. It won't do anything. As you can reread those feats they don't change the effect or highten the spell's level or such.

Eldritch Blast is a Spell Like Ability. The feats Sudden [Metamagic] or [Metamagic] Spell Like Ability don't change anything whatsoever.

I'm playing a Warlock on level 4 atm. Invocs: See the unseen, Entropic Warding and Eldritch Spear. Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and Sudden Still (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/sudden-still--2826/).

The other Feats like Empower Spell-like Ability (http://dndtools.eu/feats/savage-species--47/empower-spell-like-ability--852/)
have the restriction of not being able to be chosen for Spell-like Abilities that are your CL-2 or higher. So you could add this to a Eldritch Blast but not to a Eldritch Blast that has been enhanced to be a CL2 ability (assuming you are level 6).

Hope this helps.

EDIT: It seems like I have been Warlock'd!

[Duke of URL]

As noted, it's not particularly powerful compared to what other characters can do at that level. Plus, remember, in order to stack all of those metas, you have to keep the ESL of the blast low, which means passing up on your better shapes or essences.

The more subtle side-effect of that is that the ESL of the blast doesn't change with all of the metas applied, which means a simple lesser globe of invulnerability makes the quickened, empowered, maximized blast completely worthless, and you've just blown 1/3 daily uses of three different feats to find that out if your opponent has it up and running.

[Tokiko Mima]

Though if you're trying to shut down a warlock, Ray Deflection is much more efficient as 4th level spells go, and higher level shapes and essences won't help in the case of this spell. You'd only want to use Globes of Invulnerability to defend against a melee warlock.

And if you're looking to use stacked Meta-SLA feats to nova with a hellfire warlock, Eldritch Glaive + a scroll/wand of Divine Power will get you much closer to one-shotting dragons, assuming that is your goal.

[Fooliscious]

I'm just trying to understand how the feats interact with eldritch blast having a caster level. I'm not quite grasping what you folks are saying, so here's a hypothetical that you can straight answer.

Lvl 12 lock, Eb does 8d6 damage. I add empower to it. Does that force the caster level down(from 12 to 10, to allow for the feat to work) so that I can cast it that way? Meaning does eldritch blast fire off as if it were a level 10 lock's blast, thus dumping the damage down but still being empowered?

And as for stacking them, I could only stack up to my caster level correct? So blast shape/effect/Meta feats couldn't equal more than 12 yes?

[Urpriest]

I'm just trying to understand how the feats interact with eldritch blast having a caster level. I'm not quite grasping what you folks are saying, so here's a hypothetical that you can straight answer.

Lvl 12 lock, Eb does 8d6 damage. I add empower to it. Does that force the caster level down(from 12 to 10, to allow for the feat to work) so that I can cast it that way? Meaning does eldritch blast fire off as if it were a level 10 lock's blast, thus dumping the damage down but still being empowered?

And as for stacking them, I could only stack up to my caster level correct? So blast shape/effect/Meta feats couldn't equal more than 12 yes?

No. The caster level does not change. Your caster level is 12. EB with no essences or shapes has spell level 1. Empower Spell-Like Ability says that in order to apply it to a first level spell-like-ability you must have caster level 6. 12 is greater than 6. Thus you can Empower your Eldritch Blast with Empower Spell-Like Ability. Your Empowered Eldritch Blast would deal 12d6 damage. This can be used three times per day.

If you also had Quicken Spell-Like Ability, you could apply it as well, since the minimum caster level to apply Quicken to a spell-like ability with spell level 1 is 10. You can use both if you want, burning a use of both feats to have a 12d6 EB cast as a swift action.

[Fooliscious]

Ok, that is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you! Friend of mine who has been playing since...well...this game WAS felt it was done differently, so I wasn't really sure myself. And I didn't know about EB being a level 1 spell. Cheers!

[Doxkid]

And 72 damage on a rogue of level 12 is a one shot(Barring good con). That seems op to me.
--
Harm+Quickened inflict light wounds
Slay Living
Plane Shift
Baleful Polymorph
Magic Jar+Suicide in your body
Phantasmal Killer
Bestow Curse+basically any other spell
Geas
Dominate Person
Disintegrate
Circle of Death
Flesh to stone
--
These are spells a cleric (and similar divine) or wizard (and similar arcane) caster would have at level 12 that would one shot your rogue. They all target your weak saves. Most of them wont miss.

The makers of this game found killing people with a mean look funny. Killing someone by hitting a target really hard (with a fireball or sword) is pretty fair compared to the other options...in just the player's handbook.

A warlock with Maximize, Empower and Quicken SLA spent 3 feats to kill your rogue. Feats he could have spent on making magical items or increasing his durability. A wizard would just smile and fire off a single Disintegrate.